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Arrow S02E20: "Seeing Red"


I am very conflicted about "Seeing Red." 

First there's the whiz-bang-pow of Moria's death—or apparent death, who the hell knows with Arrow at this point (though Moira not staying dead would be really awful and lazy, so really, show, she needs to stay dead). Then there's the fact that it was compounded by both the suddenness of it and her tantalizing mention of yet one more secret about Malcolm Merlyn (odds on it being "He's still alive"?). It's exciting, because it was not only shocking, but it promises to escalate the conflict between Oliver and Slade in a very real way. It will also rattle things even more for Oliver and Thea, on a personal level—Oliver is "responsible" for Moira's death—as well as on a basic survival level. Queen Consolidated is out of their reach. Their income, so far as the show seems concerned, is basically Verdant and their savings accounts.

It's just those flashbacks that keep tugging at me, leaving me slightly frustrated with the whole episode.


Moira's arc this season has been about nothing if not redemption, and then certainly atonement. She was ready to accept—and felt she deserved—the death penalty for her part in Malcolm's machinations. But she decided to fight that legal battle in no small part because of her desire to be a better a parent, at least in her own eyes, since Thea and Oliver didn't begrudged her involvement with Malcolm's plans for the Glades (even if took Thea a while to get there). Her campaign for mayor was framed in similar terms—of being better, of doing better, of making up for damage she had done. Such a narrative allowed her to inch ahead of Blood in the polls, and to view being mayor as another way to prove herself to her children, to prove to that she still had a sense of self-worth.

The flashbacks to Moira dealing with the unnamed mother of Oliver's baby (seriously, she doesn't even get a name?) were there to provide a counterpoint on this. At least, I think that was the point? I'm not entirely convinced that it worked as well as maybe the show wanted it to. We saw Past Moira not making an actual sacrifice, or even having Past Oliver make a sacrifice, in an effort to protect her children and the lives she wants for them. She didn't even float the idea that the pregnancy was Oliver's fault for not using a condom, noting that, "Where there is money, Oliver, there are people looking to take advantage." It's the world that's against the Queens, and all you need is a file about your life and $2 million to solve problems like young women looking for a handout.


We're forced to juxtapose those flashbacks with where Moira's arc has led her: to standing up and volunteering to die to save her children. She was protecting them again, only this time, instead buying off a nameless woman, Moira sacrificed herself. It's a suitable contrast, especially as we got the last bit of Past Oliver saying, "I don't think I could've gotten through something like this without you." Past Oliver didn't actually get through anything then, even if he didn't know that; he only thought he'd gotten lucky, not learning anything with Moira not actually teaching him anything. Present-Day Oliver knows and understands this gesture of protection, this sacrifice.

I think this may be my hang-up with the flashbacks. They feel unnecessary to Moira's arc this season. We already knew that she went to extremes to protect her children, including kidnapping her own son not long after he returned from the dead as a part of going along with Malcolm's plan when everyone else was trying to bail. We already knew that Moira did horrible things in the name of keeping her children safe, so to intimidate and pay off this young woman didn't feel particularly extreme relative to what she's already done. Removing the flashbacks wouldn't change or even better inform Moira's behavior. We already had all we needed. The epiphany was already there for her—and for us—and so her bravery, as Slade called it, felt like the completion of her arc.


There remains the issue of Roy and his mirakuru-fueled rampage through the city. It was more necessary than it was interesting, but I wasn't crazy about reducing Roy to a near-silent, twitchy, hoodied hooligan to be hunted like the Hulk or Frankenstein's monster. But of course he had to be, so that the show could bring about the rift between Oliver and Sara and start another discussion about their differing philosophies and approaches to dealing with adversaries. Namely, Sara's fondness for killing them, and how she thinks killing is a part of her now. I'm not going to expound further on Sara's mental state (I did plenty of that with "Heir to the Demon"), but suffice it to say, this episode was more of Sara running away and thinking she's not worthy of those who care about her. Which is, as I've said the past and as Oliver pointed out in this episode, exactly how Oliver felt in Season 1.

So perhaps Oliver's sense of hope is what's supposed to pull all of this together for us. Moira buying off that woman seven years ago was deeply cynical, but she found a way, in the end, to use her love for her family in a way that actually saved them (at least temporarily) and herself, morally speaking. Sara thinks Oliver needs "someone else who can harness that light," and that she is not that person, that she doesn't deserve to be that person. Even Roy, as he peeked through his mirakuru rage, thought he needed to be put down, that he wasn't worth saving.

To potentially bring everything full circle, Slade has had his light twisted by the mirakuru. Shado should be a source of hope for him, but her memory has become something that weighs him down, the same way Sara's guilt drags her away from others and Roy's passion leads very quickly to anger, made all the worse by the mirakuru. Is there any chance for them to recover? And if they do recover, what's it going to cost?



FROM THE QUIVER

– Was this the first time Diggle and Thea have had an extended conversation of any sort? I feel like it was, but I could be wrong.

– I wouldn't be surprised if Slade's ultimate plan, based on the line "There is still one more person who has to die before this can end," is to drive Oliver to kill him. Some sort of "You have to kill me or someone dies" situation, in an effort to scrape away whatever last bit of hope resides in Oliver's soul. Something only made possible by the no-kill vow that Oliver appeared all ready to abandon in the woods.

– "Can you ever get into those leather pants with that knee?"

– I'm going to miss Susanna Thompson a great deal, despite my ambivalence toward this episode. She could always be relied upon to make just about anything work, including making that final scene a sad farewell for the character. It was a performance that the episode didn't really earn, but it at least helped to find an emotional truth for Moira. This was the case with her more often than not, throughout her entire time on the series.


What did you think of "Seeing Red"?


Previously Aired Episode

AIRED ON 5/25/2016

Season 4 : Episode 23

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I actually cried when Moira died. Not because this show is particularly good but because its themes hit close to home. Even more so maybe because I have such a large amount of love for Susanna Thompson, her acting and the acting choices she's made in her career. What an amazing person. This show is going to miss her. A lot.
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I was wondering what the whole point of the pregnancy scare was, then Slade said "one more has to die". Then I started freaking out that maybe he knew about Oliver's kid. In Slade's mind, introducing Oliver to his child and then taking it from him would be the best revenge.
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Oh boy, I can't wait for Oliver's 6 year old daughter to enter the picture. Surely you don't think the flashbacks were just about Moira?
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It would be the dramatic and cliche thing to do. In season 3 or so, Laurel and Ollie get together until the kid shows up. Laurel goes half-cocked and righteous again even though him cheating on her isn't a new idea. I wonder if that's how they're gonna introduce Artemis though. They're not actually related but it's not like the show has ever gone by the comic book anyway.
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I have to admit that I loooove side-way car crushes (ONLY in tv shows) and it was a big surprise I din't see it coming moira is dead?? there is a little oliver out there??? sarah is gone? (yay)
I can't wait for the next episode.
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I actually stopped watching this episode the first time I tried when Ollie and Sara were pillow talking about finding a place to live. This is virtually end of days for Oliver, all his "free" time should be spent on Slade, not in bed with "the other woman".

But then a coworker told me how the ep ended, and since I've been waiting for Ollie to more resemble the orphaned archer he is in comic I tried again. Most of the ep was painful, the soap operatics have become too big a part of this show. I know this is the CW but when is whiny rich girls complaining about nonsense ever entertaining television? I actually almost missed Laurel, at least her drama is warranted...

I know Ollie is supposed to be a callous playboy in the past, but do we really need to rip down his relationship with Laurel any more than we have. Must he really have been the literal scum of the earth for us to accept him as a hero now? They spent all last season telling us that she was the only light in his life and all this season throwing that all under the bus.

And now a secret baby in central city? I think the writers may have been watching a little too much Telenovela over the break.

The two highlights for me were Moira sacrificing herself for her children. Other than running for mayor, she's been one of the few consistent characters on the show. And Oliver actually acknowledging that Shadow might have meant something to him.

I'm glad Roy is incapacitated, and that Sara is gone (though I'm sure that's temporary). As much as I love Manu, I can't wait for this story arc to conclude.

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I'm starting to get really tired of Thea's constant bitching and the woe me pity party. What is even the point for her to be on the show now, other than this? She's like Aaron from Revolution, only worse.
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I disagree, at least as far as Aaron is concerned. His role is to tackle the big question on the show: the nanotech and whether or not the power will ever come back on. Everyone else (Rachel included) seems to only be involved in the war on a physical sense while Aaron tackles the metaphysical.
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This may very well be the intent of what Aaron is supposed to represent, but he is written as an utterly intolerable whiner and a coward to boot. His "persona" dwarfs everything else and makes him unrelateable--just like Thea is becoming.
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So . . . forgive me if I'm wrong, but did the show basically confirm that the reason for Roy and Slade's craziness is because the Mirakuru causes them to hallucinate about people they care about telling them to do certain things? For example, Roy saw Thea telling him to kill her, and a while ago we saw how Slade sees Shado and does everything she "tells" him to.
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I thought Sara was Slade's target until it was revealed Oliver had a child. Slade has known everything so far, and it's hard to imagine he doesn't know about that, too. Letting Oliver know he's a father and then killing his now seven-year old child would be the torment Slade's after. I don't think this show is that dark, and don't think that'll happen. I'm glad I've avoided spoilers.
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As soon as Moira admitted she knew about the Arrow, I knew she was going to die. I'm more surprised that Merlin didn't show up at the last second to save her, as that's where the next "too different to work together" angle could have come from, with Sara leaving.

Then again, I bet they can still do that -- both men trying to bring down Slade and avenge Moira. Thea can show up in the "Arrow Cave", generate some drama getting to know her real dad, the writers can play the "is he or isn't he reformed/sympathetic/understandable" card with Merlin . . . lots of things they could do.

I'm surprised you didn't mention that there's a Young Arrow out there somewhere now, seven years old and probably living in Central City. That's a plot line waiting to happen.
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I never thought I would've said it but I actually hoped Thea got aerated. Killing Moira, instead of Gossip Girl, has left a parental vortex now and only Paul Blackthorne left to work overtime on scripts for such moments - which isn't a bad thing, I still miss Dresden.
And then there's Caity Lotz and her pumped Canary breast riding off just when they really need her too. Very odd. If she's so blood thirsty keep her around for a certain Kiwi, no?
If Moira knew about Oli', then why'd she give him such a hard time before in which she gave him the you don't get the big picture speech leading to their dust up?
I guess we could have Malcolm Merlin (that scariest of names) back now he's finished his old TV ad compaign - fitting last words in it, for Moira no doubt.

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HA!
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Was wondering when Slade/Deathstroke was going to pop up! RIP Moira and was surprised that she knew about Oliver's secret
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It would make more sense for Slade to kill Sara more than anyone else. She lived instead of Shado and Oliver loves her. That one more person Slade talked about can only be Sara.
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Shado died so Sara could live. If Slade killed Sara, then Shado's death would have truly been for nothing. I don't think Slade would really want that, despite the resentment and hate he must feel for Sara. Plus, it's the obvious one isn't it. I think the last name on the list will be a little more complicated than that.
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Everyone had something to lose in this episode, and some of them actually lost everything.
Moira was losing her family, so she gave her own life to save them. Roy lost his sanity to Mirakuru, so he was more than willing to lose his life. Sarah lost her soul to the League of Assassins, so she's coming to the realization that she might not be so worthy. Thea completely lost her faith in her family, so she is ready to give up everything. But Oliver... Oliver lost more than all the others. He lost his mother, his sister and his... well, whatever Sarah was for him pratically at the same time. With wounds so deep there is only two possible endings for him: either he gets out of this a hero or a martyr. Knowing that his chances of taking on Deathstroke are slim at best.
Moira's sacrifice was the perfect ending for her arc. She knew Oliver was trying to do some good for this city, not ot mention she knew there was nothing she could do for Thea. So the only way for her to make up for all the (Oliver's words) horrible things she's done was to give her own life to save her offspring. One more thing: she might have taken Queen family's connection with the League of Assassins to the grave with her.
Roy ended up as he started, strapped on a table at Oliver's Arrowcave. But we sure haven't seen the last of him, he will be back to become the Red Arrow, maybe next season.
Sarah... Well, Sarah belongs to the League of Assassins, at least she thinks so. Nyssa may have let her go, but I won't be surprised if she gets back to the League. Not that she'll become Wilson's ally or Oliver's opponent, but six years being trained by Ras Al Ghul screwed up her mind. I honestly don't know what to think of her.
Thea may leave the city, which probably is the best fer her now. Not that it's going to save her if she becomes Wilson's next target. Coming to think of it if he was going to kill her he would have done it right then and there. I won't be surprised at all if she bumps on dear daddy along the way and they start to make up for the lost time.
As for Oliver another part of his life went down the toilet, sure as hell Wilson won't stop there. Killing Moira, poetic as it may have been, was nothing but payback for Rochev, as in you take something from me, I take something from you. And he did it in a way that made perfectly clear to Oliver why he's doing what he's doing. Before he left Thea with her pain and Oliver with his impotency he said he has one more person to kill and I think it is this son or daughter he doesn't even know. I mean, for me this whole baby story wasn't there just to show how far Moira was willing to go for her family. This child is very alive! Not to mention that demented as he is now Wilson is more than capable of taking a child's life just to get to Oliver.
Anyway, Oliver lost almost everything he had to lose. He's almost at the bottom, now his journey really starts. Certainly Green Arrow will be forged on fire.
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I agree it was a very big loss episode, especially for Oliver. I don't think Roy was really in any state of mind to experience loss, but none of what he did made sense to me anyway (kill police, not kill the Arrow & Diggle, etc.). The preview seemed to show Oliver taking his loss(es) quite hard, but it also seemed to have a fairly significant spoiler (not only Ravager but what she says).
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so sorry for Moira :((( never expected a character like her to die, at least not like that... don't now why, but the scene reminded me of the Game of Thrones
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Ever since they revealed Shado as the reason for Slade's revenge the character has fallen completely flat for me. He had so much potential too.
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Moira dead! Roy kicked everybody's ass....loved this episode..
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When Slade said "There is still one more person who has to die before this can end," was I the only one who assumed that he's now going to kill Oliver's child?
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I imagined the exact same thing.
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One of the things I have learn about stories in movies/TV series, when they show too much closeness between characters, the more adorable/likeable has to go off soon. The moment Queen told Oli she knows, and then the flashbacks about her I knew something is going to happen.

I didn't think of killing off the big Queen but was ready to see her in her worst. I agree, flashback were not important for that mater. They could show something else instead. Unless they are planning to use that unnamed young Queen sometime in future.

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No place in the quiver for he Royded out? Is the unknown kid now coming in to play, i hope not! I thought for a moment Roy was going to die, but that would have been a waste of story. Overall a good episode although i agree the flashbacks weren't needed in this episode, but i guess they have to. I wonder what team Oliver (aka the quiver) will look like at the end of the season
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"Can you ever get into those leather pants with that knee?"

Ha! I thought she said, "Can you ever get into those leather pants without me?"

I like my way better since I'm jonesing for some Felicity "accidental", double entendres, innuendo...it's been WAY too long.

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I think she said "even".
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I'm conflicted about this episode. The first 37 minutes...meh. The last 7...wow!

Roy smash! {yawn} I couldn't be more prepared for this whole Mirkuru arc to be over. Sadly, I know there's only more coming with the reveal of Isabel being alive and Slade army raising hell. I've always got an issue when a show establishes how unbeatable something is then proceeds to beat it with relative ease which I'm still assuming will be this "Oh, did I forget to mention..." cure that's being worked on.

I think I appreciate what they're trying to do with Sara. I THINK. But I either don't appreciate it as much as I should or just flat out don't like it! I feel like we've done this all before with Helena. Sure, their motivations are slightly different but the results are the same. That I understand more why Helena did what she did than Sara speaks to some lackluster development of this arc, in particular Sara's head space. Yes, Oli went through the exact same thing...except Oli did it mostly on his own with nobody around who could possibly relate to what he had gone through. Sara not only has someone who went through the exact same thing (mostly) she's surrounded by people who were Oli's support system and know what's going on. There's little reason why Sara shouldn't be able to cope better than Oli. Maybe I've misread the entire situation, but since she and Oli reunited (both crime fighting and romantically) Sara's seemed remarkably composed and happy. Bah...I don't like.

Great, so NOW Arrow follows the rule that if you discover the heroes identity you get killed?!?!? BOOOO! Also a "BOOOO"...Oliver not taking the perfect opportunity to show/explain to Slade how he did not "choose" Shado's death. {sigh} I give up on that. A very tense scene that right up until the very end I didn't think they were going to go through with. Damn! That's cold blooded and just when I think things could get really interesting where Moira's concerned.

Her death though does lead to something else that's troubling. Namely how largely the cards are stacked against our team of heroes.

- Roy, even if cured, has got to be looking at some serious jail time for killing a cop, no?
- Sara going to see an old friend? I hope she meant Sin and she's not leaving town...perhaps to "re-join" the League of Assassins. Worst timing ever.
- Oli's got a blown out knee so his physical disadvantage is even greater
- Slade is still 10 steps ahead, 20 times as strong & basically unkillable. By himself I don't think Team Green has much of a chance, but he's also got super Isabel on his team along with an army of Mirkuru soldiers.

Even if Malcolm returns and temporarily aligns with Oli in some misguided way to avenge Moira...it all seems like an insurmountable feat.

Or perhaps not being completely up to date on my comic book lore...I'm talking completely out of my ass
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If Sara doesn't return with friends from the LoA to help defeat Slade, I'm going to be pissed. I just can't believe she'd leave Oliver when she knew Slade was gunning for him.

Sidenote on her character - her situation was likely pretty different from Oliver in that she spent years as a hired killer. Oliver was more fighting to survive, whereas Sara just killed people for years...
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Noel, you frustration with this show is showing :) Actually up until this episode I totally agreed with you. I think I keep repeating this but since the holiday break things have felt off. I am still blaming the Lance sister drama that I couldn't care less about chewing up screen time from characters I actually like, but I digress.

That ending was something else. Very few episodes of anything stay with me, but Moira's death (she wasn't even my favorite character) really shook me a little, so I will applaud the show for that. That scene is what the Sara/Shado scene should have been. Not sure if it was the acting, or the way it was shot, or what??? But if had the intensity that the former did not have.

Now let's hope that these last episodes keep up that intensity.
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Staff
Is it frustration with the show or the episode, do you think? I sang its praises last week, after all. I've never shied away from the fact that, on the whole, I don't like the show as much as plenty of other folks, but I've never thought it was not worth liking, either. It's just a very middle of the road show for me.
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I used to consider it a middle of the road show, as you say. I wasn't crazy about the cast (specially for that one actress, but not only), and the Gotham-style darkness wasn't very attractive to me in the tv format. But I am impressed at the improvements I have seen. The show has adapted to expectations a lot faster and better than other shows. I haven't read the comics, so for me this is a new comic of its own. This could be a major difference compared to other people's views, I think. Soapy factors (like a sudden child) are not my favourite, but I can ignore eventually, if the story flows.

To be honest, I have been more amazed about your interest in Elementary, that always showed a lot larger than mine LOL

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I am actually thinking on stop watching now. So many clichés, so many darkness. I need Ollie to be happier. (I don't mean super happy, just happier than he was, not sadder).
Also, the mom of his baby is called Raisa, right? Moira mentioned her name.
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OMG! That ending was a surprise. Slade has certainly proved that he is a villain that you should be scared of. Great episode!

There has got to be reason why they made the flashbacks about Oliver having a child out there. Slade seems to know everything about Oliver and I bet he knows about the child. Maybe the child will be the one he plans to kill and use it against Oliver.
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kind of speechless !! didnt expect Moira to die at all .
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mmm... Moira's flashback introduced A CHILD OF OLIVER IN EXISTENCE. Not needed, as Noel said, for her own end of story, but they were used as a related subject to introduced THAT SOAPY FACT. Will it be a mini-super-hero in his/her pjs?

And then, is it now when Slade kills Sarah as a final sacrifice and our dear Laurel takes over the leather? Agg. I would hope more for Sarah staying and Slade wanting Oliver to kill him to break his soul as Noel explained, but really... not convinced... :( Maybe Slade will give him an option again between Sarah and Laurel or something, but somehow putting the gun in Oli's hand.

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Well, this is the first episode that I haven't cringed at Caity Lotz's non-existant acting skills. She actually used a few different facial expressions for once. Hope she continues to improve.
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* I think Deathstroke is too important in the DC Universe to be killed.

* Also, it's entirely unrealistic that Blood could win the race. Their ex-step father could be Mayor. Thea could be Mayor.
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I think Sarah is just a placeholder for the Black Canary character in much the same way as Shado and her dad were a placeholder for the Arrow...unless the directors are going to completely change the identities of the characters in the DC universe. The accepted identity of the Black Canary in DC is Dinah Lance, in this case, Dinah "Laurel" Lance. So I'm thinking little sister is going back to League of Assassins, possibly for back-up and probably to return for good, and that Laurel will eventually take up the mantle of Black Canary. Along that line, Roy Harper has always had problems being a sidekick and is always looking to strike out on his own, so no surprise that there will be more of a rift between ollie and him. Presumably, Ollie will try to cure Slade during the season finale, unless the CW feels they HAVE to kill him off, he does make an awesome anti-hero. Moira Queen's death was a VERY long time in coming, wish they hadn't stretched it out so long, but I guess they had to keep her alive to torment Ollie further.
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* Flashback Oliver didn't know what Trigonometry is. This would mean that he probably didn't even take Geometry as he'd otherwise know that trig is simply more stuff about triangles.

* Oliver seems to really think that Thea won't fire Sara. Sara's bringing Oliver around is Sara being insubordinate and disruptive to her boss.

* Oliver is getting increasingly unlikable. Slade Wilson was bad to Thea because Slade told her something Oliver didn't want her to know. Thea's being likely able to be a multi-billionaire even if the Queen family becomes broke is so horrible!

* "Comic book strong": this seems the strongest indication that Superman, Wonder Woman, Supergirl Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern, etc. doesn't exist in this world or at least Sin doesn't know about any of them.

* Um, the race wouldn't be over even if Moira dropped out. There would be plenty of time for someone else to step in and oppose Sebastian Blood. Heck, Moira's former husband could step in and become Mayor. Anyone who supports Moira's platform could step in and Moira could endorse that person.

* Sara seems to want to kill any remotely possibly bad person who has ties to Oliver.

* So, Moira's fine with Oliver's killing a bunch of people and she let him sl)t-shame her for possibly months. And she let him sl)t-shame her even though 7 years before he had cheated on Laurel and thought he impregnated someone. Why wouldn't Moira have brought up this stuff before?

* Past-Moira and very stupid girl: that's NOT how child support works. That $1MM is a pittance compared to what she could have gotten from Oliver.

* Thea's supporting her mother makes sense. It would be nice to have one's mother be mayor. And Thea could still inherit Meryln Global.

* Thea seems to have bought the club with her own money if she's not at all concerned that it may be taken away from her.

* It could be interesting if Thea runs for Mayor.
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Such a shame to see Susanna Thompson go. This feels premature. While the final scene hit all the right notes and the flashbacks did a good job of reinforcing the character, I really could've done without it.

I thought that this episode was strong throughout, but would've worked much better if Roy's rampage wasn't just used as a red herring. He seriously hurt people and even killed a cop, and for a while I really believed that the show dared to take him to a point of no return. This would've been a tragic end, especially if Oliver or Sara were forced to take him out permanently in order to protect themselves or their loved ones. So to have all that momentum and built-up eventually amount to nothing was disappointing to put it mildly. Even more so with Oliver's platitudes about not giving up on him and figuring out a proper solution at the last moment (he obviously couldn't have considered special arrows before trying to tackle a Mirakuru-fueled person in close combat).
All in all, a wasted chance. Roy hasn't exactly become a fan favorite (and I have yet to find a single person praising Colton Haynes for his acting skills on the series), so this would've been a perfect opportunity to write him off in a good manner. But no, instead we had to lose someone who elevated the entire show with their commanding on-screen presence.

I'm not sure who was more annoying this time - Thea with all her continued moping or Sara with her defeatist attitude and the beaten "darkness that I cannot get rid off no matter what" track. It's not like she has put much effort into exploring other ways, merely convinced herself that there were no other paths to take. And then ran away... with Slade at large and wounded Oliver. Makes sense.

I liked the flashbacks, mostly because it showed how well young Oliver was getting along with his mother (as well as how naive and carefree he was), and that Moira's support extended - not surprisingly - towards morally grey areas. Not particularly excited about the whole kid angle, assuming it ever comes into play.
And then I could even forgive the retcon about Moira knowing who The Arrow really is.

The ending would've shocked me a lot more if it wasn't so sudden and completely out of left field. The truck crashing into the car was somewhat over the top. Having Slade replay the island situation was a powerful play, no doubt, and a whole new level in his plan of crushing Oliver's soul. But still... I keep wishing that Roy (or at least Thea) went out instead of Moira.
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They planted the seed for Connor Hawke
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I really doubt that, Oliver's spawn would be about 6 years old so the show would need to run for at least another 8 or 9 years before they could introduce a "proper" Conner Hawke. And as much as I like the show I don't see it lasting as long as Smallville
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Aw, c'mon, who doesn't want Connor Hawke as some sort of poor man's Damian Wayne to Oliver's Bruce Wayne?
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I have a list right here
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My name's on it. A few times.
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I hope my name is on it.

I also just realized that the way to solve this Connor Hawke issue is to do a time skip.
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It's funny, I never got the feeling Oliver actually chose Sara over Shadow to survive. When I first saw the scene, I thought he had chosen nobody.
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Same here. He never got a chance to choose. Ivo pointed his gun at Sarah and Oliver just got in front of it. He would've got in front of anyone who's got a gun pointed at them. That scene was meant to play out quickly to show the unfairness of it all. With Moira though... wow! It was more intense because of course it had to be. And they made a point to tell us that a) Oliver's hands are tied, b) he couldn't just slither over to anybody because his knee is messed up. I really like the build up to that scene. I thought it was perfectly devastating.
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I think Oliver didn't choose. He just protected the first person he thought it was in real danger, and now he couldn't. I really hate this scene, so sad.
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I'm assuming that part of the reason for the flashbacks were to tell us that Oliver has a kid out there somewhere who is going to be brought into the story at some point...

It was obvious by the end that Moira was going to die. She, out of no where, decided to tell Oliver that she knew his "secret", and then, again out of no where, decided to move forward with becoming mayor which wouldn't work with Slade's plan of having Blood be mayor so it seemed obvious that something was going to happen to her.
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i remember a time when we wanted someone with a leading role to die in a seriez...nowdays everyone dies... there is so much death that is rediculous...i trully like this 2nd season of arrow but the fact that everyone knows about oli's secret identity is a total turn off..only thia has no clue what oli did last summer...she kinda reminds me of mat from TVD...stupid and clueless... i thought that a superhero was supposed to keep his identity secret...anywayz..gr8 ep and i guess we are going to see a lil' green arrow?

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Completely agree with the reviewer - I have very mixed feelings about the episode and what worked and what didn't. But credit where it is due, Susanne Thompson bought her A+ game and the writers gave her arc suitable closure, while leaving it open that Moria took a lot of secrets to the grave that can come back and bite her kids in the butt.

As for the rest of the characters, I am having a hard time caring about any of the them. Sara left because she cared too much about Oliver but I was never sold on them as being anything more than masks with benefits, her timing is off and yet another example of the writers pushing characters down to make another a little more sympathetic. Thea, Roy, Felicity, Diggle - great potential there but for me it hasn't been realised nearly enough as the season has gone on. Don't get me started on Oliver. Also convinces me that the writers have no idea how to structure a true team dynamic that moves everyone forward.

Queen jnr. I cringe that the writers thought it would be a could idea to bring a kid into this mess to further Oliver's man pain and scar another Queen for life, nothing good comes of being a Queen. (And that goes for any potential lady loves. I loved the idea of a Felicity/Oliver pairing early in the season but considering his actions have put her in danger, made her unemployed and he has possibly been withholding information from her - like he has with everyone, just no.)

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Conflicted about the episode as well because Roy's rampage made no sense at all. We don't even understand why he is going where he is going (like why did he go to the church? To kill Sara and Oliver? Then why did he just leave when he clearly had the upper-hand?) The all episode was a poor attempt at an hommage to King Kong.
The flashback were starting what I'm guessing is going to be an arc of next season: Oli's paternity but it was a very bad introduction to a storyline that I'm sick of seeing in every tv show. It was completely forced.

But then again the last 5 minutes of the episode were great and completely unexpected. It's just a shame of seing such a bad episode in a season that has been very good so far. I'm sure it was just a mistake and the last two episodes will be as good as we expect them to be.
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Episode 20 was the darkest ep of both season so far. Roy´s violent volcano eruptions killed and harm people in a way we don´t see often in Arrow. Then Slade replicating The Bride with a cold and quick murder took my by surprise. Oliver and Thea had not choice but to see their mother ending her (cynical) days in a cold bloody dead. Not something you wake up next day and forget. Thea may not survive this and more darkness will come for her. I do think the flashbacks were necessary. We get to see already a cynical and manipulative mother who buys people with money. And we get to see a naive and selfish Oliver who thinks he is the luckiest man in the world. How little he knew then that in a near future he will be all the opposite of that. And his family, and money, will be in ruins. Good episode !
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I don't think the episode was trying to portay Moira as a "manipulative cynical mother who buys people with money" I think it was illustrating the fact that a mother always protect her children and that notions such as good & evil doesn't count when your children's life/future is at stake. Moira has never been a good or a bad character, she's always been a mother and this flashback kind of summed up the all character.
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I am sorry but I don´t agree. Moira put the though on her mind already when Oliver told her about the pregnancy. - I´ll buy her my dear son, don´t worry, we have plenty of money - Of course she should have saved some of the money..... I can see behind the soft smile, the pretty face and the well style hair. Moira has her act, look the victim, but she is a wolf in a sheep clothing (more like a big Lion I would say). I am glad she is gone because she really irritated me, and it gives Oliver one more push into the dark (one more) that all "Heroes" need (even Spiderman would not have been who he is without the murder of his uncle). Her death also seas the fate of Thea who I hope will have more to do because Willa Holland (I had to look it up) is one of the best actresses on the show.
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It will be really dark if Oliver's next move was to pomp his mothers body full mirakuru!! To create a brand new DC character called Grey Arrow only to turn on them in the end and renew her self Psyco Mom!
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That kid will be a a big season 3 arc I reckon.
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RIP Moira the cougar
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I think that the flashback story was not only there to highlight the changes Moira had gone through, as we see her how she was before the entire undertaking thing and how she sacrifices herself way after the undertaking. I believe part of the point of that story was to introduce viewers to the fact that Oliver has a child (which should be around 6 years old now). This of course is yet another secret Moira has taken to her grave now - just like the fact that Malcolm Merlyn is alive.

My guess is that this child of Oliver will come into play at some point. Slade is very well informed about everything - which has allowed him to remain one step ahead of Oliver. So it wouldn't surprise me if Slade knows about the kid.
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I think the same thing also. The first thing that popped into my head when Slade said one more has to die was this child.
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No I think he's gonna (try to) Laurel because she's the woman he loves so he feels the way he felt when Shadow died. I don't think we'll have a surprise about this, I'm just not sure if Laurel is going to live or die. The show can continues without her.
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I feel like Slade was talking about Sara actually cause in his mind, Sara was who Oliver chose to save instead of Shado. So having her die would in slade's eye have it all come full circle.
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I thought the same thing when he said that. However this would be incredible hard to pull of for the producers as we only have 3 episodes left in the season and Oliver doesn't even know about this child. The viewers also just learned about it, how could we be expected to care for this child, even if he would be introduced in the very next episode (which is doubtful)?

So right now I think it is more likely that Slade was referring to Sara as it was her that Oliver "chose" over Shado. But I do expect something about the kid to come up, maybe as a last dying attempt to get to Oliver when Slade is defeated, probably in the season finale. This might turn into a subplot in Season 3 when Oliver tries to find his kid.
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It will not really hurt him to kill one child he didn't even know existed before!
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The Arrow is a craptastic show. During WWII the Japanese did give their soldiers drugs like methamphetamine to their soldiers stave off hunger, exhaustion, and to keep the men fighting harder and longer. However, in WWII we found a solution to the Japanese Banzai Charges with methamphetamine laden blood streams-- M2HB 12.7x99mm... So, I mean really this series could be over with a quick call to any local arms dealer and the purchase of a FNH M2HB... Slade, Rory, and the rest of Mirakuru gang show up for the showdown and 600 or so rnds later-- it is MILLER TIME! Because the Arrow just killed everyone in the entire alley and is off giving the high hard one to Blondie!
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geez why did they kill moira she has more potential from a writers perspective because she could have became mayor and had other sub plots with the city they should have killed thea because she does not do anything besides provide the stereotypical rich girl that is indifferent to her privilege and hates her parents she is utterly useless
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Had to kill Moira so that Blood could become mayor and so that the Arrow would have more bad shit to deal with in season 3.
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it seems like they are going to wrap the blood storyline up by the end of the season since he is working with slade
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I doubt it. They built him up and then gave him a back seat at the end of the season in favor of Slade's story. I'm pretty convinced that, now with Blood becoming mayor, he'll be around to cause trouble for next season.

Crixus will probably, finally "die"... only to come back two seasons later.
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@jacobwright984 No, I don't recall that ever happening and I rewatched the first season while this season was on hiatus. Doubt Oliver would've acted so surprised if that were the case or asked how long she knew.
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I was reading an interview with the writer or producer of the show and he said in a previous season that oliver admitted to moira's face that he was the arrow I do not remember this do you?
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So Oliver has a 6-ish Years old child?! Would de see him?
We'll have soon a hell of a fight !
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Wait so the I love you to much so I have to leave you cliche. LOL I knew it was over soon as mrs queen said she knew. Thea is so dumb.
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Yeah, I feel differently. Strongly. This season of Arrow has been one of the best TV seasons I've ever watched. It improves every week just when you think it can't get any better. The characters are dark and gritty, and I love that.

I cannot believe what happened last night and I feel like the flashbacks served such a big and important purpose for character and for a plot down the road.

Best. Show. On. TV.
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Am I right in saying Felicity is the last Blonde standing?

Yes this is the only extended screen time Diggle and Thea had so far.

Suicide by Arrow its possible but why go through all of this for that.
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Honestly, Moira sacrificing herself was obvious the moment Slade captured them. There was no way she would just stand (Ok, kneel) there and let Oliver choose.

Rest of the ep was sort of "meh". Maybe a little more security when you have a mirakuru infuzed, unstable guy in your lair? Like, I don't know, tie him from start?

OK, this will sound like a nitpick but what happens to club now? IIRC it was built as cover for our hero's lair which was built in some building belonging to Queen consolidated. So in principle whoever took over QC would take over club as well.
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They didn't know that Roy Harper would be crazy when he woke up.
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Considering they knew that mirakuru screws you up (as both Slade and Roy have shown) and Oliver says they don't know what so much of it in him combined with blood loss will do tying him would be a logical precaution.
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Is it possible Oliver bought or transferred it into his name?
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Could be. Show in general is sketchy on such details.
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Wow. I have a very different take from almost everyone else commenting on this.

First, I think the flashbacks about Oliver's kid were just to flesh out Moira's character more---her persistence in protecting her children, revealed in the callous pay-off of that unnamed mother. At best, I think the writers might have "the kid shows up" as a random story arc in their back pocket if they need it, but I don't think those flashbacks were about setting it up.

Second, I thought it was fairly obvious that Slade's "one more person" to kill is Sara. She's the only one there with history on the island; she's arguably the person Oliver is closest too (and whose death would hurt him the most); and she is---after all---the girl Oliver chose over Shado (which kind of puts her right in the crosshairs of Slade's twisted motivations).
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Agree on the Sara part, but I think the purpose of the flashback was to introduce that child for the first time. Annoyed by it, I am. But that emphasis on Moira's mother capacities wasn't needed and could have been done in many other ways. Now we have a mother with no name and a child that can come into play when Sara is dead... Sara being killed now would serve the purposes that you mention plus it will open the door to Laurel to become black canary, as planned (grrrr)
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kill off a competent actress and keep caity lotz, brilliant! there's little chance I'll be tuning into next season unless sara is dead by the end of this one.

looking forward to Flash and hope they don't eff it up like they did this show. what a terrible season!
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