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Charisma Carpenter.

  • Avatar of eimajamie

    eimajamie

    [81]Jan 22, 2008
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    I think the show waas better with her in it and I miss her but I guess it was her time to go plus I couldn't really see Cordy working with W&H
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    JoshSutton

    [82]Jan 22, 2008
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    Why do peple keep saying that they couldnt see Cordelia wrking at W&H. I mean could you have seen any of them doing that before season 5?
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    AOT_Doctor

    [83]Jan 22, 2008
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    JoshSutton wrote:
    Why do peple keep saying that they couldnt see Cordelia wrking at W&H. I mean could you have seen any of them doing that before season 5?

    I think i read somewhere that Joss Whedon himself didnt think she would fit in so..yea

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    sef123

    [84]Jan 22, 2008
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    I am glad there is someone else out there who does not like
    Cordelia. I found the changes made to her character in Angel hard to believe - maybe it comes from working in a prison where you see people reform, but their personality stays the same.
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    kooladey

    [85]Jan 22, 2008
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    I'm ignoring the above /\ comment....

    I LOVED CORDY!

    Anyway... moving on... I could see Cordy working in W&H, and maybe if she had stayed on, the show wouldn't have gotten cancelled.......?

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    AOT_Doctor

    [86]Jan 22, 2008
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    kooladey wrote:

    I'm ignoring the above /\ comment....

    I LOVED CORDY!

    Anyway... moving on... I could see Cordy working in W&H, and maybe if she had stayed on, the show wouldn't have gotten cancelled.......?

    when Angel was cancelled it had higher ratings than Buffy..Angel was cancelled because the people who run WB/CW are idiots

    And Cordy's character was annoying..unbelievable. all the negative ings and ables you can think of she was it

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    asutho

    [87]Jan 22, 2008
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    Cordelia's character development was because she had no choice, on Buffy she went poor after tax fraud, so when she went to LA, she was poor as, she was eating cookies she took from parties. So she got a job at Angel Investigations, were she was just trying to live off, but still wanted to be an actress. Doyle died and left her with the visions, but still, she went to auditions after and still was just in it for the money. But one of the biggest factors to her character's change is in the season final. She was in the hospital in so much pain she was out of it. When they stopped the pain, she remarked that she sees everyone's pain, there is so much suffering and she knows that she has to do something about it. And this was just the first season, after everything she has been through, it's not surprising her character has developed
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    Kusonaga

    [89]Jan 23, 2008
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    Wow, that's not from wikipedia, kid. Season 1 of Angel really did change her. I didn't particularly care for Cordy either, but the first season really did develop her significantly. She was a two-bit player on Buffy, but had a starring role on Angel. Now, as to the whole bit about seeing other people's pain changing her: There's a big difference between seeing it, and basically living it. In case you forgot, the W&H bad guy made her basically live every bit of pain she could see with her visions, to the point of convulsions. She was going to die. That's a significantly different experience than what she saw on Buffy.
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  • Avatar of JoshSutton

    JoshSutton

    [90]Jan 23, 2008
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    Kusonaga wrote:
    Wow, that's not from wikipedia, kid. Season 1 of Angel really did change her. I didn't particularly care for Cordy either, but the first season really did develop her significantly. She was a two-bit player on Buffy, but had a starring role on Angel. Now, as to the whole bit about seeing other people's pain changing her: There's a big difference between seeing it, and basically living it. In case you forgot, the W&H bad guy made her basically live every bit of pain she could see with her visions, to the point of convulsions. She was going to die. That's a significantly different experience than what she saw on Buffy.

    Is that the episode with that demon guy Billy? Or something.. cos i've never seen it. Just the follow up. I think Lilah shoots him at the end?

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  • Avatar of asutho

    asutho

    [91]Jan 23, 2008
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    JoshSutton wrote:

    Kusonaga wrote:
    Wow, that's not from wikipedia, kid. Season 1 of Angel really did change her. I didn't particularly care for Cordy either, but the first season really did develop her significantly. She was a two-bit player on Buffy, but had a starring role on Angel. Now, as to the whole bit about seeing other people's pain changing her: There's a big difference between seeing it, and basically living it. In case you forgot, the W&H bad guy made her basically live every bit of pain she could see with her visions, to the point of convulsions. She was going to die. That's a significantly different experience than what she saw on Buffy.

    Is that the episode with that demon guy Billy? Or something.. cos i've never seen it. Just the follow up. I think Lilah shoots him at the end?


    No, it's the 1st season finale. "To Shanshu in LA", the episode you are talking about it season three's "Billy".
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  • Avatar of JoshSutton

    JoshSutton

    [94]Jan 23, 2008
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    asutho wrote:
    JoshSutton wrote:

    Kusonaga wrote:
    Wow, that's not from wikipedia, kid. Season 1 of Angel really did change her. I didn't particularly care for Cordy either, but the first season really did develop her significantly. She was a two-bit player on Buffy, but had a starring role on Angel. Now, as to the whole bit about seeing other people's pain changing her: There's a big difference between seeing it, and basically living it. In case you forgot, the W&H bad guy made her basically live every bit of pain she could see with her visions, to the point of convulsions. She was going to die. That's a significantly different experience than what she saw on Buffy.

    Is that the episode with that demon guy Billy? Or something.. cos i've never seen it. Just the follow up. I think Lilah shoots him at the end?

    No, it's the 1st season finale. "To Shanshu in LA", the episode you are talking about it season three's "Billy".

    Ooooooh. I completely get it now. I'm such a dumbass.

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  • Avatar of NJZ

    NJZ

    [95]Jan 23, 2008
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    AOT_Doctor wrote:
    I'm just saying that the show was much better without Cordelia...hell the show was much better without Fred.


    The only episodes without both Cordy and Fred are the last few of Season 5 when Fred becomes Illyria. Are you seriously saying that those last few episodes are much better than anything the previous seasons have to offer? BTW, I've read all the latest posts and your reasoning for your dislike of Cordelia is unconvincing. I get that you might find a character annoying for whatever reason but to say that her development was unrealistic and then not giving any good reasons for your view is rather irritating.
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  • Avatar of JoshSutton

    JoshSutton

    [99]Jan 23, 2008
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    AOT_Doctor wrote:

    NJZ wrote:
    AOT_Doctor wrote:
    I'm just saying that the show was much better without Cordelia...hell the show was much better without Fred.
    The only episodes without both Cordy and Fred are the last few of Season 5 when Fred becomes Illyria. Are you seriously saying that those last few episodes are much better than anything the previous seasons have to offer? BTW, I've read all the latest posts and your reasoning for your dislike of Cordelia is unconvincing. I get that you might find a character annoying for whatever reason but to say that her development was unrealistic and then not giving any good reasons for your view is rather irritating.

    eh to you.

    Yes the show was much better without Cordelia and Fred. Apparently you didn't read good enough. I gave very good reasons for why her characters's development wasn't realistic. I gave several reasons actually. Whats irritating is you not backing up anything you say. Tell me how her development was realistic Mrs. hypocrite. And i think it's a safe bet to say that people prefer Ilyria over Fred. OMG Gunn I love you...Oh wait Gunn I don't love you anymore because you killed a man i Was just going to kill anyway. And now i love Wes because he agreed with me. Complete and total suck.

    I can kind of see where are are coming from AOT, well about 1% of it with the Fred not agreeing with what Gunn did, he was only protecting her. But with Cordelia, it was natural for her to change in the ways she did. I mean she wasnt going to still be acting like the rich, b*tchy princess when she wasn't treated as so. And like other people have mentioned the visions showed her other people's pain and made her care for them.

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  • Avatar of PilotofSerenity

    PilotofSerenity

    [100]Jan 23, 2008
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    Cordelia's character development was completely realistic over the course of five-and-a-half to six years. (This includes Buffy seasons 1-3 and Angel seasons 1-3. Angel Season 4 does not count due the fact it wasn't Cordy there.) Yes, she started out as a shallow stuck-up princess in Buffy. However, over her time on Buffy, you started to see subtle changes in her. She always felt alone, even when she was popular as we saw in "Out of Sight, Out of Mind". She hid a lot of herself from the rest of the world. She may have appeared stupid, but she was really smart. Fast forward to season two, she started to date Xander, which was several castes below her in the high school caste system because she started to see that there is more to a person than meets the eye. She saw that Xander was brave, rescuing her several times. During this time dating Xander, she started to hang out with the Scooby Gang and help them in several situations. She started to see there was things just beyond her narrow worldview. By the end of Buffy season 3, she was more than willing to stand up and fight against the mayor. She could have ran away like Anya did because it was best for her. No, she didn't, she stayed and fought the mayor because over the course of three years on Buffy, she had grown to become a brave person who was willing to fight for what is right thanks to her time around the Scoobies.

    The next time we see Cordelia is in "City of...", where she appears to be successful in the Hollywood scene, but we know that she isn't a few scenes later. Once again, it's her pride that doesn't allow to show that she is struggling to people she knows, like in "The Prom" where we find out her parents lost everything and she now works at the formal wear store. She still has her sarcastic, somewhat superficial personality, but she now knows things and is able to get out of dicey situations. After Angel and Doyle rescues her. she joins Angel Investigations, one for the money, and two because she really wants to help. "Ru w/ a Vu" shows again her pride, which eventually leads to her downfall, getting in the way. She didn't ask for help when the old lady was tormenting her, but it was her bitca-y personality that saved her in the end. When Doyle passed her the visions, Cordelia wanted to get rid of them because they gave her headaches and the like, but when she realized they were a gift she decided to keep them in "Parting Gifts."

    Fast forward to "To Sanshu in L.A.", Cordelia gets poisoned by Vocah into feeling everyone's pain in the city, which nealy kills her. During this time, she realizes that she has been chosen for this. Her main focus now is the mission, yes she still wants to be an actress, but now, without a shawdow of a doubt, she wants to help. There are a lot of people who are helpless and she needs to help them. During season two of Angel, you see her side-by-side with Wesley, Angel and Gunn helping the weak and abused of L.A. while still having her core personality. At this time, she also becomes Angel conscience. She's the one who tells Angel that what he doing is going to drive him a dark path, because she has always been the one who says what is on everyone's mind. She still makes snarky comments from time-to-time, calling Angel a enuch in "Guise will be Guise". She grows exponentially during the Dark Angel arc as she, Wes and Gunn, grow to be a very good team without Angel. She still stays on mission.

    There were two very important points in her arc that show her growth as a character, the Pylea arc and the episode "Birthday", where she was given a choice of what he has dreamed about her whole life or having the visions, both times she chooses the visions. Before the Pylea arc, Cordelia was starting to grow tired of the visions, which was interfering with her chances of being a successful actress. In the Pylea arc, she became a princess, a lovely princess at that. The only side effect of becoming a princess, is that she would have to give up the visions when she com-shucks with Groo. She wants to help people, and in her mind the only way was to keep the visions and keep Angel on track. So she leaves Pylea with a renewed sense of purpose.

    Then comes season three, where her attachment to her visions, eventually lead to her downfall. Throughout season three, we see her and Angel training together, growing closer. While she still has her high school personality snarky, the ability to speak the truth when no one else will and hidden intelligence, she has grown into a woman who knows her place in the world as a champion's best friend. Now, we arrive at "Birthday," Skip arrives and gives Cordelia a choice she becomes successful actress but at the expense of Angel. He couldn't cope with the visions because he did not have the suppors system there to help him. She isn't truly happy as a successful actress, felt unfullfilled, here she realizes that she needs the visions, and without the visions she is useless. This is her pride once again hurts her. She didn't know she was more than vision-girl, she was a close friend and confidant to Angel, Gunn and Wes. It was her that kept Angel and company sane. She couldn't see that, and it was her pride that said she needed to carry the visions because she was the only one capable of doing it and her insecurities that the visions is what made her special. This is the episode that showed, while Cordelia changed a whole lot, she is now a hero who looks to help people rather than hurt people, she is still the insecure girl who wanted to special. As a result of her decision, she allowed herself to become part demon, which enabled Jasmine to grab a hold of her when Skip sent her to a different plane in "Tomorrow". Cordelia Chase died in "Tomorrow" and was replaced by Jasmine when she appeared in "The House Always Wins." During her short stay in the other plane exisitance she was Cordelia, but Jasmine was talking hold and on her way back took control.

    The next time we see the real Cordelia Chase was in the brilliant "You're Welcome" where we see the one who still had energy, loved life but devoted to getting Angel back on his path of being a Champion. She was in shock when she saw Angel running Wolfram & Hart, she didn't approve of it. That's why she made the deal with the Powers, she would die if they allowed her to help Angel and company one last time. Her arc had finally ended, she started out a spoiled, bitca-y, insecure rich girl, and by the end of "You're Welcome" she was still somewhat bitca-y, but she was a champion in all its meaning.

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