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30 Days Forums

Planet Green (ended 2008)

"Same Sex Parenting" episode

Do you think gay people should legally adopt raise children?

  • Avatar of yroston

    yroston

    [41]Jul 29, 2008
    • member since: 09/05/04
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 11

    I dont have much time to reply,

    But you dont seem to understand the bible at all. All of what you've just written is about the bible being sadistic because it believed in slavery.

    If you have learned the bible you will see that the slavery the bible talks about is not the same slavery that you conjure up in your mind. First of all the slavery in the bible is when one sells himself because he has no money. Two it says in the bible that a slave must be treated properly. Even more than that, there are punishments written for mistreating a servant etc.

    So, dont go bashing the bible, when you dont even understand it.

    Oh, and by the way there is still slavery around the world. So although I shun it like you maybe if people with slaves were to follow the bible things wouldnt be nearly this bad. The problem is that the people with slaves nowadays are ones that mistreat people. Slavery is supposed to be a way to help a homeless person stay alive. It offers them a job, and although it is minimum wage it does offer food, shelter and clothing in moderate amounts - if you follow the bible. If only we had that type of slavery today, there would not be homeless people dying all the time or stealing to make a penny for food. Maybe people wouldnt even join gangs which in many instances are initiated to get out of dire constraints. It's a hard job, but one that keeps you alive and healthy.

    So, now that you understand that the slavery from the bible is not the sadistic and evil slavery commited in the united states and the one that continues worldwide. What else are you going to try and bash the bible with until you realize that whatever G-d wrote is for the good of the people. And that this guidebook was written to help people survive in peace and harmony and not G-d Forbid the opposite.

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  • Avatar of marvelfan89

    marvelfan89

    [42]Jul 31, 2008
    • member since: 06/15/05
    • level: 39
    • rank: Fonzerelli
    • posts: 2,677

    Actually you don't know much about the bible. You state some stuff from the Old Testament which shows gays should be looked down and say that God ordains such things yet you ignore other controversial passages in the old testament such as the slavery part which paints quite an ugly picture. Show me how I don't know the bible when I'am posting stuff that's actually in the old testament otherwise you're just rambling on like you have been since the start of this of thread.

    BTW You should know that Ten Commandments words written by God given to Moses says that "thou shall not kill" that is significantly different from the passages you have posted.

    ========================================================

    If you have learned the bible you will see that the slavery the bible talks about is not the same slavery that you conjure up in your mind. First of all the slavery in the bible is when one sells himself because he has no money. Two it says in the bible that a slave must be treated properly. Even more than that, there are punishments written for mistreating a servant etc.

    ====================================================================

    Slavery is still slavery no matter you try to spin it. Actually the quote I posted still follows traditional forms of slavery. Yes it differs in that it's not race form of slavery we think of but it still is very similiar with what we associate slavery with which is to own somebody and treat them however you want. Yes the bible says a slave must be treated properly but also gives enough substance to say it endorses slavery. Tell me why doesn't the bible condemn slavery?

    Ask for this crap about slaves being treated properly you never refuted this passage which whole heartedly endorses beating up a slave:

    " When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property. (Exod. 21:20-21)"

    Sadly despite what you assert about slavery the passages in the bible says otherwise and paints a similar picture to what slavery is, saying a person does it because they have a debt to pay is a weak point to say the least because all the conotations about how you own a slave and treat are still very consistent with other forms of slavery which you seem to ignore

    http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm

    " Many Jews and Christians will try to ignore the moral problems of slavery by saying that these slaves were actually servants or indentured servants."

    Hmmm that's you here.

    "Many translations of the Bible use the word "servant", "bondservant", or "manservant" instead of "slave" to make the Bible seem less immoral than it really is. While many slaves may have worked as household servants, that doesn't mean that they were not slaves who were bought, sold, and treated worse than livestock" (living proof refuting what you just said coming up):

    "However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)"

    Nuff said the part abou treating them like property speaks for itself and sort of throws away special treeatment you think the Bible guidebook would say.

    ===============================================Oh, and by the way there is still slavery around the world. So although I shun it like you maybe if people with slaves were to follow the bible things wouldnt be nearly this bad. The problem is that the people with slaves nowadays are ones that mistreat people. Slavery is supposed to be a way to help a homeless person stay alive. It offers them a job, and although it is minimum wage it does offer food, shelter and clothing in moderate amounts - if you follow the bible. If only we had that type of slavery today, there would not be homeless people dying all the time or stealing to make a penny for food. Maybe people wouldnt even join gangs which in many instances are initiated to get out of dire constraints. It's a hard job, but one that keeps you alive and healthy.

    BTW you're not telling me anything I don't already know and you are still wrong. Yes slavery still exists. Not to sound rude but how warped is your thinking in saying that if people with slaves followed the bible ways of treating it wouldn't be "this bad". You don't seriously believe this crap do you? I hope not. I really hope not. Slavery is supposed to be a way to help a homeless person stay alive? Where the hell do you get these crazy ideas from tell me I've never heard such nonsense in my life. All the other things you say I agree to help the homeless but please leave the word slavery out of it. The way to help homeless simply is rehabilitate them, yes offer them a job, but NOT OWN them which is what slavery implies, and make sure they aren't going back to their old habits. This actually would require a massive effort and a lots of dollars by government to pull this off and so far it hasn't happened. That's the solution not slavery. Same thing with gangs....gangs are a totally different and complicated matter with many variables. I know because I knew plenty of gang members but was never myself in one. Wey too much detail to get through but part of the problem is lack of parenting-yes by a mother and father-lack of discipline, sometimes it's peer pressure too many variables.

    Again slavery does not guarantee anything even the Bible's version of slavery which is not much different isn't really set to help the person merely make them somebody else's property. That's in a nutshell. There is no guarantee that their lives would be better. There's no reason to believe a slave owner would actually follow the bible's recommendation of treating a slave. Again you if you followed the bible you'd find several cruel passages that paint less than a stellar picture of treating a slave so don't tell me I don't know the Bible:

    http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm

    "The following passage describes how the Hebrew slaves are to be treated."

    If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

    LMAO. So much for slavery actually being different from other forms of slavery we know. Read that part where the slave is free but his wife and children aren't and still belong to the slave owner that's eerily similar to the other versions of slavery to come. Disprove prove that if you can when it's right there in Exodus.

    =============================================

    So, now that you understand that the slavery from the bible is not the sadistic and evil slavery commited in the united states and the one that continues worldwide. What else are you going to try and bash the bible with until you realize that whatever G-d wrote is for the good of the people. And that this guidebook was written to help people survive in peace and harmony and not G-d Forbid the opposite

    Actually I disproved your warped point that the Bible's version of slavery is more civil and different than the other forms of slavery when it in fact still shares many similarities with the other barbaric forms of slavery. You don't know how to make a compelling argument which makes this thread a little boring by now. Read those passages I posted, which clearly are not very receptive, nor endearing to a slave back when the bible was being written and you'll see I'am not bashing anything that hasn't already been posted before. It seems then despite your best efforts all you can do is just ignore the facts over and over.

    "Whatever God wrote is for the good of the people" yes and in Ten Commandments he states though shall not kill so that previous post you mentioned about killing gays or persecuting in the old statements seems rather contradicting doesn't it? So either God changes his mind a lot or as many people will tell you not everything in the Bible would be God's will. Remember what I s said you can't have it both ways especially in religion-if you do then you have yourself a major contradiction in theology which the Catholic religion has had for many centuries.

    Edited on 08/01/2008 3:51am
    Edited 3 total times.
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  • Avatar of Myschly

    Myschly

    [43]Aug 25, 2008
    • member since: 09/11/06
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 76

    yroston wrote:
    the gays and lesbians, they believe that they are doing something that is correct, but in my opinion and all those who are religious it is a grave sin.
    If that were true, then why is the Swedish Church's position on gay marriage "it's up to the priest if he/she doesn't want to wed a gay couple, but our official standpoint is that we see nothing wrong with it"? The Christian party in Sweden isn't against gay marriage or gay adoption. I had a class where we discussed issues like these, and a girl who's a creationist had the opionion that gays should be able to marry and adopt, she had nothing against it. If you call a creationist non-religious, then I don't know what religious means anymore.

    Not all kinds of christianity is against homosexuality, not all muslims, jews, india has got a homosexual prince, who was a guest in Europride this year, a festival attended by LOADS of straight people, politicians of all kinds of parties, from all over the world.

    It's not just theists that are against homosexuality. Not even all Catholics agree on that.

    Draleex wrote:
    First of all its completely disgusting, second of all gay people cant have babies which hurts the population, third of all its compeltely against what a man should be, and last of all strait people are the majority and most of us say no gays so there you go no gays.
    1. A lot of people feel sick at the thought of 2 people weighing 250 pounds having sex. Do you want to impose a "max weight" for a sexually active married couple?

    2. I'm going to divide this into several arguments:

    2a) Infertile people can't have babies, what do you suggest be done about them?

    2b) Let's say all gay activities were prohibited, do you think they'd all just go off and live a fake life where everything's a lie? (and would that be a good thing!?) No. They'd be single and maybe miserable, all their lives, aka NO BABIES.

    2c) There's more than enough kids in fostercare in the USA alone. If all the gays in the world were allowed to adopt, maybe you wouldn't see 8-year olds selling their bodies in some cities. Maybe you wouldn't see kids starving to death. The world is overpopulated, most of the children in the world are living in very poor conditions. There isn't a shortage of children in the world, there's a shortage of healthy environments for children to grow up in.

    3. According to that idea, we should install a "manliness test law" for anyone to become a dad. Hmmm... How many straight men would that exclude?

    4. "The majority" is not a guarantee for success. Slavery was favored by the majority for quite a long time in the USA. Why not throw in a bit of your own medicine, "The majority wanted Jesus to die, instead of Barabbas". You tell me that the majority's always right, every single time. Simply saying "the majority wants it" isn't an argument for it being right.

    Also, there's the question whether you're speaking for the majority, or if you only think you're speaking for it.

    I'm offended by all the "no gay parents/marriage". I base that on the same thing I base all my morals on. "What if that was me?". What if I weren't allowed to marry the one I loved, what if I weren't allowed to have kids (I'm going to adopt, even though I'm not sterile), for something that doesn't have a rational argument for it?

    The "a child needs a mother and a father"-argument doesn't work. History shows time and again that fathers have raped their daughters, mothers beating their sons. Just read "The boy called 'it'" for crying out loud! His mother beat him, kept him in the basement, poisoned him, didn't allow him to eat, while his father tried to drink the problem away.
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  • Avatar of purceli

    purceli

    [44]Jan 27, 2009
    • member since: 01/14/08
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 45
    I can't believe some people. Gays can't have babies?? Most people who have sex are not doing so to reproduce, with that logic people shouldn't be allowed to have sex unless its to reproduce. But seriously gays can have babies? yes they can! it's called sperm donors and surrogates! The same thing straight couples use when they can't conceive. A Child needs a mother and a father? so singles are not allowed to have children either? As a woman and a lesbian though, what hit me the most was when Kati said to the lesbian mother who had no rights to see her son, that too bad, she shouldn't have had a child to begin with, that even though she was a woman, she didn't have the right to have a child. a woman does not have the right to have a child? so only one man and one woman, who believe in God, are allowed to have children?? Of course if that same lesbian woman became pregnant she wouldn't have the right to abort the fetus. This episode just showed that it is not possibly to have a logical discussion with the only people God loves because their answers to everything is "It's my belief" and/or "God or the Bible says so" What I find funny is that it's us that don't believe in God or the Bible who actually know what the the bible says. In the entire bible there are only six passages referring to homosexuality. But when Jesus appears in the New Testament he set the old rules of the vengeful and wrathful god aside! He himself did not speak of homosexuality but he did preach love and forgiveness and urged us to not judge our fellow man but to embrace them. So let's let go of the hateful and outdated ideas and keep the true message of Jesus (the man you love so much), love our neighbors as ourselves!

    I hope people can get over the bible and understand that God isn't going to end the world (although humans might in the name of God) and we need to love each other and stop trying to take away basic human rights! Two consenting adults should be able to love each and built a life together, including children, no matter what their gender.
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  • Avatar of SilentDeath50

    SilentDeath50

    [45]Apr 9, 2009
    • member since: 01/18/06
    • level: 2
    • rank: Sweat Hog
    • posts: 6
    This may come as quite the shocker to most of you, but as a Christian myself, I was disheartened by her constant negative reactions towards the family. Now I will admit, I do agree with other Christians who believe that homosexuality is a sin, and I don't agree with gay marraige. However, and this may be because I am more progressive than conservative, I do believe that gays have just the same right and privilage to raise kids as straights. I do not believe that either side is any better or any worse at raising a kid just because of their sexual orientation - determination of what makes a good parent or caregiver goes far beyond that. My belief in regards to this is that as long as you are a good caregiver, you have an authentic concern and truely love the child, and really want what's best for her, homosexual or heterosexual, you should be allowed to adopt or foster.
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  • Avatar of iamfeklar

    iamfeklar

    [46]Mar 18, 2010
    • member since: 03/18/10
    • level: 1
    • rank: Weatherman
    • posts: 1

    Watched this episode and was amazed that no one set this lady "straight" about a handful of important issues:


    1. Near the beginning of the show, the Mormon lady (who seemed very nice, just very confused), asserted that being gay is a moral choice she doesn't agree with. My question to her and all people who hold this perspective: "WHAT DAY DID YOU CHOOSE YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION? WAS THERE A TIME WHEN YOU WERE ENTERING PUBERTY AND YOU LIKED GUYS AND GIRLS THE SAME, BUT JUST DECIDED TO CHOOSE ONE?" OF COURSE NOT!! This is a bs-ending question, because the answer is always the same. NO ONE CHOOSES THEIR SEXUALITY. NO ONE. And that's what these folks need to get. The only CHOICE is to lie or tell the truth. So, making an immoral choice is impossible if you were never given a choice.


    2. The Mormon Lady asserted several times that her religion is traditional and its this traditional form of marriage that she is upholding because God commands her to. Ever read the history of MORMONISM? Originally, marriage for MORMONS was defined as one man and lots of women. That's the ORIGINAL DEFINITION OF MORMON MARRIAGE. Why is it ok for MORMONS to change their definition of marriage, while asserting that no one should ever change the definition of marriage? Wouldn't this lady make more sense if she said they were polygamists? That would be traditional.


    3. What's with the Christian Persecution Complex? Christians have run everything for the last 2000 years. Everything. And they still do, especially in the United States. They have complete freedom of religion, no one is attacking them on their way to or from church, or telling them what religion they must or must not have. They decide. THEY MAKE A CHOICE AND THEIR CHOICE PROTECTED BY THE CONSTITUTION AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS! Their theology says the wold and everyone who isn't a christian is evil... maybe that's where they are getting it?


    To wrap this up. Gays are born gay just like straights are born straight. And some people are born in-between. If you don't want gay marriage, don't marry a gay Christians, wake up and realize your CHOICES are protected, but you are the ONLY ones who are making a choice here.

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