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Discussion - "Daybreak, Pt. 2 & 3" (3/20/09) (spoilers)

How would you rate this episode?

  • Avatar of alllstarz

    alllstarz

    [41]Mar 20, 2009
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    When the raptor launched 8 missiles at the colony and they had to jump ASAP.

    Is anyone else watching the "spacecast" panel discussion it is absolute trash ahah i feel its like the "hills after show" Kara HAS to be an angel it is the only theory that fits really and yes its a bold statement But only became this "angel" when she was brought back. As for all the "pre destiny" information she had well daniel was her father, and probably passed that information along to Kara. With the melody who knows, I'm at a loss of words really. It is cool how it all interrelates BUT Anders did bring up the whole speech about perfection about mathematical equations etc, maybe that song is a perfect mathematical formula!
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  • Avatar of guyroy1971

    guyroy1971

    [42]Mar 20, 2009
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    eros777 wrote:
    i understand the poetry behind the episode and the finale of the series, but it left me very unsatisfied as a viewer. to many un answered questions (though im glad tory got what was coming for her). but over all it wasn't the ending i wanted.

    It actually answered everything, it just didn't spell it out. Head Baltar and six are angels, and so was Kara. Tyrol went off after killing Tory. Rosalyn died with Adama by her side, he is building a cabin. Tigh and Ellen went with a group of survivors. Lee will explore. Helo and Athena have their daughter. Baltar and six are back together. Kara fulfilled her part and dissapeared. What is missing? perfect ending!

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    alllstarz

    [43]Mar 20, 2009
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    [/QUOTE]

    What is missing? perfect ending!

    [/QUOTE]

    I think people can't grasp the simplicity of it cause the WHOLE series it was always complex and answers to questions never were straight forward!

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  • Avatar of h00plah

    h00plah

    [44]Mar 20, 2009
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    alllstarz wrote:

    What is missing? perfect ending!

    I think people can't grasp the simplicity of it cause the WHOLE series it was always complex and answers to questions never were straight forward!

    [/QUOTE] That's just about the best way to put it. After reading through this thread and thinking back to the episode, I've realized that it's absolutely complete. I've also realized that for the first time in five years, there is no more waiting for a new episode to air, no more breaks, no more questions. Everything is done with, and the ending was perfect. If I wouldn't have posted here, or browsed this thread, I would have been fairly lost before watching the finale again. But now that I've lurked and posted a few times in the last hour, I've finally realized how much better the finale was.

    I remember now when the Colony was nuked at the last minute by the idle raptor getting hit by a small fragment of a rock. For some reason that scene left my mind for awhile because of everything else that happened in the last two hours of the series. For some reason, I feel that there are more questions to be answered ... for some reason I want it to be this way, I want there to be more twists and turns everywhere, more space battles, more Battlestar Galactica. But it's over now, and it's not coming back. Now, what we'll all have to do is start riots in order to prevent another reboot from happening, because there is one that is being discussed. A full-lenght motion picture that will try to re-imagine Battlestar Galactica once more, but in the process, the series will be forever butchered. But that can come later, of course.

    Bring on "The Plan", and "Caprica". That's all there is to look forward to, but with no anticipation, because there is no more answers, no more questions, everything is done with, and all that the prequel movie and series will do is add a little bit more to the entire story, but right now, I'm satisfied with what I have. Also, they never quite explained what the cylons "planned". Were they planning to merge with the human race, settle down and breed a new line of half-cylons and half-human beings? Because they did so, and after 150,000 years, the humans decided that they wanted to create yet another series of robots, so in theory, this is all happening again. They were created by man, they rebelled. They look and feel human, so on and so on, and they have a plan. Now, many of the models have reached the end of their line, resurrection is close to impossible, and perhaps one day, in the future, we will create robots/androids that will rebel on us, so we're the ones that determine if this cycle happens again. (It's fun to consider, isn't it.) So we have three origin stories. Religion, Science and Battlestar Galactica.

    EDIT: What happened to Tyroll, Tigh and Ellen? I mean, they're basically immortal, so isn't it more than possible that they're still living amongst the humans? That should have been cleared up, but it's not really necessary. It would have been a nice touch.

    Edited on 03/20/2009 9:00pm
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  • Avatar of guyroy1971

    guyroy1971

    [45]Mar 20, 2009
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    yes I agree. It is the end. They answered everything very simply. Hopefully "Lost" is taking notes.
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    guyroy1971

    [46]Mar 20, 2009
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    yes, that was their little political statement at the end. We have to be careful with creating intelligent life. The "plan" was killing the humans, and I believe that is what the movie will be about. I assume it will be ok, but all the questions were answered.
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    h00plah

    [48]Mar 20, 2009
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    supermikeyD wrote:
    kokonut1971 wrote:
    I am sad that the show has ended. The last show was good but there are way too many unresolved plotholes that are still nagging me...

    like who was Kara? really?

    Why was Hera that important and how did she come up with the FTL solution? where did she get it?

    Why was Kara playing the song on the piano...

    Some stuff like that going unanswered leaves me unfullfilled...

    The end was too convenient in some way and it feels you end up nowhere and wonder why you even watched the series...like i said you are left unfufilled because of too many unanswered question.


    This is exactly how I feel to me the last 4 eps were just a down right waste. They could have done so much with the story. How come This Ending Sucked is not a option to select on the poll. So many things left out. like how can bailtar see 6 or vice versa. And don't give me that crap about kara being a angel. Let me guess everbody drunk the special kool aid and now they can talk and touch ANNNNDDD interact with angels and this goes for every body. This episode Sucked point blank. What ever happend to the whole kara is going to lead her people to there end. Looks like there having a big cumbiah on earth. Oh and then this Kara/Angel pulls a ninja move in the end wtf. But wait angels do have ninja powers so why the heck didn't she just use those powers and save everybody. Oh and what a way to kill cavil oh but wait no one killed him he kills him self. All that talk about becoming a machine and then when he gets to the bridge and Gaius Baltar starts his preaching (I'll say it for you BULL S#$%)and he forgives everybody. This ep was lame all the way around. The creators dropped the ball on this one.

    Oh and when do angels fly ships brand spanking new ones at that.


    Believe whatever you want to believe, but this finale was flawless. You seem to be trying so hard to find something wrong with the show itself, what I really recommend you at least TRY to do is sit back, and relax, because there was nothing wrong with this episode. People believe in Angels, and we all have our guardian angels. Baltar had six, Six had baltar. Everyone had Kara. The prophecy in which Kara Thrace will lead them all to their end, merely meant that Kara Thrace, in spirit, would guide the human race to where they want to be, where they need to be. Their home, Earth. Hoping for an all-out destructive ending in which the entire human race is obliterated is something extremely stupid to have hoped for. Why would they come all of this way (the writers and everyone else who made the show), only to kill off every single character? I mean, what's the point?

    Rewatch the last four episodes, and just enjoy them as they are. You'll realize that if you don't specifically look for flaws, then you won't find any.
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    martymcflyjb

    [49]Mar 20, 2009
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    I haven't read the thread yet, but this was a phenomenal ending. I would go so far as to say the best episode of television ever created. We got answers to all our questions, some a little ambiguous, others more exact, but all fulfilling. We got an action packed climax, fitting ends to some bad and kinda bad characters, and a poignant denoument that closed the stories of all our beloved characters. There were so many moments where I gasped at the brilliance of Ron Moore's writing. I cried several times. Absolutely magnificent.
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  • Avatar of Hoeech

    Hoeech

    [50]Mar 20, 2009
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    h00plah wrote:
    Absolutely fantastic finish to the series. It simply couldn't have been any better, but the ending made absolutely no sense. Baltar survived 150,000 years? Or was he a cylon all along?


    The visions of Caprica Six that Baltar had been having and the visions of Baltar that Caprica Six had been having were angels or some other kind of agents for "God". They had been guiding both of them so that humans and cylons could finally find the planet that they would call home together and hopefully build a civilization that wouldn't eventually destroy itself. Unfortunately, all this has happened before and will happen again.
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    supermikeyD

    [51]Mar 20, 2009
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    h00plah wrote:
    supermikeyD wrote:
    kokonut1971 wrote:
    I am sad that the show has ended. The last show was good but there are way too many unresolved plotholes that are still nagging me...

    like who was Kara? really?

    Why was Hera that important and how did she come up with the FTL solution? where did she get it?

    Why was Kara playing the song on the piano...

    Some stuff like that going unanswered leaves me unfullfilled...

    The end was too convenient in some way and it feels you end up nowhere and wonder why you even watched the series...like i said you are left unfufilled because of too many unanswered question.


    This is exactly how I feel to me the last 4 eps were just a down right waste. They could have done so much with the story. How come This Ending Sucked is not a option to select on the poll. So many things left out. like how can bailtar see 6 or vice versa. And don't give me that crap about kara being a angel. Let me guess everbody drunk the special kool aid and now they can talk and touch ANNNNDDD interact with angels and this goes for every body. This episode Sucked point blank. What ever happend to the whole kara is going to lead her people to there end. Looks like there having a big cumbiah on earth. Oh and then this Kara/Angel pulls a ninja move in the end wtf. But wait angels do have ninja powers so why the heck didn't she just use those powers and save everybody. Oh and what a way to kill cavil oh but wait no one killed him he kills him self. All that talk about becoming a machine and then when he gets to the bridge and Gaius Baltar starts his preaching (I'll say it for you BULL S#$%)and he forgives everybody. This ep was lame all the way around. The creators dropped the ball on this one.

    Oh and when do angels fly ships brand spanking new ones at that.


    Believe whatever you want to believe, but this finale was flawless. You seem to be trying so hard to find something wrong with the show itself, what I really recommend you at least TRY to do is sit back, and relax, because there was nothing wrong with this episode. People believe in Angels, and we all have our guardian angels. Baltar had six, Six had baltar. Everyone had Kara. The prophecy in which Kara Thrace will lead them all to their end, merely meant that Kara Thrace, in spirit, would guide the human race to where they want to be, where they need to be. Their home, Earth. Hoping for an all-out destructive ending in which the entire human race is obliterated is something extremely stupid to have hoped for. Why would they come all of this way (the writers and everyone else who made the show), only to kill off every single character? I mean, what's the point?

    Rewatch the last four episodes, and just enjoy them as they are. You'll realize that if you don't specifically look for flaws, then you won't find any.


    I'm not downing the whole series the last 4 eps realy went down hil. I'm not looking for anything bad I'm simply stating the facts. How can every body see and interact with the angel when you have people that do not believe in god on the ship. This ep really sucked story wise but I guess you can say it was good for some characters. I am not looking for something bad in the ending I'm simply stating what we know about the show and what the ending left us hanging with. Angels my A## come on man I know you guys cant feel all satisfied.
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  • Avatar of Hoeech

    Hoeech

    [52]Mar 20, 2009
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    MajLorne wrote:
    h00plah wrote:
    Absolutely fantastic finish to the series. It simply couldn't have been any better, but the ending made absolutely no sense. Baltar survived 150,000 years? Or was he a cylon all along?
    That was head Baltar and head caprica giving us [the viewers] their take on humanity in the far future [our present].


    These were not cylons, head ones or otherwise. They were agents of "God". Whether you want to call them angels or avatars, they were only visible to whomever they wanted and guided Gaius and Caprica Six to unite cylons and humans in a new society that was supposed to get along without war and conflict. 150 000 years later, we're back to our old tricks. Ah, well....
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  • Avatar of Hoeech

    Hoeech

    [53]Mar 20, 2009
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    h00plah wrote:
    When exactly did the cylon colony get nuked? When did I miss this? Also, the likeliness of the centurions returning is fairly high, but we'll be the first ones to know if they come back, when we see a damaged base star in the orbit of our planet, we're all dead.


    Just before Racetrack was killed, she and her crew armed the nukes on their raptor. During the fight, the drifting raptor was hit by an asteroid which caused Racetrack's hand to hit the missle release control. They streaked over to the colony and blew it the frak up. It was while the detonations were going off that Starbuck made the last jump which brought them to their new home.

    As for the centurions with the damaged base ship, why would they come back to kill them? They were the ones who freed the centurions and gave them their own destiny. Not to mention that the people on the surface (half of whom are Cylons themselves) are of no threat whatsoever since all of their hardware was sailed into the sun.
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  • Avatar of eros777

    eros777

    [54]Mar 20, 2009
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    guyroy1971 wrote:

    eros777 wrote:
    i understand the poetry behind the episode and the finale of the series, but it left me very unsatisfied as a viewer. to many un answered questions (though im glad tory got what was coming for her). but over all it wasn't the ending i wanted.

    It actually answered everything, it just didn't spell it out. Head Baltar and six are angels, and so was Kara. Tyrol went off after killing Tory. Rosalyn died with Adama by her side, he is building a cabin. Tigh and Ellen went with a group of survivors. Lee will explore. Helo and Athena have their daughter. Baltar and six are back together. Kara fulfilled her part and dissapeared. What is missing? perfect ending!

    i still didnt like the ending. its not what i had hoped for. to each there own i guess.
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    Crestfull

    [55]Mar 20, 2009
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    wow all i can say (almost all i can say) is WOW for the stunning conclusion of a great series. Though I am laughing at the fact sooo many people seem to have had a problem with the agents of God/Fate embodied in Baltar, Six and Thrace and the I guess the 'rules' they should have followed. I mean come on we are talking about avatars sent by a Being that manipulated so many individuals like toys I think the idea that this being can bend the law of reality after everything we've seen isn't that far out an idea.

    And though people have taken a liking to calling them angels lets not forget that they only never called themselves that but that also the Being "Doesn't like being called that [God]" in this case God being a Being of Good. As Gaius said I'd like to think for the series God was neither Good nor Evil and that his agents similar, that they were only catalysts of change and destiny

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    antilifecu

    [56]Mar 20, 2009
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    I would like to know how Baltar survived the explotion in Caprica when the Sylons nuked it. We clearly saw how the whole appartment blowed to pieces and I do not think Caprica Six could protect Baltar with her body after a nuclear blast. I understand that Caprica Six resurrected but Baltar?
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    alllstarz

    [57]Mar 20, 2009
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    h00plah wrote:
    alllstarz wrote:

    What is missing? perfect ending!

    I think people can't grasp the simplicity of it cause the WHOLE series it was always complex and answers to questions never were straight forward!

    Bring on "The Plan", and "Caprica". That's all there is to look forward to, but with no anticipation, because there is no more answers, no more questions, everything is done with, and all that the prequel movie and series will do is add a little bit more to the entire story, but right now, I'm satisfied with what I have. Also, they never quite explained what the cylons "planned". Were they planning to merge with the human race, settle down and breed a new line of half-cylons and half-human beings? Because they did so, and after 150,000 years, t

    EDIT: What happened to Tyroll, Tigh and Ellen? I mean, they're basically immortal, so isn't it more than possible that they're still living amongst the humans? That should have been cleared up, but it's not really necessary. It would have been a nice touch.

    [/QUOTE] The thing that will be difficult for people to grasp is that it is a STANDALONE show from BSG. In the sense it is a completely new series taking on new ideas with new characters within the same universe. Seems a lot of misconceptions going around. Secondly, as for "the plan" it talks about events PRIOR to the attack on the 12 colonies Will it answer some of these questions yes I am sure it will. as for what about tyroll, tigh and ellen I think they died. Their means of survival was the resurrection ship. So maybe they got into an accident and couldn't be "fixed" or maybe they just died But then same thing can be said about having all the random 6,8,,2 etc there should still be a stockpile of them left. But I think cavil was adament on getting the "ressurection" technology back becuase they can break down over time. Also Batlar survived the blast on Caprica becuase it was just the shockwave, and persumely to set up the story line 6 can take a beating (apparently can still stand after a shockwave of a nuke)

    But I'd say I'm more dissapointed with Leoban's role if any ( and yes im being picky) I mean all throughout the series he has the foresight and past knowledge, knows Kara's has a destiny, can predict and understand there were powers at be manipulating and working behind the scenes, YET for the second half of 4.5 He was NO WHERE to be found or offer ANY insight same with D'anna. Granted they are minor characters Leoban should at least has some forsight or words of wisdom to add in but the last striking image i have of him is him running away from Kara's "dead body".

    I also enjoyed the wrap ups.

    Looking back remember how Adama and Roslin were like fire and ice and seeing them end together was a nice touch

    Poor Boomer trying to find herself going back and forth but finally doing what is right and repaying that debt shows she has "come full circle"

    Tyroll being that loveable blue collar worker till a strangling pissed off final 5 cylon (he had every right too)

    Tigh ohh loveable tigh he has really shined since he realsed he was a cylon his character development jumped by leaps and bounds compared to the hard press

    alcoholic X.O (I feel tigh and tyroll sort of did the switch-a-roo)

    Lee i missed old fight jock CAG Lee BUT he did what he could but still wished they incorperated him more instead of making him mainly a minor character (4.0)

    Starbuck She was pheonminal but then in (4.0) she had no character per say it didnt bother me but it was an extreme from what we are used to and then in (4.5) she becomes that old Kara thrace in her eyes while saying bye to lee and Sam

    Even Adam was a tight ass ran a close watch and later became less pesamistic and started warming up to religous and philisophical condentation.

    I think Moore said it best when "The show is not about the Plot its about the CHARACTERS"

    Edited on 03/20/2009 10:34pm
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    isaiias

    [58]Mar 21, 2009
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    Maybe I missed acouple of episodes, but can somebody tell me what happenedto all the cylons in that were in Caprica when Sanders was fighting for the resistance. Even thou the planet was nuked it seemed that the planet could still sustain life.
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    123home123

    [59]Mar 21, 2009
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    I refuse to call this "Daybreak". Instead, I will refer to it as "Ronald Moore's Masterpiece". What an achievement! We had the action on a fantastic scale in the first half of the two-parter and exquisite poetry in the second half. I'm glad that they didn't come to another truce with Cavil and his horde. That would have seemed too tidy.

    As that scene was going on, I kind of thought it was a bit too cute, to have another alliance with the Cylons and everyone would go walking down the forest path arm in arm. But then Galen found out about Tory and Cally and the airlock. That was Ronald Moore toying with us, giving us a taste of a typical trite resolution and then blowing everything up in our faces. Awesome way to tie in Tory's murder of Cally into the overall story. I didn't really understand why Tory was so central in the Tyrol-Cally story but in hindsight, it was a masterstroke to weave those two threads together like that.

    The Cylon Colony was absolutely surreal. The design concepts and the special visual effects were astounding. Can we say Emmy nomination here? If the visual effects team doesn't get an Emmy award for this episode, then there is something truly wrong. And if Ronald Moore doesn't get another writing nomination, then there is even more injustice in Hollywood.

    As for the significance of Hera's drawing and the FTL coordinates, it actually makes literal sense. As someone who spent a lot of time in school studying music theory, I immediately recognized that the numbers correspond to the notes of the secondary theme from Bear McCreary's version of "All Along the Watchtower". It's the part that Kara played on the piano with Slick a couple episodes ago. It's in a minor key. If you number the notes in the scale beginning with 1 and continuing up to 7, then you have the format used in the translation. Each number corresponds to the note used in the theme. For those familiar with music notation, suppose the theme was played in the key of C minor (to make it easier to explain). 1 corresponds to the note of C. 2 equals D. 3 equals E-flat and so on. Thus, if you transcribe the theme using these numbers, you get the 1123.6536.5321 code that Kara punched into the FTL computer (leaving out the trill in the theme). It's kind of nifty that they did this. I'm guessing that they consulted Bear on this since I don't think either Ronald Moore or David Eick has a formal music background.

    The second part was so peaceful to watch. The pacing and tone of the episode matched that of the characters. They were weary of the turmoil, the flight from the Cylons, the civil strife and internal political conflicts so it makes sense that they wanted to leave everything behind and start over. BSG is a very demanding series to watch in the sense that it evokes a lot of political, philosophical and religious themes. It gives your heart and mind a workout. After 5 1/2 years, it was comforting to see that the characters finally found peace, even if there was the cautionary ending about events on our "Earth" 150,000 years later.

    The series finale also confirmed what I have long suspected -- that Battlestar Galactica is at its heart a religious show. Not necessarily a Christian or Buddhist or whatever show, but one that examines religion and philosophy with an earnest approach. It's kind of strange, that a show that includes so much violence, sex, drug use and conflict can be so religious. But it's refreshing. It makes the exploration of religion more realistic. Sanitized parables may be good to explain key principles and morals but something like BSG shows how these principles can apply (or not) in real-life situations, and very harsh ones at that. Though the characters are often flawed, many of the key figures try to think their way through difficult situations. They don't just pick up a grenade launcher or press the button to launch missiles like a mindless action-movie character would.

    From a visual perspective, I was very impressed with the outdoor shots in the last scenes. In previous episodes, it was usually apparent that any outdoor scenes were shot at the same locations that other Vancouver-based productions used. Planets on Stargate SG-1, for example, had vegetation and foliage that was awfully similar to what we saw on BSG. But I'm guessing that there aren't any large herds of antelopes in the exurbs of Vancouver. While I'm on this point, this episode needs to get another Emmy nomination in the category of cinematography, if there is such a category. Very impressive camera and location work!

    But what really made this series finale shine is Ronald Moore's script and the way he resolved all of the mysteries and story threads of the series. The flashbacks to the Opera House visions was effective. We got answers about Kara's identity and even about Head Six and Head Baltar. How many fans have been wondering about Head Six since the Miniseries? I'm guessing most of us. And even with all of the intellectual philosophy and religious exploration, Ronald Moore managed to create a thrilling finale and an emotionally powerful one. I can't imagine how he could have ended the series more effectively. And I can't think of many single episodes in any series that worked as well as "Daybreak" did. Er, oops, I meant to say "Ronald Moore's Masterpiece", because I am not going to call it "Daybreak" any more.

    Truly a monumental accomplishment in science-fiction history and a remarkable achievement for dramatic storytelling in general, whether in television, movie or book format. Sad as I am to see the series wrap up, I'm satisfied that it ended with all creative guns blazing. Thanks to the producers, writers, actors, visual effects teams, composer, musicians and crew for making such an enjoyable adult work of fiction, one that is far more satisfying than the typical escapist television fare.
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    SupremeLegate

    [60]Mar 21, 2009
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    h00plah wrote:
    [QUOTE="alllstarz]What happened to Tyroll, Tigh and Ellen? I mean, they're basically immortal, so isn't it more than possible that they're still living amongst the humans? That should have been cleared up, but it's not really necessary. It would have been a nice touch.

    They were not immortal; they left their Earth for the colony, since they did not have FTL they had to travel to near the speed of light. As a result of this 2,000 years pasted in the universe while only a few pasted for them on their ship.

    Does that make since?

    As for the episode; I think this has to be the best series finally I have ever seen. Yeah I am sad to see it go, especially since good TV is so hard to find, but at the same time I the ending was perfect.

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