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Discussion - "Daybreak, Pt. 2 & 3" (3/20/09) (spoilers)

How would you rate this episode?

  • Avatar of Daxx00004

    Daxx00004

    [201]Mar 22, 2009
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    my1sunshine wrote:
    By the way, who else loved or noticed the Hitchcock-ian Ron Moore appearance at the end? I was surprised, I only saw one person mention it. And since the introduction of the "All Along The Watchtower" storyline, I have loonged to hear Hendrix's version (the most famous one) on an episode, and apparently so did Ron.. who I happen to know is a die-hard Hendrix fan. Both moves, along with the " It doesn't like that name" line were a very classy way to end the show, bookending it perfectly.

    I did notice him reading the article about Hera (mitochondrial eve) I think of it as him showing his motivation to write the show the way he did. Literally coming full circle.
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  • Avatar of kbluebig

    kbluebig

    [202]Mar 22, 2009
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    Too many posts for me to read all of them so not sure if anyone mentioned this... but there is gonna be a DVD/TV movie called The Plan. It will show the timeframe right before and during the caprica attack but from the Cylon's point of view. So the remaining questions should be answered with that movie. Coming out in June. Check IMDB for more details.

    Yes at the end that was head or vision or angel (whatever you want to call them) Baltar and Six. To me this further confirms that they actually are living entities, most likely software based Cylons. But I did get chills when head Baltar said, "You know he doesn't like being called God."

    That makes me think that the Cylon God was not just from some blind religious belief but was an actual real live Cylon or person. And it was controlling ALL the shots. Basically to get to the point where all the humans and all the cylons are now gone and the only ones left are offsprings of the only human/cylon hybrid, Hera. So this Cylon God helped the final five resurrect during the war on original Earth after they died there. It showed them the way back to the 12 colonies. It wanted the Cylon/human war to stop and it wanted Cylons to become skinjobs so they can have offsprings with humans. But "The plan" fell thru when Cavil decided to have a hissy-fit and rebel. The Cylon God put that song or code in the final five so they can one day awake and continue the Cylon God's plan. And the rest is what we saw. That is my take anyway.

    Pretty sure the Cylon God had something to do with Starbuck's ghost or whatever she was. I still have not guess to how she just disappeared at the end. She was not a vision angel like Baltar and six. She interacted with people and touched things. I guess the The Plan movie will answer that.

    I think the way the dead pilot fired the nukes was cheezy. It would have been better if they made that pilot barely alive and then she willingly launched them. Instead of just her dead hand happening to falling on the launch button EXACTLY when the ship was facing the right vector direction. WHAT ARE THE ODDS !!!

    And the scene when the new metal Cylons were actually fighting the old metal Cylons ?!?!? I LOVED IT. IT WAS TOO SHORT !!!!

    The whole point of the series, specifically the last season was "It has happened before and it will happen again". The ending showed Adama and the rest of the surviving humans and Cylons ending that cycle. Found a new world, technologically backwards. They launch all their technology into the Sun and they freed the metal Cylons from slavery and giving them their own base ship to do whatever. That was INCREDIBLY risky to do because those metal Cylons may start the cycle again but just the fact they were FREED ends the cycle in my opinion. Even the Cylons among their own, treated metal Cylons like objects and slaves. No one ever actually acknowledged there existence and set them free. That was part of the cycle.

    And did anyone notice the significance of Cavil killing himself ? Cylons are suppose to be hard coded to not commit suicide, I think. And of all the Cylons to break their programming, their code, its Cavil, The one Cylon who does NOT want to evolve beyond his programming. I thought that was interesting.

    That is pretty much my take on the series finale. And P.S. Tory deserved what she got.

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  • Avatar of Endgame65

    Endgame65

    [203]Mar 22, 2009
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    It was crap. First two seasons were the best with a few decent episodes in season three, but overall I was disappointed. They completely ruined the show with this last season. It was really a sad ending to what should have been an epic ending.
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  • Avatar of august29

    august29

    [204]Mar 22, 2009
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    This is the first time I saw such a long commentaries from yes and nay sayers. By those commentary, These proved it was truly a great series. I'm glad I was there at the beginning and I' glad to reach a definite conclusion. Fact is, I laughed at how some of the nay sayers are pointing out the short comings of the plots but, hey its a tv world. Despite the sense in their argument, I just enjoyed the whole ride without being too serious at these and that point of the story.IF BSG was that bad, those nay sayers wouldn't have stuck and watch the ending like the rest of us.

    To me, Battlestar Galatica has, been most part, shows how both Humans and cylons are prone in rebelling and making bad decision. Along with each results, we were shown both good or bad. Whether we regret or not given a chance to regret,the series showcased a very human side in all our failings and short sightedness.

    Again Bravo!

    Edited on 03/22/2009 9:38pm
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  • Avatar of Drewligarchy

    Drewligarchy

    [205]Mar 22, 2009
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    While I think that Battlestar Galactica was a fantastic character driven drama, I think it potentially had the ability to be transcendental in terms of the overall themes covered - but in this regard - I think it came up short. It was good but not great. I just felt it was lacking something.

    I compare this to the whole of literature, film and art I've been exposed to. If a piece has that something - you know it - and don't need to fish around for it at all. It's a thought or an idea that ultimately changes the way you think, or change the way you live. I have had that feeling before, and I felt like I might get there with this show. In fact, I almost expected to - and this is why I think some of the others who didn't like the way it ended feel so burned. After seeing the finale, I just didn't.

    In terms of the good, yhe highlight of the whole series for me was the story of Gaius Baltar. I felt he was clearly the protaganist of the piece, as he was the character to undergo a complete and fundemental change. The fact that this change was tied to the ultimate succcess of the final mission, the saving of Hera, and the survival of the fleet - I felt - was done very well.

    My problem wasn't with a particular plot hole or the use of god, or that starbuck disappeared, or that Head Six and Head Baltar were angels. While it's true that a more creative explanation of some of these mysteries could have allowed for a greater platform to convey a grander message - what it ultimately came down to for me was the ideas they were trying to convey were just not that compelling. I didn't feel that the overall message of the entire story was especially poignant if it is limited to: a cycle, a higher force, and technology being a means to our destruction.

    It is what it is. It's really hard to be able to accomplish in the medium of television. Within the context of the medium, I thought they excelled - it just didn't click with me on that higher, transcendental level like some other works have.

    If it did for you, that's great. For me, I'll be continuing the search ...

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  • Avatar of guyroy1971

    guyroy1971

    [206]Mar 22, 2009
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    I wanted to add something new to the debate, and I have read several interviews from Eick and Moore online about the finale and wanted to share them, as they are literally "out off the horses mounth" Ron Moore admitted that the ultimate resolution of Starbuck left him saying "people are going to be pissed". lol He compared her to a christ like figure, resurrected and real, but something else as well. (in the new testiment, christ would appear and dissapear after being resurrected). They deliberately left what she was exactly as ambiguous. He stated they DID (emphasis added) consider giving an explanation of what she was exactly, but the explanations were not satisfying and it was more entertaining to let viewers draw their own interpretation.

    Head six and head baltar are agents of a higher power, but he admitted they can be either angels or demons, since they sometimes urged the real Baltar to do some questionable things.

    Moore actually talked to some of the detrators who like their sci-fi as "hard", as in wanting a scientific explanation for everything. He stated they would be dissapointed, but he was staying true to the show and what it was about, and the show had a strong religous angle, and he wanted to keep that in the finale. It was also revealed Cavil killing himself was Dean Stockwell's idea, as he said something like once he lost Hera and he knew he lost, he checked out. Moore originally did not write him to kill himself, but liked the idea.

    He also admitted that the editing could have been better about the colony being destroyed. It was their intention that the nukes sent them into the black hole and the whole "evil" cylons were killed. He admitted the final cut left that to interpretation and implied that was a frak up on their part. Also, Aama may have talked to others after building his cabin, and joked Aaron Douglas told him maybe Tyrol calls him and says, we need you in Scotland..lol

    You guys can look up the interviews ifyou want to know more, but the point is the writers did know what they were doing, and the choices they made were intentional. They knew some people would be pissed, but that was their vision and they saw it through. I hope that even if some don't like the finale, they can stop with the they don't know what they are doing. He seemed well aware of the objections, but for whatever artisitic reasons they had, they went the way they did. If you didn't like it, thats your opinion, but they knew people wouldn't like the religion in the finale, but after talking alot about the final, they felt this was the most interesting story and they went with it.

    Finally, my opinion only, is that some people start with the premise a deus ex machina is inherently wrong. By definition, any explanation that is explained by god (or higher power) is by definition a deus ex machina. Its a circular argument. If you don't like religion, then you won't like a deus ex machina ending, but many authors including Steven King employ it all the time. In King's best book "The Stand" god literally turn on the nuke in Las Vegas killing Randall Flagg (satan for those who never read it) The protagonists merely had to get it there, even though they didn't know that. Everyone still thinks the book is one of his best. Does this sound familiar with the opera house symbolism in our show, you betcha.

    The more I think about the ending, even though plotwise the critics do have points, the characters and their journey was well done, so I still love the ending.

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  • Avatar of Drewligarchy

    Drewligarchy

    [207]Mar 22, 2009
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    guyroy1971 wrote:

    Finally, my opinion only, is that some people start with the premise a deus ex machina is inherently wrong. By definition, any explanation that is explained by god (or higher power) is by definition a deus ex machina. Its a circular argument. If you don't like religion, then you won't like a deus ex machina ending, but many authors including Steven King employ it all the time. In King's best book "The Stand" god literally turn on the nuke in Las Vegas killing Randall Flagg (satan for those who never read it) The protagonists merely had to get it there, even though they didn't know that. Everyone still thinks the book is one of his best. Does this sound familiar with the opera house symbolism in our show, you betcha.

    The more I think about the ending, even though plotwise the critics do have points, the characters and their journey was well done, so I still love the ending.



    Deus ex machina doesn't necessarily to the employment of God as a plot device, but instead any particular plot contrivance that works outside of the internal logic and go beyond the characters of a narrative.

    For other examples, check out this wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina) article which provides a number of other contemporary examples such as The Andromeda Strain - when the virus spontaneously mutates - and Newheart and Dallas - where the entire narrative is explained by a dream.

    Thus, God isn't necessary for a Deus ex machina plot device, but is usually the most convenient option - being essentially all powerfu l...
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  • Avatar of chestrix

    chestrix

    [208]Mar 23, 2009
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    So, the last part, 150,000 years later, if Hera is the mitochondrial eve, does that mean all the present day humans descended from her? if yes, what about the other survivors of Galactica - there must be some offsprings from them? And what about the primitive humans, did their descendents survive?
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  • Avatar of Omnia87

    Omnia87

    [209]Mar 23, 2009
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    chestrix wrote:
    So, the last part, 150,000 years later, if Hera is the mitochondrial eve, does that mean all the present day humans descended from her? if yes, what about the other survivors of Galactica - there must be some offsprings from them? And what about the primitive humans, did their descendents survive?


    Don't try to make sense out of it man. "It's the characters stupid", plot didn't matter to RDM anymore.

    Now I know the true meaning of the phrase: "all of this has happenede before, and all of it will happen again".

    It means that BSG will keep being remade because it'll never be as good as it was capable of being.
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    sourabhshetty

    [210]Mar 23, 2009
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    Racetrack finger hit the launch button as just before they died, Racetrack and Scullz(i think) decided to go into the fight weapons hot. Their nukes were ready to launch and they were ready to fire, their hand was close to the launch button.

    Tyrol killing Tori was one of my favourite parts, she expected it. When she was scared to put her hand into that liquid, and she was babbling about forgiveness, I had forgotten that she killed Cally.

    I think that this episode was good and whatever disappointment we feel is because some of the previous episodes like The Oath were much much better.

    It was a great show and would have been more successful on another channel as Sci-Fi is a channel with a limited reach. I had to watch Season 1-3 on DVD as it didn't air at all in India and watched Season 4 on hulu when I moved to the US. After like 3-4 years, they should have reruns on popular channels.
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  • Avatar of seantuck

    seantuck

    [212]Mar 23, 2009
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    Don't know if this has been posted or not but this is an interview with Ron Moore about the finale and why they did what they did.

    http://www.tvguide.com/News/Battlestar-Galacticas-Ron-1004256.aspx?

    So after watching the finale I wasn't totally satisfied like I thought I would be....I had hyped this episode up soooooooooo much in my head that I was expecting way to much out of it. With that being said, after reading through comments here and in other places and just thinking about it myself I think it was a great finale! I don't think I had a dry eye the whole time I watched it. I can't wait for the dvds to come out so I watch it again.

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  • Avatar of wiliamdeb51

    wiliamdeb51

    [213]Mar 23, 2009
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    i know what you mean i didnt whant to wacht the last episodes because it would mean the end voor bsg.
    but i did wacht them and it was a great episode (long finale)and i am coing to mis it thats for sure,but whit this ending the pain was lesser dan when ooops olmost told you
    my advice is see the last episodes en judge for your self
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  • Avatar of atreides_pl

    atreides_pl

    [214]Mar 23, 2009
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    I'm not going to elaborate on this - simply it is best sci-ci series finale ever !
    I regret it is already over...

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  • Avatar of kbluebig

    kbluebig

    [215]Mar 23, 2009
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    I agree that the last battle could have been more epic with a much larger scope. Look at the size of that Cylon central base ship compared to the galactica. It was HUGE. But all we saw were really small hallways.

    I blame the budget. If the budget was bigger. I am sure the battle scene would have been grander. But people that are complaining about the finale, they did not get the point of BSG. Short of how the Cylon baseship got nuked and what happened to Starbuck, I think the finale is a perfect ending to the greatest show of all time. But I do agree the first 2 seasons were much much better than the last 2. I mainly like the last season because questions were answered.

    And after reading some of the earlier posts, I have NO IDEA why people are turning this thread into the writers using "Intelligent Design" and God fixing everything and blah blah blah. As I said earlier, I think the Cylon God is a real person or Cylon, possibly software based thats only purpose was to stop the cycle of war between cylons and humans. Pretty sure the movie, "The Plan" will tell us if I am full of it or dead on. At least I hope I am right because if the Cylon God is suppose to be a deity, I will be PISSED.

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  • Avatar of ebony_kunoichi

    ebony_kunoichi

    [216]Mar 23, 2009
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    O.K.

    The ending was good all up until the end. I have many questions that many people don't realized have not been answered:

    Who is "god"? Ship of lights? Celestial beings? I have a feeling that there was an original race that started it all but I hate ambigious endings.

    What the Frak was Kara? How could they see her?

    How did Kara's ship get to earth anyway? We saw that it blew up in front of lee?

    What happened that caused the colonies to split in the first place? it has always been vague.

    Why did the Cylons refer to the Lords of Kobol as false gods? How did they know? Who were they really?

    Who was the jealous god they speak of?

    when did the cylons start to worshipping one god and why?

    How did the scrolls of Pythia perdict everything? Who was Pythia anyway!?!?

    What happened to Dianna the #3?

    I agree about the Leoban comment. He was all wrapped up in the mysteries and they kinda dropped that at the end.

    Bill and Laura was done perfectly. I felt for Lee, he has lost 4 women in his life. It was great to see Caprica and Baltar together and I really felt their scene at the end was the most touching. Especially when he told Caprica that he knows about farming and cried a little. That really got to me!! I think Baltar has come full circle. From farm boy to scientist and back to farm boy. It was like he reclaimed his humanity and tried to so hard to deny his roots and now he will help humanity with his knowledge of farming. Just perfect! My perdiction was correct I knew in the end we would be the decendants of cylons and human. Ellen and tigh was a good send off too.

    I also find it hard to believe that humanity just accepted the roll back of technology, but those that know history can attest that there are those that believe that technology we know as today was also used thousand of years ago. It would explain how mythical cities like Atlantis evolved. Or babel or egypt and the pyramids. They were very advanced civilizations so maybe a bit of new technology crept up.

    Edited on 03/23/2009 7:35am
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  • Avatar of Hungry_Homer111

    Hungry_Homer111

    [217]Mar 23, 2009
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    This is, in part, a reply to the last two posts (assuming nobody posts before I finish typing this, then it's a response to kbluebig and ebony kunoichi), and part just a general opinion of the whole "God" element of the episode.

    I think that it's great that they handled it the way that they did. You basically have two very conflicting aspects to the debate within this episode. On one hand, there is a God, who has been orchestrating everything from the very beginning of the series, maybe even before (?). This being the most prominant of the two sides within the episode, I'm not surprised some people didn't really pick up on the other side of it (I'll admit that I was one of those people at first).

    First of all, the flashbacks were a nice contradiction of this by showing that these people are who they are, and not all their actions are dictated by God. Also the fact that these people we've been seeing are supposed to be people that humans believed to be gods (Apollo and Hera?), and through the "All this has happened before..." theme, we're left to assume that the "gods of Kobol" are similar, and that is how they knew what was going to happen (the scriptures). And finally, the "God" that was orchestrating things was call an "it," and "doesn't like being called that." So it's hinted that "God" might be a superior creature, like these characters were to those primitive humans, but it's left ambiguous to leave it up to the imagination.

    As for the ambiguous nature of God's true nature and purpous, I understand why some people may hate it being left like that, and admit that I felt the same for a little while at first, and some may think it's lazy (and hell, I may still agree to a degree despite not agreeing that it's bad) but now that I think about it, I can't see it being any other way. We, as humans, ask about the same thing. Is the really a God? What exactly is God, if it exists? We have people similar to some of the characters on the show, some blindly accepting it, like Roslin when she asked Kara to find Appolo's Arrow in "Kobol's Last Gleaming." We have people who will completely dismiss it, like Adama (his speach a couple episodes ago when asked by Kara, Tigh, and Ellen to get Hera, he says he's sick of all that nonsense). And then we have various in betweens, like people who only accept when they see proof of it (Gaius), etc. I honestly am glad that they left it ambiguous like that, because any explanation would feel cheap to me, and might feel too preachy ("There is a God, Hallelujah!," or "There is no God, you religious fools!"). Instead, we're left trying to answer the same questions we do in real life, but with more information (at least in terms of the story).

    Edited on 03/23/2009 8:44am
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  • Avatar of chestrix

    chestrix

    [218]Mar 23, 2009
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    heh, just rewatched the Racetrack portion of the finale. It looked like they armed the weapons but was killed in the initial attack, and the raptor just floated around. Then there was the cease-fire and work began with the 5 cylons. Then the fight begins again, and at that point, an asteroid hits the floating raptor and causes Racetrack's hand to fire the weapon. Is that what happened, and was the timing right? seriously?
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  • Avatar of kbluebig

    kbluebig

    [219]Mar 23, 2009
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    Hungry_Homer111's quote:

    "As for the ambiguous nature of God's true nature and purpous, I understand why some people may hate it being left like that...I honestly am glad that they left it ambiguous like that, because any explanation would feel cheap to me, and might feel too preachy ("There is a God, Hallelujah!," or "There is no God, you religious fools!"). Instead, we're left trying to answer the same questions we do in real life, but with more information?"

    I purposely did NOT want to compare the show's Cylon God to people's real life belief in a higher force. I truly do believe that the Cylon God in the show is a real person or Cylon that orchestrated the events that lead to Hera being the mother of all humanity on earth. That is just my thoughts of the show and NOT real life.

    There is alot of evidence supporting this in the show but the biggest is at the end when vision Baltar asys, "He does not like being called God." But if the movie The Plan, does not explain it like that, meaning they say that it was really some higher force or God that intervened then I will lose all respect for this show. It makes no sense that they would right the ending of the series saying God did it. The belief in the Cylon God was a huge aspect of the show but actually saying the Cylon God was really a god or Thee God goes against what the show did these last 6 years. That is why it only makes sense the the Cylon God is a real Cylon or person or maybe a group.

    P.S. I am thinking the The Cylon God is really Windows Vista, pissed off at everyone for bashing it for being craptastic.

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  • Avatar of guyroy1971

    guyroy1971

    [220]Mar 23, 2009
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    ebony_kunoichi wrote:

    O.K.

    The ending was good all up until the end. I have many questions that many people don't realized have not been answered:

    Who is "god"? Ship of lights? Celestial beings? I have a feeling that there was an original race that started it all but I hate ambigious endings.

    What the Frak was Kara? How could they see her?

    How did Kara's ship get to earth anyway? We saw that it blew up in front of lee?

    What happened that caused the colonies to split in the first place? it has always been vague.

    Why did the Cylons refer to the Lords of Kobol as false gods? How did they know? Who were they really?

    Who was the jealous god they speak of?

    when did the cylons start to worshipping one god and why?

    How did the scrolls of Pythia perdict everything? Who was Pythia anyway!?!?

    What happened to Dianna the #3?

    I agree about the Leoban comment. He was all wrapped up in the mysteries and they kinda dropped that at the end.

    Bill and Laura was done perfectly. I felt for Lee, he has lost 4 women in his life. It was great to see Caprica and Baltar together and I really felt their scene at the end was the most touching. Especially when he told Caprica that he knows about farming and cried a little. That really got to me!! I think Baltar has come full circle. From farm boy to scientist and back to farm boy. It was like he reclaimed his humanity and tried to so hard to deny his roots and now he will help humanity with his knowledge of farming. Just perfect! My perdiction was correct I knew in the end we would be the decendants of cylons and human. Ellen and tigh was a good send off too.

    I also find it hard to believe that humanity just accepted the roll back of technology, but those that know history can attest that there are those that believe that technology we know as today was also used thousand of years ago. It would explain how mythical cities like Atlantis evolved. Or babel or egypt and the pyramids. They were very advanced civilizations so maybe a bit of new technology crept up.



    I try to answer your questions so you can rest easy..lol

    1. Tne ship of lights was from the original. It was never mentioned on this show. The nature of god is ambigous. Baltar said it is a force of nature. We are the once that create good and evil.

    2. Kara was real and not in everyone's head. Ronald Moore stated she was like the first coming of a messiah (like Jesus) she was real and then disspeared once she fulfilled her destine. As to what exactly she was, he stated they thought about giving a definate explanation, but he didn't like what they came up with and decided to make it amibiguous instead.

    3. God put it on the first Earth so they could find it and see the thirteenth tribe was cylon and destroyed themselves too. (Some people didn't like this explanation, but that was it) Her new viper was by the same god with her new corporeal body.

    4. The original colonist went one way to found the colonies and the cylons went the other to found earth. The humans also created cylons on Kobol (actually one of the questions answered quite well and even the detractors of the final don't seem to have a problem with this one.)

    5. We have no idea what the lords of Kobol were. I assume it had no bearing on this story so they never went into it. The cylons denouced them because the believed in their one true cylon god.

    6. I forget this, but the cylons were probably referring to their own one true god. In our christian religion, god in the old testiment is also forbids the worshiping of other gods.

    7. Never really explained but it is assumed the writer did that to set up the dichotomy between the colonists polytheism and the cylons monotheism.

    8. Again, not really explained in this series as it was really not needed to be explained to advance the plot. The scrolls told of earth, which is why they looked for it and why Adama used it to give the fleet hope. It was really the only use for it in this series.

    9. This was explained but some did not like it. She stayed on the first Earth as she lost hope and stated she did not want to spend her days in space hiding from Cavil. She basically committed a form a suicide, like Dee when they found the nuked earth. She had no idea the colonist would find a new home, so she was in the end premature with her hopelessness.

    Hope that helps!
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