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Planet Green (ended 2008)

Atheist/Christian episode

  • Avatar of PIMagic37

    PIMagic37

    [21]Aug 11, 2006
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    Perhaps you don't believe our rights come from the Creator, but the Founding Fathers certainly believed it. It was all through their writings.

    Adolf Hitler was not a Christian. See here: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

    It's amazing that Christianity always gets slapped with misdeeds that took place hundreds of years ago, but atheism doesn't get slapped for much worse things that took place much sooner than that. Some people do kill others because they don't believe in God. Many more have been killed in the name of atheism than Christianity is responsible for.

    Oh, and the Crusades? Those were to keep Islam from taking over the Holy Land and Europe. The threat was similar then to what it is today, except the enemy wasn't trying to get nuclear weapons.

    But back to the subject of rights and where they come from:

    You see, if the state gives our rights, it can take them away. If the state gives the rights, it can change them and manipulate them. They're not inalienable. For instance, right now we have tiny people being denied their inalienable right to life just because they are small, defenseless and they reside in the womb of another. They are murdered for the sake of convenience, 98% of them.

    The First Amendment only had two purposes: 1) that there would be no Church of the United States, and 2) that the government would not interfere with the free exercise of religious faith. And that's it! Almost everything in the so-called separation of church and state doctrine is pretzel logic against the First Amendment. Congress opens with prayer. It always has, since before there was a United States. What's oppressive about that? Nothing!

    Ninety-five percent of people believe in a Supreme Being of some kind. And there's a good reason for it, too. This world is too complex to be the accident that atheists claim it is. Life is too much a miracle to be the result of natural forces -- all of which we see constantly working to destroy rather than create. But people who desire to live without God will find reasons to reject Him, even if that means clutching onto a myth of evolutionary naturalism. I prefer to have a more open mind and a wider view of the possibilities of reality.

    I cannot prove beyond all doubt that God exists, but I believe that the evidence for God is reasonable and logical, and the evidence that the Bible came from God is similarly reasonable and logical. Better than the alternative, at any rate. I'm willing to entertain any specific questions that any of you have in that regard.
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    flowerdew

    [22]Aug 12, 2006
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    PIMagic37 wrote:
    Without God, we are slaves to our natural instincts for power and control. If Brenda would ever realize this, she would be scared to death of her side gaining an increased power and control over our society. Mao, Hitler, Robespierre, Mussolini, Pol Pot, and many others throughout world history are examples of what happens when people try to live without God.


    Okay...now you're comparing Brenda to the worst dictators and mass murderers of history?
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    flowerdew

    [23]Aug 12, 2006
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    PIMagic37 wrote:
    Perhaps you don't believe our rights come from the Creator, but the Founding Fathers certainly believed it. It was all through their writings.


    You mean like Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, James Madison, Thomas Paine? Because they were NOT Christian. They were deists. They believed a creative force (god) created the universe and then left man to his own devices. They were children of the Enlightenment, they believed in reason and the free will of man. They did not believe in the God of the Bible, nor did they believe that an organized religion was necessary for mankind to live noble lives.

    James Madison:
    "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774

    "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."- "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785

    "The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries."
    -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches

    John Adams:
    "As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?" -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816

    "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -letter to Thomas Jefferson

    "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

    "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

    Thomas Jefferson:
    "Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth."
    - "Notes on Virginia"

    "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. - letter to Peter Carr, Aug. 10, 1787

    "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology."

    "The truth is, that the greatest enemies of the doctrine of Jesus are those, calling themselves the expositors of them, who have perverted them to the structure of a system of fancy absolutely incomprehensible, and without any foundation in his genuine words. And the day will come, when the mystical generation [birth] of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation [birth] of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."- to John Adams, Apr. 11, 1823

    On George Washington:
    Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]

    Paul F. Boller states in is anthology on Washington: "There is no mention of Jesus Christ anywhere in his extensive correspondence." [Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15]

    Benjamin Franklin:
    ". . . Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist."

    "I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
    - "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", 1728

    "I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy-day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity."- Works, Vol. VII, p. 75

    Thomas Paine:
    Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

    "Take away from Genesis the belief that Moses was the author, on which only the strange belief that it is the word of God has stood, and there remains nothing of Genesis but an anonymous book of stories, fables, and traditionary or invented absurdities, or of downright lies."

    "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."

    And since you mentioned Abraham Lincoln earlier as an example of a "good" leader (as opposed to Stalin and Pol Pot), though he is not a Founding Father, I'll still include it here:
    .
    "The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."
    -Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis

    His former law partner, William Herndon, said of him after his assassination: "[Mr. Lincoln] never mentioned the name of Jesus, except to scorn and detest the idea of a miraculous conception. He did write a little work on infidelity in 1835-6, and never recanted. He was an out-and-out infidel, and about that there is no mistake." He also said that Lincoln "assimilated into his own being" the heretical book Age of Reason by Thomas Paine.

    Lincoln's first law partner, John T. Stuart, said of him: "He was an avowed and open infidel, and sometimes bordered on atheism. He went further against Christian beliefs and doctrines and principles than any man I have ever heard."

    Supreme Court Justice David Davis: "He [Lincoln] had no faith, in the Christian sense of the term-- he had faith in laws, principles, causes and effects."

    .
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  • Avatar of PIMagic37

    PIMagic37

    [24]Aug 12, 2006
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    Well, you're certainly one with the quotes aren't you? Assuming all of them are accurate, it would probably be best to look at them in context rather than in this isolated form. Isn't it possible that John Adams was railing against Roman Catholicism, a political version of which was responsible for the Crusades? That may have been the "bloody religion" he was referring to.

    Of the 55 men who formed the Constitution, 52 were active members of their churches. So much for this myth that they didn't believe in "organized religion."

    Although all the Founders were not individually, personally Christians, nevertheless they founded this country on the base that there was a Creator who gave the inalienable rights.

    Boller is simply wrong concerning George Washington. Just read his famous prayer at Valley Forge if you want to know where his faith was built.

    And whatever strange faith Abraham Lincoln had, he was far from being an atheist, and that was the main point. Read more here for information on Lincoln's views: http://www.christianitytoday.com/holidays/memorial/features/33h010.html.

    Hope there's more to come.
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    mrfixitright

    [25]Aug 12, 2006
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    [QUOTE="PIMagic37"]Perhaps you don't believe our rights come from the Creator, but the Founding Fathers certainly believed it. It was all through their writings.

    Adolf Hitler was not a Christian. See here: http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html



      Uhh, Did you even read any of this site you used to show how Hitler wasn't a Christian? Cause, ya' probably shouldn't have used this page as it doesn't help your claim that Hitler was an Atheist. You might want to read it over.


    It's amazing that Christianity always gets slapped with misdeeds that took place hundreds of years ago, but atheism doesn't get slapped for much worse things that took place much sooner than that.
    Some people do kill others because they don't believe in God. Many more have been killed in the name of atheism than Christianity is responsible for.

     
    Wild unfounded assurtions does not help your case either

     Oh, and the Crusades? Those were to keep Islam from taking over the Holy Land and Europe. The threat was similar then to what it is today, except the enemy wasn't trying to get nuclear weapons.



     The Muslems were already in the "holy land" European Christians invaded. Strike three!

    But back to the subject of rights and where they come from:

    You see, if the state gives our rights, it can take them away. If the state gives the rights, it can change them and manipulate them. They're not inalienable.


      Wait a minute. Isn't that Christian president, oh what's his name, sounds like "W", doing just that right now?

    (anti-abortion propaganda and sermon deleted for space)

    -Vic.
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  • Avatar of ponz

    ponz

    [26]Aug 12, 2006
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    You are doing something which atheists and agnostics dislike.  Either believe in my religion or you will burn in hell forever.

    Please realize that Muslims believe Christians will burn in hell forever in the worse kind of torment.

    It is very suspicious that a religion has to be "sold" on the basis of  threats.  It does not stand to reason that a

    God of  Love would assign anyone to hell for eternity. 

    David C Taylor


     

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    ponz

    [27]Aug 12, 2006
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    Thank you for admitting the Founding Fathers were not Christian. It does not really matter if these "Rights" were "from" a

    Creator God or from the mind of humans.  It is just common sense to have these rights.  The basic Golden Rules has been

    here before any religion--it is just common sense.  It does not take a Christian or a Deist to think of these things.

    Even the Founding Fathers had their faults.  Remember some of them owned slaves and these "Rights" did not extend

    to slaves.  Regarding Christianity:  In the bible--slavery is condoned. That is probably why it took Christians more

    than 1800 years to come to the conclusion that slavery is wrong.

    David C Taylor

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  • Avatar of ponz

    ponz

    [28]Aug 12, 2006
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    Where do you think the problems of the world come from at this time?  It is mainly religions fighting each other.

    As in the War on Terror. 

    Look at the history of Christianity--full of hate and violence.  Currently Christianity has evolved to a more humane

    state.  Islam is 550 years younger than Christianity.  Thus Islam is where Christianity was 550 years ago. Unfortunately

    it may take Islam 550 years to evolve into something like Christianity today [no more inqusitions, torture [except per

    our current president] religious wars, burning at stake etc.

    David C Taylor

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    PIMagic37

    [29]Aug 12, 2006
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    ponz wrote:

    It does not stand to reason that a

    God of  Love would assign anyone to hell for eternity. 

    David C Taylor


     



    If you think I like saying it, I don't really. It just happens to be the truth that God won't take anyone to heaven who doesn't want to go, anyone who rejects His revealed Way to get there.

    The way to heaven is not be leading a "good life," because none of us can be as good as God. It's not by blowing yourself up and taking Jews or "infidels" with you. It's only by trusting in what Jesus Christ said and what He did to save us from sins.

    There's only two religions in the world. Either God is God or man is god. It all boils down to one of those two scenarios, doesn't it? If a lady like Brenda wants to say there is no God, and that she basically controls her own destiny, then she is certainly free to do that. But this sidesteps the issue of whether or not she is right in her beliefs. Is there a God or not, and how would you know?

    Those who say there is no God have a lot of explaining to do, first of all about how we got here. Is biogenesis not a scientific law? Has anyone ever made life from nonliving material in a lab? No, they have not. Is the Bible not the most stunningly preserved piece of ancient literature ever? Is not the resurrection of Jesus Christ the most fantastic fact of history? The answers to these things will influence many of our behaviors when it comes to moral life.

    Why do we whine so much about our rights if it is not a fact that all of us were created ...

    ... equal.
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  • Avatar of ponz

    ponz

    [30]Aug 13, 2006
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    The point of the show is NOT for one side or another to change their views. The point is that all can get a better understanding.

    In this case the views of an atheist were mostly not understood by the general public as the general public is very mostly

    not atheist.  This is a great show!

    David C Taylor

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    ponz

    [31]Aug 13, 2006
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    It is not that they did not believe in any religion---it is just that they did not believe in Christianity.  This nation was

    not founded on Christianity. Not one place in the Constitution can you find the words "Jesus" "God" "Christianity" etc.

    The Founding Fathers knew of the harm Christianity had done in Europe and thus most were deists. 

    Current USA law is not based on the Bible. For example the Bible condones slavery but our law says slavery is

    wrong and criminal.   David C Taylor

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    ponz

    [32]Aug 13, 2006
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    Athiests are discriminated against in USA Christian culture. For example the older George Bush stated that atheists are

    not patriots and this is a country "under God"  Some athiests have given their lifes for their country.

    Regarding more secular societies.  What do 39 out of 40 of the most poverty stricken countries have in common? Answer

    is their population is highly religious with almost no atheists or agnostics.  Coutnries which are more secular have far

    less proverty.   David C Taylor

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    ponz

    [33]Aug 13, 2006
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    If everything is "created"--who/what created God? 

    Our universe is so vast that we do not begin to understand it. What was there before the big bang?  Are there trillions

    of other universes?  If we are to believe a holy book--which one?  Should we believe a holy book [Bible] which condones

    slavery and condones selling your daughters into slavery.  Lot gave his daughters for rape--is this the mark of a "moral"

    holy book?  Is genocide a mark of a true holy book?  Atheists and agnostics wonder about such questions>

    David C Taylor

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    ponz

    [34]Aug 13, 2006
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    While you are assigning almost everybody to hell as they do not believe as you--Remember this--You believe Jesus tells

    the truth---according to Jesus--EVERYONE who has ever told a lie will burn in hell forever. This includes the atheist

    family and the Christian family and me and YOU.  This includes more than 99.99% of the population of people able

    to speak.  So, per your own beliefs--just about everybody is doomed by your loving God.

    Atheists and agnostics do not really think this makes sense--but it is part of your Christianity.

    David C Taylor

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    PIMagic37

    [35]Aug 13, 2006
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    ponz wrote:

    It is not that they did not believe in any religion---it is just that they did not believe in Christianity.  This nation was

    not founded on Christianity. Not one place in the Constitution can you find the words "Jesus" "God" "Christianity" etc.

    The Founding Fathers knew of the harm Christianity had done in Europe and thus most were deists. 

    Current USA law is not based on the Bible. For example the Bible condones slavery but our law says slavery is

    wrong and criminal.   David C Taylor



    Sir, this idea cannot be sustained under scrutiny. Someone earlier quoted John Adams as saying this would be a better world without religion. The full quote is as follows:

    "Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion at all!!!' But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell."

    Now, John Adams was a Unitarian, who believed that all people would eventually be saved. This does not match what the Bible says.

    Both leftist history revisionists and the religious right have tried to make the Founding Fathers fit their ideology. It gives neither side of the debate any credibility when quotes are found to be ficticious or grossly out of context. I don't see how it can be denied that the Founding Fathers in general had a Judeo-Christian world view.

    The Bible condones slavery, but not racism, and so black slavery was always wrong regardless of what some people who called themselves Christians said about it. Thomas Jefferson tried to ban black slavery when he wrote the Declaration of Independence, but the South refused to go along with it, and thankfully the North decided creating a new nation in liberty was more important at that time than convictions about slavery. Later on, we were able to end it.
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    vokilj

    [36]Aug 13, 2006
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    PIMagic37 wrote:
    When asked where she thought she came from, Brenda simply said that she came from her parents. Big deal. This does nothing for explaining how life could have sprung from the rocks millions of years ago. She talked about natural law, but at least in the show she did not articulate where that law comes from. The Founding Fathers said that our rights were inalienable because they came from a Creator.

    Humans don't come from rocks, in a planet rich with elements necessary for life it is easy for the elements to begin creating polypeptide chains that then create larger protein chains that then create DNA molecules. Scientists have even created large polypeptide chains (one of the smallest units of life) in labs. So before you make delirious comments maybe you should read a book...you know, something that's non-fiction. The Founding fathers, such as Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, etc. were for the most part naturalists who believed that God did not control our lives. Unfortunately, they were born 100 years before Darwin and never knew about Evolution or Atheism so it would seem impossible that anyone of that time was anything but religious in one way or another.

    Edited on 08/13/2006 11:40am
    Edited 2 total times.
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    PIMagic37

    [37]Aug 13, 2006
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    ponz wrote:

    If everything is "created"--who/what created God? 

    Our universe is so vast that we do not begin to understand it. What was there before the big bang?  Are there trillions

    of other universes?  If we are to believe a holy book--which one?  Should we believe a holy book [Bible] which condones

    slavery and condones selling your daughters into slavery.  Lot gave his daughters for rape--is this the mark of a "moral"

    holy book?  Is genocide a mark of a true holy book?  Atheists and agnostics wonder about such questions>

    David C Taylor



    If there is a First Cause for all things, then you have arrived at the end of the question. The First Cause cannot have been caused, and God was not created; He has existed forever, and He wrote a book to tell us how He created everything.

    There are many stories of many people in the Bible, and it covers the good things they do as well as the bad. This sets the Bible above most holy books that whitewash the lives of their central characters. There is much to examine about the Bible, and I'm convinced that it holds up to reality where other holy books fail.
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    vokilj

    [38]Aug 13, 2006
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    PIMagic37 wrote:
    Many more have been killed in the name of atheism than Christianity is responsible for. I believe that the evidence for God is reasonable and logical.
    Where are you getting your facts from? Atheists are one of the lowest belifs in jail, death row, etc. Atheists don't need to kill anyone because we have never tried to take a large force of people and convert them. Almost every single war this world has seen has been over religion, take a look at the genocide in Bosnia in early 1990s, those were Christians cleansing all Muslim Bosnians and the list goes on forever. Whether Hilter was a Christian or not he was a man of god (no matter how evil that god may be), he was not a rational thinking man and an atheist. 75% of Americans are Christian, 75% of the Jail population is Christian. Atheists/Agnostics make up 10% of the population and .2% of the Jail popluation.

    A virgin birth, a women coming from a man's ribs, the entire world flooding, a man talking to a burning bush...are all logical and reasonable.

    Edited on 08/13/2006 11:56am
    Edited 3 total times.
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    PIMagic37

    [39]Aug 13, 2006
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    ponz wrote:

    While you are assigning almost everybody to hell as they do not believe as you--Remember this--You believe Jesus tells the truth---according to Jesus--EVERYONE who has ever told a lie will burn in hell forever. This includes the atheist family and the Christian family and me and YOU.  This includes more than 99.99% of the population of people able to speak.  So, per your own beliefs--just about everybody is doomed by your loving God.

    Atheists and agnostics do not really think this makes sense--but it is part of your Christianity.

    David C Taylor



    This simplistic reading of the Scripture is just plain false. What verse are you reading?
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    vokilj

    [40]Aug 13, 2006
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    PIMagic37 wrote:
    ponz wrote:

    While you are assigning almost everybody to hell as they do not believe as you--Remember this--You believe Jesus tells the truth---according to Jesus--EVERYONE who has ever told a lie will burn in hell forever. This includes the atheist family and the Christian family and me and YOU.  This includes more than 99.99% of the population of people able to speak.  So, per your own beliefs--just about everybody is doomed by your loving God.

    Atheists and agnostics do not really think this makes sense--but it is part of your Christianity.

    David C Taylor



    This simplistic reading of the Scripture is just plain false. What verse are you reading?


    PIMagic37, is correct. The scriptures can't just be read in their simplistic form, the Bible isn't black and white...wait sometimes it is, but sometime's it isn't.
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