Once Upon a Time "The Queen Is Dead" Review: Birthday Girl

Once Upon a Time S0E15: "The Queen Is Dead"

Am I crazy, or has OUAT never been better? Maybe it's my adjusted expectations, but in the last couple episodes, the show has really been on a roll with making things happen. Sure, the dialogue is still insanely awful (Henry on NY Pizza: “It’s delicious, cheesy, and doesn’t lie.”) but at least we’re spending all our time with the main characters these days, give or take Johanna.


Oh, poor innocent Johanna. She didn’t get a moment’s peace this episode. Baby Snow bitched her out for trying on her tiara before her big Quinceanera celebration, and her mom made it this big learning moment for Snow. 

Turns out the good queen had remarkably progressive ideas about royalty and equality and whatnot that I’m pretty sure no royal has ever had, but, you know, whatever. Then halfway through her speech she slumped over and Johnna had to nurse her and summon the doctor and half the staff of Medieval Times to help and then she had to get Snow dressed up in, like, a Lolita baby blue lacy ensemble just to take a stroll in the woods and then hurry and dye Snow’s Quinceanera gown black when the party became a funeral. That’s a lot of costume changes for one day. I mean, what WAS the timeframe of the flashbacks? Her party wasn’t canceled, it just became a funeral, right? Or it was canceled? How long was her mom sick?

It did make me laugh that the Good Queen didn’t take off her shoes when she was recuperating on the bed, she was still wearing her little platforms. They also made an appearance at her funeral. I don’t know why, just made me smile.

And then in the real world, after this happened...

...Snow and Charming changed into appropriate all-black ensembles too, I’m assuming, straight up buried the body in the graveyard without bothering with a headstone or embalming, presumably. Or was Storybooke’s storyline going a couple weeks at a time and Emma and Neal and Rumple in New York were moving through a single day?

I mean, to sail from Storybrooke to New York City and track the three of them down while wearing a leather tuxedo seems like it would take at a bare minimum four hours.

OUAT is sort of conceptual. You have to just let it wash over you and remember that once you start questioning the logic of the show, you’re doing more work than the handsomely paid writing staff has, and that’s not fair. Just let the insane costumes and concepts take over, like music sung in a language you don’t know. It’s pure spectacle. That’s the only way not to rip your hair out and scream, “Wait if there’s no magic outside Storybrooke how can Hook use magic, incurable poison?! How?!”

I did love that when Hook finally did track down Rumple, he just kicked Emma straight in her kidneys and then sank his hook into Rumple. And then she clobberd him with a trashcan, I think. It was like the Three Stooges. However Rumple got the biggest gold star for manhandling Henry, who was in full effect last night.

I’d been waiting for someone onscreen to finally shake that boy like a maraca and Rumple is a hero for beating everyone to the punch, despite realizing Henry was wee Bae’s wee boy. Emma didn’t seem to mind too much either, as Henry was being a class-act asshole in his insanely emotionally manipulative way by fawning over the man who left her pregnant in jail.


Looks like Regina will have a whole other parent to deal with now that Neal is coming to Storybrooke (he can steer a ship! He knew Hook! This wasn’t the first time he’d run from home! Can we assume he’s a lost boy then? Or straight-up Peter Pan, which would explain the aging discrepancies? Or will he contact Peter Pan, as played by, I hope and pray, Zac Efron?)


Rumple is going to have a lot to sort out when he gets home, period. Like the pair of dumdums they are, Charming and Snow led Cora and Regina straight to the clock (if they’d never gotten involved, this mother-and-daughter team would have just spent the episode digging out in the woods while wearing pantsuits). And then of course, this happened to poor Johanna:

Poor Johanna. Who, let’s not forget, only got dragged into this mess because she was nice enough to send a birthday gift to Snow. She was apparently doing pretty well for herself since the curse lifted her out of the feudal system. Anyway, it was sort of preposterous that they needed to threaten Snow with killing her mom’s ex-waiting woman to get the dagger. You are two all-powerful witches, basically. We’ve seen Cora drain a lake with a flick of her wrist. Why can’t she just pull the dagger over to her with magic? “Accio dagger!” etc. Why does she need to emotionally manipulate Snow to get the dagger? It makes no sense, but what in this show does? Maybe she just likes the look on Snow’s face when she pushes her to her moral boundaries and then effs her over anyway, I know I do.

Speaking of expressions… I really don’t want to sit here and criticize a child actress, but I feel like I have to point out that Baby Snow is terrifying. TERRIFYING! She had a homicidal grimace on her face almost the whole night. Every time she came onscreen I started getting worried she would glower straight into the camera and pull my soul into the TV. Don't get me wrong, the actress is amazing and gorgeous and I see big things for her. She's just sort of like a little Tilda Swinton in terms of intensity. It's a compliment. She's intense. 

Very intense. Very intense.

I love that Snow has sworn to kill Cora, although now that Cora has the dagger that proposition is infinitely more tricky. The writers inserted a clunky scene where Cora morphed out of her blue fairy disguise and had next week’s episode title as a line of dialogue (clunk, clunk, clunk), but honestly I couldn’t be more thrilled if we keep going this route. Backstory that concerns the main characters and pushes the action forward. Yes. Keep weaving this crazy web OUAT, you’ve caught me.


QUESTIONS:

1. Would killing Cora in essence be good or is all killing bad? Feel free to quote philosophers.

2. Neal: How well does he know Peter Pan?

3. Neal: How did he snag that hot girlfriend?

4. Can anyone explain the timeline of the FTL flashback/Storybrook threads to me?

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I like that idea that Bae is either Peter Pan or a lost boy, but my money is on the latter....
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1. By now we all know someone is going to die in the next episode, and it had better be Cora! The writers dropped a hint with that magical candle that can save a dying person and kill someone else instead. My guess is that Snow will use that candle (perhaps it's in Gold's shop) to save Gold and kill Cora instead. Go for it Snow...it has to be done! And the fallout for commiting this foul deed will be interesting to watch for the character and for her relationship with David.

2. Neal may be Peter Pan, but I think he's probably a lost boy. Peter Pan will likely be revealed at the end of the season or the beginning of next. Bring it on...I have always loved this story!

4. I don't give a rat's ass about the timeline (can I say that on here?). If you're thinking about that kind of thing while watching the episode, then you're missing out on all the fun. It's fantasy, for God's sake, it doesn't need to make logical sense every second. It has its own form of logic. Just go with it!
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HOOK, I'M STILL WAITING TO SEE YOU IN THAT DARK BLUE SNAPPY SUIT. *TAPS FOOT*
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1. Kill Cora. I don't really like her, but seeing her as the miller's daughter who pretends to spin gold will be interesting. But I don't like her as an old lady.

2. How well does he know himself?

3. Because he's lovely. Period. F*** you, Tamara or Tammy or whoever you were. I instantly Didn't Like You.

4. Maybe the evil villains take, like, coffee breaks and just chill and wait for the good guys to do something so that they can do evil things like laugh and throw people out of clock towers.
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What if Bae's journey first took him to another black-and-white dimension- one of the early gangster films? Being the Dark One could have been an advantage in that milieu... and the chance to see James Cagney or Humphrey Bogart is (at least in my imagination) a real treat! Plus, if it was "On The Waterfront", Bae could sail out of there into Neverland...

Or the Errol Flynn pirate movies? That's somewhere he could have met Hook...

Maybe he landed in the black-and-white Kansas of "The Wizard of OZ"? Neatly ties in "our" world and a magical one...

The more I think about this, the more bizarre places I come up with. Maybe I need to get some sleep!
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Hi fellow fans, I may have missed something. Has Emma told Neal that she had given Henry up for adoption, or is he under the impression that she raised Henry?
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Not sure; but I think he doesn't know about Regina yet. THAT will make for an interesting scene!
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Did anyone else think Snow's mom looked a whole lot like Bae's mom?
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Yes! I did, the resemblance is uncanny! I hope the characters aren't supposed to be sisters! That would mean Henry's great-great-grandparents on his Mom's side are the same as his great-grandparents on his Dad's side. (Yes, I had to sketch that out on paper first). :)
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At one point, the heir to the Spanish throne had 11 great-great-grandparents instead of the usual 16, because the royals had intermarried so often. Wish I could remember which one...
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Still can't find the reference: but I'm willing to bet it's one of the crazy ones...
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I just came here to say this:
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-rn1/23382_10151279791895881_1798772524_n.jpg

Emma's face pretty much sums it all up :D
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The thing that annoyed me the most was the backflash to when Baby Snow was younger, even though she's obviously older. They can get away with it for adults, but she was like a foot taller. Maybe she was wearing heels? I dunno.

As for Peter Pan. I totally called it. Maybe he's just a lost boy but Peter would be more interesting.
Maybe it's like Harry Potter and Floo Powder, and he just got out at the wrong grate. He could have easily made his first stop in our world, and Peter could have whisked him away to Neverland at the first drop of a hat. As a kid without a home, he would have been willing to escape for a while. Maybe after he got to our world, he realized how lame a world without magic was and embraced the pixie dust in an attempt to get back to fairy tale world?

Either way....you're right...trying to reconcile this show with itself is much too complicated.
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I've got $10 that says the Good Queen and Cora are sisters and Rumple took one just like with Charming and his brother.
Anyone else notice that the Good Queen was never changed for her funeral? she wore the same dress wandering around the castle that she wore while sick in bed and while on display for the funeral. The only character that didn't get a million costume changes.
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Makes sense- or was it like "Toads and Diamonds" where 1 sister gets rewarded for being nice and the other one gets punished for being mean to a "lowly" old woman who happens to be a mage? I'd really like to see some powerful "good" mages around here. The Blue Fairy hasn't done anything lately, and no one else has shown up to play the Merlin/Gandalf/Glinda role here. I'd love to see sorcerors' duels on Storybrook's main street!

Maybe Greg is scouting for someone like that? *sigh* A girl can dream...
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I like the toads and diamonds theory better than mine. It would be new, and I also would like to see a good wizard/witch. Right now it seems like magic corrupts every one who uses it, and I would like to think that Emma has a chance to stay good if she figures out how to harness the magic in her.
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-Let's go with Utilitarianism. It's for the greater good dammit. Kill her. Kill her now! I actually look forward to where this can head. I blurry line between good and evil. They've pushed Regina more towards morally grey this season, to which Lana Parilla played it excellently, with her being vulnerably and sympathetic as a character despite her being the Evil Queen. Now, it's time to shove our protagonist towards that line of morally grey. I love it. There comes a point in every "good" person's life where they just get tired of playing by the rules when no one else does. You have to get down and dirty with the best 'em just to prove a point. Do it Snow! DO IT!!!
- Pretty darn well! I was screaming Lost Boy the entire episode. I dig it. I dig it. I kinda like Neal, okay maybe it's my love of the actor because...well, he's incredible, like all the time. So I'm enjoying Neal.
-Smarmy charm. Sometimes it works. She's hot. He did well, that Neal. I had a feeling he was attached to someone, so that revelation wasn't too surprising but the look on Emma's face was priceless.
-Yeah, I'm working on it. Just as soon as I finish the freaking family tree, because my God is that thing complicado.
- See I love baby Snow. Okay she had that brief moment when I wanted to smack her for being all mean to Jo, but the actress who plays her is fantastic. She has the mannerisms and everything down, and she has an uncanny resemblance to Ginnifer Goodwin. See she kept making this faces that reminded me of Shirley Temple.
-Great casting for Snow's mom. I can't recall the actress' name offhand but I've seen her in a few things, and the moment I seen her I thought that was perfect casting.
-So, erm, Grandpa and Grandson bonding isn't starting off on the right foot, what with Gramps getting hooked and shaking the kid down. It's a good thing Henry's too old to suffer from Shaken Baby Syndrome because damn. I loved how it went unnoticed too. Responsible parents in the room and what not.
-Regina is going to be so pissed. She went from being the only mother, to being forced to share with the bio mom who gave him up, now there's the bio father, the annoying grandparents, that grumpy grand dad. I mean relatives are popping up left and right. The message this show sends about the adoption process is disheartening.
-I LOVE how Hook refuses to visit Storybrooke's version of Hot Topic for new clothes. He's perfectly content wondering around with his pirate gear. I mean he's racing through NY with leather pants and his pirate coat and a hook, and guyliner, and it's just all good. No one even bats an eye. It's like I want to hate Hook because as far as characters go, he's mostly underdeveloped, lacks a real depth, and he's as they say sex on legs, pretty to look at, but shallow as a rain puddle. But he's hot, he's charming in spite of his arrogance, he's funny as hell, and just mighty fine to look at. I hate how shallow I feel for liking Hook, but I also don't?!
-R.I.P Joanna. I didn't take your death as hard as say...Stealthy. My favourite dwarf I never knew. But you know, it sucked watching you go out the window like that.
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Hook isn't into fashion, I guess; and leather is pretty comfortable once it's worn in. Or maybe he's spending all his paychecks from Cora on the boat? (very guy thing to do)...especially after Belle's visit.

Weren't Emma and Neal trying to find medical supplies while Henry was getting all shook up? Neal might not care, but Emma would be more protective about that.

I like Baby Snow, and I loved Stealthy. I'd like to think that it's Stealthy's soul animating August, since they share a taste for the shady side. (Aren't they both played by the same actor?) If true, this could make for an interesting reunion!

Joanna didn't deserve to be pushed out a window, but I kinda figured Snow wouldn't have a mother figure around for long.

Pretty sure I've seen something an awful lot like Kanniballl's outfit example wandering around Greenwich Village...
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Dude, it was NEW YORK. Hook could have been running around in a pink tutu and a white-powder wig with a marital aide plugged into his arm... and nobody would bat an eye.

A guy in pirate gear in NYC... that's a Tuesday.
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Haha! True that! He's been doing the same in Storybrook though, and that ish don't fly in Maine!LOL! I don't know, part of me is wondering why he won't get a makeover, and another part of me just loves that fact that he just doesn't give a shizz!
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The manipulation of Snow for the dagger is, as I thought it, because Cora vowed to Snow's dead mother to turn Snow's heart dark. By manipulating her to do good and then still have everything taken away, is indeed working, as evidenced from Snow's last words of the episode.

I like the fact that it plays with the viewer. We like bad-ass Snow and have said time and again we want MM to become her again. And we would like nothing better than to kick Cora's and Regina's butt. But now that we get to see that, we can't want to see it because Snow should not forget to be good. I like that paradox. I do wonder though, if that is on purpose. With this show and these writers, I feel hesitant to give them credit for such deep thought, but you never know. It has gotten much better these last episodes, I agree. Moves forward again.
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I don't agree with OUAT never been better, lately I've been asking myself if I should keep watching, and I do love this show (I have never cared about its absolutely absence of logic an its weird concept of time), but lately i feel something is off, I don't know what.
However I agree in 2 things with Miss Lily Sparks:
a) "I’d been waiting for someone onscreen to finally shake that boy like a maraca and Rumple is a hero for beating everyone to the punch, despite realizing Henry was wee Bae’s wee boy." I laughed so hard with this, I didn't realize how much Henry annoys me until I read this (told you I love love love OUAT) that boy is full of... manipulation, I could smack him
b) How AWESOME would be Zac Efron as Peter Pan!!!! Now I'm hoping and praying too!! Please OUAT producers and writers give us that little reward after this not so magical 2nd season!
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Am I the only one who feel Ms Sparks REALLY wanted to make a GIF out of Johanna being thrown out of the clock tower, but couldn't, either out of laziness or because she couldn't get Price Petersen on his cell?
Jen, Tim... could you please help your girl out and show her how to use Photoshop already? Just take 30 minutes of your time for this, and I'm pretty sure she'll be forever thankful...

As for the show - yep, little Bailee Madison acted the crap out of her guest spot as little Snow this week, which was fair, really, since she essentially played a child who was losing her loving mother - no need for restrain here. For sure, great things will come in her future, but hopefully, this is the last time we'll see of her in OUAT - I ain't the only one who noticed how much BIGGER she appeared here compared to her last guest-starring, right? It's not that obvious per say, but you can definitely see she got taller this time around, which was weird, given she was suppose to be younger than on her first appearance! Hey, Lilly's right - logic got no business being involve with that show, but how about steering clear of a potential issue before the writers truly cannot explain it anymorel?

Speaking of illogical stuffs: Hook managing to get to NYC on his boat in less than a day and somehow tracking down Rumple's whereabouts without any assistance whatsoever... Cora and Regina blackmailing Snow to give up the dagger when they could have just as easily thrown HER through the window instead of poor Johanna... Snow and Charming being so damn stupid, not realizing they were leading the witches directly to the dagger... that magical poison working outside of a magical realm... Snow acting like planning to kill Cora is a bad thing, when it's OBVIOUSLY the right thing to do!

On that note...

1. I don't know how most of you feel about comparing tragic real-life events with a show about fairies, dwarfs and dragons, but here goes... Christopher Dorner. Killed a whole lot of innocent people. Acted as if all of those killing were justifiable. When the police finally cornered him, they gave him a choice; either surrender himself or they'll burn down the house he was hiding in. And so they did, even though the coward killed himself before. Now, once again, I know how preposterous it is to compare him to Cora, but, if you have to take Regina's mom as a real person.... killed a whole lot of people. Acted as if each one of those kills were justifiable. Was given a shitload of chances to make amends, and pretty much gave a resounding FU ever time. So... how exactly could you expect Snow to NOT WANT TO KILL HER? The evil bitch is directly responsible for the death of her WHOLE FAMILY, plus a couple dozen of her friends, plus probably a couple thousands of innocent bystanders before this. And you have to add Gigi's death-tally on to her too, since she teached her the dark arts and pretty much gave her HUGE mommy issues, which makes her go baby-crazy more often than she would care to admit. And, as of right now, the two of them are planing to pretty much level Storybrook. So, once again, if Snow's mother expected her to always do the right thing, how exactly NOT TRYING TO KILL CORA the right thing to do here?
Of course it's the right thing to do! Time to kill a bitch, Snow!
2. Pretty sure Neal is Pan. Which bear the question: with all those direct blood connections with so many great heroes and villains from so many fairies tales... shouldn't we expect Henry to be way cooler than he is? I certainly do...
3. That one's easy: Neal managed to get that hot girlfriend cause he looks and talks exactly like Michael Raymond-James. And, if there's one thing I know about ladies, it's that they love that "Terriers" guy. Am I right, ladies? Course I am.
4. Don't have the time... the patience... the energy... the brain power... the mushrooms, cocaine and/or other 'mood enhancers'... to even contemplating explaining this complete clusterfuck. So don't even try, Lilly my dear - you were right, let's just enjoy the ride and not bother asking ourselves too many questions. Hey, you have better things to do then losing neurons trying to figure out the unfigurable, things like, say, learning how to use Photoshop to create kickass GIFs of chicks flying through windows....
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(Johanna is caught trying Snow's tiara.)
Snow: "What are you doing? This is MY tiara. You should be punished by your insolence, you lowly servant."
Good Queen: "No, no, Snow. Every person in our kingdom, noble or commoner, must be treated with love and respect."
Johanna: "I'm sorry, Your Majesty. It won't happen again."
Good Queen: "Shut up, Johanna. Don't contradict me. I'm trying to educate my daughter."
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Am gonna say that Cora and Snow's mom were friends in the hay day. Snow's mom married a king and Cora ended up with some lowly person. While Snow's mom lived it up in castle over the years, Cora was out in the world learning magic from Rumple to take her revenge and to make her and Regina's life a little bit better. That is how am seeing it. At first I thought Snow's mom and Cora could be related but I think that would be a little bit to much.
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Wasn't Henry the Dad a noble? The house, wardrobe, stables- lots higher up the scale than pre-evil Rumplestiltskin! Admittedly, Cora was educating her daughter to shove her higher up the social ladder; and Regina did end up married to the King, who might not have chosen someone unpedigreed.

but Cora's little speech at the bier seemed almost like the sort of thing a wicked stepsister might come up with!
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I'm sorry I just can't get over this one point. I hope someone can explain this to me, seriously. The entire reason Rumpel created the Dark Curse was to be reunited with his son. He created it to take everyone to a land without magic, because that's where the Blue Fairy's bean was taking Baelfire.

The Blue Fairy specifically said that the dark curse would take Rumpel to the the same place Baelfire had been taken. Rumpel knew exactly where the curse would transport him, and he made all the necessary arrangements so that he could find his son once he got there.

He asked Snow for her baby’s name so that Emma could restore his memories when she arrived. He sealed the curse with true love so it could be broken by a kiss. He brought a vial of magic with him so he could unleash it in our world after the curse was broken, because he knew there wouldn’t be any in the land where his son was. Our world was not a guess, it was the only possible destination.

Now, if Bae was transported to Neverland by the bean and NOT our world, how did he wind up here and why? Was it a switch-planes-in-Neverland bean? Is it sheer coincidence that Neal did come to our world at the precise time necessary to make Rumpel's quest fruitful?
What if Rumpel had created the Dark Curse a hundred years ago, moved all the fairytale (and other) characters to Storybrooke, and Bae was still in Neverland? Let’s be generous and say Neal arrived in our world 20 years ago (34 is a reasonable age, no?). That means he was still in Neverland (or some other realm where you don’t age) when the Dark Curse was cast 28 years ago. We know Neal is not a victim of the curse because he never had amnesia, so does that mean people from other realms were unaffected by the curse? And if so, why is Dr. Frankenstein in Storybrooke?

It's just too much. I can't understand this. I would be grateful to anyone who can offer a plausible alternative
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Think I said some of this in another post, but here goes... The Dark Curse couldn't take Rumplestiltskin or anyone else ANYWHERE before it was cast. But Regina's intention of finding a "truly horrible" place were also part of the Curse; she wanted somewhere where Snow and Charming weren't royal, where there was no magic, and where Regina would have her happy ending.

That's quite a lot for one Curse to accomplish. I suspect that it homed in on where Bae was at the time it was cast (Storybrooke's world), because it couldn't go back in time. If Rumplestiltskin were able to turn back time, wouldn't he have tried to get to Bae BEFORE he grew up without his father?

It's also possible that Regina casting the Curse drew Bae from wherever he was to Regina's choice of destination. I figure Bae is closer to 40 than 30 (14 + 28 = 42, but realm-jumping may play a part here)
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Yeah I've thought about the time aspect of it too. If Rumpel thought Bae had gone to a land without magic, woudn't he have presumed him to be dead of old age? Plus little things bother me like: There is a globe that can tell Rumpel what apartment in Manhattan his son lives in, but nothing in all of the magical realms that can tell him his son was actually in Neverland and NOT a land without magic? Because we've seen he was familiar with Jefferson and the hat - he could have gotten to Neverland waaaaay more easily than creating a ginormous curse. Oh well - thanks for trying to help me figure it out. :)
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Best guess is that beans seem to take you to the place that is on your mind, so maybe Bae wasn't thinking of the right thing when he cast it. It would make sense that Bae was thinking of a place where he could escape, and neverland is a place kids go when they want to get away from the troubles in their lives like Peter Pan did. I don't know when Bae finally made it to the real world (when we find out his current age we will deduce how long he's been in our world since his time in neverland would have frozen him at 14). But he probably got to our world the same way Wendy and her siblings went back to the real world. I don't know if anything I said is right, but it's my best guess.
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Oh that's interesting! That would make me feel so much better! Maybe he had missed out on so much of his childhood by having to defend his father the coward or try to rein in his father as the Dark One, and he just wanted to go to a place he could enjoy being a child. It doesn't explain away all the problems, but it would reconcile things enough in my mind to be able to enjoy the storyline. Thank you!!!!
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The young actress playing Snow is worse than terrifying; she's insufferable. I'm sure she's only acting as directed, but sheesh, I have to look away every time she's on screen. Good episode otherwise I guess.
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"Am I crazy, or has OUAT never been better?"

If those are the options, then you're crazy. I thought this was a terrible episode. One of the worst so far. The most cringeworthy moment was when Mary Margaret led Regina and Cora to the dagger and then said (I'm paraphrasing) "Ha-ha! You're too late! Good has defeated evil! The dagger is in my hand, and there's obviously nothing you can do to change that before the two of you die of old age".

This must have been the dumbest thing we've seen any character on TV do this season. Mary Margaret just made the characters on The Following look like geniuses. First she let Regina know that she knew that they were looking for the dagger. Then she led them to the dagger's secret hiding place. What was she going to do exactly? Hide the dagger? It was already hidden. What made her think that she would do a better job than Rump? When Regina and Cora showed up, MM didn't even realize that she'd been played, or that there was nothing she could do to prevent them from taking the dagger. Did the dagger perhaps have the magical property that no one can take it by force or by magic from the person holding it? Even if that's the case, there are lots of ways around it. We just saw one of them.

The vow to kill Cora at the end was just lame. It would have been cool if there had been a chance that it's actually going to happen. But we all know that we are more likely to see monkeys fly out of her butt.
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Well, like mother like daughter, now we'll understand Emma better :p
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While I love the episode, I'm pretty much heartbroken that Neal is engaged, regardless of if Tamara ends up being anyone of importance. He goes from being madly in love with Emma, wanting to take care of her, to letting Pinocchio talk him into leaving her and framing her for stealing the watches, to selling the watches and giving her everything he owns and wanting to know when she's done with her curse-breaking, and then, he just forgets about her and gets engaged. He was probably the only person she's ever trusted in her life. And it's not like she ever did anything out of the way to him. He left her so she could fulfill her destiny. And then, even though he already knows that the curse is broken and she's done what she's supposed to do, he's frickin' engaged?! How long has he been engaged? Was he already engaged before the postcard? Because if so, they seem to be taking their time with the actually getting married part.
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I like the idea that Tamara could be princess tiger lily rather than Tinkerbell
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But if she already knew him from Neverland, it doesn't seem like he would need to be secretive about where he was going.

Also, side note, maybe they're just together because of their mutual hatred for Rick Grimes. (Cause they were both on the Walking Dead and Rick shot him and kicked her out of his prison)
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Ooh, I forgot about Tiger Lilly...

Though I'm still going with the theory that Tamara == "Her" (from the texts)
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I think you're right, kanniball. She must have found something suspicious in her time with Neal. Greg might be a private investigator?

Or (huge stretch, I concede) since the Disney days at least, everyone has called Tinkerbell by the first syllable of her name, "Tink". That's clearly too obvious for it to ever be a reveal. "Bell" would be as well. But the middle syllable of her name sounds an awful lot like "Her".

And I might be a little late to this speculation party, but with the Gregor Mendel association, don't you think he'll be the one to discover how the bean plant takes people to other realms? I know the original Mendel used pea plants, but that's a small stretch for this crew by comparison.
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Maybe he could create beans that take you to specific destinations! Or even get the magical trees to grow in Storybrooke...

I'd love to see Science get back a little credibility after the Frankenstein/Rumplestiltskin debacle.
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Yes!
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LOL about showing Johanna fall alot
nice one Lily
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1. It is too early to venture this thought process too quickly, I am guessing it is bad ultimately and as they say in any number of other shows, once you kill one person, it gets easier.

2. My first thought was also Lost Boy (and it would be funny and kind of seem to fit with the series, well, order of things...the first portals, I think, opened to Wonderland where Jefferson and Cora went, then the next opened to Neverland, and then they opened to this world (I am guessing they might have taken a journey to Oz between then too). It might make sense, so obviously this is wrong, that he might have been Peter Pan when he initially got there and I think Peter decided to grow up didn't he?

3. I have no idea, I wonder if we think about her as Katherine 2.0 (who we don't initially like then grow to actually really like) or if she actually is just a regular old person. Do you think we are ever going to get Neal's flashback as to how he dealt with the idea that Emma was from his world too and of all the people to run into...and still because I doubt August was terribly forthcoming, does he know who she actually is? I mean, he likely only knows the fairy tale of her parents because it seems when he left, Snow and David weren't even born yet. Heck, I am having doubts that Cora was born yet.

4. With FTL, I figured that the initially scene actually took place the day or two before Snow's birthday (which actually made me well up) because they were setting up and Snow was trying on the dress and Eva died the next day, on Snow's birthday. The actually party was cancelled. I can imagine they figured this was the last time they could use this actress for any scenes before Regina married her father since she was clearly about 14 here and closer to like 11 when the horse thing happened and you figure that is at least a year after Eva died.

With real life, I have no idea. I am not even sure if time really past from last episode and we were just rewinding Snow and David's storyline (they were in the kitchen kind of breakfast like when they had the silly grandfather discussion). We technically have no idea where in Maine Storybrooke actually is, so the Jolly Roger might have done it, if say Regina, Cora and Hook finished with their library stuff like before ten in the morning?
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It looks like Elizabeth McGovern and Mrs Patmore are guesting in this episode! hahahah
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I notice the tthe shoes too. LOL
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Also, am I missing something here? Why, or how, did Snow + Charming think that they 'won' just because they were holding the dagger... in front of 2 evil witches that can just force-choke the heroes like Darth-Vader-with-breasts or turn them into gerbils.

Was the dagger supposed to protect them or something? Because unless it did they should have known that Cora and Regina won at that moment.
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1. Would killing Cora in essence be good or is all killing bad? --> Well, it would be deeply satisfying....though I LOVE Cora as a villain, so I am torn. :-/

2. Neal: How well does he know Peter Pan? --> Either he IS Peter Pan or he is a Lost Boy....so, very well either way.

3. Neal: How did he snag that hot girlfriend? --> Probably gave her a really cool key chain one time.

4. Can anyone explain the timeline of the FTL flashback/Storybrook threads to me? --> Nope. Explanation requires logic, which has no place here.
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re: #3 HAHAHAHA!!!!!! Good one! :)
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Plot twist, perhaps Tamara is "Her"
Perhaps the accident victim is texting Tamara, and Tamara is playing Bae. Maybe she learned about his whole magic thing and sent the accident victim to Storybrooke. And she's using Bae to achieve some sort of plan: get magic, get eternal youth, write the news story of the century, etc.

Or, perhaps she's just Tinkerbelle :-)
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You have Rumpel's gift of foresight, my friend. :)
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Thanks! Just figured, with the show far into the season... that a "mystery woman" would have to be introduced sooner or later. Preferably sooner so we could see the results of her machinations.

Introducing some relatively normal person that's so close to the magical world via Bae... just made sense. Else they would have to introduce ANOTHER woman, or make it someone we already know. And the latter doesn't make sense curse-wise unless Granny or someone got access to Craig's List.
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Ooooh I like this idea! It would give the audience the satisfaction of seeing Neal hurt the way he hurt Emma, and it would free him up to woo her again. You can tell she's still in love with him.
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Geez , i like OUAT but this episode sucks very much! bad acting everywhere! and hell this baby snow is so overreacting and annoying !
The problem here is that all the "good" characters are really stupid in a mad way , i would be in Regina's team in anytime without thinking and the scene when Cora make that old lady fly out of the window , geez , it was funny!
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Well, if you want to go pure selfish and join Cora's and Regina's team... then chances are they'd just sacrifice you in some mission or whatever.

Though, Season 1 Regina with the whole love-slave curse on the Hunter... I could think of worse ways to be cursed :-)
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i would like to get off a window for Regina's sake <3!!!
At least she is not dumb as Snow!
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the show is getting worse every episode :(
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Anywho, this was an interesting ep. I was expecting more from this episode. I was hoping Cora would die this episode. Oh well, maybe next episode. I just find it irritating that Cora is so morally bankrupt. You'd think she'd want her daughter's happiness before she wanted her own power, but not really. Then again I suppose that's what makes her a big bad. Now to answer Lily's review questions.

1. Would killing Cora in essence be good or is all killing bad? Feel free to quote philosophers.

Hmn...... well, if Snow had just had some balls and killed Regina from the start at that execution then they wouldn't be having all these problems. I personally think Snow has WAY too much moral compass. Regina did grievous wrongs and committed evils on so many levels, and the people deserved justice. But they never got justice because their Queen just let Regina go. Cora, on the same level, has done even worse things. Killing her, would be in essence for the greater good. So you'd think that it wouldn't be such amoral dilemma to kill the old witch. LOL!

2. Neal: How well does he know Peter Pan?

Probably very well. I'm assuming that Bae ended up in neverland before he ended up in the real world. He even said it himself that he'd be a couple thousand years old if he'd come to the real world straight away. LOL!

3. Neal: How did he snag that hot girlfriend?

Well he managed to snag a job that allows him to wear a business suit in the first ep of this season, so it stands to reason this new girlfriend has NO idea that he was a career criminal who got his baby mama sent to jail for a crime he committed. LOL!

4. Can anyone explain the timeline of the FTL flashback/Storybrook threads to me?

If I could explain how these flashbacks work I'd be rich. LOL! But I do think they just changed Snow's birthday party to a funeral. Poor Snow. No wonder she doesn't like her birthday.
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ummm.... Here's a question... Johana said that she got the crown from Gold's shop. But Snow, Charming and the blue fairy couldn't enter because he protected his shop... so how and when did she get in there?!?

Also, anyone else thinks that Neal's girlfriend (being so rich as it implies) is the "her" the guy in the hospital keeps calling to?
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He just puts the protection spell on when he's not there.
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That was my first thought, which made me think that perhaps Johana was a plant of Cora's.

But, then I immediately assumed what once-junkie said. Mr Gold sells those things, so Johana probably bought it prior to him leaving and putting on the Magical-ADT-system on his shop.
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Seriously??

Well, you know, Mr. Gold usually is SELLING things in his shop! Snow and company couldn't enter, because Gold had left town and therefore, the shop is CLOSED at present. And yes, he obviously has procted the shop with a magic spell before he left town. So not even Mother Superior could help to enter.

But Snows tiara was meant as a BIRTHDAY PRESENT from Johanna. So my guess is - OMFG - she bought it SOMETIME between the day when Emma broke the Curse and the day before Gold closed his shop and went to NY. And then Johanna kept the tiara and waited for Snows birthday to come, before she sent it to her...would make some sense, right?!
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If I had magical items in my shop, and knew Cora was in town, I'd booby-trap the place! Cora does not eed to get her greedy little paws on any more magical items. And her teacher in the Dark magics would have a better idea than most of what she'd do if she had them!

I think if Joanna thought the tiara was pretty enough to try it on as a servant, she'd have liked it as an average citizen. And as far as we know, the tiara doesn't have any magical powers. It might have just arrived. Maybe Rumplestiltskin acquired it in a trade somewhere along the line- he's probably the world's biggest packrat!

So it might have been bought either pre- Curse-breaking, just because she could buy it, or after, when Joanna remembered whose it was.
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Hmmm, apart from seeming a little rude, I don't think I've ever seen Gold sell anything out of his shop (with the exception of the fake memory windmill that was in David and Kathryn's yard, and even with that I can't recall if David bought it or just saw it and remembered). The pawn shop is a front for keeping all the tidbits from FTL he can use to make spells or blackmail people. He knew one day the curse would be broken, and he stockpiled everything he would need to remain all powerful when that happened. Yes, Johanna may have bought it for Snow, but Gold would have had to know what it was, who it was for, and what it meant to her. Maybe he has a soft spot for The Charmings after all?
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Why couldn't Johanna have bought it for herself long before the curse ended? Our first introduction to her is seeing her trying that tiara on and admiring it. She may have bought it long ago for herself, and once the curse was broken and Snow's birthday roled around, she dusts it off and returns it to the rightful owner.
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Before the curse ended, she wouldn't have remembered trying it on or admiring it. She bought it from Gold. She gave it to Snow. He didn't need it for any future nefarious plots. That's good enough for me. I just thought once-junkie had a little bite to their comment that seemed misplaced considering how little we know about the pawn shop's BBB rating. :)
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I thought we've seen him sell (or at least bargain) for something other than the memory-windmill and the Gepeto-clock.

It's possible that he's willing to accept things in trade, particularly if he doesn't "foresee" the items being useful for him in the future. To Johana probably had to trade for it instead of cold hard cash.

Plus, considering he spent 29-30 years pretending to be regular-clueless Mr Gold he would HAVE to sell something from his shop. Otherwise Regina might have wondered what was going on. Though that wouldn't explain Johana buying it "now"-ish
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OuAt, it would seem strange to perhaps "Regina" If someone wanted to buy something and he kept telling everyone "no." Then Regina might find out and wonder what's going on. Obviously he brought them here for his own ends... but Regina might wonder why a supposedly greedy+rich guy with no FTL memories never ever sells things from his store when asked.

So, he'd have to sell something... sometimes.

They might not realize that time is kind of frozen, but they have to know that something happened yesterday and what-not (and just not realize that they haven't aged since the Challenger explosion).

Then again, the whole time-frozen thing doesn't really make sense no matter how you look at it. Do kids age? Or are they stuck taking 1st grade forever and ever? Is Henry doing the same homework every single week until the end of the school year? etc.
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I guess I'm still confused about how the curse worked. If nobody had memories of time moving (except Regina), why would it seem strange for him to not sell anything? Or if time didn't move until Emma arrived... except for Henry? or something?... then he still wouldn't have sold anything during that time/nontime. In any case, commerce does not seem to be his goal. He brought all those things here for power, and he only parts with them if it furthers his plans somehow.
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o_O? You mad, bro?
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Agreed, baby Snow is awesome.
I'm desperate to love Regina but she keeps pushing me away, oh my queen.
Arghh, Hook has started to annoy the heck out of me, and that is saying a lot from a guy who I find extremely hot wearing guyliner, so Horokits need to do some writing to his character asap, the guy has been chasing Rumple for 2 dimensions, over 28 years and has attempted murder twice!! ffs, get it over already.. move on hot pirate, how about we start focusing on making him less lame and more "saviour" worthy so it doesn't look like anything rushed when Emma and him hook up.. yes, pun definetely intended.
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1. I am inclined to think that killing anyone is bad although it can be tolerated in case of legitimate self defense. I really hate to see how it has become normal for “heroes” to kill off guards, militias or any kind of soldiers. As long as they are considered as puppets to a mastermind we are told to regard them as being disposable. Furthermore, I think that killing Cora is not a punishment severe enough to make up for the evil she caused.
2. I don’t think Neal is Peter Pan himself but I ready to believe he was part of the lost boys which makes me wonder why he left Neverland. When you’re an orphan and you get to be part of a group of young people who spend their time having fun why should you leave?
3. I’ve seen in the news that the girl playing Tamara will be a recurrent character in the show. I’m quite interested to learn her back-story. Maybe she has a role to play in the big scheme. I guess we all know that Emma and Neal will end up together in the end, since Neal is not that HOT he should avoid being killed off!
4. Timelines are so overrated, just give it up! I think that the Good Queen (I absolutely loved Rena Sofer as Snow’s mom) died the next day after she fell. Snow’s birthday turned out to be a funeral. Regarding the story in the real world everything happened in one day. You have to assume that Hook escaped quite early in the morning and made it to NYC by lunch time. We also have to assume that since neither he nor his ship have been cursed they don’t obey to the same rule regarding magic… it’s a stretch!
Something did bother me throughout this episode and it wasn’t little snow poor acting skills. It seems that Ginifer Goodwyn shaved her eyebrows and put tons of make-uk to paint them. I find it very disturbing and so not pretty.
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First of all, they have really chosen a good character to play the Queen, she was beautifull and really queen like...I agree that baby snow was really intense and scary sometimes...

Loved when Rumple got pissed at Henry...that boy is so annoying...!!

You know what i don't understand? Why did Charming and Snow go the the clockhouse and get the dagger....it was perfectly save there and Rumple is already on his way home...so stupid...!!!
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The episode was on of the better episodes of a disappointing season. The flashback was as good as it gets compared to season one with amazing backstory on how the queen died, Cora's manipulation to ascend to power. The time line is weird and needs to be clearly explained.I don't think Snow will have a chance to stop Cora considering she got the dagger and Regina by her side.
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The backstory was kind of useless. We had Cora and her revenge on Snow's mother, but the whole bad Snow thing was silly. Snow was like 12 in there and for all these years her mom didn't teach her that she is not better than anyone else just because she is a royal? Silly.
This is huge mystery how Hook managed to find them so fast, but this guy is not a really big thinker so even if he succeed like for a minute someone had to knock him down. Good job!
But in general this episode was weak. Was much worse than the previous one. It was stupid to create character just to kill her off in few minutes. But well... The logic sometimes is really weir. And I'd like to have some time line. Because we really don't know when something is happening.
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Yeah not a lot of new information here, but I'm hoping this is a building episode for next weeks and Cora's backstory. We found out Cora had some problem with Queen Eva, that magic candle may come back again, and Snow's being born during a harsh winter, if felt that was all foundation work for something more. Maybe the Miller's daughter didn't fare too well in that harsh winter when the royals did. Maybe Cora had such a candle because she'd used it herself?
Then again, maybe I'm reaching and giving the writer's too much credit.
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Well I know we needed this episode to have new problems to solve.
I thought that maybe Cora and Eva were in love with the king and he chose Eva. I can't wait to find out why Cora hates Eva so much.
But i think they could have like more interesting story. And besides why create new character if Snow has a lot of other loved ones? Just threat to Charming or Emma and Snow could be scared. This is a little bit to weird. She didn't even look for Johanna and now she wants to kill.
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Did anyone notice how Snow told the Blue Fairy that she kept her secret all those years, but in reality, baby Snow immediately told her mother (and basically everyone else in the room) that the Blue Fairy gave her dark magic? Snow's so bad at keeping secrets...
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Ha! You are so right I didn't even pick up on that! I kept your secret except I told my mother and an entire room of royal health attendants.
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Not as great as the last few episodes which is disappointing since this season had been building up so well. Still this one had a great flashback story which filled in a bunch of gaps and mysteries.
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Hahaha that part about little Snow xD That kid is just too annoying to me..
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Are Snow (Ginnifer Goodwin) and Alex from Nikita (Lyndsy Fonseca) having an eyebrow contest?
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It was nice to see Rena Sofer not play a total bitch for once. Seems like every time I see her, she's either playing a lawyer, someone's ex-wife, or someone's ex-wife who also happens to be a lawyer.
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She was in the American version of Coupling. I don't think her character was any of those, but the show was awful and I am still trying to delete it from my memory. :)
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Baby Snow is scary, but I'm willing to let it slide since she paid her dues the hard way...by starring in Parental Guidance.
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I think that Henry should take a moment to actually think about what his step mom has done before comparing her to Emma. Sure, Emma lied...once. And while it was a big lie, Regina has waged war against thousands and ripped out hundreds of people's hearts with her bare hands. She's also kept everyone he knows in a state of mental slavery for something like thirty years. And while she did lie to him about his dad, this was the same dad who ratted her out and left her to serve time and give birth in jail. While it's true that Neil arguably had a good reason for this, and didn't want any of that to happen to Emma, she didn't know that at the time she lied to Henry.

And while I think that she should have told him the true from the beginning, since all lies are uncovered on this show in often ugly ways, I can see how it would be hard to say your young child (who you've only known for a short time): "Hey kid, about your dad...yeah...he's a small time crook I met when we both tried to steal the same car, and while we had fun for a while during a pleasant spree of petty crime, he set me up to take the fall for the theft of some watches which landed me in jail long enough to give birth to you, which pretty much made me feel like the worst mother ever, and ultimately led to me not knowing you at all for the vast majority of your childhood...yeah." So even though Henry is understandably unhappy that Emma kept it secret that his dad is alive, he should keep in mind that his step mom is infinitely worse, and his dad has many faults of his own. Besides, Emma is the one who brought him back to life with the kiss of true love.
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Lily, you are absolute right that OUAT has never been better! And with young Snow, I still cannot get over just how much she looks like a true, young Ginnifer Goodwin. Such great casting. As for Regina and Cora, yes to all of that. This show never shines as well as when it's got a good villain. It's a Disney tale, you need a good villain, all the best Disney movies have them. Apart from that one flicker of uncertainty while Cora was giving her speech about how awesome she prepared things for her daughter, Regina was straight up Evil this episode, and Evil Regina is the way to go people!
-I am generally a fan of not killing people if at all possible. I'd quote the philosophers, but I just got home from the gym and am frankly too tired to bother to do so. As for in FTL, who the heck knows what's right and wrong there, after all, they have dragons (that seems relevant to me right now for some reason, I don't know why). But don't kill Cora pointlessly. Use her death to do something. I'm a big fan of killing her in the season finale releasing a fully committed EVIL Regina onto the town.
-I would LOVE for him to be a lost boy. He could have a lot of fun adventures and stuff, and that would actually explain some of his backstory. He could be Rufio (from "Hook"). Actually, that just popped into my head as I was typing the sentence, but now that I see it, I want THIS to happen!! That would be excellent, and perfect for Michael Raymond-James. Plus, I would love to see more of him. So far, this show has used him rather sparingly, and he is worth much more. Also, I'm firmly behind Zac Efron as Peter Pan.
-Maybe she hooked up with him for his story-telling abilities, seeing as how he lived through so much stuff. Or maybe he just accidentally stole her while he was boosting some other dude's car. Who knows?
-Whiskey. There, done.
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The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... or the one.
Dunno if Neil is Peter Pan, just please let him not be played by Cathy Rigby.
Maybe she's Tinker Bell? But actually it'd be nice to have a character on this show that doesn't have a parallel world alter ego. Fairies, daggers, hamburgers?! Y'all crazy.
Ain't nobody got time for that! I did seriously wonder how Hook got to NY so fast, maybe we'll see some of that Kraken wormhole action Hook did before, and bringing third wheel fiance along I think.

Personally, I'd like to see Snow be more badass. Older Snow- young Snow does give me the creeps.

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1. I think the way that the show presents this question is very strange and confusing. Snow, Charming, and the "good guys" seem to make a big deal about whether or not killing people is a bad thing, only when they're talking about a major enemy of some sort. They've talked about whether or not they should kill Regina, and now Cora, and about whether or not they can change or deserve to live regardless of what they've done. But we've seen both Snow and Charming kill people on this show, most of these people being soldiers that haven't done nearly as many bad things as Cora or Regina. Sure, these deaths happened during times of war, but if that makes everything okay then surely the same logic should be applied to this situation as well. Cora and Regina are currently planning to control Rumple so that they can force him to kill all the "good" people in Storybrooke. So how are they not at war? If killing Cora is the only way to stop her from killing more people, then killing her won't turn Snow any more evil than killing those countless soldiers did (or those misguided werewolves for that matter).

But even with this in mind, the way that this show treats crime and punishment is very bizarre. Normally when answering a question like this I would say that no one really deserves to die, as I happen to be anti-death penalty. What Snow, Charming, Emma, etc. should do on this show is actually use the jail at the Sheriff's station, or construct some magical holding cell like the one they used on Rumple way back when. But other than the one time Rumple spent that long stretch in jail, or that very brief time that Regina was in jail, none of the bad guys on this show go to prison. King George for instance, who straight up murdered two people in Storybrooke, was only presumably banished from living in the town, and didn't have a trail or serve any jail time. Even in FTL, when Regina was in jail, the question was whether to kill her or let her go, but no one ever suggested that they just imprison her for a very long time, see if she changed at all, and if not keep her there until she died. Using magic to make sure she couldn't hurt two people, but could kill literally anyone else she wished, is not in any way a good, just, or plain old smart decision.

And yet, this is how the people on this show operate. These are the same people who welcomed a giant into their community after he attempted to KILL ALL OF THEM AND DESTORY THEIR ENTIRE TOWN. And while that guy happens to be lovable and all that, he still should have at least paid a fine. Anyway, keeping all this in mind, I guess I have to say that killing Cora is a "good" thing, since the alternate is letting her kill countless other people. And Snow may as well be the one to kill Cora, because Cora did kill her mother and Snow happens to be a Queen and therefore possesses the right to execute, or pardon, anyone in her realm (if that episode where she spared Regina's life is any indication). And since these people never lock anyone up, and the only way to stop evil mass murders with no remorse is to kill them, Snow has both a legal and moral right to kill Cora.

2. I'm guessing pretty darn well. I doubt he's Peter Pan himself, since then that would mean he has another name on top of his other two. and "Peter Pan" doesn't seem that much like a nickname or name he would somehow have to use instead of Bae.

3. Knowing his past he probably tried to steal her car and she thought that was just too cute.

4. I think at this point the only people who can actually do that are the writers. Sure, we've seen a lot of what's happened in the past, and there's a good amount we can imply happened. But still, there are huge swaths of events missing from what we have, and there are numerous things that people have said that suggest complex relationships and backstories we don't know about. As you said way back in one of your earliest reviews of this show, the writers probably have a crazy intricate timeline on their wall, probably with different colored pieces of string, drawings, descriptions, and references to what events will be revealed in which episodes. But we probably won't have seen enough of what they've already come up with, ,or at least enough figure out how they got from the F we're at in FTL to the T we've come to in Storybrooke, for at least another season or two.
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LOL! 'He should at least pay a fine'
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Not Mrs. Patmore! Okay, actually, yes, kill her off because I enjoy her on Downton Abbey, and they've killed enough people off lately.
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I recently said that Carl from the Walking was the best child actor on TV. I think Baby Snow takes the cake. She's awesome.
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Well it's definitely not Henry.
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Henry ranks somewhere between Jake Lloyd in Phantom Menace and my first grade performance as broccoli in "the five food groups"
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Mannequin Skywalker
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hang on. hasn't snow white already killed heaps of people while being a warrior princess with her bow and arrow or does she only beat people to near death? either way killing Cora wouldn't be seen as evil especially in any of Disney's films. or is the difference here that a Disney princess would do the killing and not a prince which is totally ok?
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It's likely that Snow killed soldiers and ogres while being a warrior in, but they don't count on OUat. Just like the faceless peasants/villagers who had their homes burned by Prince Phillip when he was Yaoguai. The survivors were probably homeless & hungry, but I don't think Phil had one moment of remorse. Yikes.
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