Arrow "Betrayal" Review: Mother Knows... More Than She's Letting On

Arrow S01E13: "Betrayal"

In a lot of ways, "Betrayal" reminded of me "An Innocent Man," an early episode of Arrow that I didn’t particularly like because the case of the week was really underbaked, and it more of a vehicle for exploring Oliver’s sense of mission. At that point, the show wasn’t quite up to the task of integrating those ideas as part of a fully realized whole. I had a similar issue with "Betrayal" in that our villain’s plot was clichéd as hell (and a real waste of an actor who plays menacing really well), and again the show wanted to dig into larger concerns, this time regarding issues of trust. The difference is that, with nine more episodes under its belt since "An Innocent Man," the show had more ongoing story to help buttress a lackluster case-of-the-week.

Arrow has struggled to integrate its supporting cast beyond Diggle into Oliver’s vigilante activities, and that's been a sticking point for the series' narrative momentum on an episode-to-episode basis. Laurel and Tommy in particular tend to feel like they’re on a totally different show sometimes; while I defend this aspect of the series to a degree because these are characters with lives outside of Oliver’s, Arrow hasn’t made my defense very convincing or compelling.

"Betrayal" didn’t change that, as the fight between Laurel and Tommy—over her lying about going to work and instead meeting up with the Hood—wasn’t really predicated on anything that's come before for them. As a plot, it would’ve likely worked just as well two or three episodes ago as it did here. Sure, maybe Tommy was a bit on edge with regard to trusting people’s intentions after that disastrous dinner with his father, but that wasn't referenced as a motivation for his frustration with Laurel’s behavior. Indeed, it was actually more that Laurel is drawn to bad boys, which is an issue for them given their respective track records and personalities, but again, I’m not sure how convincing that particular point was. I generally prefer the Tommy-and-trust-issues reading myself. But their conflict, and Laurel’s abduction, transformed Oliver’s vigilantism into a cause of tension in their relationship. We learned that Tommy’s not crazy about a guy in a hood shooting arrows into people, which finally gives him something in common with both Quentin and Malcolm (albeit for different reasons), and hopefully we’ll see that play out a bit more in upcoming episodes.

Speaking of Quentin, there was yet another big argument between the Lances about, well, everything. A lot of it felt like well-trodden territory, so Quentin using Laurel as bait (I’m glad we didn’t have to wait long for that phone-bugging to pay off) freshened things up and helped to flesh out Quentin’s obsessive behavior by giving him a slightly finer parallel to Oliver’s obsession/mission. It also awarded Quentin a plot beyond hunting for the Hood, as he can now go after the mole inside the police force.

In more interesting plotting, Oliver and Diggle dealt with the ramifications of the new notebook, and what it meant for Oliver’s mission and his family. I appreciated Oliver’s faith in Moira (goodness knows he’s needed it survive the transition from island life to family life and Hooding up) and his willingness to come around when presented with evidence of Moira’s duplicity, but what I really appreciated was Diggle being significantly more active in this episode than he typically has been. I’m half convinced he locked up Moira’s regular driver in some random locale just so he could spy on her. Every now and then it’s easy to forget that Diggle is a competent guy in his own right, so watching pursue Moira and throw off Malcolm’s security guy was very welcomed.

Plus it resulted in what was probably one of the show’s more dramatic and awesome moments as Oliver burst in on Moira in the Queen Consolidated building to have an “arrowside chat,” and said his “You have failed this city!” mantra while leveling an arrow at her. That line has never really worked for me, but I liked it here because she’d failed more than Starling City in this instance, and it gave that silly line some weight.

Arrow's Starling City plots are typically about the moment when things collide, as we have more information than any of the characters at almost any given moment (though that’s rapidly changing). In contrast, the island flashbacks operate differently because we have very little information, and as such, they’re significantly more twisty. I figured it was Slade Wilson (Deathstroke’s real name) in the crashed airplane just before he revealed his identity due to the costume styling, but what do we make of his story about there being another member of his Australian intelligence crew, and that he was the one who tortured Oliver? I’m not sure I buy it, but like I said, the island flashbacks withhold information, and are much harder to pin down.

But the show's multiple storylines are beginning to coalesce across the board, and hopefully in very productive and exciting ways. We’ve got a buzzy new phrase to hang Malcolm’s big plans on, Moira’s secrets are catching up with her, Tommy and Laurel are potentially hitting rocky shores, Quentin is isolated both personally and professionally, and Oliver now has to face what it means when his mission gets personal.


NOTES & QUOTES


– I suppose a quick mention of the Cyrus Vanch plot as a whole is warranted, even if it was pretty terrible. I love David Anders, and he was completely wasted here. I liked Cyrus's plan to fill in the criminal underworld vacuum by taking down the Hood, even if it, and the execution of it—abducting a person who seems important to the hero—has been done to death, because it made sense given Oliver’s activities in Starling City. I even liked that he counted all the arrows in the quiver, as it was a nice character detail in a character without much detail (though how he pulled that off using news footage is beyond me). I can only hope that Cyrus returns at a later date, and that Arrow really gives Anders something to do.

– Lots of little nods to DC writers and artists in this episode. First off, George, Vanch’s lawyer, worked at Wolfman and Perez, a nod to Marv Wolfman and—wait for it—George Perez, the duo behind DC’s Crisis on Infinite Earths story. There was also the Winick Building, named for Judd Winick, a major writer in contemporary Green Arrow comics.

– Iron Heights Prison is located in Keystone City, the Flash’s home city, in the comics.

– “I hope George has gone food shopping. I’m famished.”

– I appreciated that Laurel was able to take down Vanch’s goons before getting tasered. I was worried she was just going to revert to abducted-damsel mode, but there’s self-defense-class Laurel in full form.

– So that was, what, like 20 dudes arrow’d or stabbed at Vanch’s mansion?

– "I'm the vigilante. You're the cop." "Doesn’t mean I have to read the bastard his rights, though." ACTUALLY QUENTIN, IT DOES. Unless you’d like the arrest tossed out on a technicality? I mean, you have a lawyer in the room, for Pete’s sake.

– If you’re interested in reading the current Green Arrow comics, I’d suggest picking up the issue that went on sale today, issue No. 17. The title has really struggled to find its footing, and No. 17 is an attempt at a soft reboot. It’s written by Jeff Lemire, one of best scribes currently at DC, and as such the series probably more potential than the series has had. Just know that it’s not in the same continuity as Arrow, so don’t go in expecting similarities beyond a dude in a hood shooting arrows.


What'd you think of this week's episode?

Comments (122)
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Looks like tonight's episode is going to be an interesting one for Deathstroke\Slade Wilson
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I wonder if it was the writers to write "upon" instead of "on" in Manu's lines, or if Manu Bennett couldn't resist as he has to use "upon" in every sentence in Spartacus.
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The optimism you have for this show is infectious. I love it.
-A vigilante, a lawyer, and a cop walk into a penthouse.... Yeah, Lance he irritates me. You are obsessed with this vigilante....you loathe what he does, and you're dead set on finding and capturing this guy to the point of using your own daughter as bait on a hunch (that could have been wrong) that the vigilante wouldn't hurt Laurel. But then you reluctantly contact this guy to save your daughter, and proceed to almost maim or kill the guy who took her? What happen to justice, Lance? I mean we're willing to accept Lance for being a dick, because he is law enforcement and despite being unnaturally obsessed with his hunt for the hood he does in fact have a job to do, but the day you're willing to cast away everything you preach about as far as justice etc...you've lost the only thing that made you actually tolerable. His view on justice and being so stern about it was the only thing he had going for him...if that was so easily compromised then he's just that one character who is a complete and utter jackass for the hell of it. I mean you know it's bad when the vigilante has shoot the gun out of your hand and tell you to do your damn job. C'mon Lance! Ugh.
-I loved that Diggle got his own sleuthin on. Because he deserves to be used as the competent and capable character that he is. I love it when he and Ollie at are odds because he's always that much needed Voice of Reason and for reasons I haven't really figured out he somehow manages to get through to Ollie every time. It's funny that Ollie was holding so tightly to his belief in his Mother operating under the impression that she hasn't changed, the episode after he had to school Diggle on having too much faith in a person. Plus it was great seeing Diggle interact with a character that wasn't Ollie.
-So agree with the Tommy/Laurel thing. They didn't pull out reasonable arguments that they could have made.
-Yes!! GROSS MISUSE of David Anders!! That should never happen! I was excited to see him and then he did absolutely nothing exciting and I was soooo disappointed because it's David Anders!
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Haha. I'm a little amused at the notion of having optimism about the show (even though I do) when just last week I described it a solid B-level show that I wasn't setting my world on fire. I do think there's reasons to like the show, and I think I've adjusted expectations appropriately.

That said, with a season 2 renewal, hopefully they'll step up their game a bit...?
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Despite what tv tells you, cops don't actually have to read a person their rights during arrest, only before questioning. And even if they didn't, the person wouldn't get off, it would just mean that anything they said during that questioning couldn't be used in court.
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Good to know!
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I wonder when someone in the show is going to call him The Green Arrow. The hood is so lame. I wish they would show a little bit more on what happened on the island.
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Malcolm Merlyn actually did suggest the name--in one of the best-scripted self-aware show moments of the season, at the dinner in "Year's End." And, in a Raimiverse "Spider-Man 2" homage (J Jonah Jameson re:"Doctor Octopus"), Oliver flatly rejects the name as "Lame."

(Even so, Dig slyly referred to their HQ as the "Arrow Cave" a few eps back--can't remember which ep offhand.)
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Arrow continues doing two things: grabbing interesting actors to play the villain part (Seth Gabel, David Anders) just to waste their potential, and pulling off ridiculous action sequences (last week's cheap video-gamey climb up the staircase, this week's silly assault on the mansion).
Quentin continues to bore me as a character (much more than Laurel, Thea, or Tommy). A thick-headed cop that is supposedly such a faithful law follower, blinded in his silly hate beyond all rationale. Yawn. Just can't give him much credit.

This episode it was Diggle to the rescue, doing some competent job on his own (while Oliver once again came off as too stubborn to make the right call). And I know many people have called this out already, but Moira's crystal clear voice vs Malcolm's distorted speech... ugh. Please get smarter, Arrow.

I could do with an island-centric episode, personally. There is some interesting stuff going on there, but I feel like the flashbacks are often too brief, too episodic. I get that they want to save some story for the further seasons, but a different formula now and then really wouldn't hurt.

At least things ended up with an interesting cliffhanger (now if only The Hood could drop this cheesy "failed this city" line...). Here is hoping that the outcome won't be too cheap.
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Personally, I think Quentin knows on some level that Oliver is the Hood. His gut tells him what his mind won't listen to--either because he actually can't teconcile seeing Oliver at home when Dig-Arrow was taking down some baddies, or (more likely) because he knows that there's nothing he can do about it given Laurel's feelings, the Queen money and influence over the city leaders, and a lack of solid proof. Or at least I believe that Blackthorne sees his character that way, as his screaming at Arrow about his hatred for him seemed to carry grief with it,

I just think the writers are reluctant to turn him into Jim Gordon, as they feel it adds depth to the character. The problem is continuing it after this episode. It is now abundantly clear to Quentin that Laurel would've died if it weren't for Arrow's intervention, a situation so emotional for Quentin that he had to be stopped by Arrow from becoming the very thing he hates. That should produce at least some change in the character. Even some villains can appreciate someone heroically saving their child. If the writers intend to prolong this animosity though, they do need to add real depth, not just assume it will seem to be there by default, no matter how well Blackthorne tries to flesh out his character on his own through his acting.



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I haven't really talked about Quentin, but it's largely because I don't think I have an opinion about him. He's a quasi-obstacle for Oliver's vigilante activities and for Laurel's emotional development (being charitable), but I also know exactly how a scene with Quentin will play out, and so I sort of hit a cruise control when he shows up.

Which is probably the worst thing you can say about a character. Yes, many characters play the same beats from episode to episode, but the writing for those beats, particularly in the cases of Oliver-Diggle and Oliver-Felicity, but also Moira-Malcolm and Oliver-Moira, often feel fresher due to writing or acting, be it the one-liners Diggle gets or the lame excuses that Oliver offers Felicity or the fact that Thompson and Amell have a nice bit of chemistry together (making this Hood cliffhanger a very exciting prospect).

Quentin's problem, for me, is really writing. I rather like Blackthorne as an actor, but you can sort of see him struggling to keep this interesting sometimes (and maintain a consistent accent).
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I certainly don't blame Paul Blackthorne for his character's shortcomings. I do think that he tries, but there isn't much to do with this one-sided and a rather bland direction that Quentin has been forced to take nearly from the start. It is indeed very predictable, with little to no variety in his reactions.

@TomWayne, I wish you were right. This isn't exactly the first time that Quentin has been given hints with regards to The Hood's true allegiances - although it may have very well been the first time when the message was so loud and clear. I just hope it can stimulate some growth in the character, because this one-dimensional approach is very tiring.
I think it's fine for Quentin not to approve of Oliver's methods and to question some of his actions, but it's the doubting of Hood's every motivation and treating him like the worst sort of criminal that gets me (and in this episode we were even given a proof that many other cops in the department are not nearly as oblivious to the signals that might speak of the vigilante's true nature). This kind of auto-pilot animosity would be worthy of a greater cause.
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This was by far one of my favorites because it really feels like the plot is picking up now, and I'm so ready for it. There was a lot in this episode that seems to be setting up for future episodes, including Tommy's dislike for the Hood and Laurel's involvement with him, the whole Lance family feud thing, even the fact that Diggle was caught listening in by Malcolm's crony could have some sort of consequence later. Seriously gotta wonder who's feeding information from the SCPD too. The fact that Oliver now is aware the yacht was sabotaged is exciting in itself without any of the aforementioned. I'm very excited for next week.

One thing I didn't quite expect to see in this show was Arrow vs Moira, or even the very sight of a bow and arrow drawn at her. Kinda felt sorry for her in a way, but I understand Oliver's train of thought in showing up in costume to speak with her a second time. I really love Susanna Thompson's work playing Moira, the final scene of this episode was very dramatic just by looking at her FACE. Lol.
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Noel, Vanch knowing the 24-arrow thing was a bit of a plot stretch for me as well (given his claimed source material), until I also considered that he was talking to Laurel, and therefore probably lied to hide his real source (the mole in the SCPD). Still, there was nothing in the "deleted lines" bonus material. (If you watch the show with captions on, you'll see--usually once or twice an episode--a script line that got deleted from the audio track last-minute, either after the captions were added, or the caption people didn't get the memo. For example, check the scene when Laurel tells Arrow about Vanch's lawyer--in the captions, she mentions that the lawyer is now missing but no signs of foul play, but the audio drops the bit about him missing and only has her saying no foul play. The deleted line often fits with the dialogue, but is likely dropped because it doesn't fit with the plot (unlikely that a missing persons report was done) or to edit some of the more trite lines due to critiques that the dialogue isn't tight enough.)

It'll be interesting to see who the woman is in the Arrow Cave in next week's preview. The description (and logic) call for it to be Felicity, but I noticed that the sweater and hair (glimpsed very briefly behind Diggle right after the monitor flatlines--you have to freeze frame on the flatline and do a frame-by-frame to catch it) happen to match the picture of Moira at the top of your review. Then again. Moira wasn't wearing that sweater in the final scene. and I doubt that the reveal to her would happen this early, so I'm guessing that Felicity likes the same color (or the costume design budget has been blown on the suits (both business and Arrow) and the island mercenary outfits (gotta say, that Deathstroke mask is still pretty sweet).
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Ah, thanks for elaborating on the captions issue. I've been wondering about that for the past few episodes (I would even argue that, sometimes, the removal of certain audio bits doesn't make much sense).

It would be hard to justify anyone else than Felicity gaining entrance to the Arrow Cave at this stage, and I really hope that the writers won't try to surprise us just for the sake of surprise (by, say, bringing Moira down there).
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Agreed--the last-minute deletions sometimes drop lines that should be left in for clarity. (If the line seems trite, then rewrite the thing if the thought-flow still fits.) The perfect case recently was the part in "Trust but Verify" when, in reply to Oliver's questioning about what happens if Dig (in his plan to go undercover on Gaynor's team) finds ut that Gaynor is dirty, Dig's scripted line (based on the captions) was that he would take Gaynor down himself and that Oliver owed Dig that chance. The audio track awkwardly drops the first part of the line (about Dig taking Gaynor down himself) and leaves in the "you owe me" part, making Dig sound more like Thea than himself at that moment.
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It's odd that you mention the captioning. I normally watch the shows I review with the captioning turned on (even my animated shows), but I simply didn't think to do that this week.

I'm rooting for Felicity in those promos, if only because I want to see her and Diggle gang up on Oliver with witty one-liners and knowing looks.
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Plus, Felicity's typical awkwardness about not saying something of a sexual harassment nature would be comically compounded by a factor of 100 having worked on a shirtless Oliver.

Moira would definitely be premature IMHO, and would also be reallllly awkward for Oliver when he wakes from the hot Laurel dream to see Mama's face.

Laurel would be too early as well, given the whole deal with Tommy in this episode, but then Thea would be the true worst choice--not just given her lack of personal stability, but moreover her diarrhea-of-the-mouth. Although I'm sure I've ticked off a few of those members of the Who-cares-about-the-plot-I-wanna-see-Katie-Cassidy-in-Black-Canary-fishnets-and/or-Willa-Holland-in-Speedy-red-tights Club. (Sorry guys, unless they unwisely drop Diggle from the show, I think those will just remain in-jokes.)
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My money is on it being Felicity, although I'm actually hoping it's Moira. I really want to see what she does / how she continues on with Malcolm after seeing what Oliver really has become.

I have to wonder how he ends up getting out of that building without being revealed to his mother. I'd think after shooting a mysterious vigilante in a hood, my next step would immediately be to unmask the guy. But, that's just me. ;)
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In my opinion, this ep is more in the relationships between the regular characters and not of the villain of the week.
It was a shame though in using David Anders much in this ep.
A positive thing though is that his character was not killed off and the possibility of him coming back is quite high.
It would be great for The Hood to have an antagonist who thinks and intelligent enough to do research. :)

Tommy, jealous of The Hood. Hahaha.
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OMFG!!!! what a fuckin cliffhanger!!! <3
This fast-Awesome Cliffhanger makes me forgive the terrible plot lines in this episode ....at least , This Show is moving forward !!!
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'I figured it was Slade Wilson ' What led you to that earth-shattering conclusion? The fact it was Manu Bennett and everybody knows Manu Bennet was cast as Slade Wilson?
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Fun facts: 1) I explained the rationale for why I thought that right after the bit you quoted, so keep on reading. 2) I don't know Manu Bennet from a hole in the wall, so while I knew they had cast Slade, I didn't recall the name.
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So saddened about David Anders. Absolutely loved him in Alias (and Heroes, despite how shit the rest of the season was), but it was really weird not hearing him in his native British accent.
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Actually, just so you know, Anders accent is not native UK. The guy is a lifelong American. He just happens to be exceedingly good at putting on that specific British accent.
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Seriously? Major props to him then, his accent in both Alias and Heroes is top notch.
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Best cliffhanger of the year?
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Laurel got tasered!
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I thought it was an above average episode. It had its share of irritating details, but it also had a few interesting developments.

Did Diggle bring a lighter and a pack of cigarettes just so he could use the "I just went in here to smoke" excuse?
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I certainly would in his position.
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Which again boggles the mind on the total lack of stealth that Oliver (when going to the Dark Archer's bomb-rigged hideout) and Diggle (here) display when going into a hostile site. Do they not consider cameras and other security devices might be alerting everyone to their presence, much less recording it? Especially given Dig's military background and Oliver's island training.

This ain't the Old West, fellers--you don't just stroll on in. Oy.
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Yeah, David Anders was truly wasted here, it felt like most of his character's moments were left on the cutting room floor, but I suspect they simply didn't bother writing them. Also, I'd like to see Anders go back to using his British accent from "Alias" - he's even more menacing with it.

Ooh, "buttress", fancy word, Mr. College. ;-)

Poor Quentin, he's going to spend all that time going after the mole, and the audience can pretty much assume that it's Ollie's old girlfriend, Detective McKenna, based on the way TV is made.

Based on what comic readers know of Deathstroke the Terminator, Slade Wilson is a lying sack of evil. But Slade Wilson is also American, and a product of American military scientific hubris, so obviously this Arrow version ain't that guy. I'm going to really hate this show if they pull some lazy "dual personality disorder" move with Deathstroke / Slade, and that's the vibe I got from that revelation scene - the writers aren't familiar with the character and just see the mask.

This episode wasn't terrible, but it wasn't terribly great either, and it had a lot of little dumb things that bugged me. Oh, speaking of, how stupid is it that Diggle got a voice recording of Moira talking to Malcolm, yet Malcolm's clear as bell voice was modulated while Moira's wasn't?

Wolfman and Perez also created Deathstroke when they rebooted Teen Titans in the '80s (my mom was a huge fan at the time and passed those books onto me about a week after she'd buy 'em; DC's "No Man's Land" pissed her off enough to leave comics pretty much altogether).

Laurel handling the goons was good on the level mentioned, but it bugged me on a TV level because I'm just sick of seeing stringy pretty-girls kicking ass on tv all the time. I am waiting for them to develop her into Black Canary though, it's kinda frustrating knowing there's more in store for Laurel than the paltry little character they've so far given her.

Apparently it was 23 dudes, Vanch miscounted and said 24 but the last thrower was there to save his putrid life.

In real life, the arrest wouldn't get tossed on that technicality, that's a trope from TV writing that doesn't happen, not unlike defibrillators restarting stopped hearts (they only shock an arrhythmic heart back into normal rhythm), not reading Vanch his rights before punching him in the face would get Lance in trouble for excessive violence but not affect the actual case so long as he later read him his rights (the prosecutor could also argue that Vanch already knew his rights from previous arrests). In tv land it was a horribly stupid line though.

Green Arrow hasn't NOT struggled to find its footing since the '40s, the character has never been consistently compelling. And this episode actually reminded me of a comic book issue but not in a good way, one where there's too many plotlines at once and not enough time to breathe. Those issues where flipping a page gets you taken to panels that have nothing to do with the previous page's panels, and you wonder why some of these stories couldn't have been told in a separate issue instead. This episode felt to me like too much compression of some ideas (Diggle driving Moira) and not enough thought put into others (Vanch's big plan), the only storyline that felt rounded was the island flashback and it turned out to be a bit of a ripoff with the "Slade didn't torture" play.

PS - I own those blades that Slade and Ollie were practicing with, I bought them in mid-December in Chinatown for $20, they have a magnet in the upper quarter of the blades to sandwich them together into a single scabbard. The store next door had the black-painted ones used on the show for $18, I was kicking myself. They're pretty much just fun to look at, not usable or even that safe.
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If it helps at all, I double-checked to make sure I was using buttress correctly. ;)

Totally forgot about them creating Deathstroke. Infinite Earths is just deep in my head. Well, wasn't the show just playing a bit of referential foreshadowing there.

"...so long as he later read him his rights..." Which it doesn't like Quentin intends to do. And, who knows, maybe that conk on the head Quentin administers knocked his knowledge of Miranda right out the window. ;)

We can debate the merits of GA comics, but for folks just wanting to get without having to read a lot to catch up on, I was trying to offer a bit of guidance. But, yes, the character is prone to weird tonal issues (40s tropes, 70 liberal pontificating and ham-fistedness (though still very good stuff), Grell's 80s-tastic take, and then, what?, Smith's revitalization (being charitable) of the character and then..whatever the hell was going on just before the new 52?) so...yeah, lost my point, but you're right overall. Here's hoping Lemire can figure out the character a bit. Nocenti said she had issues with nailing him down while she was working on it.
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I misspoke in my above comments, I didn't want to insinuate that Green Arrow the character had struggled, but that the Green Arrow standalone books had.


Oh, I knew you used it correctly, I was just giving you crap for such a fancy word.

My memory of Crisis on Infinite Earths has been wiped out in a flashpoint. See what I did there? ;-) I grimmaced at every issue of Crisis, but enjoyed a lot of New Teen Titans, so I remember their names fondly from those issues.

If you want to get technical, both Smallville and Arrow are incredibly guilty of cartoonish TV law. No criminal these vigilantes bring in could be prosecuted if the vigilantes aren't there to testify to the behavior they witnessed. And if the police accept the vigilantes' help, then the vigilantes become agents for the authorities and they're also violating Miranda rights. So it's just easier to give Quentin his "socko!" and pretend that moronic "I don't have to read him his rights" comment meant some other cop would do it, lest we fall down the legalese rabbithole.

Holy crap, I just realized that it's taken them less than 2 years from the New 52 reboot to have to RE-reboot Green Arrow, holy crap that's bad. It is a great time for newcomers to jump into that book since it obviously will just get canned in a handful of issues. Why can't DC keep their house in order? Oh, right, because they're DC. All they should do is take Golden/Silver Age Green Arrow as the character origin, and The Dark Knight Returns Green Arrow as the character finale, mix in a little Bronze Age angst and extrapolate from there. Oh, and then cancel the book because readers just won't care anyway, the guy is merely an archer, nobody likes Hawkeye either. :-P
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Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah re: rebooting GA for a second time in less than 2 years (Nocenti's run wasn't really a reboot, but Lemire taking it over very much is). But I doubt they're going to can it given that they put Lemire on it. Oliver being in the about to launch Justice League of America title may also indicate a desire to keep that book alive. (And, hey, the new Hawkeye book is really good.)

And vigilantes and cop stories always operate in legal "Well that wouldn't work anyway" vein. I actually remember an episode or two of Batman: TAS where because the villains were caught by Batman and not the police, they either were released or were just shipped off to Arkham not as prisoners but like wards of the state, with no prosecution. Of course, that was just the exposition for the episode before they committed a new crime, but the acknowledgment was nice.
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That rambling mess is meant to convey that it wasn't a great episode for me but not terrible. I didn't feel fully engaged by some of it, and was put off by some of the goofier stuff, but largely it was what it was.
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I'm a bit surprised at the comments here...

I thought this was a great episode.

Finally the plot is moving into a place where this show can get to another level of storytelling. Finally they are integrating the cast with each other as oppossed to giving them seperate storylines, which at times makes it seam like they are all on different shows.

Also, so much was revealed to Oliver in this episode, this can only be a good thing moving forward.

I won't say I am all in with ARROW just yet, but this episode was a step in the right direction.
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I forgive this show its common silly lines and Oliver climbing buildings amazingly fast and even him always appearing and disappearing all batman style, but the whole killing thing is really bothering me.

He kills like 20 henchmen but leaves the main villain alive. In the beginning he killed couple of them but used that to gather evidence to put the villain behind bars. Why not just kill the villain? Less lives taken and the real problem solved...

It's bordering on ridiculous and it's becoming an Expendables movie where henchmen die left and right. The body count must be about a 100 now, right? And then when they call Oliver a killer it really is weird and doesn't really register. Because he kinda really kills a lot but those kills are NEVER stressed out that in a way are not supposed to matter in the first place.

It would be SO MUCH BETTER if he would not kill any henchmen but then catch the villain, say "You have failed this city" and kill HIM. That would put some weight on the "killer" thing and it would be warranted and the whole vigilantism, killing for greater good idea could be explored. Now it's just silly.
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Yeah. Someone should introduce 'Person of Interest' to Oliver.
Although that might result in some arrows to the knee (reference alert).
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At least Reese could teach Oliver more hand-to-hand techniques (besides the Bane-esque neck-breaker that he used to use earlier in the season when fighting out-of-costume). I realize that GA wouldn't be GA without the bow, but the only time he's specifically not used it when close-fighting as Arrow (that I can recall) was last week when he was still under the influence of Vertigo. Firing off the arrows when in very close quarters with multiple foes is just starting to push the envelope a little more toward unrealistic than I think the show's creators would intend, given their bent toward a Nolanverse-style real-world presentation.
C'mon, GA, your name's Oliver Queen, not Legolas Greenleaf. :)
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I honestly think that between Nolan's Batman and Smallville's Superman, this GA is somewhere in the middle. There's too much required leaps of faith, cliches and bad dialogue to say it's closer to Nolan.
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Green Arrow + Person of Interest = Skyrim
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Nicely put! Haha
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Do we know how many of those fallen guys are dead though?
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a big fast freakin arrow from a strong compound bow punched into the center of the chest is pretty much guaranteed fatal.
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A lot of those shots weren't center hits, and there are survivable areas of the center of the chest, just right of the heart for example. The problem is that without a ton of gimmick arrows, Ollie is always going to cause a ton of human injury and death - it's inherent in the character. So do you A-Team it, do you kill 'em, or do you maim 'em?
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not a compound bow its a recurve
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Last time I even mentioned this, I got yelled at -- "Oh, he's not killing anyone!" so I decided to just leave it alone. ;)

I should note, as others have, that even if they get arrow'd they may not be dead. Because apparently Deadshot's not dead. So all those guys? Probably alive. Or in limbo. Or hospitalized. Who the hell knows.
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I thought that too. But they wouldn't lose consciousness after an arrow shot, so they must be dead I guess.

Also, I must have forgotten but why then is Oliver called a killer? Who did he kill?
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I have no idea. None.
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The very first time out, before wearing the hood--in the pilot when he was kidnapped by the Merlyn-Moira goons. He killed the leader stating that no one could know his secret.

Quentin has been after him ever since calling him a killer.

I guess it's kind of hard to kneecap someone (the way Reese does on Batman--er, Person of Interest) with an arrow, but after all of his posturing about it a few episodes ago, my guess is Oliver shoots something equally as incapacitating. We'll probably find out more about this in the very near future when flashback-Oliver chooses the bow as his weapon.

(Speaking of that first time out, in this episode when Tommy went to Oliver to whine about being jealous of the Hood, I was waiting for him to ask Oliver point-blank about having seen him fight their captors back then. Remember, he peeked?)
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Why didn't he just kill Vanch at the beginning? He didn't have any problems getting reed of his men so why not just kill him? It really doesn't make sense to me
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Don't fuck with the Borg Queen, Ollie.
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She's only the stand-in Borg Queen, a pretender to Alice Krige's throne.
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looked to me like she stained her dress when Arrow bounced into the room and drew down on her.
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I was pleased with this episode (I wasn't disappointed with the last two, just they didn't excite me), I guess this was because I appreciate plot info dump episodes (why I am annoyed at the Vampire Diaries now and hoping against hope that Teen Wolf doesn't suffer the same fate with double the episodes). Yes, I know there were missing obvious references, but, well, we all got them so I think the writers might be trusting us not to need in your face stuff.

Anyway, what I really thought this was good for is a set up for the next few episodes (after all, you know, sweeps), I am very excited about Arrow's confrontation with Moira, which doesn't go well for Arrow (which seems totally correct for me, a woman who gave birth to Oliver when we are getting a wimpy sort of picture of Robert, is clearly going to fight back). I am curious about the female voice I heard in the background, while I know Helena is coming back, I didn't think for a couple of episodes, so I took her out of the running. But if Moira really hurt Oliver, how did Dig get him out without her learning who Arrow really was (and I actually predict that as being a huge relief to Moira, she maybe doesn't know that the Dark Archer is Malcolm rather than just a tool and now she might have a similar weapon in her back pocket). I know it could be Felicity, Laurel or Thea, but that doesn't seem to serve the story at this point.

I don't know that Slade was lying, though I assume he was, but this is the sort of way I prefer the flashbacks. Don't leave as cliff hangars whether Oliver survives...we are watching the other part of the show, five years in the future. The trust issues, how Oliver learns, and how he becomes that scragglie guy we saw in the pilot those are what we want to see.
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The more I watch this show I am very glad that Liam McIntyre won the role of "Spartacus" over Steven Amell after Andy Whitfield died. I think they both got the roles they should have gotten. I'm not sure Amell ever would have worked in the role of Spartacus but he is getting better in this role. McIntyre just has more charisma than Amell.

Apparently the writer isn't a fan of "Spartacus"-- as he didn't even give Manu Bennett a mention and this was his first appearance. This was one of the better casting decisions this show has made. Why no love for Crixius?

Ok - so Diggle is using a microphone to listen through the wall to the conversation between Moria and Capt. Jack, sorry Malcolm, and you can clearly understand that the female voice is Moira's but the male voice on the other side of the wall is distorted (???) so (conveniently) Diggle and Oliver don't know that it is Malcolm she is talking to. Did the writers kind of back themselves into a corner in this scene because they couldn't reveal Malcolm? He wasn't distorting his voice in his conversation with Moira yet it was being recorded distorted. Why wouldn't the answer to the question - who is she talking to? - be of utmost importance to Diggle. Kind of strange.
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I laughed my ass off when Crixius showed up. Hopefully they'll show him in action in later flashbacks.
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Me too! He should have started Ollie´s training by asking him "What is beneath your feet?"
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hahah right?
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No mention of Manu Bennett's other work because I don't watch Spartacus. It's pretty much that simple. Not an issue of being a fan or not, just because I don't watch the show.
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It's the 3rd or 4th best show on TV (after Breaking Bad, Homeland, and maybe Game of Thrones).
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I did sort of roll my eye at the Malcolm distorting voice thing, or at least neither Oliver or Dig questioning it.

I agree, Stephen Amell is getting so much better. I kind of feel like some director just came up to him and said, dude, you are very charming, try and use some of that in Oliver.
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Great review. This episode had great moments (flashbacks, the ending) but sadly again a lot of annoying/unrealistic dialogue, cliche and the lacking of attention to detail. Why didn't they reference Tommy's daddy/trust issues? Why not reference Diggle's old friend turning a bad guy just a couple episodes ago? Diggle was in a very similiar situation like Oliver back then and they could have just thrown a reference line in for the sake of it. And why not reference that Laurel stole the phone in the first place?
It's also a shame that the flashback sequences seem to be filmed in one block before the actual episodes so they seem to not have enough material to fill in more flashback scenes into the episodes. So far the flashbacks provide the only intriguing plot which spans the whole season but it's never more than 5 minutes per episode.
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That part about Slade Wilson claiming that he is not the mad man, or what I assumed was Deathstroke, was a bit of a surprise. Wilson might of course be lying, but there's also a chance that Slade Wilson will become Deathstroke later on. And the guy who tortured Oliver is in fact Wilson's partner who just has a sadistic streak.
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Slade having a partner isn't totally out of the question, they could be leaning on Slade's DCU history say by taking one of the incarnation of Ravager who's costume mirror's Deathstroke's and then be the guy that tortured Ollie, although that seems unlikely.
The Deathstroke mask is one of the little things about the show that irks me. Slade only started wearing the half black, half orange mask after his eye was removed basically telling everyone "I might only have one eye and absolutely no depth perception but I'm still better than you." Slade still has two eyes so the mask should all orange or all black.
But on the other hand the show has recently managed to get rid of another little irk, they've finally turned the water off in the arrow cave, maybe that was something to do with Tommy's remodelling upstairs.
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It certainly makes us rethink that arrow in the mask at the start of the pilot, which I only yesterday realized was likely a reference to when Green Arrow stabbed Deathstroke in the eye in the comics. I'm a bad nerd.
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Episode was good-ish. Was way more dragged down by the Cyrus plot than you were. It was "cliched as hell" and I kept waiting for something more interesting to happen with it, but, nope, just going to kidnap the girl. Whatever.

But the other stuff was fine. Dug the last scene a lot. Tingles.
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They couldn't have filled in more cliches with the prison references, whine drinking, knife-hugging (apparently you immediately die from a 2 inch knife cut losing tons of blood in 30 seconds) and whatnot. Such a waste of an actor like him....
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I'm always in favor of whine and drinking.
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I liked the episode, but I definitely agree with you that David Anders' talents were wasted in this episode - and Seth Gabel (last week?) If they're going to get good actors, I wish they'd give them something worth their time. I remember Anders from Alias - he was freaking awesome.
I liked Quentin more here at least - they seem to be sending him down a very dark and rather self-destructive path. It mirrors Oliver's path in many ways as they're both obsessive at this point, and that could make for an interesting storyline later. Laurel however... I am just not a fan. I like Dinah Lance/Black Canary, but I don't like this actress or her potrayal of the character, and I don't think that's going to change for me. Casting this actress for the role was an epic fail IMO - she just never seems natural in the role. She has good posture and shiny eyeshadow, and she's quite the overactor, and it makes me want to change the channel. It bothers me because I really did want to like her. I guess that's harsh, so enough said and moving on. Most of the casting has been good though - I find Moira, Diggle and Felicity very believable in their roles. Amell has done a good job of showing us two very different Olivers - weak Oliver on the island and the Oliver we see now.
She and Tommy do seem rather like they're on an Arrow spinoff, don't they? I liked getting Tommy's view of the Hood here. I'm also hoping Tommy gets some more interesting material - maybe after the club opens? I keep wondering now if it's Tommy or his father who will ultimately be Oliver's great nemesis. If the Hood guy kills his father, that could definitely send Tommy down a different path - especially after what apparently happened to his mother. And it seems that her death was the catalyst that sent Malcolm down his current path, so I'm wondering just what his ultimate plans are and how much of a villain he really is.
I was happy to see Diggle doing something more than standing around in this episode. He is so great and he's such a good influence on both Oliver and his alter ego. He throws truth at him, and he makes him take another look at things and question things. I really want to see more of that. In fact, I wondered why he didn't say anything about the fact that Oliver apparently took down 6 or 7 guys just to spy on Vanch? I mean, at that point there was no evidence - he was just trying to GET some evidence - and so for Laurel, it's ok to kill a bunch of people to help her do her job? Kind of a WTF moment for me especially after all that business with Helena and what he had to say to her. This show is all over the place with regard to when it's ok to kill vs. when it's not ok - they need to do better.
As a vigilante, I expect to see Oliver in a moral grey area on this topic, but this episode seemed over the top in that regard, and the killings on his first trip to the mansion seemed unnecessary. I really hope Felicity is in on his secret soon because she would be another good influence I think - and she also comes out and says what she's thinking, but her approach is different. Diggle and Felicity would make a great team for him, and after last week it seems that's the direction the show is headed. Plus, Felicity and Oliver play very well off each other - I'm still laughing about his ridiculous lies from last week, and that end scene at the cafe was so good. She doesn't buy his BS, and he knows it - he seems more real around her and Diggle.
Looking forward to next week though - this week's ending was great, wasn't it? I can't wait to see how Oliver and Moira deal with each other now that her shadier activities are coming to light. I want to know just how involved she is and how much of it is voluntary vs. under duress to protect her family.
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I'm eager for Felicity's involvement in the costume aspect, it has to be happening soon, right? I feel like, based on the promos, it has to happen next week? I mean, that was one well put together promo, and I swear that Diggle was talking to someone in the cave during it, and who else could it be?!
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I tend to miss the promos since I'm living abroad at the moment and have to download. But I just found the promo on YT and I believe you're correct! Diggle is definitely talking to somone. So excited..... Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity working together is going to be good!
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My 2 favourite scenes of episode: Moira throwing that book into fire and Ollie's reaction to it and LAUREL GETTING TASERED! :D(you should put that gif into review of Laurel getting tasered:D )

It's Crixus(Manu Bennett) from Spartacus and Kate(Agam Darshi) from Sanctuary! And David Anders from so many shows! :D All 3 in one episode. I liked that joke Crix...I mean Slade Wilson made about swords:D It was a hint to Manu's character, Crixus and not just about Deathstroke,right?

I also like this "you have failed this city" the most out of all of them.
So why was Merlyn's Sr. voice muffled on Diggle's recording? All in all,thought it was great episode and one of better ones of Arrow.
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Am a bit confused right now, how many Deathstrokes are there?
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According to Slade, two people wear that mask. Fyers said that two criminals remained on the island - Yao Fei and the guy that tortured Ollie. Assuming that guy *was* Aussie Secret Service and that he had a partner to whom he was close enough with to have matching bespoke uniforms, you could see why that partner might sneak onto the island to try to get him back. However, can you trust *anyone* on the island? Yao Fei seemed like a mentor to Ollie. Fyers could have simply made up the number of criminals on the island based on the ones Ollie (and the audience) would find recognisable. Slade is a mysterious character that, when he shows his face, accuses others of lying. What if he's lying?

Personally, I reckon Slade's lying. Fyers is clearly a mercenary leader and out to make money. I imagine that he offered all of the dangerous criminals a chance to join him. Since they would no longer be on the island, he'd get paid for removing the island's criminal threat. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's a drug operation somewhere on the island that China White is involved in like the Green Arrow Year One comics. Fyers hunting down criminals is really him protecting his investment in the drug trade, with the Chinese government's secret island purge being a convincing cover for why he's there and needs an army.

I think that both Yao Fei and Slade Wilson are prisoners on the island. Both saw joining Fyers as a way off. When Ollie got sealed in that cave a few episodes back, that was Yao Fei brokering a deal with Fyers to give him Ollie in return for a spot on his team. Slade, whom Yao Fei knew before he joined Fyers, vouched for him, remembering how they promised to get each other off the island. Fyers lets some of his men do what they want, including letting Slade chill in his plane, partly because you don't want your lieutenants turning on you and partly because he knows what they are capable of. Lots of guesswork, but sort of plausible based on the show's logic. I think.
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thanks buddy
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Thanks buddy.... for the in-depth analysis
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I like your thoughts as they're quite consistent with the way the show went so far.
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According to what Slade said two, at least on the island. He made it seem as if all the guys in his unit wore that mask to conceal their identities. But who is the real Deathstroke, and was Slade lying? I think that's what the show wants us to keep guessing.
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I like the fact that Laurel took out two men, hopefully we'll see a Black Canary thing going on if this series lasts long enough. What bothered me IS that it took Oliver so long to suspect his mother. After being hunted for a number of years on an island, you probably wouldn't trust anybody.
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It didn't bother me. I imagine that, despite everything that happened over 5 years, he's sort of enshrined Moira and Thea as how he remembered them as a way to cope with things, and that attitude is carrying over here.
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"Fletcher" (one who crafts arrows) would be an original and appropriate codename for Diggle...
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I can see where you're coming from, Noel, about this episode and where the show is going as a whole. Granted, a lot of the main characters still have awkward side missions that don't fit in with the rest of the show. Tommy oddly played a protective/jealous boyfriend in this episode and Thea had a brief scene in the beginning that was mostly there to introduce a completely new character, who will be working with Thea and has a somewhat similar background. Maybe this will provide Thea with one friend who won't be shoving drugs in her face. And while it's a step in the right direction that Thea now works with Laurel, "Arrow" still has a lot of work to do in order to make this show flow together smoothly, with each character's storylines working together, not randomly bumping and scraping against each other, or feeling so separate from each other that, as you pointed out, we may as well be watching multiple shows.

But I still think that "Arrow" is doing a pretty good job of pushing itself forward at a surprisingly fast pace, while still managing to keep a handle on all of its plots and characters. In this episode, for instance, Cyrus brought up the fact that there is a power vacuum left over from the two now-leaderless crime families that went to war several episodes ago. And while he did get arrested at the end of this episode (though this review did a good job of pointing out that the Miranda rights need to be said in order for an arrest to be legal, though usually this will only hold up in court if the defendant has a reliable eye-witness, recording, or footage of the arrest, which Cyrus could have but I doubt it) I find it very important that he didn't die. This show has seen its fair share of bad guys, but of the more traditional villains, most of them have been killed by Oliver (though apparently Deadshot is alive, even though he took an arrow to the head...yeah). By my count we have Malcolm/Dark Archer, the Count, China White, Deathstroke and Deadshot (I still don't see how they're going to explain that one) still alive. And of course Cyrus, who's now in jail, though that's never stopped anyone from running a criminal empire, which is what I hope he'll do.

So what I see here is that "Arrow" is slowly building itself a rogues gallery of villains, each one unique in their own way, and each one tested on this show against the hood. And hopefully down the line at some point, once the list has been taken care of, the case of the week will usually, or at least often, revolve around one or more of these staple enemies. Because it is a bit of a buzzkill when an episode will introduce a cool new character, only to have them shot to death by our hero, with maybe a few parting words or some distinctive act for us to remember them by.

But with regards to Cyrus, I'm almost certain he'll return to some degree. As I've stated above, my hope is that he'll start running a criminal empire from behind bars. Or he may break out of jail. Regardless, he is the perfect candidate to take over organized crime in the city. First of all, none of the other villains on this show are a good fit for that role. China White, Deathstroke, and Deadshot are all either enforcers or assassins. The Count is too crazy and unpredictable for something like that, and Malcolm is all about being a business titan. And second of all, Cyrus is both smart and cunning. Sure, kidnapping Laurel was a very cliche thing for him to do, but at least he's one of the few villains on this show who's been proactive in stopping the hood. The only other person who's done anything like that is Malcolm as the Dark Archer, but he's already established himself as the big bad of this show, at least so far. But in one episode, Cyrus got out of prison, immediately started putting his organization back together, and came up with a pretty smart plan to take down the one person who was getting in his way, which would have worked if Oliver had been working alone that night. Anyway, I'll be very glad when/if Cyrus returns, because even if he doesn't become a badass kingpin, I'm a big fan of David Anders.

Throughout this first season, I have admired the show's decision to create intricate backstories, characters, organizations, and plots, as well as its decision to keep the audience reminded of these things. A lot of shows seem to have a zero sum mind, in that anything that happens in an episode will be done with and forgotten by the time the next episode comes along. So when Oliver revealed that he was the captain of a Russian crime organization, I didn't expect that to come up again so soon, or that he would return to Starling City's headquarters of said organization. And again, in this episode the gang war was brought up again. I have constantly admired this show for keeping these little things on the show, even if they're only brought up in conversation. And it is for this reason that I forgive "Arrow" for often using some of its main characters poorly, since it genuinely seems like the writers have good ideas and plans for them in future episodes. And while I'd like to see Thea do some good things right now, I can appreciate that now that she works for Laurel, and happens to be looking through old files, she'll probably get involved with much more interesting storylines. And for the most part this makes her breakdown worth it, which if you recall started with her getting in everyone's business as usual (because she doesn't have any of her own) and resulted in her doing her "I hate you everybody" thing before crashing her car while on drugs.

I'm not saying that "Arrow" is phenomenal or anything. I'll be the first to admit that this show has issues. In this episode, for instance, I found it extremely unlikely that Diggle's recording of Moira and Malcolm having their secret conversation had some very peculiar issues. Not only was the name they mentioned blocked out or some reason, but Malcolm's voice sounded like he had borrowed one of Oliver's voice modulators. I can see why the writers did this, since they don't want Oliver and Diggle to realize right away how involved Moira is, and they want to hold off Oliver discovering that Malcolm is in on it to, does that doesn't excuse the ridiculousness of their decision to make the recording so conveniently spotty. For a moment I even considered the fact that Diggle must have altered it himself, but that would make no sense for a multitude of reasons. So yes, "Arrow" has its problems. But so far they've done a good job of growing their stories and characters, without leaving anyone or anything completely forgotten. And this has happened regardless of the fact that the show has gone through about five finale worthy scenarios, as it continues to move forward to its actual finale, which I expect at this point should be crazy, crazy cool.
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The Malcolm voice distortion irked me a great deal, and it's one of those contrivances for the sake of narrative pacing that felt poorly thought out. I tried to come up with some rationalization for it, but unless Malcolm has a little buffer field of some sort surrounding his desk (which STILL doesn't make sense), it was just a weird, silly thing to do.
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Yeah, I considered Malcolm having a voice shield as well. But even if that were the case, which I agree doesn't make sense (since instead of going to the trouble of getting a field that only distorts your voice if you're in a small area of the room, you'd probably just have a field that would block anyone from hearing anything), it still doesn't explain how that name was blocked over as well, since Moira said it as well. The whole thing really irked me as well.
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Your comments, while good, are so long. Are you angling to get a job here with these loooooooooooooooong comments?
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Nope. I just usually have a lot to say so my comments tend to be long. If they offered me a job just from writing comments that would be cool, but at the same time so incredibly unlikely. Though I did get a job at Ben and Jerry's once by making my own ice cream and handing it out for free at the entrance to their main factory, without ever once actually applying for a job, so you never know.
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""I'm the vigilante. You're the cop." "Doesn't mean I have to read the bastard his rights, though." ACTUALLY QUENTIN, IT DOES. Unless you'd like the arrest tossed out on a technicality? I mean, you have a lawyer in the room, for Pete's sake."

That lawyer in the room would say "You don't have to read the criminal his rights to arrest him. You have to read him his rights to interrogate him."
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And the smartass commenter in the thread would say, "Quentin's comment didn't have a temporal component to it, only that he wasn't going to read the guy his rights, so your desire to be the smartest commenter in the thread just makes you look overeager and hypercorrective in an instance that didn't require it."

But kudos!
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You do all know,that lawyer in room was Laurel,right???? Read my lips LA-UR-EL aka Hypocrite, aka Bitch,etc.

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No, the lawyer in the room or anywhere else would say you have to read the suspect his rights at the time of the arrest. Not to mention that pistol whipping an unarmed suspect while affecting the arrest is an unlawful use of force. I hope Quentin realizes that this vigilante he's obsessed with catching not only saved his daughter (again) but also saved his ass by preventing him from shooting the suspect.
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No, actually I just read about this in an article on TV Myths surrounding police shows and the miranda is only needed at the time of questioning, not at the time of arrest.
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I suggest you find a more reliable source, like an actual police detective or an attorney. Taking someone in for an interview or questioning is one thing, but it is the actual arrest, whether after questioning or at the scene, which requires the Miranda rights. Some cops do it during the ride to the precinct, some at the booking, some just before the interrogation, but it must happen before any interrogation can begin. it's the words "you are under arrest" that kicks in Miranda.
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Google "Arrest without Miranda" and read the first article listed from usgovinfo. they lay out the rules pretty plainly. (Since the original post with the link was removed)
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this part pretty much sums it up as well: "Q. Can police arrest or detain a person without reading them their Miranda rights?

A. Yes, but until the person has been informed of his or her Miranda rights, any statements made by them during interrogation may be ruled inadmissible in court."
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I liked the little touch of Tommy basically saying to Ollie he hates everyone lying to him and Ollie had that kind of "yeah, bro, that totally blows..." look on his face.
At first it seemed like Diggle would end up a sort of Alfred to Ollie's Batman (Come on, someone! Give him a proper name! It's like the 3 seasons Superman was called some variation of "the Blur") but he's becoming more like the Falcon to his Captain America.
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I'm fine with Oliver being called the Hood and the Vigilante. I suspect they're holding back on a more proper name (ie Green Arrow (despite it being "lame" according to Oliver)) until he's ready to more fully claim that hero title.
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I think it made sense,to call Clark red-blue-blur,since that is all people saw. Might be crazy name,but it made sense.
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True, but at the same time...would a newspaper be that lazy in coming up with a catchy name? I think that's what bugged me. Not calling him Superman? Sure, I can get that.

I'm cool if they work towards calling Ollie The Archer. The Hood is ok, but I semi-hope he ditches the hood eventually, and The Vigilante is just way too vague.
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Cyrus should be back. I hope it isn't another technicality and he escapes or something p, because that would be lame. If he doesn't, he was wasted.

Other than that, the best part of the episode was that Thea wasn't on much. The rest was kind of off for me. And how is Cyrus the first guy that figured The Hood only carried 24 arrows?
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More disturbing... how did he know that "the Hood" couldn't take down any of his minions without expending any ammo? Had Ollie whacked on of those guys on the back of the head with a rock on the way in, wouldn't he have felt stupid when Ollie walked in with an arrow left in the quiver?
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I just watched the scene again, and Ollie is such a typical rich kid. Did not once bother to pick up any of his toys for reuse. He actually stabbed a guy in the chest, then just left the blade in there and walked away.

Also, wow, was that house soundproof! How did they not hear any of those guns going off outside?
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It's not that the house was soundproof, Cyrus could hear all the gunfire and explosions and just didn't care.
He had all those "impenetrable" lines of defense and if somehow they failed to be as impenetrable as he thought he still had goon #25 to act as backup. So all the noise outside was just Cyrus' defenses working as planned so why would he be worried about a little noise?
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The storming of the mansion was ridiculous. Decent action, yes, but he didn't really need any help until the last second, so I was a bit lost as to why Quentin needed to tag along. I mean, if you can take down goons while suffering from Vertigo, you should be okay, really.

But action sequence logic is, I admit, the least of my concerns for the show.
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Yeah, the storming of the mansion was ridiculous on so many levels, not the least of which would result in the hostage being killed at the first sound of gunfire. The action sequencies are an integral element of a show like arrow, and "logic be dammed" is annoyingly present in too much of the Arrow's writing.
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I know. Though watching Arrow's gymnastic action sequences are kindda fun, none of it made any sense. The number of arrows in the quiver thing was ridiculous. Even if Oliver didn't take any arrows for reuse how would anyone defending a position from attack take for granted he wouldn't. Or thinking the number of arrows must always remain the same. Definitely no Einstein, and that sort of tactical thinking could be defeated by a kid with a slingshot.
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-->Jonathanstrac "Yeah, it's a stretch. I kind of want Cyrus to be a genius."

Well, yeah, right there, summed up your problem. Was there even a mention of CCTV? I really do not recall one.
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#Jonathanstrac, I don't buy the Cyrus as a tactical genius bit. We can come up with as many rationalizations as we want in our discussion, but a villian assuming so much for granted in defending a position is just weak and lazy on the part of the writers.

Not to mention there was no sign of command and control. Even if Cyrus had delegated command to someone else, all the guys Oliver took out seemed to be in static sentry positions or running toward Oliver with no coordinated defense. Even the snipers were standing in plain sight instead of firing from concealment. And only one guy in the house? Not very realistic.
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Ollie never takes arrows out. It's kind of become his calling card - some baddie sees a body with an arrow sticking out and they're scared, because they know who they're dealing with immediately. Dark Archer used this earlier, knowing that a guy dying with 'puncture wounds' which needed to be CSI'd before coming back as 'arrow wounds' would take time. Having a body with arrows sticking out of it got the news people raving about 'The Hood' murdering someone, getting the real vigilante's attention.

Cyrus didn't just watch one news report. As soon as he set his sights on the vigilante, he got all of the possible intel he could. Various news reports, CCTV footage, public sightings etc. Cyrus is a tactical genius. He figured the vigilante to be a creature of habit and so learned his habits. Since probably noone knows how the vigilante's fight with the Dark Archer went, it would be a case of 'if it isn't broken, why fix it?' Ollie seems genuinely surprised to have run out of ammo, suggesting that it's never happened before. Unfortunately for the bad guy, working solo isn't one of the vigilante's tactics that carried over to the final battle. Yeah, it's a stretch. I kind of want Cyrus to be a genius. Until we get a notion of his fighting skills, it's the only way he can be a match for Ollie in the long run.
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Really great review Noel. You hit all the pertinent elements and I agree with your take on them all. Including your comments regarding Tommy, Laurel, Quentin, and particularly Diggle, who was given more to do in this episode than merely being Oliver’s sounding board. As you say the way the show uses him makes one forget he’s a competent guy in his own right. I thought this episode got somewhat closer to a usable template, but agree they’re still struggling with the proper mix of all the ingredients.

“"Doesn't mean I have to read the bastard his rights, though." ACTUALLY QUENTIN, IT DOES. Unless you'd like the arrest tossed out on a technicality? I mean, you have a lawyer in the room, for Pete's sake.”

Maybe that’s why the writing on this show hasn’t been able to get one over the plate yet. They don’t seem to be paying much attention to little details. Maybe, as you mentioned, wanting to “dig into larger concerns”, only to end up missing the trees for the forest, and visa versa.
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Failure to read Miranda rights does not invalidate an arrest. It only invalidates state evidentiary use in court of statements elicited through interrogation of the arrestee/defendant by the state (police and prosecution), where such interrogation occurs after arrest and prior to reading of those rights. Often, defendant admission or self-incriminatory statement evidence is unnecessary to the successful prosecution of a criminal case. In other words, the other evidence by itself seals guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. In "Betrayal", it's doubtful that the success of any prosecution of Cyrus Vanch for murder and kidnapping will hinge on any statements he might make to the police. There are eyewitnesses to the kidnapping (surely the victim, Laurel, and Quentin would testify), and there's the recording Vanch left in Oliver's arrow. And as to the murder of the homeowner, further investigation would probably yield enough forensic evidence to go with the circumstantial evidence, to sustain a prosecution against Vanch. Vanch might have even spoken freely about the murder in Laurel's presence during her kidnapping. And Laurel could testify to any such statements, under the "defendant admission" exception to the hearsay rule. So to sum up, ACTUALLY, QUENTIN IS RIGHT.
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I forgot to add that, at some point, a police officer certainly would read Miranda warnings to Vanch after his arrest, since murder and kidnapping charges would be involved, and there would be an attempt to interrogate Vanch. It just doesn't HAVE to be done. And if it is done, which it would be, Quentin Lance doesn't have to be the person to do it, nor does it have to be done IMMEDIATELY following arrest.

Further, after being Mirandized, Vanch could refuse to answer questions and/or request an attorney. These two options differ in resulting issues dealing with further attempts at interrogation, and I won't get into them, for sake of simplicity. But the point is that Vanch doesn't have to verbally respond to state interrogation.

Additionally, the Miranda rights are called as such for a reason, that being the U.S. Supreme Court case, Miranda v. Arizona, 384 U.S. 436 (1966).
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Agreed. You've made my point. I think we're just talking past each other regarding this issue since we're essentially saying the same thing. My comment was not about Quentin being correct or incorrect but about the writing. I should have been more clear.
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See my comment up above about what the captions reveal. They've made some post-completion edits in the interest of trying to make the script tighter. Sometimes it helps avoid a minor plot hole or being overly trite, but they still need to bring someone in like Jonathan Nolan to at least give them some pointers on how to actually develop the dialogue, not just edit it. (Heck, they've either borrowed or paid homage to (your choice) the guy's work a number of times anyway, sometimes very well-played (Felicity as a spin on the Nolanverse Lucius Fox, for example, has worked really well). But at least they could take some more style notes, too.)

If the script were awful, the show would quickly become unwatchable. But it's the shows huge potential that keeps me coming back. That and playing "find the in-jokes."
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I think Quentin's line was more of a zinger that they just loved too much not to include, logic be damned. Could be read as a symptom of what you describe, but I think things like Cyrus's mention of counting the quiver's contents or the CI from last week are examples of the show using patches so they can get to the bigger ideas.
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Agreed. Though the patches only make the holes more obvious, and there's still a bunch of conceptual confusion in executing the bigger ideas too.
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I stopped commenting on this show because I'm hoping for greener pastures when Arrow hopefully finds its legs in season 2, but there I was...sitting, watching, quietly lamenting the episode with half an eye, then, all the sudden, Ollie busts out the longbow on mom and I find myself all interested again.

Oh, & yay flashback Crixus!
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Presumably either Cyrus or his girlfriend will be back. After all, they're the ones that have a mole in the police department. If they're out of the picture, there's no mole. Unless it's a freelance mole selling information to any criminals...
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Gotta make a living somehow.
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At least the series moves its plots along. We got Diggle finding out Oliver is The Hood early on. Oliver becomes a hero rather than just a vigilante in a few weeks. We had the book revealed last week, and this week we've already got Oliver ready to hunt down his mother by the end of this episode. Say what you will, they don't spend weeks and months spinning their wheels with these plots. Unlike, oh, say, Smallville. There's very few filler episodes, because every episode brings something important in or resolves it shortly thereafter.
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