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Planet Green (ended 2008)

The "Minuteman" feels his views were twisted...

  • Avatar of PikeBishop

    PikeBishop

    [1]Jul 28, 2006
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    by selective editing.

    http://www.vdare.com/misc/060718_jorge.htm

    After the light treatment Spurlock gave Islam last year, can't say I am surprised.

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    Discage

    [2]Aug 2, 2006
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    Not a surprise, I'm sure they did. They all do in the so-called reality tv scheme.

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    witchychick

    [3]Aug 3, 2006
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    Reading that article and having seen the episode, I think that the subject was entirely too sensitive about the editing and cutting of the episode. There is nothing that he says about his views in his article that I couldn't tell by watching the episode. I did not think that he had changed his mind about illegal immigration by the end of the 30 day period. I thought, as with most of the episodes of this show, that it did allow him to view this issue from a different perspective and have a little more compassion and understanding. Rather than viewing all illegal immigrants as a an issue he was against, he was forced to view them as human beings.

    It's only a 45 minute show. They can't show every little thing he said. The "context" he believe is missing from some of his remarks and comments, I believe, was not really neccessary to understanding his views. I certainly did not require it.

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  • Avatar of lbcyber

    lbcyber

    [4]Aug 3, 2006
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    I sincerely doubt Frank would've been satisfied with anything short of a direct condemnation of illegal immigration. Morgan has a thesis to prove, that much is clear. However, there's a crucial balance between editing and exposition to maintain a documentary's trustworthiness and coherence. Take Luis Buñuel's Las Hurdes as an example. The one thing I admire about Morlock, aside from sharing my views, is that he offers information through less biased means. He's still proving a point, but he isn't cheating to get there, despite what the minuteman might think.
    Edited on 08/03/2006 9:33am
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  • Avatar of ShanghaiPatsy

    ShanghaiPatsy

    [5]Aug 3, 2006
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    lbcyber wrote:
    I sincerely doubt Frank would've been satisfied with anything short of a direct condemnation of illegal immigration. Morgan has a thesis to prove, that much is clear. However, there's a crucial balance between editing and exposition to maintain a documentary's trustworthiness and coherence. Take Luis Buñuel's Las Hurdes as an example. The one thing I admire about Morlock, aside from sharing my views, is that he offers information through less biased means. He's still proving a point, but he isn't cheating to get there, despite what the minuteman might think.

    I love Morgan Spurlock, but I think he cheated a little.  As a human interest story it was fine, but while he gave statistics and facts/figures to bolster the hardship of the illegal family he didn't go into the statistics, facts/figures of what it is doing to border states.  Nor did he tackle questions like - do these families feel there is a limit to what the US can absorb?  Are cities with large illegal populations turning into what they left behind?  Why haven't the parents learned any English after 12 years?  Spurlock presented a totally emotional scenario and, to me, that makes for a cheap persuasion.  He can do better.

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    ShraZ_Zy

    [6]Aug 4, 2006
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    he's a redneck who voted for bush
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  • Avatar of PikeBishop

    PikeBishop

    [7]Aug 4, 2006
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    ShanghaiPatsy wrote:

    lbcyber wrote:
    I sincerely doubt Frank would've been satisfied with anything short of a direct condemnation of illegal immigration. Morgan has a thesis to prove, that much is clear. However, there's a crucial balance between editing and exposition to maintain a documentary's trustworthiness and coherence. Take Luis Buñuel's Las Hurdes as an example. The one thing I admire about Morlock, aside from sharing my views, is that he offers information through less biased means. He's still proving a point, but he isn't cheating to get there, despite what the minuteman might think.

    I love Morgan Spurlock, but I think he cheated a little.  As a human interest story it was fine, but while he gave statistics and facts/figures to bolster the hardship of the illegal family he didn't go into the statistics, facts/figures of what it is doing to border states.  Nor did he tackle questions like - do these families feel there is a limit to what the US can absorb?  Are cities with large illegal populations turning into what they left behind?  Why haven't the parents learned any English after 12 years?  Spurlock presented a totally emotional scenario and, to me, that makes for a cheap persuasion.  He can do better.

    Yeah, I especially thought the visit to Mexico was an emotional cheap shot.  "Yeah Morgan we get it! We understand why they want to come here.  WE yield that point on emotional grounds." But this episode featured no look at the drain on US law enforcement, social services, education  (BTW  I have taught middle school in small town Texas and I could tell you a few tales about this) and health care.  How about the idea that if milllions keep pouring over the border pretty soon all our border states WILL look like that place in Mexico.  They come here for a better life, but their large families and incredible demand on social services will soon put them right back home.

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  • Avatar of lbcyber

    lbcyber

    [8]Aug 4, 2006
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    As a Canadian, I really don't want to get into this sort of argument, but I really have to get this off my chest:

    PikeBishop wrote:
    How about the idea that if milllions keep pouring over the border pretty soon all our border states WILL look like that place in Mexico. They come here for a better life, but their large families and incredible demand on social services will soon put them right back home.


    Utter drivel.  You can't reason such a hypothetical scenario as if it were really going to happen.  You don't know it will.  Canada has be known for its relatively open borders, and not only is the country's jobless rate at the lowest it's been in many, many decades, it's become prosperous enough to maintain free healthcare. 

    The blame can't be placed on the Mexican people.  What they're doing is illegal in respect to American laws, I can't challenge that.  What Spurlock established (and what even the minuteman conceded to) is that these people are only doing what they can to protect their family.  What about the businesses that exploit these people by hiring them at sub-minimum wages?  Shouldn't they share some blame in this?

    I don't have an optimal solution.  I don't think anyone does.  Regardless, the Statue of Liberty still stands.
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  • Avatar of PikeBishop

    PikeBishop

    [9]Aug 5, 2006
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    lbcyber wrote:
    As a Canadian, I really don't want to get into this sort of argument, but I really have to get this off my chest:

    PikeBishop wrote:
    How about the idea that if milllions keep pouring over the border pretty soon all our border states WILL look like that place in Mexico. They come here for a better life, but their large families and incredible demand on social services will soon put them right back home.


    Utter drivel.  You can't reason such a hypothetical scenario as if it were really going to happen.  You don't know it will.  Canada has be known for its relatively open borders, and not only is the country's jobless rate at the lowest it's been in many, many decades, it's become prosperous enough to maintain free healthcare. 

    The blame can't be placed on the Mexican people.  What they're doing is illegal in respect to American laws, I can't challenge that.  What Spurlock established (and what even the minuteman conceded to) is that these people are only doing what they can to protect their family.  What about the businesses that exploit these people by hiring them at sub-minimum wages?  Shouldn't they share some blame in this?

    I don't have an optimal solution.  I don't think anyone does.  Regardless, the Statue of Liberty still stands.

    1.  Yeah, and Canada has a nice three thousand mile or so (prosperous peaceful neighbor as a ) buffer zone between it and Mexico so what's your point?

    2.  I won't even touch upon your glorious "free" health care system and its legendary fairness and efficiency.  (Just check out all the appointment books for American specialists in places like Detroit and Buffalo)  And, in this day and age of global terrorism, we here in the States are just over-joyed about your "we'll let anyone in" immigration policy.

    3.  The blame however can be placed on the legendarily corrupt and incompetant Mexican government who still run the place like a giant version of New York's Tammany Hall Machine from the 19th Century.  Mexico itself needs to change and I don't see that happening anytime soon.

    4.  How do you know "it" won't happen?  As I said, I have first hand experience of the drain on our social services thanks to illegal immigration.  Go look up the percentage of our prison population that is illegal?  OR check out the number of hospitals in California that are financially INSOLVENT because of providing free health care to illegals. 

    5.  You and I are in complete agreement on cracking down on the employers.  Amen Brother!  While you're sending the illegals back over the border start sending those contractors, small and large business owners to jail.  Its like the drug trade. If people weren't buying it; no one would be supplying it.

    6.  Go read my post related to this episode under the "cute Princeton chick" thread and see perhaps my biggest complaint about illegals.

    Edited on 08/05/2006 10:29am
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  • Avatar of lbcyber

    lbcyber

    [10]Aug 5, 2006
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    I won't acknowledge a "possible future" as any sort of argument in this. Bringing up something so purely hypothetical is absolutely ridiculous. I won't go that route.

    You'd be surprised by how many illegal immigrants exist in Canada. The most recent estimates by the Globe and Mail count as many as 200'000. In relation to Canada's overall population, that's a rather big number. They aren't Mexican, obviously, but typically immigrants who have failed their refugee claims and evaded deportation, or those who have remained in the country despite the expiration of their visas.

    I can't defend the government for their open-door policies. Personally, I WOULD like more responsible borders, for the security of both our countries. This shouldn't be confused with anti-immigration though. Despite its problems, I'm proud of Canada's multiculturalism, and will defend it as the best kind of society on earth. Our healthcare isn't perfect, of course. Regardless, while it's much cheaper, it's consistently been determined to be just as effective overall as its American counterpart.
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    nihir

    [11]Aug 6, 2006
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    Finally a level-headed person. Good posts Ibcyber
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    ShanghaiPatsy

    [12]Aug 6, 2006
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    lbcyber wrote:

    I won't acknowledge a "possible future" as any sort of argument in this. Bringing up something so purely hypothetical is absolutely ridiculous. I won't go that route.

    You'd be surprised by how many illegal immigrants exist in Canada. The most recent estimates by the Globe and Mail count as many as 200'000. In relation to Canada's overall population, that's a rather big number. They aren't Mexican, obviously, but typically immigrants who have failed their refugee claims and evaded deportation, or those who have remained in the country despite the expiration of their visas.

    I can't defend the government for their open-door policies. Personally, I WOULD like more responsible borders, for the security of both our countries. This shouldn't be confused with anti-immigration though. Despite its problems, I'm proud of Canada's multiculturalism, and will defend it as the best kind of society on earth. Our healthcare isn't perfect, of course. Regardless, while it's much cheaper, it's consistently been determined to be just as effective overall as its American counterpart.


    You are labeling people who are anti-illegal immigration as "anti-immigration" and against diverse populations.  The US has a history of having a diverse population.  We would just like to have it continue legally and with balance so that our systems and infrastructure, etc. can handle it.  I find it interesting that you talk about how open Canada is and  yet you have the same type of processing for permanent residency as many countries and tougher than some.  You do not allow unskilled labor into your country, and I don't believe you provide services to illegal immigrants.
    Canada is not the US - we have an illegal immigration problem of immense proportions in the Southwest.  You can ignore all the fiscal problems that it brings with it - but that isn't going to make it go away.  Nor is it going to keep it from spreading.  Many illegals have left the Southwest for other parts of the country specifically because they are now being undercut by every successive wave of illegals that come.  Oh yes, our businesses  that hire and our gov't contribute to the problem by not enforcing laws that exist.
    Sorry for the length of this, but I am tired of people making blanket assumptions about the  motives of people who believe that illegal immigration is a big problem and a very complicated one.  It is an easy way to ignore an ever growing and deteriorating situation.
    PS:  I do not know how I feel about national healthcare, but I have read that it stifles research.

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    rc8292

    [13]Aug 9, 2006
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    with all the rambling on about immigration, i think we forget just how complicated it truly is. immigration is just one stem connected to all other problems we have in this nation and it all starts at money.

    the money gap between the rich and the poor is really underestimated in this situation. continuously we hear about budget cuts to welfare/workfare, healthcare, education and many times when we hear it, it is attributed to factors, one such is illegal immigration and to which we get roused up by. however when, for example, the house and senate again vote for themselves a pay increase to go on top of the current six-figure salary and money from big companies, nobody really bats an eye to it. where does that money come from if we've already had to make cuts and taxes increases?

    of course the answer to the big why is because "they've worked hard to get where they are!" but i've always wondered why the hard work argument doesn't work for people who have to work hard just to make ends meet, as if they are the only ones who have done something illegal. many people who made money doing illegal things or legally through immoral means and as enron is showing us, it isn't holding up to such a small crime anymore. just because these people have done an illegal deed shouldn't exempt others for what others have contributed to an evergrowing problem.

    the point is, if you would like a little summary, that problems can't all be pinned on this issue of immigration and there is no easy answer to any of this. stop illegal immigration (and i really doubt it would be fully stopped) and it just opens up another door of problems if we don't address the others as well.
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  • Avatar of frogman27

    frogman27

    [14]Aug 10, 2006
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    nihir wrote:
    Finally a level-headed person. Good posts Ibcyber
    The fact that someone agrees with you doesn't make them level headed. Just means you agree with them. Many of the immigrants work harder than most americans to make good homes for their families. They are a drain on the system because they can't get jobs with healthcare and can't join the mainstream system. Let them get papers. Make it possible for them to work for a decent wage at a job with health care, pay taxes and live like legal americans, and then tell me they're a drain on the system. You're belief's not "level headed". It's short sighted.
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    nihir

    [15]Aug 10, 2006
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    frogman27 wrote:
    The fact that someone agrees with you doesn't make them level headed. Just means you agree with them.


    Umm no. Level-headed doesn't mean I agree with someone. It means that someone is was sensible and remained calm and composed during an argument.

    Usually what happens around here is someone comes along and takes things personally or out of context.

    frogman27 wrote:
    You're belief's not "level headed". It's short sighted.


    You didn't do that. You just have an incorrect definition of a word and based your reply on that definition. It's sort of like you using "You're" instead of "Your" which you also did in that sentence.

    My beliefs weren't posted in this thread, so I'd appreciate you not commenting on them.

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    jeffonthego

    [16]Aug 12, 2006
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    I'm also Canadian, but I'd have to take exception to some of these comments:

    lbcyber wrote:
    You'd be surprised by how many illegal immigrants exist in Canada. The most recent estimates by the Globe and Mail count as many as 200'000. In relation to Canada's overall population, that's a rather big number. They aren't Mexican, obviously, but typically immigrants who have failed their refugee claims and evaded deportation, or those who have remained in the country despite the expiration of their visas.


    Sure, Canada has lots of illegal immigrants - there probably isn't a well-off developed country in the world that doesn't. But what Canada does have is a secure border with no less well-off neighbours - and that makes all the difference in the world. You can be a lot more relaxed about illigal immigrants when you know there aren't huge numbers of them massing at your borders. I don't blame Americans for being upset. And really it's unfair to compare the US to Canada. A better comparison for the US would be European countries that border North Africa, Turkey, etc. For its part, Canada is more comparable to the equally isolated Australia and New Zealand.

    lbcyber wrote:
    Despite its problems, I'm proud of Canada's multiculturalism, and will defend it as the best kind of society on earth.


    One of the biggest myths among Canadians is congratulating ourselves that Canada is multicultural, while the US is some kind of melting pot. This is simplistic and frankly plain incorrect. Yes, Canadian politicians continuously endorse this idea of uncoerced "multiculturalism", while Americans talk about a "melting pot". But in reality, on the ground, the countries are quite alike in terms of immigration. Immigrants to Canada also have to integrate and "melt in" to the society if you will - those who don't, risk marginalisation (a growing problem in the suburbs of Canada's large cities). Meanwhile, America is not one big melting pot - visit large US cities and you will find all kinds of "multicultural" diversity. The reality is that immigrants to the US, just like Canada or anywhere else, take several generations to really "melt in". And go interview second or especially third-generation immigrants to Canada and tell me they haven't "melted in" - of course they have, at least as much as their American immigrant counterparts.

    So let's do our American neighbours a favour and not preach to them with cliches. Yes, America has a lot of problems and I would prefer to live in Canada (largely due to the black/white socio-economic divide in the US, which is quite disturbing). But c'mon, Canada has got tonnes of problems too, not the least of which involve immigration.
    Edited on 08/12/2006 11:15pm
    Edited 3 total times.
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    LincolnBurrows

    [17]Aug 18, 2006
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    Oh no!!  The Mexicans are invading!!!   Everybody get your guns!!!

    Now you know how the Indians (Native Americans) felt when Europeans came over and took over their land.

    The only people who have a right to say "This person shouldn't be allowed to come to America" are the people who were born here.   I bet all of the people who complain about it came here from other countries anyway.   Legally, illegally... Who cares.   At least the Mexicans aren't coming in and committing mass genocide like Columbus.  Maybe if they did, we'd give them a holiday and close the banks for them once a year.

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    ladycatherine

    [18]Sep 2, 2006
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    frogman27 wrote:
    nihir wrote:
    Finally a level-headed person. Good posts Ibcyber
    The fact that someone agrees with you doesn't make them level headed. Just means you agree with them. Many of the immigrants work harder than most americans to make good homes for their families. They are a drain on the system because they can't get jobs with healthcare and can't join the mainstream system. Let them get papers. Make it possible for them to work for a decent wage at a job with health care, pay taxes and live like legal americans, and then tell me they're a drain on the system. You're belief's not "level headed". It's short sighted.


    I have a good job that pays well enough for me to have a 40k, (on my own) and I just started an IRA this year, my job does not have heath care. I get it throught the state I live in for my daughter. I was born in America, Does that mean I am a drain on the system.?
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    marvelfan89

    [19]Sep 11, 2006
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    I don't feel Spurlock cheated, neither do I feel that the minuteman's views were twisted, it's pretty clear what his views are. If you are illegal alien you don't belong here, regardless if the US Corporations like to exploit you, and then use you over their workers for cheap labor.  Most of these minuteman people I've seen and read are total hypocrites. They're angry over the many illegal immigrants yet don't see to put their anger at the corporations hiring them or the gonverment because this shatters their faith in America as being clean, and honest. Plus the whole notion of this being their country is total crap as well, it's always hilarious how these type of people often tend to ignore the real truth because it messes up their agenda.
    Edited on 09/11/2006 1:58am
    Edited 2 total times.
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    DrLar

    [20]Jun 3, 2008
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    LincolnBurrows wrote:

      At least the Mexicans aren't coming in and committing mass genocide like Columbus.  Maybe if they did, we'd give them a holiday and close the banks for them once a year.



    You need to either read more history or tune in to the History channel, Columbus did discover America, but Cortes was the mass murderer and thief, now how many cities or towns are named Hernan Cortes in all the continent? I think none....
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