Season 5 Episode 8


Aired Wednesday 9:00 PM Nov 19, 2003 on The WB

Episode Fan Reviews (12)

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out of 10
422 votes
  • So now we know the answer to that question


    The Good;

    The fight, the race, the flashbacks, all great! And the great ending. The Fred/Eve hurt/comfort scene is also very powerful

    The Bad;

    As they point out in the commentary the Alice Cooper eyeshadow. Also the idea that Lorne would just lock himself in his office, I mean this is the guy who went to fight the Beast.

    Best line;

    Spike; "Mountan Dew!"

    Jeez, how did they get away with that?

    Gunn throttling Eve is horrible, reminds you of Lilah/Gavin. Spike and Angelus crashing the wedding.

    Apocalypses: 5

    Angel Cliches

    In disguise; 8

    DB/JM get's his shirt off; 17,

    Cheap Angel; 7

    Subverting the cliche;

    Mountain Dew! Also when Fred tries to sympathise with Eve and Eve rejects her concern.

    Fang Gang in bondage: Gunn chained to the bed

    Cordy: 5

    Angel: 14

    Wes: 7

    Gunn; 7

    Lorne; 5

    Fred; 3

    Fang gang knocked out: Gunn doped up

    Cordy: 15

    Angel: 19

    Wes: 8

    Doyle; 1

    Gunn; 3

    Lorne; 7

    Groo; 1

    Connor; 1

    Faith; 1

    Fred; 4


    Cordy: 5 vamps, 3 demons

    Angel; 45 vamps, 61 and 1/2 demons, 5 zombies, 12 humans, one werewolf and one cyborg

    Doyle; 1 vamp

    Wes; 14 demons+5 vamps, 5 zombies, 3 humans, 2 cyborgs

    Kate; 3 vamps

    Faith; 18 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.

    Gunn; 11 vamps+ 13 demons, 5 zombies, 1 human.

    Groo; 1 demon

    Fred; 3 vamps+ 2 demon, 5 zombies

    Connor; 16 vamps, 5 zombies, 2 demons, Jasmine

    Fang Gang go evil: Gunn big time

    Cordy: 3

    Angel: 3

    Gunn; 1

    Wes; 1

    Alternate Fang Gang;

    Cordy: 4

    Angel: 11

    Fred; 2

    Wes; 1

    Gunn; 1

    Connor; 1

    Lorne; 1

    Characters killed:


    Recurring characters killed;


    Total number of Angel Investigations; 5,

    Angel, Gunn, Fred, Lorne, Wes,

    Angel Investigations shot:

    Angel: 14

    Wes; 2

    Packing heat;

    Wes; 11

    Doyle; 1

    Angel; 4

    Gunn; 3

    Fred; 3

    Notches on Fang Gang bedpost: Spike get's 'solid' again and jumps on top of a willing Harmony like the dumb tramp she is

    Cordy: 5 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo+Connor plus possibly the Beast

    Angel: 6; Buffy, Darla, The Transcending Furies, Eve

    Wes; 3 definite; Virginia, the bleached blonde and Lilah, 1 possible, Justine

    Gunn; 2 Fred and Gwen.

    Fred; 1 Gunn

    Groo; 1Cordy

    Spike; 3-Buffy, Anya, Harmony

    Kinky dinky:

    Spike and Harmony on the desk. Unromantic but having been denied the touch of a woman (or anything else) for so long hardly suprising Spike jumps on the first (room temperature) body he can get? Angelus and Dru, much to Spike's dismay. Dru refers to Spike as 'sweet willy'. Darla still devoted to her Master much to Angelus's disgust. Spike let's slip about the circumstances of him killing his mother, Harmony comments how it explains a lot. Fred knows what the term 'nooner' means. Love Eve's dress and the sexy striptease she does at the end. Gunn cautions Eve 'Don't be touching the robots'. Spike describes sex with Buffy as 'putting it to her'. Gunn says that Fred might want to tie him down again, does he mean when he went crazy or when they were dating?

    Captain Subtext;

    Angelus comments that he's sick of the company of just women and asks Spike if he thinks he's 'deviant'? Angel asks the newly corporeal Spike to stop touching him. Angelus bids Spike to be 'Home before sunrise' again casting the Fanged Four as a sort of family with him as the father and Spike as the son. Eve calls Fred 'princess' and 'sweetie', Spike calls Angel a ponce. Spike is happy to voyeuristically watch Angelus having sex until he realises it's with Dru. As with Lover's Walk, souled Angel still knows how to push Spike's buttons. Once again Spike and Dru seem to retain some aspect of humanity which other vamps lack, Angelus saying that vamps can't know true love ('Nothing is yours')and Spike and Dru intent on trying anyway. Spike also hugs Gunn and asks him to go drinking with him at the end of the ep. Even Joss comments upon the ***-eroticism of the Spike/Angel scenes.

    Know the face, different character; 5

    Parking garages;


    Buffy characters on Angel; 16.

    Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony. POSSIBLY The First Evil

    What the fanficcers thought;

    A great gift for Spangelers

    Questions and observations;

    No Wes who's on a leave of abscence, possibly heading home to visit his folks after the events of Lineage (Alexis Dennisof in real life marrying Alysson Hannigan the lucky bugger). I'm sure the idea of everyone being sent mad by a phonecall was a Stephen King book? Eve quotes The Music Man. Hell of a tumble MM's stuntwoman takes when Spike hits her. Instead of racing Spike why doesn't Angel use his helicopter? Presumably Angel and Spike reach the opera house at the same time because Angel already knows where it is?

    DB apparently loves doing his Irish accent. Has he ever heard it? Gunn sees the howling abyss but obviously the budget won't stretch that far so the rest of us don't get to.

    Spike is right of course, he IS better than Angel because he fought to get his soul back. He blames Angel(us) not for making him a vampire but for making him the evil monster of a vampire he was, that it was Angelus' influence that made him worse than all the rest. Spike comments that Dru still has a bit of a child in her, like him she still retains some humanity. Or he retains some humanity BECAUSE she was his sire.

    Angel asks Spike does he want the destiny because it's his or because it's something to take away from Angel? You could make the same argument for Buffy, did Spike love her for his own sake or because she was Angel's and he wanted her for himself? As revenge for Angelus/Dru?

    And of course, Spike beats Angel in a fair fight! I guess that's one question answered. Does the title Destiny refer to Angel and Spike or might it actually refer to Lindsey who thinks his destiny is to run WR&H?

    Marks out of 10; 9/10 for the Angel(us)/Spike scenes alone

  • An episode about Spike.. again.

    Destiny is a good episode that would have been great if it hadn't been ANOTHER Spike episode in a season just full of them. I like Spike but at this point I'm getting sick of him, as he's just getting too overused at this point and it grates.

    I usually enjoy flashback episodes but here I was quite disappointed. Seeing Drusilla again was great and she was as fun as ever but they could have done so much more with them. Why no Darla? She's the best character out of the Fanged Four (IMO) and she could have easily fitted in here. If she had of I would have probably loved this episode but unfortunately she was nowhere to be seen. Season 5 just has a supreme lack of her. Secondly, we only get four short flashbacks that were all quite lame. It was interesting to see that Drusilla is the reason Spike and Angel are less than fond of each other but the flashbacks weren't too great and Drusilla was quite underused.

    I really didn't care for the whole Chalice of Torment thing as it was just sort of forced in order to have a Spike vs. Angel showdown. Their speeches were just overdramatic, especially Angel (who's melodrama really grates on me at times). All that stuff "It's a burden", it's like "Stop whining Angel!". And to add salt to the wound, Spike gets the chalice! Of course it's only Mountain Dew but to have our main character and the reason he fights get screwed over by Blondie Bear who's only been in 10 episodes is just aggravating. We get invested in a plot and I for one don't want to see Spike win the battle for humanity- it's rightfully Angel's. I enjoyed the Eve scenes, especially when Gunn tries to strangle her. Just when you feel all sorry for her, she reveals she's working with Lindsey. Why they brought Lindsey back baffles me, as I never liked him and he was pointless this season. I'm really not a fan of Christian Kane's acting and find his repeated smirking just irritating. He puts me off Lindsey.

    Destiny is a great episode marred by the poor flashbacks and the wrong person getting the cup. It's not a series best but it's worth a watch. Just don't go thinking it's going to be awesome though.
  • This episode contains the best fighting secuence of the series. Angel vrs. Spike!!! I couldn't had wrote this episode better.

    This episode rocks because of having the best fight ever on television. Here we see our two most liked characters determining who is better. We finally see here full use of their vampire powers in a long time. The ending was also incredible showing that Spike is the winner of this fight.
    For me and every ANGEL fan, this was the best result of it. I know that if Angel would had the victory in this fight, he would had only obtained it by killing Spike, thet is why is Spike deserved to win this battle: he forgives Angel's life.
    This episode opens a great story when we finally see that Lindsey returns and is the one that makes sure Angel and Spike battle each other. AWESOME EPISODE!!!
  • Destiny

    Destiny was a great episode of Angel and I really enjoyed watching Spike competing with Angel for the role of Champion in the ShanShu Prophecy. This episode had great character development, exciting action, drama, and humor. The story of this episode was interesting, and showed different sides to some of the characters. I thought it was interesting that Wesley's replacement was the same guy who Wesley defeated during his part of the tour at Wolfram and Hart. The ending of this episode was a surprise and perhaps a clue to who helped Spike become corporeal again. I look forward to watching the next episode!!!!
  • spike beats angel spike is a hero spike blablabla

    this is one of the worst episodes of the show i cant believe how the writers gave the fans a big slap in the face. the show turned all about spike and i cant believe how much it made me hate him more. he wins of angel in the match what a surprise, it's spike's show anyway right?

    the writers wrote angel in the most annoying way and making him seem like a big loser, why, why, why? the episode was ridiculous from start to finish
  • The Battle for....Mountain Dew?

    Destiny-When another mysterious package arrives at Wolfram & Hart that recorporealizes Spike, the gang learns that the existence of two living ensouled vampire heroes has created chaos in the world. After Eve tells them about a prophecy that states that the only way to restore order is to find the Cup of Perpetual Torment that bestows human life, Angel and Spike battle it out for the ultimate prize. A series of flashbacks show the history of Angel and Spike and their relationship with Drusilla.

    Well it's time to take a break from those individual episodes kids and get down to some arcs, shall we! We've been wondering why Spike returned and why he got the amulet in the first place. Was it really for Angel? Or were the Senior Partners planning to give it Spike all along? Things get even more complicated when Spike becomes corporeal again thanks to another mysterious package. So, now with 2 vampires with a soul in flesh and blood, the world is thrown out of wack! I think this is one of the best developments of the whole series as now it makes the Shanshu prophecy more interesting. Is the prophecy meant for Angel...or is it Spike now? The best aspect of the episode is that it finally pits both vampires against each other without holding back. I loved the flashback scenes with Drusilla, it's always great to have Juliet Landu with her wacky performances. It's really great to see again after over 200 years of knowing each other, Spike and Angel still mirror each other and are connected even when they don't want to be. The fight scenes between the 2 were stunningly choreographed and writting during the scenes brought some great points. Spike was Angel's prodigy and ultimate apart of why Angel hates Spike. Angel is part of what made him into a monster and Angel sees himself in Spike, which disgusts him. Surprisely, Spike wins the fight and drinks out of the Holy Grail but is that mortality I'm it's...Mountain Dew...Huhh? All that fighting for Mountain Dew? Well, at least it wasn't Diet! There are some other great scenes like watching everyone going psycho especially when Gunn almost choked Eve to death. That was so hilarious, I alomst cheered him on!...not that I don't like Eve, it's just fun to see her b!tch persona destoryed time and time again. But one bizarre and off side is when Spike starts touching things again, the first thing he does is bang Harmony! Uhh, what happened to your undying love for Buffy? So you get mad when she kisses Angel a year ago but it's okay for you to bang anyone you want if she doesn't know about it? Wait, that's just a guy thing...nevermind, lol! To top the episode off, we end with quite the twist as Eve was behind false cup/Spike/corpearal situation but who is she? she getting naked?...who is that next to?...Lindsey! Clever devil, but what's he doing back? What's with the tattoes? The bad times are comin'! All and All, "Destiny" is one great episode full of action, drama, stellar flashbacks and Eve choking..yay!
  • Surprising turn.

    Now since Spike was brought over for Buffy it was obvious they were going to have a much bigger conflict between Spike and Angel that had nothing to do with Buffy, it was inevitable considering Spike's somewhat newly ensouled status. But I was very surprised the turn things took. When Spike and Angel began chasing after this cup of perpetual torment it was competition and fighting as usual. They were snarky and hit eachother bunches before things started to get different, also shown through a series of flashbacks that give us a little more insight into their complicated history with one another. This scene really does bring some insight as to why Spike hates Angel the way he does, going from way back before most of their time together and Buffy. Spike blames Angel for what he became, the monster he became and for the first time things really click. I never understood all the hate they had for one another, not completely, and I never realized how tormented by Angel Spike actually was. It seriously surprised, the entire episode takes a really surprising turn with this development. James brings a lot of raw emotion to their battle scene together, it feels very real and as I said very raw.
  • Race for the cup

    Alot of exciting things happen in this episode. Before I get to that, I have to address the folks who are griping because Spike "won." Get over it. We got more of a glimpse into the Spike/Angel dynamic than we ever have before, IMO. And I dont know about everyone else, but after what we already knew about how Angelus flaunted his relationship with Drusilla and what we learned in this ep, I say Spike was justified in kicking a little a&&. So Spike gets a package in the mail and Harmony opens it for him and there is a strange flash. Soon after, Spike realizes he has re-joined the land of the living, so to speak. Things start going haywire at Wolfram and Hart. Thanks to the assistance from Eve(il) and Sirk (remember him from Season 4 "Home") the gang (minus Wes who is away taking a break) find out that since Spike is corporeal and has a soul...he is in the running for the Shanshu. Sirk helps them with a translation in the shanshu that sends Angel and Spike off in search of a Cup of Perpetual Torment, fun huh? Throughout this ep we flashback to when Spike first met Angelus, and how he thought they were buddies but then Angelus betrays him in the worst way possible; he sleeps with Dru. Spike and Angel face off at an old opera house in Nevada and fight for the right to drink from the cup. Some of the best action I have seen so far! And the dialogue was awesome. Spike ends up besting Angel and drinks from the cup, and it turns out to be Mountain Dew. It was all a big joke. Angel is still bummed because Spike beat him for the first time. We dont find out until the end that the joke was cooked up by none other than Lindsay, who is Eves boyfriend. Things are gettin interesting!
  • I think someone should remind the writers of this series the show is in fact called ANGEL and not SPIKE

    This was as excellent episode right until the ending which saw Spike Defeat Angel to put in first in the running to be the vampire with a soul the the phrophecies discuses

    no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
    no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
    no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
    no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
    no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no
  • Well, the fight was a //lot// better than the resolution.

    The goal of this episode review is to figure out once and for all what Lindsey is up to.

    Eve brought up the amulet again, after the other box o' Spike showed up in the mail. I don't know if this is a mistake, since ...

    OK, remember in "Fredless," where CYNTHIA! was simply dumbfounded at the concept of using detective work to track a piece of unmarked mail back to a specific address? Well, I'll be honest with you. It's not easy to do.

    But if a private investigator with limited resources can do it for the Burkles, imagine what someone running a multinational and multidimensional state-of-the-art turnkey operation should be able to accomplish.

    That's not fair! you shriek. He's wearing tattoos.

    OK, fair enough. But not once in the course of Angel trying to figure out what the heck Eve is up to, he never had her followed? What, along with the power of immortality, she can vanish into thin air?

    Well, regardless of how clueless Angel has indeed proven himself to be in this matter, Lindsey has sent him two pieces of mail -- Spike's essence and his corporeality.

    Let me step off to the side here for a moment and comment on this. Fred exhausted her quarterly budget, even having fired a packet of staff people and, as far as I can tell, dimming her lights inexcusably. She couldn't come up with any way, physical or mystical, to recorporealize Spike.

    Lindsey, with access to, um, well, the demon essence he picked up in Nepal -- and forgive me, but how much money was he making as an associate? Because I count at least two years of making it on his own with no more capital investment than the crappy old truck he drove in with from Oklahoma to finance this grand pathetic revenge against Angel -- sends a burst of light in a box and viola!

    But aside from the money. Aside from the motive -- OK, Lilah gave the amulet to Angel, but Spike used it, and Lindsey, presumably, tracked it down and mailed it to W&H -- well, even if Lindsey sent it, he couldn't know that was gonna happen. And if he wanted Angel killed, there's easier and cheaper ways to do it (blow up the limo, for instance).

    But we must assume that the amulet -- which saved the world, btw -- originated with Lindsey, mostly because of this episode.

    Lindsey provided Part 2 -- the Incorporation.

    That box was very much him. It was not the Senior Partners because Eve said they didn't have a clue. It was a plan that they -- she and Lindsey -- had had, which had worked perfectly.

    So Part 3 is to turn Spike into Angel. Make him a champion. Make him the helper of the hopeless. Groom him as the anti-Angel. From their conversation, it was clear that Lindsey had more than half hoped Spike would dust Angel in fighting him.

    Spike's reactions throughout have been tough to read. He knows Angel is fighting the good fight. He knows Angel does field work. He knows Angel is nothing more nor less than the Angel he left "In the Dark" with a better office.

    So his incessant sneering betrays more than a little stupidity. Angel is no one he should be staking. If he was paying any attention at all, he'd know what Angel was up to. Consider that if Angel had made a single misstep -- ignored someone in trouble who came to him for help, had let a single thing happen to an innocent person -- Spike would've been all over him about it. All he could do is jeer at him for his comfy office suites and his fleet of cars -- both of which Spike availed himself of quickly enough.

    Same with the Shoop, comes to that.

    Spike's been the hero of his own story for so long he can't see past his own corneas. Angel put him in his place right quick, denigrating his quest for a soul as originating from lust for Buffy.

    Lord knows he didn't have to travel halfway around the world to win his soul back. Willow lives up the street and would be more than happy to curse him.

    But I digress. (It's part of my charm)

    If Lindsey was building his own champeen, you'd imagine him doing it sort of like the way he did it. But where did he get his access to information? Where did he learn about Spike having a soul? By all public sightings, Spike was tracking, stalking and eating people fully a month into his soulage, triggered by the First. Even the Scoobs didn't get the scoop for a good long while.

    And it's not likely he had deeper or greater access to mystical knowledge than Wesley did, so the box o' flash was a gimmick. A cheap-ass out for the writers who had no idea how to resolve what they'd set in motion.

    What -- I ask you -- what was Lindsey up to?

    Another problem is the tear in the universe, evidenced by calls from a zillion angry fax machines and a few employees who went a little nuts. I'd love for this to explain why Gunn going dark, but it can't. Gunn was just one of many who were affected by a temporary rage. The bloody eyes, the lashing out, that's frightening, but it's not the end of the world. And again, it resolved itself with no intervention on anyone's part.

    We got very few insights in this episode. We could've seen that Angel, Dru and Spike thing a century off, and they certainly had more history than that.

    The writers and directors in that terribly inadequate commentary were talking about how they, in the end, needed for Spike to win.

    Well, no. No you didn't. The show is called "Angel," and there shouldn't be a question that he's the Shoop guy. After all, he's faced all the stuff he needs to to be eligible. Spike hasn't come close.

    It was a good fight, but Angel should've won. Spike's the flavor of the month. He shouldn't be besting Angel in a reasonably fair fight for something this significant, even though it turned out to be meaningless.

    What I would've preferred is the value in misdirection. Why is Eve so excited about getting them off the premises? She does nothing with that opportunity she made happen with the assistance of Sirk. Instead, desert fight and swig-taking.

    Yes, it's a lovely bit of self-doubt, a seed that needs planting for "You're Welcome" to have the impact that it's meant to.

    And the interaction between Angel and Spike is itchy and fun.

    But they can't resolve the questions they raised.

    P.S. -- For all the magic Lindsey was apparently able to pull out of his bum, Eve was doing some incredible things, too. Most significantly, she turned the White Room into a howling abyss (unless that was also Lindsey, which means that he, by all rights, ought to be wearing a Merlin hat when he's in shot). She closed off Gunn's access to the Senior Partners [who were likely to have been exactly as in the dark as their liaison left them] and she messed up the phones and computers and gives herself a gold star for simulating a rift in the universe.

    Eve, honey, not even if you were capable of it.

    And, forgive me, but Lindsey neither.

    Just my take on the situation. I ... really don't believe this eppy. It felt hastily flung together and left way more questions than could ever be reasonably resolved.

    It was still "Angel," tho, it had a good beat and I could dance to it, so I've decided to be generous and give it a 9.

    * sigh * I miss Wesley.
  • One of the best episodes as Season 5 progressed, with a standout smackdown between Angel and Spike.

    This episode is a standout amongst the first handful of Season 5. It's one of those lynchpin episodes that comes along roughly halfway through every season of both 'Angel' and 'Buffy', where the audience gets a big hint that what came before in the show is all about to change. This comes in the form of a villain who was last seen near the opening seasons of the series returning, and another continuing character revealing ulterior motives. The best segment of this episode comes in an extended fight sequence between Angel and Spike, something that, in my opinion, 'Buffy' fans have secretly wanted to see for a while. The flashbacks (an 'Angel' staple and always welcome element to the show) also add a great deal to the two vampires backgrounds and motivations. Definately a good episode.
  • This was a very, very good episode. Though I didn't particularly like the ending, not the very end, but the beginning of the end. Well, you'll get what I mean if your read the review.

    This episode was very pivotal episode in the season. Spike became coporeal again and the shanshu prophecy became a mystery.

    There was something I didn't like about this episode. I didn't like how at the end Spike got to drink from the cup. I figured it would happen because they would want to surprise us, as if we would all think, "Well of course Angel will get it." It just further screwed over Angel. Hasn't he had enought punishment. He can't have Buffy because they both agree that their relationship would never work. Then he loses Cordy, the one chick he loved and was willing to go through the hardships that would be their relationship because she loved him. And now he loses a fight to Spike, its just not fair.

    There were two main things that I liked about this episode. Spike became coporeal again and ended up staying in the end. Securely placing him in the main cast and making him useful. The other thing is the end, the return of Lindsay. He came back right at the end, in bed with Eve, talking about how he had set everything up. I was actually surprised, not many things on the show surprise me that were suppose to but this did.

    Great episode, 9.0