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Discussion - "Collaborators" (spoilers)

  • Avatar of bmoshier

    bmoshier

    [41]Oct 28, 2006
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    trackstarbuck wrote:
    bmoshier wrote:
    trackstarbuck wrote:
    i support the new group! somebody who collaborates w/ cylons has got to pay! they don`t deserve to live among humanity!


    I agree.  The proper authorities should introduce the collaborator to the nearest airlock and the vacum of space.

    President Roslin introduced a Cylon to the airlock and there is no reason not to continue to use them.

    Now the question is who are the proper authorities?  A board created by the President following the articles of the twelve colonies.  It must occur and must occur with due process.
    due process takes to long and never goes through w/ things that need to be done. politicians sit in their big white houses and think about problems, rather than do anything about them or help the poor man across the street. the government is designed to kill people who kill us to prove that we are right and killing is worng.

    Due process came along because the government was going around taking people out of their homes, killing them, making them disappear!

    The British taught the Americans power corupts!  To prevent the government from abusing its power there must be checks and balances - so hence due process.

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  • Avatar of bmoshier

    bmoshier

    [42]Oct 28, 2006
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    DarqAli wrote:
    The rescue of the prisoners slated to be massacred by the Cylons would not have happened except for Gaeta: *He gave The Resistance the list, and the understanding those on it were to be summeraly shot * He gave them the location for the executions * He had already in the past given them the key to the Cylons' map cooderanates, so that the Resistance could find the location and prevent the killings. The Rescue of the entire populace would not have been possible except for Gaeta. He gave the Resistance the Cylon jamming codes, so that at long last they could break through and contact Galactica. Without Gaeta's act, there could have been no contact with Galactica, no rescue plan with Resistance coordinating with the Military. So, having a fromal inquiry and trial, where Gaeta is given the chance to explain what he did to help is necessary. It "takes too long" and the formal structure of government "Just sits around". Shove him out the air lock, because "everyone knows" Gaeta is a traitor. Jammer, on the other hand, is not suspected. No formal inquiry necessary; no "digging" to uncover hidden Truth. Let him alone - no one knows what he did. That is what "vigilante justice" often as not produces: Destruction of innocent lives, while the guilty walk free. We have courts and so on for a reason. Shoving someone out an airlock may feel good, you may pat yourself on the back that you "DID something" while the silly Officials "sit around and move too slowly"; but often as not, you kill the wrong ones.

    Well, I'm glad Gaeta is a good guy now in everyone's eyes!!

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  • Avatar of bmoshier

    bmoshier

    [43]Oct 28, 2006
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    wedgeantilles54 wrote:

    And the preview for next week is makes it look like things are just going to get more interesting espically since #3 says something about the Cylons wanting to make Earth their new home.

    That sent a shiver down my spine!!

    Well obvious the Cylons never learn.  Their best course of action would be to ignore the humans until they come looking for the Cylons, which would be in thousands of years (I suspect).

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  • Avatar of kdubya8

    kdubya8

    [44]Oct 28, 2006
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    bmoshier wrote:
    trackstarbuck wrote:
    i support the new group! somebody who collaborates w/ cylons has got to pay! they don`t deserve to live among humanity!


    I agree.  The proper authorities should introduce the collaborator to the nearest airlock and the vacum of space.

    President Roslin introduced a Cylon to the airlock and there is no reason not to continue to use them.

    Now the question is who are the proper authorities?  A board created by the President following the articles of the twelve colonies.  It must occur and must occur with due process.

    I like the way Laura dealt with the sittuation. Reacting with violance wouldn't solve anything. A tempered, thought out responce is ALWAYS the way to go. Take a look at Iraq. At first people were all in favor of going in and kicking ass, we were still looking for payback for 9-11. Now years later we are starting to see it wasn't such a great idea.

    Looking for payback is never the way a cilvilized sociaty should act.

    Laura has time and again shown she is a very wise and thoughtful leader, and once again she came through.

    Anders really summed it up best when he said he was sick of killing. I am really curious where he will end up in the fleet.

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  • Avatar of StelingMB

    StelingMB

    [45]Oct 28, 2006
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    Roslin rocks! Her decision was the best I've seen yet this Season (second was them not killing Gaeta).

    Once the accusations start flying and the trials begin it would consume the fleet (citing the OJ Simpson trial, more people watched that thing on TV than anything ever on the history of CNN). What they all need to focus on now is repair and renewal.

    Overall a great pe. but far too short. Everytime the credits roll I feel as if I'm being cheated...
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [46]Oct 29, 2006
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    Even though this was a pretty dark and intense episode, Baltar still managed to throw in a few humorous moments.

    I loved the scene where he was shouting to Caprica Six "You need me! Admit it! Admit it, you need me!" When the Centurion blocks his path, he says "And I need you too! Did you hear me? I need you too!" Then he mutters "Maybe I should've started with that."

    His dream was pretty funny too. Has he secretly been fantasizing about Roslin?

    It's all part of what makes this Baltar so much better than the original. The old one was the stereotypical 50s sci-fi or comic book arch-villain. The new one is brilliant intellectually but deeply flawed in his character and morals. He's got the backbone of a jellyfish. It's good to have these little bits of humor without breaking the sense of drama and dread of the show. More reasons why I thought this episode worked so well.
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  • Avatar of trackstarbuck

    trackstarbuck

    [47]Oct 29, 2006
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    I see the future. KARA/GAETA! lol! but seriously... it could happen.
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  • Avatar of StelingMB

    StelingMB

    [48]Oct 29, 2006
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    trackstarbuck wrote:
    I see the future. KARA/GAETA! lol! but seriously... it could happen.


    Track...no...man, Gaeta would be the girl in that relationship!!!

    Baltars scenes in this ep were creepy yet amusing, I kep getting a "Rocky Horror Picture Show" feeling from them. And Baltar was the Susan Sarandon character. Wayyy out of his element and seriously freaked out!!!
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [49]Oct 29, 2006
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    Don't put poor Gaeta down. I have a lot more respect and interest in the character after this episode. He's never really done that much before. At least he hasn't been an important part of the drama. I was surprised at the power of the story with his character. I was getting a little upset with Kara at the end. She was kicking Gaeta and trying to get him to grovel in utter humiliation when he was really the person who saved her life. Yeah, she had a rough time but so did Tigh. Even he didn't kick around a tied-up human prisoner.

    I also found Tom Zarek's character of interest for the first time. I thought he was a little boring before this episode. He was always making grandiose political statements at the same time that he was plotting to stab people in the back. Always the same thing. Though he is still devious, I think he honestly thought he was helping Roslin out.

    The look on his face after Roslin's speech was telling. He admitted (nonverbally) that Roslin was right and that he was wrong. That's a sign of development for him. He was a self-righteous crusader before. He never thought he could be wrong about anything. He was the person who convinced Baltar to push for settlement on New Caprica as a way to win the presidential election. Power was more important to him than the safety of the human race.

    He made two gigantic mistakes as either VP or president: New Caprica and the Circle. Now he finally understands that he doesn't have all the answers, even in the political arena where he sees himself as an expert.
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  • Avatar of StelingMB

    StelingMB

    [50]Oct 29, 2006
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    It DID sound like I was coming down on Gaeta...that wasn't meant to be the tone. I'm not amazingly fond of the guy, but I do appreciate him. Actually, he's the sorta guy I'd hang out with in real life, so I guess I do like him HEHE...I do think what he did to help the resistance showed great courage and integrity and he ought to be given a commendation...

     ...as for Starbuck's behaviour, it was out of line! But completely understandable...I'm not defending her, but I wouldn't hold it againt her. I'm a little shocked with Anders though, he almost seems to be under the impression that everything should be heading 'back to normal' in their relationship. Man...what a season so far...like I've said before the eps are just too short. As the credits roll I'm sitting there thinking I just got into this...and now it's over..??!!! Hopefully they'll surprise us with one or two 90 minutes eps. this Season!

    Shame we don't 24 episode Seasons like they did when I was little...

    Edited on 10/29/2006 9:22pm
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  • Avatar of garinungkadol

    garinungkadol

    [51]Oct 30, 2006
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    I'm so glad that the Circle didn't kill Gaeta. Perhaps in the beginning they could console themselves that what they were doing was right but the fact that they convicted Gaeta without evidence just points to their lack of impartiality.

    Good, hard-hitting episode.
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  • Avatar of DrLar

    DrLar

    [52]Oct 30, 2006
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    Darn Kara, she just lost her man, and for what? revenge? blood thirst? that's a baddie, she was one of my favorites, I guess the cylon psycho mumble-jumble got to her..

    I wonder what the Sixes will do to Baltar? but someone clarify this to me: all of the sixes love Baltar? or just one of them or what's going on? and which one visited him?
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    MrControversial

    [53]Oct 30, 2006
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    Any chance we see Jammer again?  Meaning that he is a cylon.
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  • Avatar of DarqAli

    DarqAli

    [54]Oct 30, 2006
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    I doubt we'll see Jammer again.

    Jammer was in a Webisode, where a cylon asked him to join the NC Police force. In a room of subtle tones, the only real color was the bottle of juice {glowing a pink/red}. The cylon {crs on the name, one of the male models} told Jammer about human/cylon cooperation, how the juice was made from veggies or fruit on a human/cylon co-op farm.

    A point was made as the vantage point of the camera changed, that the level in the juice bottle changed. Jammer drank {some of} the juice.

    I half-wondered if something in the juice would affect him, but concluded it was symbolic. He drank some; he "bought into" the cylons' reasoning, that joining the NC Police would help the humans, that joining was to do good. And that is what Jammer wanted, to do good, to make a positive difference.

    He "bought the line"; he "drank the Kool-Aide". And as a result, he died. [Like the followers of Jim Jones, who followed an evil man blindly, and in the end, he ordered them to drink poisoned Kool-Aide, and hundreds did, and died.]

    Now, we have to consider: Jammer told the Chief, honestly, that he was in over his head. This, before the Rescue began; and not as a confessed member of the NC Police, but generically, he said, "some of those guys are in over their heads ..........." The Chief responded that when the Occupation was over, people would "string those guys up", and he himself, and Jammer, would be making the ropes tight.

    Now, Jammer never INTENDED to betray his people. He was shown as horrified by what he was made to do. He did let Kally go; if intentions mattered, he was not one who wanted to betray, nor joined because he wanted power, or any of the negavtive reasons people sometimes do such things.

    It came out that he helped Kally, but it wasn't enough. He was killed anyway.

    Jammer was confused by his options during the occupation. Duck joined up too, but was open that he did so as a means of some form of sabatoge, gaining inside information, something to help the Resistance; and of course, eventually, became a suicide bomber and gave up his life to the Resistance.

    Jammer is no less dead, but his motives were no less positive. He was young, confused by the situation, wanted to make things better, and thought that maybe cooperation was the best way to do that.

    His is an example to think about. Death is final. Killing Jammer won't restore life to the others who died. He was very sorry for what happened, but he never intended it. Sort of like a person who is involved in an auto accident where their vehicle kills people. They never intended it to happen. We do punish people for "vehicular homicide" but don't treat them the same as people who deliberately murder people, and don't give them the death penalty.

    Interesting too: Jammer offered the evidence that he did some good {saving Kally} but it wasn't accepted, believed, or treated as a mitigating factor. Gaeta offered no defense; only because he had tried to explain to Starbuck earlier, and that SHE spoke up, saved him. And if he HAD attempted to explain, would any have listened?

    The Circle SAID they were holding "trials", and not just seeking revenge. Yet, when they came to Gaeta, they immediately agreed they actually had NO EVIDENCE against him, but promptly convicted him anyway. Shoving people out of airlocks in self-righteous anger may be very satisfying, but they were not at all successful at seperating the sheep from the goats.

    But as for Jammer being a cylon? I don't see it. He was a young and confused human, who did the wrong thing for the right reason. And paid with his life. The show does not tell you what to think about that: Was his sentence "justice", or not? You are intended to think about it, but the value judgement is yours to make, and some viewers will see it one way, some another.

    If you are thinking about it at all, the writers got their point across.
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  • Avatar of Durbola

    Durbola

    [55]Oct 30, 2006
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    Posts 39 & 49 both make excellent points and the power of the episode is shown in the vast discussion that it has spawned. The writers on BSG are unsurpassed with their ability to create an audience that bemoans decisions of characters, because of the connection that the audience has developed with the characters, while understanding the reasons behind the character's decisions. To create this duality is difficult and enriches the storylines that emerge immensely.

    As for the reintegration of Gaeta into the fold, it should be relatively easy on a professional level because of his expertise; however, the social element will take longer as the Chief's apparent acceptance of Gaeta (illustrated by sitting at his table) will not be widely known amongst the fleet and it may not be until the Truth and Reconciliation commitee deals with Gaeta that the suspicion surrounding him will be dispelled. In the interim their may be further confrontations that continue to occur amongst the crew/fleet and Gaeta, perhaps even after his role is revealed since human paranoia and hatred will never be completely allayed.

    Wow another great post by DarqAli....just a few more points.

    Zarek's actions matched his character and the logic of his actions (insigating the tribunal, Circle of Six) are undeniably.  To Zarek the idea of pardons never occured because it would leave open wounds to fester and perhaps explode with great ferocity in the future. I'll make no mention of Jammer because I do not believe I could possibly improve on the points DarqAli just made.  As for Gaeta again, his actions at the end of episode make perfect sense since his outburst trying to explain to Kara in the mess hall failed to sway her and seeing her amongst the Circle of Six at the airlock made him believe that this information had been known by the group and he had been found guilty (as they stated) in lieu of his assistance.  Thus he saw the group as vigilantes, although they stated they were authorized by the president, and thus their primary purpose was revenge.  Instead of gratifying them by begging, confessing his sins, and pleading for leniency Gaeta knew that he had done his best to aid the resistance and thus willing to accept the fate that awaited him.  Thankfully Kara's bloodlust resulted in the revelation that enabled the Chief to save Gaeta.
    Edited on 10/30/2006 9:43am
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  • Avatar of HumHo

    HumHo

    [56]Oct 30, 2006
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    Very disturbing and thought provoking episode. This is why I love BSG as it dares to tread the limits and deal with real human issues. Even though some of us may not appreciate the stance and views of some of the characters, that would be evidence that the show is pushing all the right buttons. Here are some of my intial thoughts...

    1. Jammer lacked criminal intent in the destruction of the twenty-three or so people at the temple. To punish him soley for that action alone is unjust. At best, he is guilty of unintentional killing of a human being. If however, the punishment was for more than the death of twenty-three, the Circle would have had to demonstrate that Jammer being some sort of vege-cop was actual collaboration. Although he may have not strapped a bomb to his chest, Jammer did join the police force because he felt he had no other choice; and it is within this context he attempted to aid the resistance - very much like Gaeta - as evidenced by him setting Kali free and his statement of how he helped lots of people. . Therefore, his actions are distinguishable from that of someone like Ellen's. Ellen actually gave the enemy vital information willfully and deliberately - this is actual collaboration.

    2. Some comments have been made about the airlock and its use on the Cylons. And this has been used to justify what the Circle is doing. This is a poor argument. The primary reason being is that Cylons are NOT humans. Assuming that BSG laws resemble anything like that of our society, then one would have to conclude that putting a Cylon into the airlock is an altogether different matter than putting another human being. When one "kills" a Cylon - this is not murder because murder by its very definition requires the victim to be a human being. Although one could kill a dog, legally one could never murder a dog, or a toaster for that matter. Therefore the actions the Circle are taking outside the sactions of established law and order are in fact murder and distinguishable from the act of Roselyn killing the toaster.

    3. If anyone deserves the death penalty of treason, it would unequivocably have to be Gaius Baltar, the ultimate traitor of the human race - TWICE!

    Flame away...  

    Edited on 10/30/2006 10:07am
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  • Avatar of DarqAli

    DarqAli

    [57]Oct 30, 2006
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    Oh, good point - I had not thought about it that way: Why Gaeta didn't speak on his own behalf.

    He had spoken to Starbuck earlier in the mess, and she was there among the Circle. So he had to assume his defenses were known to all and rejected by all.
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    pashao

    [58]Oct 30, 2006
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    Some excellent points and views have been raised in previous posts and I agree with this a great episode. My only regret is that Thrace is back and she’s gonna be meaner than ever. I kinda liked the glimpses we got of the loved up softer side of Kara. Now that she’s dumped Anders I feel all hells gonna break loose. Her actions towards Gaeta were only the tip of the iceberg, I fear. When she was laying into the poor guy I thought “oh no she’s back”. I was never very fond of the wild child Starbuck. Someone give her some Prozac please.
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    signalfire_WI

    [59]Oct 30, 2006
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    Excellent episode and kudos to the writers...

    Trying to get life back to normal (if normal was the last vestiges of the human race cluttered onto ships) will be the next big challenge.

    I am waiting for the episode where we see Kat, Starbuck and Apollo try and figure out who's CAG, who's in charge and who really is the best stick in the fleet (now a little more whittled down)... Of course Starbuck and Apollo in a room together should be interesting...
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  • Avatar of mehitable

    mehitable

    [60]Oct 30, 2006
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    Chief's my fave character. At first, the unjust killing of Jammer threw me for a loop. Now, I think that the spicing up of the Chief is interesting. Two thumbs up on the episode.
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