30 Days Forums

Planet Green (ended 2008)

Immigration Episode Questions

  • Avatar of bbagnall

    bbagnall

    [1]May 2, 2007
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    While watching this episode it was interesting to see the contrast between the illegals digs in the USA versus their old digs in Mexico. But it raised many more questions like:
    - Why can't they do the same thing in Mexico? After all, the terrain is nearly identical to California.
    - One of the protesters had a sign saying "Who is going to build your fence?" Well, if they are such good builders and hard workers, why did the buildings look so poor in Mexico?
    - From my own experiences in Mexico I know there are good areas in Mexico. Why not legally flee to more prosperous parts of Mexico rather than illegally fleeing to the USA?
    - When the first Pilgrim settlers came to America there was *nothing* here except nature. They worked hard and built what you see today. Seeing as Mexico has almost nothing too, what is stopping them from building and improving their own country?
    - And the final question: If anyone who believes in hard work ends up fleeing Mexico, who will be left to improve Mexico?

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  • Avatar of lbcyber

    lbcyber

    [2]May 19, 2007
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    Using the pilgrims reference was probably an oversight. They could've remained in England to try to improve the country, fix the system, and put an end to poverty... But this is a bit easier said than done. The pilgrims themselves fled to the Americas, remember, to escape the rampant religious persecution, extreme class-stratification and iron-fisted rule imposed by the British Empire.

    (And as an added twist of irony, the task of the original Minutemen was to keep the natives (the ORIGINAL owners of the land) out of the American colonies)

    Again, easier said than done. I do agree that the best way to solve matters is to work them through rather than fleeing the country, but thing's aren't great in Mexico, and I don't think it's fair to put that sort of blame on the desperation of people searching for money to help their families. There's an enormous gap between rich and poor, and the middle class (if any) is hanging by a thread.

    bbagnall wrote:
    From my own experiences in Mexico I know there are good areas in Mexico. Why not legally flee to more prosperous parts of Mexico rather than illegally fleeing to the USA?

    This doesn't make much sense. If the country's poor, it's poor. Moving to a rich part of the country doesn't change the enormous stratification of the system, it just increases the amount of beggars. If there were enough jobs available in Mexico, ones that actually paid livable wages, there wouldn't be a problem. That's why mexicans are sneaking across the border in the first place: The U.S. have jobs available to them.

    bbagnall wrote:
    One of the protesters had a sign saying "Who is going to build your fence?" Well, if they are such good builders and hard workers, why did the buildings look so poor in Mexico?

    Um, yeah... No offense, but that's a pretty dumb argument. The poor areas of Mexico look poor because... they're poor! It isn't a matter of ability or craftsmanship, it's a matter of upkeep and of access to materials... which the poor don't have.

    Immigration is indeed a tricky issue in the United States, and illegal immigration is, yes, illegal. But when you get certain nuts who begin to claim that illegal immigrants are systematically destroying the nation, the issue mutates into what's essentially racism. Since 1990, the American unemployment rate has been fairly steady at 5%, which is pretty good proof on its own that the "crisis" is fairly overblown. I think the Minutemen do have good intentions, but that doesn't make them right. Building a wall is the most idiotic solution ever devised, one that doesn't work, and one that costs far much more money than the immigrants are assumed to be taking away from legal employees.  All in all, the Statue of Liberty has a very clear message on its front.

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  • Avatar of bbagnall

    bbagnall

    [3]Jun 5, 2007
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    They definitely have materials and resources in Mexico, they just aren't doing much with them. Wealth comes from the mind. A stick is a worthless stick until someone carves it into a sculpture, then it becomes wealth. Rocks are rocks until you mine the metal out and shape them into automobiles - that's wealth. Oil is a black gooey substance that people used to ignore until we invented lamps and cars. It all happens in the mind. They just have to get off their butts and start doing something.
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  • Avatar of lbcyber

    lbcyber

    [4]Jun 5, 2007
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    ... I don't know how to respond to that level of ignorance.  Are you employed at the World Bank or something?

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  • Avatar of lbcyber

    lbcyber

    [5]Jun 5, 2007
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    No wait, I do. It's hard for an upper or even middle-class person to understand poverty. With that said, however, I find it absolutely absurd for you to assume that poverty is all in the mind. You're actually implying that people starve to death by choice? By lack of perspective? By laziness? What is it?

    Poverty IS a lack of access to resources. That's essentially the definition of poverty. I furthermore think it's pretty arrogant to argue that they just need to work harder to find wealth. That kind of reasoning is so distant from reality it's almost comical. Again: Easier said than done. Try working at a soup kitchen. Check out your local temp job agency. Hell, look at New Orleans: I suppose those people lost their homes post-Katrina because they weren't trying hard enough?

    You're ignoring circumstance and assuming that these people somehow have the ability to overcome every problem they face. You can't get anymore jaded than that.

    It isn't my intention to insult, but I can't even begin to fathom how you can claim that poverty is psychological.

    Edited on 06/05/2007 11:59pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of chaosrainz

    chaosrainz

    [6]Sep 19, 2007
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    Actually, on one level I can explain this even though the original comment wasn't mine.
    The liberal mind think and culture there cause them to vote for socialist ideas and rely heavily on their government. Their government is letting them down.
    They obviously have natural resources that could be utilized like ours, they are hard workers and could do something with their country but there are so few opportunities because of the way the government does business there that it induces poverty on a large scale. But instead of seeing that and voting for change, they bring those ideals and problems with them when they flee here.
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  • Avatar of DrLar

    DrLar

    [7]Jun 3, 2008
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    Mexico was destroyed finantially by it's own government, starting with Santana that sold the land to the AMERICANS (which paid him from gold from the same lands they were buying).

    Then came the french and tried to settle their empire here, luckilly they were kicked out..

    Then came the dictatorship from Porfirio Diaz, giving all the land to the rich and the poor in the streets, revolution came and that changed.

    Then came the politics of the PRI party, robbing Mexico like crazy, oil, riches, taxes, everything went to their pockets.

    Not to mention drug cartels nowadays, they control the police, the streets, etc. guess who buys the drugs? the USA consumers of course.

    It seems there is no break for Mexico, now they are starting to fight the druglords but more come with better weapons and winning the battle..
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  • Avatar of marvelfan89

    marvelfan89

    [8]Jun 19, 2008
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    Yeah all very good points. My viewpoint is that it's all about exploitatin Mexican government exploits it's workers and so does the U.S. as long as a system of exploitation exists it will continue. The Maquiladoras http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladoras system is living proof of a situation where both the US and corporations in Mexico profit of the sweat of others.
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  • Avatar of TheRoutine

    TheRoutine

    [9]Jun 26, 2008
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    If we open the flood gates and just allow everyone in the world to move here then eventually the demand will far exceed the supply. I honestly do feel for the immigrants. I have family in Mexico. My grandmother has lived here legally for over 60 years, but we have to face the facts that if everyone does move here and keep making bigger families here as well then the demand will far exceed the supply and then what? I don't have an answer to what the solution is, but we do have to ask these type of questions.

    One thing I don't understand and I am not judging the people for it is (for example the family on this episode who's annual income is only $15,000) why keep having more children and making it that much more difficult to survive?
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  • Avatar of aprildo777

    aprildo777

    [10]Jul 14, 2008
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    TheRoutine wrote:
    One thing I don't understand and I am not judging the people for it is (for example the family on this episode who's annual income is only $15,000) why keep having more children and making it that much more difficult to survive?
    Usually this is because of their religion. A vast majority of Mexicans, and other Latin Americans for that matter, are Roman Catholic. And in traditional Catholicism, it is considered wrong or otherwise looked down upon to use birth control. It's the "be fruitful and multiply" argument.
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  • Avatar of marvelfan89

    marvelfan89

    [11]Jul 15, 2008
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    aprildo777 wrote:
    TheRoutine wrote:
    One thing I don't understand and I am not judging the people for it is (for example the family on this episode who's annual income is only $15,000) why keep having more children and making it that much more difficult to survive?
    Usually this is because of their religion. A vast majority of Mexicans, and other Latin Americans for that matter, are Roman Catholic. And in traditional Catholicism, it is considered wrong or otherwise looked down upon to use birth control. It's the "be fruitful and multiply" argument.

    I'am not so sure it's a religion thing sometimes it's a government thing from the view of these families...the lower the income and the more kids you have the more programs you might get over a family with a higher income and just as many kids (welfare, food stamps, free lunch programs, free if not low cost to health care). I know many people who are poor and have way too many kids and aren't the slightest big catholic these include Mexicans and other Latin Americans so just like in America, I think there are other reasons why this is happening.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/26/health/main542079.shtml

    http://www.metrokc.gov/health/insurance/families.htm

    Edited on 07/15/2008 8:05pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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