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Discussion - "Collaborators" (spoilers)

  • Avatar of danharr

    danharr

    [21]Oct 27, 2006
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    Good episode i'm glad somebody made Gaeta speak up all the while I was like if this idiot isn't going to tell his story then killem he's too dumb to live. Anyway I liked the ideal of a group of vigilantes doing the dirty work but VP being the culprit behind the scenes was great for his character. Not to happy about yet another emotional side-story involving Starbuck but hopefully they'll focus on Balthar will eclipse any other nonsense.
    Edited on 10/29/2006 6:18am
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [22]Oct 27, 2006
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    Everyone, don't forget to sign on to SciFi.com for exclusive cast interviews (including Jamie Bamber and Michael Hogan) and a video preview of future episodes. There's an interesting scene with Kara in the shower room (and no, it doesn't involve any nudity at all). The video will only be available for a few more hours.
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  • Avatar of GuyV23

    GuyV23

    [23]Oct 27, 2006
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    Complex Episode Great but very Complex what I took away from this episodes is that the terms Good Guys or Bad Guys truly has no meaning everything is grey and that just makes things that much more interesting. Baltar oh Baltar what are they going to do with you.

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    WarGrowlmon15

    [24]Oct 27, 2006
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    wedgeantilles54 wrote:

    looks like the Cylons are going to go after um again with no problems, the resurection ship is back again or there was more than one all along and they just had to get it there

    Zarrak it seems was president for a few days and well he set things in motion in an interesting manner

    Well Jammer is gone and i kinda feel sorry for him.

    Well it seems that Starbuck and Anders have issues too which is really going to make things interesting over the next few episodes. It also seems that we where all wrong about Col. Tigh hes right back in his old job but he has issues which we all agreed would happen.

    The truth and reconcillation committe bit at the end is straight out of South Africa and some of the other African countries, that have set up such commissions in the wake of Apratide in the case of South Africa and civilwars in many of the others.

    And the preview for next week is makes it look like things are just going to get more interesting espically since #3 says something about the Cylons wanting to make Earth their new home.


    Well Roslin is right some of those people do deserve a second chance like Gaeta and maybe Jammer since he did save Cally and protected Roslin in the Battle of New Caprica.
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  • Avatar of WarGrowlmon15

    WarGrowlmon15

    [25]Oct 27, 2006
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    123home123 wrote:
    Wow. I was wondering where the story would go after the New Caprica sequence. I'd have to say that this episode is one of the best of the entire series. Similar to "Downloaded," it was a very quiet story but a powerful and dramatic one. Seeing the characters that we've known for so long facing imminent death at the hands of fellow humans had a lot of emotional impact, both Jammer's scene and Gaeta's scene.

    I like how the entire plan was thought up by Zarek. That makes complete sense for his character. He is an expert in the matters of martyrdom, casting himself as a martyr for years in the time before the initial Cylon attack on the Colonies. I also liked how Roslin and Adama responded, especially Roslin's general pardon at the end. I guess Roslin and Adama were right to force Zarek out of office. He probably would have become as bad as Baltar was on New Caprica. Zarek is only good at fighting. He isn't really good at leading a peacetime government as he showed.

    This is the first time this season that I've really been interested in Kara's story. I never felt her desperation before, but in this episode I did. Her scene with Anders at the meeting of the Circle was downright chilling. She seems to have surpassed even Tigh in the depths to which she has sunk.

    Again, an outstanding episode, not just for the show but for television in general. A true dramatic classic.

    I think she was just changed by her experiences and probably has a lot of pent up anger left over.
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  • Avatar of quote12

    quote12

    [26]Oct 27, 2006
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    There's an acute psychological insight in Kara lashing out, wanting to hurt someone or anyone, not because she was particularly mistreated but because she was duped. Her own emotions betrayed her, as Leoben "gave" her a child and then her own people took it away. She feels worse about her own responses as about anything that happened to her during her house arrest, and needs to direct that self-loathing at other hapless humans. Saul Tigh feels even guiltier, and no wonder. He has just (apparently) murdered his wife, and quite unnecessarily. In the confusion of the attack that he knew was coming, he could have left her alive on New Caprica. He could have chanced human justice, taken her back to the fleet and insisted on a trial. In the end, he loved his status more than his wife. That guilty knowledge has only increased his penchant for making decisions that are wrong morally, politically, strategically or all three. The one downside of this otherwise well-written epidose is that by now, Col. Tigh practically has "Moron" tattooed on his forehead. He's dangerously unstable, which may make for some big scenes down the road but is less interesting than a drunk, marginally competent man struggling to adjust.

    On the other hand, Helo, Tyrol and Roslin all showed their deeper dimensions as characters, with the all-too-rare ability to ultimately reject the bloody cycle of revenege, at least against their own people. It will be interesting to see whether that comes into play in future encounters with the Cylons. And it should be _ but here surprisingly isn't _ needless to say that killing someone else is the opposite of being a martyr. No even halfway astute politician sets out to create martyrs of his opponents.
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  • Avatar of gcswift2

    gcswift2

    [27]Oct 27, 2006
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    danharr wrote:
    Good episode i'm glad somebody made Gaeta speak up all the while I was like if this idiot isn't going to tell his story then killem he's too dumb to live.  Anyway ....

    First of all Gaeta did speak up for himself. He had told Starbuck earlier in Chowhall what he had done. She didn't care enough to listen. Remember, she wasn't on the Jury when he told her either. When she was brought into the Jury and told of the "Evidence" against him she said nothing, except guilty. After they abducted Gaeta and read to him the charges and their conclusions he said that he had already spoken about his innocence (To Starbuck), and he would not beg for forgiveness.

    Starbuck just wanted to kill somebody. She didn't care who it was. Then to add insult to injury she wanted to make a game of it by making him beg. Screw her.

    This is the reason we have an open system and why you need to have oversight and separation of powers.

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [28]Oct 27, 2006
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    It also shows that despite his courage in standing up to Baltar and the Cylons, Zarek's fundamental nature hasn't changed. Even before the initial Cylon attack he engaged in harsh and brutal acts against fellow humans. He's a guerilla warrior, not a politician and civilian leader.

    I wonder if Roslin will follow through on her promise to name Zarek the new vice president.
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  • Avatar of mandissaL

    mandissaL

    [29]Oct 27, 2006
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    Incredibly well-done episode. In some ways, it was almost too hard to watch. I mean I was faced with some of my favorite characters (Tyrol, Starbuck and even for awhile Anders) doing uspeakable things. I looked at them and thought to myself 'They're murderers. They've turned into murderers.' It was an unpleasant feeling and just goes to show the genuis of the show's writers. I thought the episode was going to be some cute commentary on situations like Vichy France. There were undercurrents of that, but the writers went straight for something closer to home-- the establishment of 'military tribunals' with little to no oversight. Given that this episode was written before that law giving the president unparralled power in how to try captured enemies was put into place-- it was just voted on a few weeks ago--there is no end to my admiration for the writing team of BSG. Fantastic episode as usual, but so so sad. Its strange that with all that went on in the episode, the thing that saddened me the most was the change in Starbuck and its effect on her relationship with Anders. I was confused by one of the last scenes when she saw her tag and ring in her locker. What were they trying to get at there? Didn't get it-- must be from watching at 1a.m. lol . If someone could clarify, I would appreciate that.
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  • Avatar of AprilFox

    AprilFox

    [30]Oct 28, 2006
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    Another brilliant episode, I really saw parallels to the madness of accusations of betrayal to the old west way of dealing with said criminals, hang him high. I really felt that Baltar may have a connection or link with Roslin somehow that frightens me, afterall she had her cancer cured by a cyclon/human baby. (can we call them cybaby) Tigh and his group frightened me beyond belief. Seeing the Resurrection ship, I went oh no here we go again! As for Starbuck, I think I like this cold edged Kara after how the cyclons played her, messed with her head no wonder her and Tigh are on the brink what better way to destroy the humans than mess with their heads, I think the Cyclons are finding that out. As they realize how you can attack them by taking a loved one. Sneaky devils! Love how Tigh calls them toasters! It's nice to have a chuckle even though it's a very serious toned episode. All in all can't wait to see what happens next.
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  • Avatar of Darkness1234

    Darkness1234

    [31]Oct 28, 2006
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    Very good episode, when they abducted Gaeta the guy who did helped them with everything they did. Guess it won't take long for the entire fleet to find out and all say sorry to him. I thought Gaeta would of cried and begged but NO he didn't beg.
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  • Avatar of Finalsequel

    Finalsequel

    [32]Oct 28, 2006
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    Darkness1234 wrote:
    Very good episode, when they abducted Gaeta the guy who did helped them with everything they did. Guess it won't take long for the entire fleet to find out and all say sorry to him. I thought Gaeta would of cried and begged but NO he didn't beg.


    I was impressed by Gaeta. I just knew that when they brought him to the air lock he would start pleading and crying, but would never say that he was the informant and ending being toseed out to space. I liked how he handled the situation.
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  • Avatar of ko-9

    ko-9

    [33]Oct 28, 2006
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    Yes, I'm sort of hoping that Gaeta's acts of heroism during the resistance would become public and get him some recognition.
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  • Avatar of wedgeantilles54

    wedgeantilles54

    [34]Oct 28, 2006
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    You know that there is going to be some tension with gaeta rejoining the millitary
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  • Avatar of WarGrowlmon15

    WarGrowlmon15

    [35]Oct 28, 2006
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    quote12 wrote:
    There's an acute psychological insight in Kara lashing out, wanting to hurt someone or anyone, not because she was particularly mistreated but because she was duped. Her own emotions betrayed her, as Leoben "gave" her a child and then her own people took it away. She feels worse about her own responses as about anything that happened to her during her house arrest, and needs to direct that self-loathing at other hapless humans. Saul Tigh feels even guiltier, and no wonder. He has just (apparently) murdered his wife, and quite unnecessarily. In the confusion of the attack that he knew was coming, he could have left her alive on New Caprica. He could have chanced human justice, taken her back to the fleet and insisted on a trial. In the end, he loved his status more than his wife. That guilty knowledge has only increased his penchant for making decisions that are wrong morally, politically, strategically or all three. The one downside of this otherwise well-written epidose is that by now, Col. Tigh practically has "Moron" tattooed on his forehead. He's dangerously unstable, which may make for some big scenes down the road but is less interesting than a drunk, marginally competent man struggling to adjust.

    On the other hand, Helo, Tyrol and Roslin all showed their deeper dimensions as characters, with the all-too-rare ability to ultimately reject the bloody cycle of revenege, at least against their own people. It will be interesting to see whether that comes into play in future encounters with the Cylons. And it should be _ but here surprisingly isn't _ needless to say that killing someone else is the opposite of being a martyr. No even halfway astute politician sets out to create martyrs of his opponents.

    That's true. I think Connor was just blood-thirsty though and had no compunctions against doing this.
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    WarGrowlmon15

    [36]Oct 28, 2006
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    123home123 wrote:
    It also shows that despite his courage in standing up to Baltar and the Cylons, Zarek's fundamental nature hasn't changed. Even before the initial Cylon attack he engaged in harsh and brutal acts against fellow humans. He's a guerilla warrior, not a politician and civilian leader.

    I wonder if Roslin will follow through on her promise to name Zarek the new vice president.

    She should. What he did was wrong but he does seemed to have changed at least a bit if he's willing to give Roslin back the Presidency after all of that time he spent fighting her and even after he learned the truth of her attempt at stealing the office. He obviously has changed a bit or Roslin sees thngs a bit differently then the first time he had the chance to become Vice-President. He did look a bit surprised that he got that position or that Roslin accepted it so quickly because all he said was that he wanted to be part of the administration the way he said it I htink he would have been happy with any job he could get under her that was important which is ironic considering the fact that the first time he was introduced he wanted nothing more than to get rid of her. At least now they've seemed to have resolved their differences but this is still Tom Zarek and he'll do whatever he thinks is right.
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  • Avatar of wedgeantilles54

    wedgeantilles54

    [37]Oct 28, 2006
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    The following things have been bugging me

    So what exactly is ander's role in the fleet now?

    And wouldn't somebody wounder why several non military personal where on board galactica permanently, cause i don't think all of the members of the circle where members of the military.

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  • Avatar of Darkness1234

    Darkness1234

    [38]Oct 28, 2006
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    ko-9 wrote:
    Yes, I'm sort of hoping that Gaeta's acts of heroism during the resistance would become public and get him some recognition.

    That is also what I am hoping for.

    wedgeantilles54 wrote:
    You know that there is going to be some tension with gaeta rejoining the millitary

    There won't be because The Chief who everyone respects sat with him, when they speak to him about why he sat there we will tell them that Gaeta was the leak within the office and helped them immensely.

    The whole 6 saying they were a jury is untrue, they just wanted revenge. All of them except for The Chief and that guy who quit. The Chief did not want to execute Gaeta but Sal changed his mind, by saying how Gaeta was the brains behind Baltar. He had no evidence of it and still said it which proves they were not a jury and were out for revenge.
    You got to respect Gaeta when Starbuck hits him and says beg and he doesn't.
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  • Avatar of DarqAli

    DarqAli

    [39]Oct 28, 2006
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    No, my understanding was, that the "Jury of 6", or, "the Circle" was official, set up by President Zarek. He said he did so as a favor to Roslin, so that the collaborators could be dealt with swiftly before her new Presidency began, sparing her the effort. They were given but 3 days to review every case and pass judgement and carry out the sentences. We see them deal with three {I think} and know of a total of 14, or 15, the 13 who disappeared and Gaeta [the woman found guilty who was on another ship might not have been one of the 13, I am not sure].

    Zarek knew Roslin would opt for a public and proper legal proceedure, and feared it would consume her Presidency and cripple the fleet by taking focus off other important issues. By dealing with suspected collaborators secretly and swiftly, he wanted the issue done with and out of the way prior to his resigning.

    And because he was President, and signed Death Orders for each the "Jury" convicted, it was all legal in his mind, and in the minds of the Circle. "Pseudo legal", because it violated the Articles, actually, as I understand it.

    We are to look at "Star Chamber Justice". And no, this isn't about the current "War on Terror". People who know a little history will recognize the Star Chamber "justice" as from another era, another government. It was no more "just" then than it would be today.

    Thing is, the Jury said, we are having a "trial" and will look at "evidence" and we are administrating "justice"; we are NOT out for "revenge"; and then they proceeded to do the opposite: They had NO evidence against Gaeta, and said they didn't ............. and promptly "convicted" him, anyway. "Someone has to PAY" says Starbuck, so, never mind we have no EVIDENCE. In the end, that is how secret tribunals always function.

    "The guy who walked out" was Anders, Starbuck's husband. He saw that every person accused was being convicted and killed.

    The point is, secret tribunals do NOT mete out real "justice". Gaeta was anything but a traitor. He was a member of the real, legitimate, elected government of Baltar, which the majority had voted in. No crime in that! He was already unhappy with Baltar's rule, his drugs and "hot and cold running interns" and self-serving ways, when the Cylons arrived. He thought {rightly} that he could do the MOST to help his people by staying in place and getting inside information out to the Resistance, and they'd never have got off the planet without him.

    Yet they passed a Death Sentence upon him anyway.

    The need for TIME and public examination and defense attorneys is appearant, no matter how swiftly some would have such matters be dealt with. The "Circle" gave lip service to a "trail", but acquitted NO ONE. "To be accused was to be guilty", no EVIDENCE necessary. Again, they all agreed they had NO EVIDENCE against Gaeta, but found him guilty and were within seconds of tossing him out an airlock, when what he had already told Starbuck was repeated by her, recognized by The Chief as something only their "deep inside informant" could know ......... proving he was the KEY person in the entire populace's salvatin.

    Many will speak against Roslin's general pardon but considering all the circumstance, it was probably the best decision. Though, if there are Cylon agents in the population, they are probably happy about it too.

    May I say, the lady has BALLS.
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  • Avatar of trackstarbuck

    trackstarbuck

    [40]Oct 28, 2006
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    starbuck will return.
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