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Syfy (ended 2010)

2-20: it jumped the Shark for me. (possible spoilage)

  • Avatar of guidryp

    guidryp

    [1]Mar 17, 2006
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    I like mystery. I like suprises. I like change. I like the rug yanked out from under me (metaphorically).

    But I dislike when all sense of cohesion and character consistency goes out the window. In every episode of this series, nothing was done with a countering force. No group could act unchecked. Change was fiercly contested.

    Now everyone crumbles and and moves into crappy tent shanty town that looks like something out of an African save the children special. Starbuck gives up flying to play house in one of the shanty tents. Apollo decided to eat the rations of everyone who left galactica. Adama lets it all happen while growing a cheesy moustache.

    Does it seem out of character for incredibly tough willed people like Apollo, Starbuck and Adama to just roll over??

    Between the Apollo's fat suit, Adamas Moustache and Starbuck hair extensions, it felt like an SNL parody sketch of BSG, except here the actors are sort of playing themselves.

    A perfect examply of why you should never extend an episode while dropping Acid. No box-set for me.

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    DocMartigan

    [2]Mar 17, 2006
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    I don't know if they just rolled over.

    Adama definitely was following orders when Baltar ignored his warnings about a Cylon attack, and allowed the president to boss him around, but I think that is due to his past experiences with "fighting the power." It ended up splitting the fleet in two.

    And I personally believe (as you may or may not have read) that next season, there will be plenty of time devoted to what happened in that year we missed. Why Starbuck would leave flying, why Lee would take meds and rations, why Adama chose to grow a stache .

    I am hoping for a 50/50 split of current time (cylon occupation) and flashbacks to the last year. Lots and lots of very interesting material in there for me.
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  • Avatar of icanfix

    icanfix

    [3]Mar 18, 2006
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    i kind of a gree but then again anything is easy to explain, i definatly think that adama would have had baltat killed,

    then againonce settled u can imagine a fight with starbuck and her moving to the surface

    its definalty interesting but a change this soon could change the show, alot like the carpet was swept out from under our feet mid season 2of alias, and then agian in the finale

    im up to ailias season 3 ep 6
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  • Avatar of guidryp

    guidryp

    [4]Mar 18, 2006
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    Again I have no problem with massive changes, (I have watched all of alias and like the big changes, but alias has cookie cutter characters anyway, more like a cartoon compared to BSG), but here it just seems that all previous character development is out the window. Everyone key was replaced with limp, moldy dishrags. That is my major complaint.

    My only hope was that the last 30 minutes would be a dream sequence, a possible future type thing, but more reading indicates it is not.

    This was the best show on TV and I told that to everyone, and was planning to buy the box set for sure.

    There were some clunker episodes this season, but I could tolerate that, with "Downloaded" I thought brilliance is back, then it sinks into the muck.

    The finale Jumped big time for me. I can't see this one being pulled back in to my satisfaction. I won't bother trying to sell this show to anyone anymore.





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  • Avatar of DocMartigan

    DocMartigan

    [5]Mar 18, 2006
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    OK
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  • Avatar of lishack77

    lishack77

    [6]Mar 20, 2006
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    jumping a year ahead was quite the risk, but only the first episodes of season three will tell if this show jumped the shark.its too early to ste this now.
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    sven-jolly

    [7]Mar 20, 2006
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    Ya, you're sitting between seasons, thinking next season will just be the way it will be, and we get no explanation. I would highly doubt that.
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  • Avatar of briantw

    briantw

    [8]Mar 21, 2006
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    I personally loved how it just jumped a year ahead of time. Of course, I am also assuming that a lot of what happened in that year will be accounted for next season (and really, how could they not go back and show us what happened?).

    I just think that, for the sake of a season finale, it's much more effective to show us the results of settling and how it completely shatters all of the main characters in various ways, leaving us to question just what the hell happened for six months or so, and then coming back in the next season to show us what happened.

    I really can't think of a more effective way they could have ended the season. With Baltar president, the Cylons in command, the fleet jumping away, and all of the characters broken already, the humans are worse off than ever, and, in a show like BSG, that's what I want to see in my finale.
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  • Avatar of FrakkingFrakker

    FrakkingFrakker

    [9]Mar 21, 2006
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    briantw wrote:
    ...the humans are worse off than ever,....


    This is one of those things I'd been thinking about. Really, it's quite the right way to go...this really raised the stakes, as it were. The humans have an even tougher battle to fight now. I think there is something interesting to be done there.

    I also beleive there were still interesting stories to be told without re-jiggering everything. Oh, How I wish I had an answer...failing, that...Oh how I wish it were October!
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  • Avatar of guidryp

    guidryp

    [10]Mar 21, 2006
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    What it shattered for me was everything that made BSG great. BSG was great because it turned expectations on their head while still maintaining some sense of reality.

    This shatters any sense of reality. It looks like a dream sequence because it is so unreal. No character is true to form, it is like looking at a cheesy parallel universe story on other Sci-fi, or the already mentioned dream sequence.

    I loved this series for its depth and intricacy of character and story and it's internal consistency in all things.

    I have no problem with the concept of the jump ahead, or even of settling a planet. But this just seems done in such a amateurish manner, it starkly shatters my suspension of disbelief. It sinks to the level of oddity for oddities sake.

    It is like a different team (fresh out of film 101) took over in the last 30 minutes, and decided to replace the previous attitude of taking risks to produce quality, with one of taking risk for the mere sake of taking risk.

    Unlike the last cliff hanger which had me stunned by the impact and brilliance, this one had me shaking my head at the comic book cheese.

    I think the producers got tremendously self indulgent here after listening to all the hype. The people like the unexpected, well lets give them more of that... blah.

    This sophomoric ending, really ruined this for me. Of course in the eyes of many they now like BSG because of all the hype so it wouldn't really matter what they did. But this is a pale shadow of what made the show great last year.

    The intricacy and the seeming realness are out the window.I feel like it turned into the final episode of "Twin Peaks".
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  • Avatar of DocMartigan

    DocMartigan

    [11]Mar 21, 2006
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    Why is it unrealistic?

    And "Character's being true to form" is bullsh*t. Sorry.

    Characters aren't allowed to change? I didn't know that.

    Are you talking about Starbuck and Chief and the rest not wanting to stay on Galactica?

    Who the hell would? They are endlessly circling the planet. Chief would have no work to do in the deck. Starbuck has no dog fights. Gaeta most likely felt betrayed (he may have even caught a lot of sh*t for what he did, we don't know).

    I don't understand how you can say the characters aren't true to form when you have absolutely no idea what they went through over that entire year.

    Like Adama said... that is a longer amount of time than the time that passed since the Cylon attack on the colonies.

    You can not like the year jump... but saying the characters aren't true to form has nothing behind it. At the end, Starbuck even says "We fight them until we can't"...

    "OMG she isn't 'true to form!'"

    She is, she just didn't feel like rotting on Galactica with nothing to do. It was bad enough for the survivors when they were stuck aboard ship and they got to kill Cylons Now they are stuck aboard a Battlestar, going literally in circles, with no real purpose.

    I may be missing your point entirely... but I don't see how them not having resources, medicine, Baltar being a terrible president, Rosling teaching ("not true to form!"), Adama staying with his ship, Lee and Kara being pissed, Chief knocking up Callie or anything else it showed in the last 30 minutes being unrealistic or cheesy or inconsistent (at least no more so than the rest of the series). It was pretty on par with everything else actually.

    It was just a shell shock that we missed an entire year of their lives (which if I am right, we will get in the way of flashbacks). I have a feeling that is what you are upset with. That they skipped forward an entire year. Which is fine, to each their own... but I really take issue with you saying, again, that it was unrealistic(that people would want to stop running? Live somewhere other than a ship? Be safe? What?) cheesy (the mustache? we've already seen him with it.) or inconsistent (A year forward means things change... did you expect every person to look the same? act the same? have the same feelings towards everyone else? all still be mulling about the same jobs on their ships?)

    I may be missing something, if so... please detail what was so afwully unrealistic, or cheesy, out of character, or inconsistent. I still have it on my Tivo, and I will want to watch the parts you explain again.
    Edited on 03/21/2006 11:26pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of guidryp

    guidryp

    [12]Mar 22, 2006
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    No need to get snippy because you disagree.

    The whole sequence after Baltars head hit the table seemed completely unreal to me, and it broke my suspension of disbelief. That is a fatal sin with any fiction for me.

    I enjoy a large amount of science fiction and fantasy programming. I liked and really got into Twin Peaks, Farscape, Millenium, The Prisoner, Lost.

    The outlandish is tolerable as long as you maintain a sense of internal consistency. That is the cardinal rule. The mess after Baltars head hit the table broke that rule.

    After a cyclon blew up the warhead, there is no way Adama would have meekly gone along with Baltar. Even Baltar is completely over the top in is his mad Caligula dictator role, which is also inconsistent with the total scrutiny Roslin faced in every decision she made.

    I simply can't believe that facing evidence the Cylons are still hostile, they move into a shantytown on an in inhospital rock and abadon any sense of a sound defence. Many of these folks had too much steel in their spines, but now it all turned to Jello.

    There was just too much strain on credulity here. The credulity strain, and the whole sureal sense during this section are the stuff that sharks are jumped by.


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    Im2Crazy4U

    [13]Mar 22, 2006
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    guidryp wrote:
    After a cyclon blew up the warhead, there is no way Adama would have meekly gone along with Baltar. Even Baltar is completely over the top in is his mad Caligula dictator role, which is also inconsistent with the total scrutiny Roslin faced in every decision she made.


    Adama has no choice to go along with Baltar since he is the President. And the very obvious reason why Roslin faced such scrutiny and Baltar does not appear to is two fold. The first is that only Zarek caused all the crap against Roslin, and he is now "not present". The second is that the people were just glad to call somewhere home.

    It's called the honeymoon phase of a new President. This phase is obviously over since the workers were getting ready to revolt (strike) because of his chocies and then the Cylons arrival cemented the issue.
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    JeronimoJackson

    [14]Mar 22, 2006
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    Would it have really added that much to show everything that had happened on New Caprica during that year? That would consume another season. There were obviously some highlights from the year since Baltar's election, but would that be enough to fill an entire season?

    The discovery of New Caprica was a huge milestone in humanity's post-apocalypse history. The cylons' discovery of New Caprica was the next big one. I think the producers are approaching BSG as a sort of historical drama. When you think in those terms, it makes sense for them to do jump ahead to the major milestones in the timeline.

    I also agree that there is plenty of material they can fill in with flashbacks, as a lot of personal history with the characters obviously has taken place during that impasse.

    I liked the 1-year passage thing. It's too early to say if the show has jumped the shark. You can't really judge the show until season 3 (and future seasons) are shown. Saying whether a show jumped the shark is only something you can do in retrospect.
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    DocMartigan

    [15]Mar 22, 2006
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    And the term "Jumped the Shark" has jumped the shark...

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    danharr

    [16]Mar 22, 2006
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    You were either with it or not yadda yadda yadda. I personally liked the turn of events and each one of the characters fit perfectly to me. As for laying down to settle on some planet, I would have to say one would personally have to reach such a point of desperation to understand. The planet gave them hope and they took it no cylons why stay on Galactica?
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    fcjd06

    [17]Mar 22, 2006
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    DocMartigan wrote:
    And the term "Jumped the Shark" has jumped the shark...

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    ...I wholeheartedly concur! People discussing television shows are using this term way too often as an oblique substitute for actually discussing what they didn't like.
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  • Avatar of fcjd06

    fcjd06

    [18]Mar 22, 2006
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    guidryp wrote:
    No need to get snippy because you disagree.

    The whole sequence after Baltars head hit the table seemed completely unreal to me, and it broke my suspension of disbelief. That is a fatal sin with any fiction for me.

    I enjoy a large amount of science fiction and fantasy programming. I liked and really got into Twin Peaks, Farscape, Millenium, The Prisoner, Lost.

    The outlandish is tolerable as long as you maintain a sense of internal consistency. That is the cardinal rule. The mess after Baltars head hit the table broke that rule.



    Please explain why you think the time leap is so unreal; particularly how it violates that which you purport as "internal consistency." Many have responded to you with explanations as to how the changes we've seen do not violate particular notions of "internal consistency." It would be of value for us to understand why you discount these explanations as opposed to the tired refrain that involves shark-jumping.

    guidryp wrote:

    After a cyclon blew up the warhead, there is no way Adama would have meekly gone along with Baltar. Even Baltar is completely over the top in is his mad Caligula dictator role, which is also inconsistent with the total scrutiny Roslin faced in every decision she made.


    ...Maybe so. We really don't know what happened. Perhaps there was some resistance, but in the end it might have been ineffective; alternatively, it could still be ongoing and it may have to cope with the Cylons. There are a lot of ambiguities here, perhaps Adama and Roslin have made some preparations in that faithful year that have yet come to bear-- we really don't know yet.

    guidryp wrote:

    I simply can't believe that facing evidence the Cylons are still hostile, they move into a shantytown on an in inhospital rock and abadon any sense of a sound defence. Many of these folks had too much steel in their spines, but now it all turned to Jello.


    ...The Cylons, through Brother Cabil, represented that they were discontinuing their pursuit of the fleet. The people of the fleet were weary, wanted to beleive this, and wanted to settle as evidenced by electing Baltar President to pursue that aim. Moore explained that one of the points of the election was to explore the question of whether people "vote their hopes" or whether they "vote their fears." It appears the Colonials were "voting their hopes" (of maybe their wishful thinking) as embodied by the chance to give up life on the run, and to settle on New Caprica. With political support waning, I don't think Adama, Roslin, and company could have overtly resisted this desire despite the purported steel in their spines. Now we get to see everyone deal with the consequences of settling on New Caprica and the ramifications of the Colonials (apparently) vain attempt to leave the fight.

    guidryp wrote:

    There was just too much strain on credulity here. The credulity strain, and the whole sureal sense during this section are the stuff that sharks are jumped by.

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    ...The whole point of this sequence is that things change. The fleet's situation radically changed with the election of Baltar and the settlement of New Caprica. We just got a small snippet of how this change affected the show's characters. I think the challenge of this show lies in trying to understand how this situation changed the characters into what we saw in the last third of "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II." This challenge represents the risk that the show is taking whereby a significant portion of the audience may refuse to follow.
    ...Guidryp, I think you're going about the right way in asking questions about how the characters could have possibly changed to the extent that we have seen; however, I do not agree with your adamant insistence that this lies outside the realm of possibility. I just think that we need to know more about what happened in the year we skipped. I hope this will be explored in the context of how the Colonials react to the apparent Cylon occupation of New Caprica. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part but I have faith in Moore and company, and am looking forward to next season despite the long wait.
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  • Avatar of DocMartigan

    DocMartigan

    [19]Mar 22, 2006
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    I dunno... I think I made some fairly good, very specific points... none of which were addressed.

    And I agree, that when someone says "It's jumped the shark!" It's just a way to say "This show sucks! But I don't know why..."
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    guidryp

    [20]Mar 23, 2006
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    fcjd06 wrote:
    Please explain why you think the time leap is so unreal; particularly how it violates that which you purport as "internal consistency." Many have responded to you with explanations as to how the changes we've seen do not violate particular notions of "internal consistency." It would be of value for us to understand why you discount these explanations as opposed to the tired refrain that involves shark-jumping.


    Many have responded with rationalizations. Like Adama has to listen to Baltar because he is president. I would think that is too simplistic to even bother countering. Adama put Roslin in Jail for merely sending Starbuck on a mission. He plotted the assasination of another commander because he thought she was unstable. Baltar is obviously completely off his rocker, being totally irrational, in full Caligula mad dictator mode. And now Adama just does what he is told? You can try to rationalize reasons, but this is out of character with what we have seen from the man.

    fcjd06 wrote:
    ...The Cylons, through Brother Cabil, represented that they were discontinuing their pursuit of the fleet.... I don't think Adama, Roslin, and company could have overtly resisted this desire despite the purported steel in their spines.


    The exploding warhead, combined with looney Baltar, combined with the indefensible path they going down, should have spurred our stalwarts to action, if their past characterizations mean anything. Trusting the Cylons is not soemthing that they would do so easily given the circumstances and their histories.

    fcjd06 wrote:
    Now we get to see everyone deal with the consequences of settling on New Caprica and the ramifications of the Colonials (apparently) vain attempt to leave the fight.


    This is more an ends justifies the means type statement. They needed to get to a more interesting story line, so they fudged it, riding roughshod of the characterizations they previous built in the show.

    fcjd06 wrote:
    ...The whole point of this sequence is that things change. The fleet's situation radically changed with the election of Baltar and the settlement of New Caprica. We just got a small snippet of how this change affected the show's characters. I think the challenge of this show lies in trying to understand how this situation changed the characters into what we saw in the last third of "Lay Down Your Burdens, Part II." This challenge represents the risk that the show is taking whereby a significant portion of the audience may refuse to follow.


    I have no problem with things changing, but when it is done poorly, I have a problem and here it was. It looks more like cop out than risk. Quickly jumping to another storyline without a sufficient selling of the new reality. Making the jump is easy. But when you do something like this you have to do the necessary work to hold the whole together. I think they skipped the work.

    fcjd06 wrote:
    ...Guidryp, I think you're going about the right way in asking questions about how the characters could have possibly changed to the extent that we have seen; however, I do not agree with your adamant insistence that this lies outside the realm of possibility. I just think that we need to know more about what happened in the year we skipped. I hope this will be explored in the context of how the Colonials react to the apparent Cylon occupation of New Caprica. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part but I have faith in Moore and company, and am looking forward to next season despite the long wait.


    The best thing about BSG, is despite the situation and dispite the changes, despite fantastic circumstance, they always kept it real. And here it just rings False.

    A few flashbacks will never be able to justify the broad diversions in many of the characters and even what we have seen of the society as a whole.

    To me they just cheesed their way to a new plot line, skipped the work of how they could possibly get from here to there. With that move the huge respect I had for the show is lost. Now it is just another show in the pack. I hate seeing potential greatness squandered.

    The wait will be much easier than last time, because my expectations are now quite low. I think they are taking the show in the direction of change for the sake of change, wierdness for the sake of wierdness. I was here for the hard realism and unfolding mystery of the cylon plan. Sound like both are out the window.

    I will give it a chance, but if they don't explain the irrational gap, I give up.
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