An Arrow Community
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Team Arrow has been growing as of the last two episodes alone and this worries me. In the very beginning this show struck me as dark (still does at times) and I loved it! The main reason for it was because there wasn't really any safety net for Oliver. Then Diggle came along which was fine, more than fine it was great and later Felicity. I was completely fine with that! Every superhero needs their Oracle or their Chloe if we go for something closer to home (home = CW).

As of late, Roy has been invited to Team Arrow and he's all superpower-y. I hate it. Absolutely hate it. More of this:


This however:


Before he became all superpower dude, we saw a lot of similarities between him and Oliver. Only difference was experience and skill. We saw a lot of hand-to-hand from Roy that was clever, fast, agile and intended to take down bigger opponents. Take into account his awesome parkour skills and if Oliver would've taught him how to use a bow (not necessary now is it) we might just have seen the Red Arrow we all know and if you know him probably hate but I do love him so that's that. Just don't give him the New 52 trucker hat and I'll love the producers!

I can assume we won't be seeing much of his parkour or any weapons use, for anything other than keeping him calm since they made that obsolete to his Hercules fists.

No more of this *sheds a tear*


Who knows. Me for one am hoping they de-power him or something.

Now onto the Sara problem, or rather Sara good..? Yeah I don't know what I just wrote but in any case, Sara has apparently also joined Team Arrow. Yaaaaay! No. She does have a Bo staff so that eases my pain but do send her off to the Birds of Prey already. She is just one too many in the lair and I personally think she takes away the danger of any encounter. We know that Oliver can't die because he's the main protagonist but when the team is this big then I come to the conclusion that no one can die because the safety net is so very very huge. Safety nets in shows like this takes away the thrill (will never stop watching this show so doesn't matter too much) and I want my shows to stay on top!

What else makes her bad for the team? Well if you haven't noticed, Diggle hasn't been doing anything at all. That was before her but still... I think it's nice that they're bringing in a story for him (presumably the one about Suicide Squad). It's so obvious that Deadshot will be part of Waller's suicide squad but I still can't wait to be introduced to them!!!

Felicity on the other hand will have some interesting moments now that Moira probably blames her for everything wrong in her life and not to mention how it must be seeing Oliver hooking up with the only other female in Team Arrow.

Only included Roy pictures because his development is what's breaking me down.

Feel free to discuss, about anyone in Team Arrow or what you think about the Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey!
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I commented about this a few weeks ago that the show was starting to have too many characters with too many separate problems of their own and not just the ones on team arrow.

The show is starting to become a soap opera. When the show is on the topic of "fighting crime" with the original trio of team Arrow, and the flash back to the Island, the show is great. But when they start breaking off to the problems of the other characters, the show gets chaotic and I go "Man, this is getting to be a too complicated and too busy of a show. What happened to Diggle, is he being thrown under the bus?

I'd say kill off some characters and their problems. Or, maybe they should re-name the show to "As the Arrow Turns"......
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haha I see your concern about there being too much I mean just look at Summer Glau, she's completely gone (they better have an explanation to that)!
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TOO many characters. This is a 45 minute show once a week, and they are stretching themselves thin. It's hard to create deep well rounded characters when you can only dedicate a few minutes each week or a single episode all season. This show has a great following. It's on a channel that is known to support shows well past their expiry date, so what's the rush? Why are they suddenly trying to cram every hero, villain, team, and quirk from the DC universe into one season?

They've got a stable full of characters now that they just trot out to say a couple of lines now and then.

Ollie
Ollie's mom
Ollie's mom's one time lover/supervillain/ baby daddy of Ollie's sister
Ollie's step dad
Ollie's sister
Ollie's sister's boyfriend
Ollie's sister's boyfriend's androgynous friend
Ollie's ex
Ollie's ex's dad
Ollie's ex's dad's ex-wife
Ollie's ex's sister, who he cheated with, but surprise has real feelings for, despite everything they've show us in season 1 and double surprise is a bad ass assassin.
Ollie's ex's old boss
Ollie's driver/sometimes side kick/sometimes cheerer upper
Ollie's girl friday/unrequited love interest*
Ollie's pal/business associate/ secret enemy with an ironic last name
Ollie's one time girlfriend now vigilante justice hander outer
Ollie's business partner/occasional lay/woman who is clearly not who she says she is

That's a lot of character's and I haven't even really touched on the recurring villains.


*clearly the best character on the show

For every new character they bring in other plot lines get forgotten and mishandled. Look at Laurel for example. She was a competent lawyer who's boyfriend died and then seemingly came back from the dead. She had a complicated relationship triangle with him/his best friend/his alter identity.

That in itself is a goldmine for interesting character arc and depth. So what do they do with it? They shit-can it and decide to "explore" guilt, self loathing and substance abuse through a horrid one dimensional (extremely painful to watch) story arc instead.

They made us hate a sympathetic character, and retconned a fairly insignificant one (Sarah) into some heroic bad ass? WTF?

At this point it feels like the producers of Arrow are basically daring Katie to quit. They've completely torched her character, and I have no idea how they are going to fix it.

What is the point of Sarah anyway? Why introduce Black Canary into the story so early? If the plan was to have Laurel bottom out and then come back from that and eventually turn into Black Canary, why not have this happen without Sarah at all?

I personally would have liked to see Laurel develop into Black Canary over time (seasons). Watching her slow development paralleled with Ollie's trial by fire would have been interesting. They could have kept the league of assassins angle by having the people in her life helping her deal with her addiction (trainer, psychologist, new love interest, new best friend) all be people placed by the league attempting to groom her, that could have been some real nice long game (like season 6) kinda twist.

As for the villains. Too many too fast. One big bad is enough. Why not keep the story with Slade, why bring in Rah's at all?
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I think in retrospect, Arrow has been great at juggling several story arcs. I just don't see the point of such a massive increase in story, characters and such this early when they don't seem to be able to handle it. Summer Glau is completely gone for one and not to mention that Laurel's pretty much ruined. What ever happened to Sebastian Blood? If they don't introduce Cyrus Gold's change into Solomon Grundy anytime soon people will have forgotten him. I can go on and on about this. I think with how much DCU has to offer, Slade can and probably will be toped and I am fairly certain Ra's has been brought in (slowly) to do just that.

Sara serves absolutely no purpose. She cannot be developed and she's already established herself with her family. Sure, in the flashbacks she's useful and she was to introduce The League but what now? People (commenting here protecting her) seem to forget this is a show about Oliver and claim he needs help. No, he doesn't! The developers don't kill the protagonist unless it serves a purpose and they always figure out a way for the hero to manage. He has Roy, Diggle and Felicity already, on to of that he has Det. Lance too!

I've vented now.
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Am I the only one who doesn't think Laurel's ruined? She's going through some pretty bad stuff right now, but she'll be able to recover. Besides, I think it's realistic (not acceptable, though) that she goes through alcohol and substance abuse after the shit she's been through what with Tommy dying, getting kidnapped and almost killed, having family issues and a stressful job.

I don't know, maybe I'm silly or soap-y but I think the drama makes the show better, and that's where Sara's participation becomes essential: she being back brought a lot of drama to the show, specially after episode 14. I found that Lancel family dinner party extremely entertaining, including Laurel's tantrum, leading up to Oliver's speech. I also think Sara is how Laurel will redeem herself. Sara will probably end up dying sooner or later, and I appreciate that the show is trying to humanize the character in order to make us feel when she departs. Sara's death will probably trigger inside Laurel the desire to fight, from which she'll evolve to become Black Canary.

I don't know, I like the big web of characters. They have those small plots developing in tandem with the big plot and I love how much drama and silly family feuds this brings in. They should keep on doing it! As long, of course, the action remains top notch and the principal story, and that is Oliver's stays on focus.
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I have to admit, I LOATHE Sara. It's not the actor, I think she's actually pretty badass, and I don't have anything against Black Canary (though I wish her character was a little more endgame - like Lois on Smallville)

But I can't stand that they turned a character that was meant to symbolize Oliver's immaturity and fear of real commitment and supposed to be a huge obstacle to the Oliver/Laurel relationship into a main character on the show. That they've decided that there are "feelings" between them now annoys me to no end.

Plus, I may be alone here, but I think the idea of Oliver going from carefree playboy into focused, heroic vigilante is a great one. That he did it on this island when the rest of the world thought he was dead made it that much more engaging. Over the last two seasons as they've populated this island with more and more characters and story lines, and connected more and more of these story lines to Starling City, it's kinda diluted it's greatness.

More mystery was better. Oliver, Slade, Shadow alone on the island battling who knows what and turning Oliver into the man who left the island is reminiscent of The Counte of Monte Crisco, and I liked it. But the more they show us what happened, it's like the mystery is disappearing and I'm becoming less and less impressed.

When we found out that Sara was on the island and had been turned into a great fighter/survivor in her own right, that was the last straw for me.

Instead of Oliver being a man that was thrown into a horrible situation and was able to reach inside himself and find his self worth and heroic nature and use that to survive and persevere, it basically boiled down to anyone stuck in a bad situation can learn to become one of the best fighters of all time. It wasn't about Oliver, it suddenly seemed it was about the island.

Unlike Superman who was born different, or Batman who was horribly scarred as a child. Oliver did what he had to do on the island, but when he came home he could have made the choice to return to his carefree life. I always believed that he didn't because he had connected with a part of himself that he was trying to deny for years. That deep down inside he was heroic and more complex than he imagined, and that being on the island finally allowed him to see it. All the partying, drinking, spending and acting foolish was a way for him to ignore the problems in his family, the problems he could sometimes see in his city but either wasn't inclined or felt powerless to do anything about. Becoming Arrow gave him a reason and a way to get involved, the list from his father gave him a target to attack.

But by having Sara turn up on that island, and survive her own ordeal, by her finding her own inner strength and heroic ideals, that somehow weakens what Ollie went through. It's no longer unique or "special".

That's why I hate the character, and can't wait until she's gone.

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Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Expansion of team arrow is for introduction of more dangerous villains like slade or may be Ra's Al Ghul . it would be totally unbelievable if oliver beats a superhuman like slade without any help. it makes the show more believable. Oliver is good but not that good. he couldn't defeat cyrus gold without breaking every bone inside his body , let alone slade. and u cant kill slade by a lucky electrocution like they did with cyrus . So i think this expansion is necessary.

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GA takes on superpowered beings all the time in the comics... So does Batman, and he's no more superpowered than GA is.
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I think you're underestimating Oliver since apparently he put a arrow in Slade's eye whilst on the island, he's gotten better since he was there. I've also mentioned that they're there because of the dangers to come in the comments.
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Yea you r right , oliver did put an arrow in slades eye while on island , but thing is we have never seen him fight something this powerful. we still have to see how he put an arrow through his eye . oliver we know has not fought badasses with super powers so it will take time for audience to get used to that , and for that duration , i think supporting cast is there to help him a little and sorry i dint read ur comments before.
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Well he did go toe to toe with Cyrus Gold so we're after all entering the superpower area. You should read the latest comments on the post concerning Sara, they define my problems very well.
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But we do know that Blood is working with Slade and creating a 'Blood brother' army. I can see Oliver taking down Slade, maybe. But we saw what one Blood brother can do. Even 20 or 30 of them would be overwhelming.

That said, c'mon, I can think of half a hundred ways to neutralize the problem. He's got all that R&D from QC; come up with some kind of an anti-Mirakuru serum. Heck, even better, since Mirakuru seems to work by affecting brain chemistry, get Felicity to program some nanobots to restore the body's regular biochemistry and have him shoot them with nanobot payloads or something.

Okay, granted, that was top of my head and two seconds of thought, but STILL....
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Roy and Sara Lance makes Team Arrow more believable. These people are protecting an entire city and the more the merrier. Roy having superpowers makes him have an interesting dynamic with Oliver while before Roy was clearly subservient to Oliver and clearly 'lesser'.

And, come on, there aren't that many members of Team Arrow.

Remember the Scooby Gang of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That had more members. Willow became a lot more powerful than Buffy.

It's Arrow's job to make the team interesting and to make all the characters important.

The bigger problem with Arrow is not the makeup of the members in the Arrow Cave. It's that Katie Cassidy -- the second lead and female lead of the series -- is mostly there to apparently support Sara Lance's story. Thea Queen is simply there to cause angst between Oliver and Moira and is there to give jobs to the non-rich members of the cast. Moira is running for Mayor but currently is mostly there to cause angst for Oliver and to show that apparently Oliver supports Felicity's sl)t-shaming of his mother rather than his mother and sister.
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Exactly BeeMikeB agree with you.


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You know I'm glad you brought up Buffy in all this. There is something that made Buffy special with it's supporting cast; I have probably never seen a better support cast in my life!
Do you know what Felicity does outside of the Lair and the office? Do we know anything about Diggle's past other than he served, and his brother died? What I'm trying to say is that in Buffy, there was a whole episode about Xander's new apartment or a whole episode about Buffy trying to get a job. It was just so focused on every character and giving every character a different role. Xander being the comedic relief and sometimes the man with the right words, Giles being the mentor and wise guy (yet with a mysterious and haunting past), Willow being the best friend and witch, ect.

I'm sure that in due time, Arrow will establish its supporting cast but to do so properly it cannot have several characters doing the same thing! Two are okay. Buffy/Spike, Buffy/Faith and Buffy/Angel. That makes it interesting but right now we have 4 people in the cave that all do the same thing and that is precisely why everyone loves Felicity (aside from her obvious charms) because she's the different one.
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I don't like Felicity. She does things like complain about being Oliver Queen's Executive Assistant even though that was actually a promotion and likely a pay raise. She sl)t-shamed Moira Queen and it seems did it to simply feel superior to Moria. And then Oliver takes Felicity's side over his mother's. She pines for Oliver and is openly jealous of his being with anyone else. But then she's openly with Barry Allen and even left town to be with Barry and therefore neglected her Arrow duties. And now she was jealous of Sara Lance simply because Sarah is a better fighter than she is. And she wanted to be the only female member of Team Arrow.

I assume people like Felicity because she's a 'nerd' and they like the idea of 'the nerd' getting with Oliver Queen.
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Supporting my points on deaf ears is a fool's errand, that's the sole reason for it being a waste of my time.
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Just by saying that Felicity would smile or smirk, you made all your points invalid. She is the "good girl"; if anyone she'd freak out with apologies. Don't forget you're the one that brought up how Felicity was too busy relaying her problems onto Diggle in turn neglecting how he might feel and then you say it doesn't matter that he isn't expressing himself? Never mind don't clear that up with me.

At this point you're simply waisting my time and I really don't feel like sharing my opinions any longer since after all it's proven to go nowhere.
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* Felicity is someone who was bragging about saving Sara's life, when in reality she endangered it in the first place.

* I said that Felicity should know what Diggle is feeling in regard to his relative importance to Team Arrow.

* If this discussion were actually "wasting your time", you could have simply not responded to my last post. When someone does this, it's simply about trying to "get in the last word" without wanting to continue to support your points.
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FYI, you're not up on corporate structure. Being an EA is NOT a promotion over being in IT. It's actually a demotion. I've been an EA for an American Airlines exec. I got the job because a) I started work in radio and they liked my voice and how I handled difficult people and b) I can type 150+ wpm. (Also a legacy of radio.) The rest of the job was just plain basic management skills and learning to grit my teeth when we had overly ogling clients.

I've also worked in IT for a large law firm. THAT took skills, and you certainly get more respect. I've also been a paralegal, and that was about equivalent. However, both required training and knowledge of a particular skillset people really needed.

I will say I didn't have the issues with Felicity's changed wardrobe that most did. You can't get away with the same attire in a front office job for an international corporation that you can get away with if you're back in the IT department. Both the law firm I worked for and AA dealt with an international clientele, and the dress code was very strict. Suits and dresses only, and never mind that it was 100+ degrees out. You could do slacks, but they had to be well-cut, and you couldn't do open-toe sandals without panty hose.

The only dress she had I had some issue with was the one with the Power Girl cutout, but hey, I probably would have worn it just because it *was* pretty. I just probably wouldn't have worn it to the office, though it wasn't inappropriate for office wear.
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Felicity is the Executive Assistant for the CEO of Queen Consolidated, who happens to be Oliver Queen -- apparently, the wealthiest and most powerful person in Starling City.

Felicity likely got a pay raise and now more people in the company know about her. Isabel prior probably wouldn't even know who Felicity is given IT people are kinda interchangable.
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Don't sit there and tell me I need to re-watch something. When two people have completely different views on a character they see different things in everything they watch. That means no matter how hard I hammer down my opinions and counters, you'll never pick e'm up.

Last one, with the screen time Diggle's been getting lately (not a lot) he doesn't seem dissatisfied and hasn't given Felicity a reason to even wonder.
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No, you clearly misremembered that episode. Felicity openly complained to Oliver regarding his making her his Executive Assistant. She essentially told him it was a huge demotion.

__________________

It doesn't matter that Diggle isn't openly complaining about his lessened importance in Team Arrow. He's a 'greater good' and 'bigger picture' person than Felicity is.

Diggle's actually sorry when he strikes Sara. Felicity probably would have smirked or smiled.
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1. Ever thought Felicity didn't want the promotion because she didn't feel like she deserved it? That she only got it because she was part of his late night activities..

2. What had she possibly to gain from sh*t-shaming Moira? They didn't have any quarrel prior to that and I'm well confident she didn't because she knew secrets don't stay secret and if he found out any other way she'd be done.

3. Laurel was definitely not 100% about anything she said! With the things Sara had to go through, Laurel simple expects her to call? She doesn't know what happened to Sara and what circumstances might have prevented her from feeling like reaching out yet she simple presumes nothing else could be more important.

4. Sure she might be jealous of their current relationship but she certainly isn't showing it, not as of late. If anything Oliver's made it quite clear she's friendzoned.

5. I'm sure that she openly flaunted about it because she hadn't had anyone in a while or maybe even ever. She seemed to be new to the whole "we have a thing" thing. Not to mention that girls do enjoy putting their guy in the spot-light and vice versa.

6. Seemed like Felicity was jealous because she felt somewhat incompetent. Prior to going after the Clock King like she did (physically) she failed over and over again whilst Sara (using brawn) got results and later she also outdid Felicity with the one thing Felicity is good at: lab work. I'd feel pretty useless too if someone outdoes me in something I wish I could do (the action parts) and also in the lab.
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@Lionors

* Felicity wants to be with Oliver. That is canon. Felicity knows Sara is with Oliver. That is canon. Felicity being jealous of Sara is canon.

* It seems you don't know the definition of "sl)t shaming". Your argument makes zero sense. She knows Moira knows whom Thea's father is. Felicity didn't go to Thea. Felicity's concern wasn't Thea. Felicity's concern wasn't Oliver. Felicity simply decided to sl)t shame Moira. The ONLY thing wrong about not telling Thea who her father is is that Thea is probably the sole heir to Meryln Global and all the other Merlyn assets.

* Felicity is self-absorbed. And I detailed that regarding more than this episode.

* It seems you haven't read my other posts and somehow decided to put 'words in my mouth'.

I said Oliver was gross in the Hallway Confrontation. I took it as a given that Oliver shouldn't have been to the dinner.
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Mike, where the heck do you get that Felicity being jealous of Sara is 'canon'? Diggle asks her specifically about that and she says, 'It's not about them, it's about me." Computers are her expertise and where she lives. This guy just pwned her.

We get it, you like Sara, but don't retcon the whole episode to misrepresent what happened.

Felicity did not slutshame Moira. What she did do was find out something she thought Oliver and Thea should know -- and I might add, she found out because she was doing something *Walter* had left her instructions to do. I fail to see where saying, Hey, I found out, and I thought I would tell you so that you could tell your kids. After all, if she found out, so could others. How about giving her some credit for honesty and guts? Moira's not exactly an easy dragon to tackle.

Felicity's self-absorption? Excuse me, did we watch the same episode? Diggle asked her a question. One. She doesn't tell Diggle anything, she doesn't complain to Diggle, she sits there and fixes the computers. That's it.

Maybe you should watch the ep I watched, in which I saw Oliver be an ass, Sara be an insensitive moron who thought inviting her sister's ex-boyfriend to a family dinner was a good idea (really?? REALLY??) and where yet more time was wasted on the Lance family soap opera. Ugh.
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1. Felicity considered her being Oliver's Executive Assistant a major demotion. You seem to need to re-watch that episode.

2. Felicity could act superior to Moira. The point is that Felicity didn't confront Moira for Moira's, Oliver's, and especially not for Thea's sake.

3. Laurel doesn't know what Sara Lance has gone through. Sara hasn't been forthcoming. What Laurel said is true. Sara was having sex with Oliver. Sara being on the Queen's Gambit resulted in their parents' divorce. Etc. etc.

4. Felicity in this very episode was jealous of Sara partly because Sara's with Oliver and Sara is more compatible with Oliver.

5. The problem here is hypocrisy. Outside of that, there's nothing wrong with what Felicity did.

6. Again, Felicity's job is with the computers. She didn't want to start being a fighter until she saw the Oliver/Sara dynamic.

Also -- and more important as it relates to Felicity's self-absorption -- she was relaying this stuff to Diggle. She's completely oblivious to how Diggle might be feeling now that Oliver has Black Canary and Roy Harper.
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You really seem to have misunderstood everything about Felicity!
1. She complained because she wants to do what she loves (work with computers) instead of bringing Oliver coffee.
2. She brought it up with Moira without really thinking twice and to make sure Moira does the right thing and doesn't continue lying to Oliver.
3. Oliver took Felicity's side because she was honest with him, something Moira hasn't been since the very first episode of season 1
4. She's accepted Oliver's disinterest and is willing to put that aside to do her job which most people wouldn't be able to do.
5. She left town because he went into a coma and they where dating?
6. She's jealous of Sara being more useful then her to the team and that they won't need her help anymore, that's reasonable..

People like Felicity because she knows who she is and isn't afraid to stand up for it but yes the quirkiness does play its part.
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By the way, Halo, I'm totally with you on all the rest and you make some great points. :) Just had to put the other view up on that, because I don't think a lot of people (including the writers) actually get corporate structure, ironically enough.
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Sorry, Halo, I'm with you on most of it, but going from IT to a glorified secretarial job really is a demotion, especially if you've got the education she has. And I do speak from personal experience. I took my EA job when I did because the pay was good and I wanted to go back to school for my master's degree (which I did.) I was grossly overqualified. I worked hard (and I did get coffee, btw, though I knew that was part of the job when I signed up for it, so I did it graciously) but I could have held that job with a high school diploma and done just fine.

I think the big issue is that he didn't ASK her, and then he dumped her in a job where her duty was...wait for it...making reservations at a restaurant. Really?

And, the perception that she got the job by sleeping with him is truly humiliating, especially since she *isn't*. Trust me, when you're an attractive woman, you have to work twice as hard to prove that you earned whatever you got and that nobody gave it to you because of your looks or because you slept with someone. That would be doubly true for someone like Felicity working in a male-dominated field. Besides, geek males can be some of the most misogynistic little twerps you'd ever want to meet. (Not saying all of them by any stretch, but there are some men who get really, really threatened seeing a woman tear a computer apart or show mad programming skilz. I don't know why.)

However, I wouldn't expect most people to know that unless they'd had to deal with it first-hand. Sexual harassment is alive and well, I'm sorry to say, and I'm not one who is overly sensitive to that kind of thing. :(
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1. Felicity was still working with computers. She objected because she felt it was degrading for her to be Oliver's Executive Assistant. Isabel points out to Oliver that Felicity essentially got a huge promotion and that Felicity is hugely unqualified to be his Executive Assistant and openly implies that Oliver is probably having sex with Felicity and that's the only reason Felicity got the job.

2. Felicity sl)t-shamed Moira and acts superior and condescending while doing it. Felicity wasn't doing it for Oliver's sake and certainly not for Thea's sake. And she managed to get Oliver to be against his own mother.

3. Oliver took Felicity's side because the show likes Felicity. It's pretty much exactly why Laurel Lance begged forgiveness from Sara Lance for YELLING at her even though Laurel was 100% in everything she said against Sara.

4. Felicity wants to be with Oliver, is still pining for Oliver, and was jealous of Sara Lance partly because Sara was with Oliver. All of that is canon.

5. My point is that she was openly flaunting that she was with Barry Allen and yet always sulks and complains when Oliver is with anyone else.

6. There was zero reason for Felicity to be jealous of Sara Lance other than Felicity's own ego and sense of self-importance. Sara wasn't the computer whiz. Felicity was simply jealous because Sara can fight and Sara is more compatible with Oliver.
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*useful than
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Is Roy even apart of the team? Oliver quit training him two episodes ago.
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He's seen in the "Lair" next episodes according to screen-shots and he knows who Oliver is not to mention everyone else, so yeah.
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I thought what they did for Roy was the only way to introduce him onto the team. Besides the fact that in the comic he is the Green Arrow's sidekick, I think having someone who isn't completely capable adds to the show, not take away from it. Plus, something I truly appreciate about the show is their lack of "training montages", and because Roy is so much less experienced than Oliver or Sarah, in order to join the team and be a useful cog in the Arrow machine he had to become a lot better fast. Plus if they're going to have other super-powered villains like Solomon Grundy, which they've already alluded to, then I don't think super-powered Roy is such a bad addition.
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Agree super powered Roy shouldnt go anywhere, the days of no superpowers rule in Arrow were over in season 1 in my opinion. Arrow and The Flash are going to have crossovers, so there is no going back. There will be super powered villains so it makes sense to at least have one person on the team with a superpower skillset. Its also helps to distinguish between Roy and the other fighters on the team. Oliver used a bow, Sara a staff, Diggle a gun and Roy has something different.
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Crossovers? So far they've only mentioned a possible return during a later episode and that he will be mentioned during the course of the show; it's not unlikely but that doesn't mean they WILL have crossovers.

Roy has a one punch knockout. If the team should consist of different techniques for taking down enemies why not just bring in all of DC's roster?

The good thing about keeping super powered characters in the show is that it will also further Oliver's arrow diversity which is something I know us comic book fans have been waiting for!
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I'm in two minds about Roy's superpowers. While I do like the more realistic tone of no powers, his 'power' really is two-edged. It doesn't do him much good to have that kind of power if he can't control it (and clearly, he's not doing that yet.)

It'll be interesting. :)
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I agree only having a super-powered Roy will make for fight scenes like the one shown in the garage where it's over in one punch and that isn't quite so entertaining. I can see how it will be different when going up against Deathstroke perhaps but Solomon Grundy... That fight would be futile, he's immortal after all!
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Well Solomon Grundy is normally a Batman villain so, how futile is that!?
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Normally associated with Batman but he was first and foremost Alan Scott's (Green Lantern) nemesis! Not to mention, he popped up a couple of times in early Green Arrow comics as well (more specifically post-crisis comics).
He might live in Gotham, but because Arkham City says he's a Batman villain, doesn't make him one.
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It's DC, so the Suicide Squad is kind of everywhere and Solomon Grundy does appear in several Batman and even Superman comics, but regardless, that's two non super-powered heroes who deal with Solomon Grundy. Now that "Arrow" has made his origin story of being sprayed with Mirakuru, who better to fight him than Miracled up Roy?
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As long as Diggle and Felicity stay, I am fine with whatever.
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I do hope they get rid of his powers too. Anyone think we may ever see Dick grayson on the show but never suit up?
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Think a lot of people agree on that! I sure hope not because I want him to have his own show ;) in that case backdoor pilot!
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Nightwing is supposed to show up later in the season!
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Roy & Sara (as Black Canary) are big and important supporting characters of the Green Arrow story, they arent going anywhere. I don't get this worry over the team getting crowded, what do people expect to happen over the seasons. For Oliver/Diggle/Felicity to continue to fight crime alone while the rest go and eat burgers at the Belly Burger? No Roy, Sara and possibly one or two other people have to evolve in their journey as crimefighters and join the big fight.

There is no birds of prey show, no need for it when we are going to have a Birds of Prey arc in this show anyway, that would be redundant. An Arrow spin off has already been decided and its The Flash.


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It's over crowded because we are only season 2. Unless this show plans to wrap up in Season 4 (and since this is the CW I doubt it ), where do we go from here. They've already started hinting at one of the biggest's bad's in the (semi-realistic) DC universe, what could they do to top him?

I want the show to deal with Arrow/Ollie's struggles and triumphs as hero/vigilante/billionaire business man. Not so interested in Roy and his "issues" and I've got my own issues with the Black Canary story line.

They need to slow it down the shows called Arrow, not Arrow and the super friends.

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Yeah, over the seasons! They pretty much established two characters in the team over the course of two episodes..
I'm pretty sure something's going to happen to Sara because there is no more developments to be made to her character other than fill us in on Ra's Al Ghul and Nyssa.

Never said anything about a Birds of Prey show, and yeah I've seen the Flash suit (at least the pic of the head they released). I do keep up and am very engaged in all this, maybe you should read the comments first because you came off very ignorantly (no offense).
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Sara first joined the team in episode 5, while Roy later joined in episode 12, so it wasnt in a matter of two episodes. In contrast to season 1 Diggle was recruited in episode 3 and Felicity in episode 14 not that much difference.

I have read all the comments, Im just giving a difference opinion on this matter.
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agree to disagree, arguing is completely nonessential when two people are at different minds on a unsettled event. I'm quite sure Sara's time is limited, and I'm thankful for it.
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I actually like Sarah, strike that I love her. I think she is a great addition to team Arrow and I think she makes a better ally than Diggle. It is not that I don't like Diggle it is just that Sarah is better at this whole vigilante stuff than he is, and her training and experience are going to be of much more use in the fight against Slade than Diggle could ever be. I also think that Oliver really needs Sarah, they have so much history and she can understand him better than anyone. I don't want either of them to die and I do think that there is room for both of them in the cave. Roy on the other hand is extremely annoying and I would be completely OK with him dieing
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I think I dislike Sara for the same reasons but through different perspectives. I like Diggle better because you never know how his inexperience in the "vigilante" business will affect a operation and I dislike Sara because you pretty much know she can take care of herself even against the baddest of the bad. I think Roy is interesting because he has potential and Sara, she can't really be developed further, Roy on the other hand has miles to go (taking away the power should be the first part). Those are just my thoughts on this whole thing with Sara!
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The thing with Diggle is that he's special ops. He's trained as a team player. Sara was an assassin. Sure, individually, she may have better skills in some areas...but if solo players were more effective than teams, we'd be training only special ops solo soldiers, not teams.

Actually, I was kind of surprised by how effective she *wasn't* against Tockman. He's standing there with a gun and she's just standing there looking at him instead of hucking her bo staff at him like she did before? There's all sorts of things I would have expected her to do that she didn't.

I'm just meh on Sara. The big thing is, she's too similar to Oliver in personality and background for her to really add any interesting elements. Even Roy is at least a different perspective. I also suspect that the PTB wants us to like Sara so we'll be okay with a Canary (thus pacifying those who are wanting the canon relationship intact) and then they'll find some way to shunt Felicity to the sidelines. And that, I wouldn't like simply because I prefer the character Oliver is with her and with Digg. Around Sara, he's right back to being a humorless b*stard, as a favorite author of mine said. With Digg and Felicity, you get more of a sense of a damaged man trying to reach for something greater. That's worth watching.
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I find Roy to be very annoying. I don't know why but I never really liked his character. He is just a smartass who is way out of his league. I completely disagree abut Sarah I think she can develop a lot and that there are a lot of stories in that character, and I find the fact that she can take care of herself to be a god thing. She is independent and doesn't need anyone to protect her, and that is a good thing because that way she can truly be a partner to Oliver some one he can relay on, and not just a sidekick he needs to constantly look after.
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Yeah, right as of now so do I. Roy is tedious and just a plain annoyance but it's the prospect of his development that keeps my hopes up. He is Oliver's protégé and student, I can really imagine them as the bickering dynamic duo and I can see him bringing out the more heroic side in Ollie, in the future ofc! Not too soon because that would simply be out of style.

Sara's independence and strength fits for the moment, I mean sure it's good and all but only if Team Arrow is up against a major threat (like Deathstroke). Otherwise her talent is wasted running after thugs that Ollie's been able to deal with for a year when she can do that in her own city. I don't think someone as great and valuable as Sara should spend her time in a city that's already being protected by an equal.
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Starling City is home though, for Sara. Superheroes usually stay and protect the city they were born or a resident in. She has a family, friends and a job in this city.

Oliver is also human, no powers, there is a limit to how much he can protect the city. He is not in the league of The Flash or Superman. Oliver/Arrow needs more help In my opinion.
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I completely agree with you, but I am afraid that Sara's days are numbered. The season finale will probably be Slade making Ollie choose between Sara and Laurel. Even though Ollie just told Laurel that he has loved her half of his Life, he will choose her not because of that, but because Sara would never forgive him if he didn't choose Laurel. This catalyst will put Laurel into postition of becoming Black Canary. The Laurel hate isn't as prominent as it used to be and the writers are working hard to make her a more sympathetic character.
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oh come on even Ollie needs help sometimes, and besides even if Sarah leaves Starling I doubt it will be willingly which is what scares me. If she dies and Laurel becomes Canary I will be truly disappointed. Much like everyone else I can't stand Laurel and her lack of any combat skills makes the idea of her being a superhero utterly ridiculous, wouldn't it be better if Sarah just simply stuck around. And even outside team Arrow Sarah is an interesting character, her relationships with Oliver and Sin and everything she has been trough make make her very likable and really don't want to see her die. Although I fear she might
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Actually its Diggle who doesnt have much elsewhere to go in my opinion. New characters are always getting blamed for taking screentime from Diggle, yet has anyone stopped to wonder that maybe him being sidelined has a lot to do with that there isn't much to do with him while there is a lot of story left for other characters. Diggle is a morally straight guy, he has already completed his heroic journey, (he is a retired soldier), he also doesnt have time for romantic drama like the young ones and Oliver doesnt need him as much for moral guidance since he is becoming more of a hero and a team leader this season. Like Moira and Quentin, Diggle might just work better as a recurring character instead of being shoe horned in every episode just for the sake of it. Just being important in name and presence only is not enough. I like that they are giving Diggle an upcoming Suicide squad arc, this gives him more to do.

Sara has potential for growth as a character, she has a very bad past with the League of Assasins and Ivo, and has upcoming arcs with Birds of Prey and Sin. Similar for Roy, we still dont know much about his past with his family, he is still training and has yet to be assigned a hero identity.
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Actually, I think Oliver needs Diggle more than ever. He's certainly backslid on the hero thing. I don't want Diggle as a recurring character; the Team Arrow dynamic is what pulled me in.

Sara doesn't cut it, and I don't see her adding to team dynamic. Really, the team needs to be there to help *Oliver* evolve as a hero -- and I don't see that she does that. I don't care about Sin. At all. By all means, spin Sara, Sin and whoever else off into a Birds of Prey series, and that would be great. But this is *Arrow*, and I don't want to be sidetracked with that. Just my two cents.
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Reply to "Oliver is human." He has Roy, Diggle and Felicity (aside from Sara) and he's dealt with a former assassin for Ra's Al Ghul, Malcolm, also on the superhuman front he's bested Slade once and not to mention Cyrus Gold. I'm not arguing for not liking Sara, I do, only think she's the expendable. As of now she's quite necessary as is anyone to take on Deathstroke but apart from the Mirakuru we have not seen a challenge that Team Arrow hasn't been able to take on without Sara, unless it was caused by Sara's presence such as is the case with the League of Assassins coming to town. The Clock King does not count because we don't know what would've happened if say Diggle would've gone after him.
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Oliver does have Diggle and Roy, but I think that Sarah is a lot more usefulnthan them. She is more experienced and better trained if I was Oliver I'd rather have her than those two on my team and that is just profesionly speaking, ther is also the fact that Sarah is a very interesting character outside that whole vigilante fight thing, which is why I truly hope she doesn't die
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Some of us see the potential and purpose of some like Sara/Black Canary in a (Green)Arrow series. This is not just about a character as a hero/team member, but their use to the show as a person overall.

Like you say just going to have to agree to disagree on that, will wait and see what happens next.
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I agree there is really not much to do with Diggle, at this point he is more like a parent figure to the rest of the team, I think that his actions are very predictable, and as you pointed out if he was actually necessary and useful then there wouldn't be any issues about people taking his screen time or making him useless. I mean no one is talking about new characters making Felicity useless. and that is because she has distinct skills that others don't so it doesn't matter how many other superheros come along or how much the cave expands she will always have a purpose and Diggle just doesn't have that.
I am however very worried about Sarah's future. I really want her to stick around but I am really scared that they might kill her off in order for Laurel to become Canary which would suck. This season has made Laurel the most unlikable character on the show and I don't think that there is anything they could do to fully redeem her, and if they could there is still a small mater of training. Laurel has no combat skills whatsoever so the idea of her suddenly becoming a superhero is just simply ridiculous
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You make some great points but I actually do see potential for Diggle, if nothing else as a catalyst for any other major season event to transpire. As of now he is useless but he is the voice of reason for Oliver and if nothing else maybe that's all he should be like Dr. Melfi to Sopranos only less weird.

I see absolutely no growth for Sara, IMO she's reached her stop. On the other hand I do see a future for Roy and can't wait to see how that comes together!
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I am pretty much sure this season too will end with death of one of the main character. Last episode was amazingly balanced one apart from Roy's part but one can't expect each episode like that. So its obvious due to problem of plenty, one of them (although I love both of them but still my bet is on Sarah or Diggle) is gonna die. In a war against Deathstroke casualty is given.
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Sara in that case, Diggle is too important of a character and a fundamental part of Arrow!
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*cheers Halo*!
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i really want Roy to not have powers anymore, I too want more weapons and parkour!!!!!
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completely agree, what Oliver can't do and should do is train him.. He can only give him menial tasks that serve to sooth him or whatnot, don't like that at all! Mainly since Roy can take someone down with one punch so why would he need all of those introverted combos that Ollie would know?
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Have to state as well that last episode was pretty outstanding in handling every character (apart from Roy, but he's not a full fledged member yet)! Can't wait to see more of this only including Roy in a proper way now that Slade is back. I'm pretty sure that next episode is Island-heavy so not sure if we'll see a lot of the issues with Slade officially announcing himself, be addressed. Loving this season so much and can't wait to see what's going to happen with everything!
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okay, we may not like sarah that much and roy may not be a full-time recruit in team arrow (atleast, for now) but .. roy according to the comics has a major role to play as he is going to be the red arrow in the series .. Oliver's main side-kick (in future) and arrow is just 2 season's old (1.5 seasons actually) so we should atleast wait for a while ..

and also, no more additions to the team arrrow please and let diggle do something! 'cos he is kind of useless for now .. and i'd be so MAD!!!!!! if you guys kill him off in near future or something ..
no more additions please, no more!
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Yeah exactly, Roy should be who he is in the comics because I prefer that over "superpower dude" anyday! Still, don't want them to rush into developments but rather smoothen their way in..
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yes, exactly what everyone wants and if slade wilson is the villian for this season than i guess roy has a big part coming up in the next few episodes ..
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I really liked the Diggle addition to the team, but now with Sarah, he does absolutely nothing! Let Diggle do something Oliver! Get rid of Sarah; not a big fan of her joining team arrow, and anyways, isn't Laurel aka Dinah Lance supposed to be Black Canary? (not that I'm a fan of Laurel right now either)
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I actually haven't heard or seen anywhere anymore that Laurels first name is Dinah. Her mother's name is Dinah, but I suppose that she probably won't become BC. We need to remember that on TV or Movies writers make bigger or smaller changes. For Arrow sake, thank god, because new 52 Green Arrow sucks.
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Actually New 52 Green Arrow became one of my favorite reads after issue 17 when Jeff Lemire took over, if you haven't read it since I can promise some mind blowing to be made!

Yeah, it's pretty reasonable for them to change things up and it doesn't surprise me that with Dinah's sister comes a Black Canary we wouldn't expect, if they got predictable we wouldn't be as entertained!
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Story line in the new 52 is pretty good, but I don't like these big changes, like how they changed Oliver. He isn't charismatic anymore. And why his hometown is Seattle? I guess, I have missed something, but I don't think that I have encountered with Star city in any new 52 comic.

Those clan wars are very good. Action overall nicely paced, but I want more Green Arrow jokes. I want it to be a bit lighter, but I think that it wont happen because I can't name one new 52 comic that would be light and funny. Even Flash is serious as f--k.

But biggest flaw ,for me in new 52 GA, is artwork. It's very stylish, but not for me. Sometimes it's hard to tell, what's have been drawn.
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That's why it got so good after 17, more focus on Ollie and all. They even go to the island for some exploring of his New 52'd mind, not to mention how awesome the new story-lines are (I personally hated the clan wars). So if you haven't, I highly suggest it ;)
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I'm kind of middle of the road on the whole "Team Arrow is crowded" meme. There is some concern that it could take focus off of Ollie. That is valid but I've not see that so far. The different "team-ups" have allowed Oliver to really develop both as a character and more towards the Green Arrow. I would like to see it over time evolve more into ensemble territory. As long as the ensemble is good, and I think right now it largely is, then yeah some characters might be sidelined for several episode as an arc plays out.

Green Arrow has traditionally had a pretty rich set of team members, at least in the comics. With the various Speedy's and then Connor Hawke's turn as Green Arrow, then back to sort of sidekick after Ollie came back from the dead.. Black Canary was pretty intrinsic to the Green Arrow legacy until the New 52 reboot. So the framework is there for Arrow to capitalize on that, and I think they have built some great additions to Green Arrow legacy with Diggle and Felicity.

Nolan portrayed Batman as a real lone wolf type is his adaptation, but I think an important part of Batman is his entourage, more so then just Alfred. The Robin's particularly the evolution of Dick Grayson from original Robin (first superhero sidekick?) to Nightwing is important to the character of Batman. I don't have as great an affinity for the seemingly modern pop-culture brooding lone "Dark Knight".

I'm comfortable with the ensemble nature of Team Arrow. Quality is far more important than quantity. I like/liked the Roy character. I even like the Sara Black Canary. I'm tepid so far on Mirakuru Roy but I'm willing to see how it plays out. I can see them de-powering him as a character/plot device.

I think a show with a strong ensemble has a much better chance of running longer and evolving overtime than, Ollie all the times, always.
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I see your point, do keep in mind that comics run for several issues over a very long time span so setting up the characters in a world and a team can take longer time therefore be done well but I do agree! I just don't want them to over do it and find themselves in the mud..
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I kind of agree, but, the seasons not over yet!
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I love arrow always will and that's due to it dark edge over other superhero shows past oh and Oliver he's just gorgeous any way I like Sara and what she adds to the show and team arrow as black canary but for me Roy is the problem I don't know why but since he got his powers and joined the arrow squad his presence just added a less adult environment and it just doesn't work for me Oliver needs to ship him off to a deserted island for some zen time and allow him to mature abit more.
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I really love Sara, so I am glad that she has joined Team Arrow. However... I completely agree. I think Roy's addition - more than Sara's - just really kinda ruined the team dynamic. His superpowers plus him taking Diggle's role as having Ollie's back and then who knows what else? Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I hope they have an end game in mind and are aware of how strange of a makeup the team makes now, but I am not going to hold my breath.
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During some interview one of the cast members noted the fans reactions to the size of Team Arrow and stated that Deathstroke poses that big of a threat that they will need all of them. I on the other hand think that's exactly why they shouldn't have this many on the team. If I had it my way I would de-power Roy, send Canary off to Birds of Prey with Huntress (I'm presuming that's how she'll return this season) and give Diggle a raise for sticking out amongst all these totally superior people.
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"If I had it my way I would de-power Roy, send Canary off to Birds of Prey with Huntress (I'm presuming that's how she'll return this season) and give Diggle a raise for sticking out amongst all these totally superior people."

This. Digg is the one thing that not one of the others are: emotionally mature and stable. That may not seem like much, but when you've got potential combat situations, it's needed. It's the cool heads and strategists who make the most of what you have and get the job done. Again, Sara's a solo player; how's she going to know how best to utilize a team? Roy's too young and Felicity's intel. And Oliver, while charismatic, is just not far enough along on the hero's journey, nor does *he* have any real leadership skills.
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First of all I want to say....(doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand)...
I went back and watched season 1 again. I liked the narrative that Oliver did in the episodes...before there was a Diggle and Felicity. I miss that in this season. I wish we have more personal insight into Oliver. That could lead to some more mystery, tension, or a more developed story.

I hear what you are saying. I was fine with Diggle...you need someone who can provide a cover story or some backup.
Felicity....yeah...in the tech age...you NEED someone like that.

In comic books, you can have a ton of characters and make the story work. Because you have years and many many issues to develop characters and story lines.

In TV land....more characters and multiple story lines can lead to failure in a show. One of the main things thought in screen writing is that if you keep introducing characters...you may not be telling the story that needs or is intended to be told because you keep introducing more and more characters.
So far....the show is working for me.
I have to admit....I am not a big fan of Roy. Something about him hasn't set right with me since we first saw him.

I wonder when they are going to develop "Speedy".

I just that the writers don't get out of control with characters.


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agree completely. I mean when it's all on Oliver's shoulders there's so much more at stake and even though the show's improved, it's very easy to fail and I don't want that to happen. I'd happy if they introduced Mia, can't stop thinking about Smallville's Mia! Well, I suppose all we can do is trust the people behind the show and hope they keep the quality up!
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I have a thought that maybe Red Arrow might not be Roy's ultimate destination, that he could be a bad guy in the making. Who knows and our original thought that somehow Thea fills that sidekick role comes true.

I am fine with Sara but I think she might be better in smaller doses. Sort of like Root on POI who I love but I think seeing her every episode, her know it all attitude might drive me nuts. But for this season and knowing it is Slade that Oliver will have to be facing down, I think it is important that Oliver actually needs to learn how to play the politics well. So, it'll be the secrets slowly being revealed on the Island and as Oliver and then the brutal honesty of our core three in the Arrow cave.
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In the comics, Roy and Mia were both the character "Speedy" at some point. In the show, Thea was called "Speedy". So....who knows where they are going with all this.
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also, as far as I remeber, Speedy was an x-hooker with AIDS so I don't see them going that way for Thea. And Boooo to Sara unless they kill her to add some more darkness to The Archer's character
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I hope the writers do...:)
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I hope it isn't Thea but it sure would be interesting. Roy could go towards become his other alternate persona, Arsenal, but since he doesn't need weapons it doesn't seem likely.
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I'm in two minds. It almost seems ridiculous at this point NOT to tell Thea. I mean, who DOESN'T know? And how is Sin not going to figure out what's going on when she already knows who Sara is? And once Sin figures out and tells Thea (which she undoubtedly will, or will slip a la hugging Sara when she supposedly doesn't know her), then you've got a mess in the making.

Besides, Thea's running Verdant now. Just as a cover, it would be a lot more useful to have her on board than not, I'd think.
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Still Oliver is very keen on keeping those close to him (prior to Island) out of harms way and away from his secret dealings. Much like what we've seen with Laurel and also consequently with Tommy.
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