Possible Petition About Person of Interest's "The Crossing" for Season 3 DVD box

By Shaol

Jan 22, 2014

//EDIT//

Please read here my full explanation. I didn't think I needed to post that as well but I was wrong, it is fair to show the complete point of view.

//EDIT//


Dearest Fandom,

It’s possible that some of you already know how much I care about Person of Interest and, in particular, about it staying coherent and in character.

There's been a particular moment, during "The Crossing", which has been quite controversial, hence I have a question for you and I’d love to know what you think:

Would you sign a petition that asks to see an alternative scene at the morgue between Reese and Carter during "The Crossing" 3x09, as an extra feature in the DVD box?

Specifically:

- John doesn't tell her that she was the one who saved him;

- the kiss doesn't happen (they share a hug instead, for example).

It's quite probable that they have more versions of that scene and it would be nice to see the one that follows the original script as additional feature in Season 3 DVD Box.

Just to be clear: I do think that Carter had a huge influence on Reese and that she was essential for his inner balance, but I believe the very first recognition should go to Finch, as John stated many times during Season 1 and 2 (1x10, 1x14, 1x16, 2x01, 2x03, 2x10, 2x13 + many other hints).

I also believe the last events give me some additional credit, because after being crushed and heartbroken, John decided to come back all the same, because he needed the job.

But that’s my opinion, what do you think, guys? Let's vote!

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  • LillyJones3 Jul 19, 2014

    People like you really make me absolutely SICK and i'm really ashamed that you call yourself a fan.

  • Mew_Mokuba Mar 13, 2014

    I don't think a petition would help. According to this article, Nolan and others didn't script it. It just happened. The actors did it on their own. And they debated for days on whether or not to keep it or to throw the scene out. Ultimately they chose to keep it in.

  • slayme3 Mar 05, 2014

    even though i'm also not a fan of that scene - it is what it is - i say leave it - sorry.

  • GreatHomerJay Jan 24, 2014

    Say what you will, but I don't think there was anything strange about the kiss or Reese telling Carter she was the one who saved him. It's a matter of perception. Yes, Finch gave him a job and a purpose in life and Reese has told him that he's greatful for that on numerous occasions. But who's to say that Carter taking an interest in him after the subway incident in the pilot wasn't the trigger that got him back into the world and enabled him to even consider Finch's offer?

    That's part of the beauty of how these characters were written and what keeps me consitently interested even when an episode isn't all that good. The fact that you never get a complete insight into their thoughts and feelings, just like you don't with anyone in real life. People can tell you how they feel and then act in a completely different way minutes later. It gives credibility to the characters of this show that they exhibit that exact behavior.

    I think Reese was in love with Carter and that he really did feel like she saved him. She was his conciense. The one who always believed that he had good in him, even in his darkest moments and didn't judge him for his past, even though, as an Army interrogator, she knew full well what people like him did for a living. And Reese knew that. He knew she was one of the only people who could see right through him and still believe in his basic goodness. If that shouldn't count for something, what should?

    The kiss was perfectly natural to me. They were in a tight spot and didn't know if they'd make it out alive and if ever there were two people who understood the meaning of the words "carpe diem", I'd suspect it was these two. They had nothing to lose at that point, so why waste time with hugging when a kiss was what they both wanted? At least they wouldn't go out wondering what it would have felt like.

  • Shaol Jan 27, 2014

    I have this strong perception of Carter as a full-time mother. Her maternal instinct was so strong towards our duo that, even if I try very hard, I can't really picture her romantically involved with them, John or Harold in the same way.

    On the other hand, I can't deny she had such a special relationship with John, much deeper than the one she had with Harold, and I think that's because it was John who sought her, who exposed himself more, who deeply admired and idealized her. She was his moral compass and with reason.

    And I won't deny either that she could see right through him, as I've said many times she truly believed in him and she truly believed that he was a good man, no matter what he had done in the past.

    But I've always seen her encouraging them, reprimanding them, caring about them as a mother. Not a lover, not a friend. Such roles are important but I don't think they can fully describe their bond. A mother can be a mother even with people much older than her, a mother risks and sacrifices her own safety, her own moral. She bent her rules for them, for John.

    The only moment I've seen her acting like a woman in a romantic context was with Beecher, because she was also coy, shy, hesitant, beside her usual determinate and ordinary self, that is. And there I saw John acting like a brother (son?), protective and observant.

    I don't really know about John's feelings in all this. On the one hand I think he could never be in love again, not after his trauma with Jessica. And has he ever been able to be in a relationship? Why, and I mean, the very true reason, did he leave her? Insecurity, unworthiness?

    The most reasonable thing to assume is that he would think the same with Carter, even worse, after the CIA monstrosities he did and the high opinion he has of her, because of her honest life. The gap has become unbridgeable.

    Moreover, I've only seen deep admiration from his part, high respect, protectiveness, I couldn't see him smitten, really, or thinking about sex.

    That scene at the morgue was a poignant declaration of all this, of how much she was important for him, how much she had helped him. I can't see that as a sign of being in love. I can see that a sign of love, though.

    It surely depends on my "maternal" perspective, of course.

    Frankly, I'm really sad that she's gone. John seems to feel better after that "pleasant" flight, but we've lost a mother, we've lost the positive character and this can foresee darker times only.

    Darkness that I love, on the other hand, and I'm sure the writers will be great at it.

    Only I hope that her very last sentence "Don't let this..." (again the sentence of a mother who wants her child to keep walking the good path) will be heeded, because as much as I love darker atmospheres, I also believe John should really think he still has a bit of good in him.

  • GreatHomerJay Jan 27, 2014

    Oh, I completely agree with you that Carter acted motherly, especially to John. After all, that's how their whole relationship started. She saw a veteran in deep trouble and her instinct was to try and help him.

    However, I don't agree that her acting motherly and them becoming romantically involved are mutually exclusive. Many girlfriends and wives take on motherly traits with their partners, which can be both a good and a bad thing in a relationship (the perfect TV example being Marge and Homer Simpson). The same can be true the other way around. A man can be protective, caring, nurturing and encouraging to his partner, just like a father is supposed to be, without that having an adverse effect on the relationship. It's all about role distribution. If both parties are good with the roles in the relationship, the relationship works.

    John is self sufficient and as far as we know, always has been. But even the most self sufficient person in the world can do with a little care and nurture every once in a while. I have an image of John not being used to that kind of attention from anyone and actually liking it once he found it in Carter. You could see it in that smug smile he got every time she acted motherly towards him. It was that "I've got this, but it's nice to know that someone cares about me" kind of smile.

    But, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. These two people didn't see each other as romantic interests. I still think there's an argument that the kiss was perfectly natural. Let's dive into the psychology of the situation:

    They both had a need to show that they cared deeply for each other and the adrenaline from the situation had them both in hyperdrive. So how do two people of opposite genders that have no family ties show affection for one another? They could hug, but the situation was entirely too intense for that to be enough. They needed two things in that situation: Release for their intense feelings and reassurance. Sure, if Carter had lived, the days, weeks and months after the kiss might have become awkward for them if that kiss wasn't intended to be romantic for one or both of them, but how many kisses and one night stands with awkward moments to follow have come out of situations way less intense than this one over the course of human history?

    Either way, I still say the kiss fit perfectly with the situation.

  • Shaol Jan 29, 2014

    How come I can't reply to your comment below? Here's my reply here:

    “And has he ever been able to be in a relationship? Why, and I mean, the very true reason, did he leave her? Insecurity, unworthiness?”

    It was hasty and barely touched, because we weren’t really in that topic during my first comment, but my allusions at John’s inner insecurity in a romantic relationship are there, because I’ve never bought the whole “I leave you to save the Country from terrorists”.

    Also because he clearly declares so to Peter Arndt, telling him he had left her because he thought someone could take better care of her.

    John was very insecure; I entirely share your point about it.

    On the other hand, I believe this insecurity doesn’t strictly depend on the person he has in front of him. He didn’t feel that way because of Jessica, while feeling less insecure with Joss because she was stronger. I think it simply is a weakness of his, because of some background I’d love to know about (we had a nice share of Finch’s past, I so hope they’ll give us the same about Reese’s).

    Moreover, I think Jessica’s strength is often underestimated. I believe two things, above all:

    1) She showed a lot of courage, asking, begging John to return to her, more than willing to wait for him, and bravely pursuing the opportunity to spend her life with John, even though she was already engaged. Trying everything to pursue happiness is a very admirable trait, in my opinion, not to mention manifestation of strength. John almost, ALMOST said those words in front of her at the airport and she was right, he lacked courage then and then, at the same time, he knew he should have said those words moments before, to her face. He simply couldn’t, for who knows what fear, what past trauma, and that hurt him badly because he felt helpless to control this “primordial self destructive urge”.

    2) They had a true connection, as John’s states during his very first speech in the pilot. “You become someone better”. I think they both were better when they were together. He was less insecure and she was stronger. A good relationship can do that to you, they improved each other. That’s way Jessica hadn’t the strength to fight against Peter, she had lost a part of it when she had lost John. And John without her was lost for a long time. Too bad she couldn’t improve him enough to make him abandon his insecurities entirely and give him the courage to pursue his happiness too.

    But John can be quite stubborn, can he? Not even Carter’s death, and Finch reminding him so, could stop him from pulling that trigger against Quinn.

    So, you see, I think Carter wasn’t enough either to completely “heal” John, to fight his inner demons. Not when she was alive, nor when she was dead.

    Back to Jessica’s weakness, I know there are people who would have reacted all the same against abuse, a woman like Carter, for example, but I don’t think we should consider Jessica that weak because of what happened between her and Peter. She also was a disillusioned woman about love, and again, it was partially John’s fault for don’t believing enough in them.

    I’m a great supporter of human relationships and I think we have inner strength, but that we also gather strength from people around us.

    So in the end I don’t think John’s drama about Jessica is guilt only, he is very guilty, we can’t deny that, but it’s also a missing opportunity: it’s a lost chance to be a “better” person, to have an ordinary life, with a house or a boat, and children, and we all know John’s always longs for that, although he doesn’t believe he could ever had that at all. He knows he should have believed in them back in 2001, because it was his dream and he didn’t have the courage to pursue it.

    Hence I’m still grasping that 1%, because I think John could never feel a peer to Carter, he simply gathered the strength to declare his gratitude but his insecurities would have prevail once again, as he showed in the hotel with Quinn. People can “improve” us, but they can’t really change something deeply rooted inside us.

    So I can’t see a “safe” relationship either, as I can’t see romance between them, I really can’t. In an ideal world maybe, but not like that, not with a Machine and their pasts hindering an “ordinary” flow of events.

    You know what wouldn’t surprise me? If John decided to let go of Zoe as well, trust him to think that he’s doomed to lose and “kill” every woman he got attached to someway, romantically, physically or mentally. So why endanger her? I really hope he’s not THAT hopeless in that regard, because I’m afraid that what he has with Zoe is the most he can have from a romantic side. Too broken, even more now, I can’t see a chance of normal “romance” for him. I hope he makes the most of it, because everyone deserves a bit of that in his/her life.
    (As Carter was trying to do with Beecher. Sad, sad turn of events that as well, and she was fighting for justice and him too, she told more than once).

    But you know what? In the end I don’t really mind, because I’m a sadistic fangirl and I love broken characters and dark atmospheres and I don’t particularly enjoy romance in TV shows or movies. Moreover I think POI has never been focused on idyllic romance at all, so I can’t wait to go back again to every mystery and twist and surprise the writers have in store for us.

    And yes, I hope they’re zealous enough to read all our ramblings :D

  • Shaol Jan 28, 2014

    You’ve exposed very valid points here and I agree that all you’ve mentioned is very plausible: it really depends on the type of relationship you develop with your partner, the balance you reach.

    Unfortunately, I’m afraid we’ll never find out about that, regarding John and Joss, because, if it’s my turn to hypothesize for the sake of the argument and to agree that they were in love, consequentially ending up together, they couldn’t reach the point to test that balance because of the relationship which didn’t bloom due to her early death.

    I don’t concur on the interpretation of this particular situation, which I have surely noticed but understood differently:

    “I have an image of John not being used to that kind of attention from anyone and actually liking it once he found it in Carter. You could see it in that smug smile he got every time she acted motherly towards him. It was that "I've got this, but it's nice to know that someone cares about me" kind of smile.”

    I have this same images and I connects it to John’s childhood: since he has only mentioned his father so far, and since I do agree that he was extremely pleased to get those motherly attentions from Carter, I have speculated that his mother’s caring nurturing stopped abruptly (maybe she died when he was very little, maybe she embittered because of her husband’s unfair life/death or who knows).

    Then it has been all war and sufferance, he has only one occasion to catch his breath, those six months with Jessica, but then it’s global tragedy and he chooses to give up their idyllic relationship.

    And again I can’t help but think something about his mother must be relevant here, because she had been the wife of a soldier and John’s intention was to spare Jessica the same fate, a fate he could more than picture in his head, it was a reality he had lived in his home and knew how it worked.

    So he goes on and it’s only talks about darkness and being The Dark for him from then.

    Then there’s Carter, who gives him those gestures, gestures he knew through his mother, not through Jessica (which I’m sure was maternal enough, but maybe more devoted and deeply in love than anything else).
    That’s why I’ve considered John sort of immune to any romantic attraction to the maternal trait.

    Also, we can’t forget Joan, who took care of him while he was homeless. Now I understand it’s a tad difficult to fall in love with someone like Joan and that I can’t really compare her to Carter, but it’s just an example to say that John definitely has a weak spot for maternal affection not strictly related to romance.

    Then again, maybe it wasn’t the maternal affection which made him fall in love with Carter, but the fact that they could share war stories and experience. But I see those traits the ones you can admire in a friend, not a lover, and you can assert the opposite and we end up in the same conundrum all over again, because in the end we don’t have enough material to establish if they were in love or not, because every gesture can be read both ways.

    Despite everything though, I think the most enigmatic figure here is John. If I must have a doubt about the romantic involvement it’s only from his part, because from Carter’s perspective I see things much clearer: I see a woman who was brave enough to rise her son by herself and protect him from his own, drifting father. It’s really difficult to picture her willingly facing a similar situation when it comes to John, because of a fresh romance. I think she showed us she had the courage not to take a responsibility she couldn’t handle, being a mother to his son AND to his husband, and it’s difficult to imagine she would change her mind for John, deciding she could be a lover/mother for him, who isn’t even the father of her child.

    We’re really discussing hues here, nuances, because we lack material.

    But I do have one thing I really want you to thank for, and it’s making that kiss 99% normal for me. I still keep a tiny 1%, and it was the rational explanation I kept giving myself, but reading that, following my own reasing has helped me a lot and for that I really thank you.

    Also, last thing, I swear, all this talk made me ponder again on the fact that we only know something about John’s father and Harold’s, and not a thing about their mothers. Could the writers have some nice surprise about them for us? Could there be only one? It would be kinda cliché but those are questions you ask yourself when you watch your fair share of tv shows.

    And now I’m off, for real! Thanks again!

  • GreatHomerJay Jan 28, 2014

    Glad I could help :-)

    I like where your thoughts are going about the whole Finch and Reese's mothers never being mentioned thing. There's some serious potential for character insight later on. Good catch. Let's hope the writers have either had those thoughts already or care enough about their show to read this and be inspired (they probably don't, but you can always hope, right?).

    I've been reading through our discussion again and I actually think I might be able to help you with that final 1%.

    You make som good points about the high regard that Reese had for Carter and her bending the rules for him and Finch and also about the whole maternal instinct thing and how she didn't want to be a mom to both her son and her drifting husband. There's also Jessica and how John felt about her and particularly about losing her the way he did. However, I believe the missing 1% is hidden in plain sight in your own statements.

    Yes, Carter was a by-the-book cop to begin with and Reese was a rulebreaker who only avoided killing anyone he felt deserved it because Finch told him not to. But as the relationship between them evolved, they both ventured into each others moral territory, Reese trying to play by or at least in the vecinity of the rules and Carter breaking them little by little as a means to an end. That brought on a mutual understanding of both sides of the playing field, so when they stood in that morgue together, the field was level. They both had an understanding of each others' worlds, the possibilities and limitations within each of them and the grey area in between. That created a mutual respect that bridged the unbridgeable gap you talked about.

    As for Carter and her ex and comparing their relationship to her realtionship with John, I have a couple of observations:

    1. Carter's ex wasn't able to pull himself up even with her help. I underlined the word "with" because I have a clear image of her trying for an extended period of time. It's just who she is. Also, her ex didn't really appreciate what she was trying to do for him, which eventually led to her kicking him out. Reese is different. Yes, he needed help, but we've already established that it's in her nature to provide that, so that's clearly not a problem for her. But he accepted her help, which sets him apart from her ex. Even though Reese is in many ways capable of taking better care of himself than most people, he still acknowledges that he's not Rambo. He can't win the war alone and he knows it. That's points for Reese that her ex never got.

    2. Carter's ex had a tough time with her being a cop. Classic male fears of being inferior to or weaker than your woman, leading to disrespect and sometimes even sabotage. Reese respects her for being a cop and not only that, he actually holds her capabilities and morals in high regard. For a strong, independant woman like Carter, that's a must in a man.

    3. Carter may have a strong protective gene, but so does Reese. They're very similar in that way and they both knew that.

    Conclusion: Reese isn't the opposite of what she wanted and needed. He's exactly what she wanted and needed.

    As for Reese and Jessica, I think the psychology behind her significance to him is quite different from what most people belive. The common thinking is that he was head over heels in love with her, had to leave her because of his job (both because he was physically called away and because he didn't want her involved, so she wouldn't get hurt) and then regretted it, only he did it too late to save her and now he's heartbroken that the love of his life is dead. That's certainly how it seems anyway. But let's take a look at John Reese for a moment:

    We're talking about an introverted control freak with a strong sense of justice and duty and an even stronger protective gene. As such, he's likely to feel responsible for any and all bad things that happen to the people close to him. Failure is not something this man does well with, especially if it's failure to live up to his duty of protecting the people he feels he should. He's fiercely loyal to the people he feels deserve it, but he's stingy with his personal feelings, even to those closest to him. He's incredibly intelligent and resourceful and is drawn to people like himself or "better versions" of himself, which leads me to believe that in spite of his resourcefulness and intelligence, he's insecure and feels that nothing he ever does is good enough.

    Apply this "profile" to his relationship with Jessica and you'll soon figure out why he left her. Insecurity. His sense of duty to protect her from all things bad in this world was sure to be challenged sooner or later and in weighing the pros and cons of having a girlfriend who didn't have the knowledge or skills to protect herself, that was a challenge he stood to lose. A loss he wouldn't be able to cope with. His strong feelings about her death have nothing to do with how much he loved her. They're about his inability to protect her. It's not loss. It's guilt.

    Carter was everything Jessica wasn't. A woman who knew the world he lived in and accepted it and a woman who knew how to protect herself. She was "safe" to have a relationship with.

  • vbrockin28 Jan 26, 2014

    Great post

  • Maximum_Newbage Jan 24, 2014

    I'm just glad carter is finally gone. Talented as the actress was, her character was neither compelling, nor believable IMO. Scenes where she pulled off Reese-level badassery and gun play were particularly off-putting. She was an INTERROGATOR for the military. She shouldn't have more than basic combat training. And even if she had the same training that infantry weapon specialists get, Reese mows through those like grass on a daily basis. Besides, she was redundant given that Fusco was also a detective working with Finch/Reese. So if it takes Reese making out with her and saying she "saved him" to have her killed off, then so be it.

  • Irrelevant226 Jan 24, 2014

    You're an idiot obviously.

  • jessicakroeber Jan 28, 2014

    Please be nice to each other. TV.com has a zero tolerance policy for bullying or personal attacks. Please play nice!

  • Wuchel Jan 24, 2014

    You know, it's because of comments like yours and several others not so nicely and respectfully phrased reactions to this article that I have come to refer to the Carter/Reese shippers mainly as The Mean Bunch.

    Everyone has a right to his/her own opinion. I don't see anyone here calling the Careese-fans and their opinion idiotic, even though some of us don't agree. It's a matter of respect!

  • Wuchel Jan 25, 2014

    Really? Over 20 'likes' for an insult?? Unbelievable ... but thanks for proofing my point -.-

  • Irrelevant226 Jan 24, 2014

    WTF is a shipper?

  • Denius1704 Jan 23, 2014

    You know a show is going well when they start petitioning for extra stuff in the DVD instead of renewal...

  • carol2 Jan 23, 2014

    I am quite happy with the referenced scene in The Crossing and have no need to see alternate takes. I like in particular that the kiss confirmed the slowly evolving and long-standing interest Reese had displayed toward Carter since mid-season one. The affection and romantic interest was definitely ramped up in all the episodes of season three beginning with the highly personalized phone call in Liberty, the chest bump in Lady Killer, the beer date, the fist bump and other clear signs of involvement and engagement between these two. I don't feel that Reese's declaration to Carter in any way negated his feeling that Finch was crucial to his rescue and redemption. On the contrary, Reese was stating that without Carter's timely intervention, Finch's help would not have been available to him. I also think that what Reese was doing was purely and understandably human: he was recounting a critical turning point in his life (meeting Carter) through the lens of his current feelings for her. Just as we might all tell the story of our first meeting with a spouse one way the day after it happened and a different way ten years later, Reese was reflecting how he feels now about Carter and her importance in his life. This makes complete sense to me as a psychological insight into Reese. He never saw her as a "buddy" or platonic pal. And the kiss confirmed that.

  • Shaol Jan 23, 2014

    I must say our perspectives are antipodal, but for that I want to thank you even more for commenting so peacefully and calmly, it’s a precious gift!

  • TomWayne Jan 23, 2014

    Actually, the kiss was not scripted. If you watch/read the numerous interviews they did for Entertainment Weekly, IGN, etc., the actors felt the moment needed it, so they added it ad-lib. Nolan and company agreed that it worked as a simple goodbye sweet thank-you kiss.

  • Shaol Jan 23, 2014

    Yup, that's precisely for this reason that I was investigating on the topic, because I would have loved to see any other take of the scene, if there is one, that is, which has followed the original script.

    But the majority voted against so I believe there's no point in starting the petition at all.

  • TVMonger Jan 23, 2014

    Can we start a petition for them to reshoot the end of Lost so that it doesn't suck??

  • Irrelevant226 Jan 24, 2014

    Can we start a petition for them to reshoot the last SEASON of Lost? Actually make that the last 2 seasons!! Lol

  • Wuchel Jan 23, 2014

    I would definitely like to see it as a special feature on the DVD ;)

  • Shaol Jan 23, 2014

    LOL, I wasn't asking for a reshooting, but if you start a petition about LOST finale you have my vote ;P

  • Togana Jan 23, 2014

    Really, this is your beef? Not the fact that Carter was killed off, but because Reese gave her a "goodbye" kiss? Whatever.

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