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Discussion - "Daybreak, Pt. 2 & 3" (3/20/09) (spoilers)

How would you rate this episode?

  • Avatar of therealcromar

    therealcromar

    [81]Mar 21, 2009
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    I liked the last scene and loved everything up until the commercial break when they found Earth. I especially loved the "truce" switcheroo and Cavil taking himself out. Unfortunately, I hated the rest, and here's why.

    The worst problem was the absolute lack of logic. Adama saying goodbye to Lee was mind boggling. Why would Lee think he wasn't coming back? Why wouldn't Adama come back? Why would he say "I'm not long for this world" when that's obviously not remotely true? I was afraid he was gonna go fly into the sun! It could have been a simple scene: "Lee, I'm gonna go chill with your step mom until she dies, I'll see you in a bit". The shot of Adama on the cliff next to Laura's grave was wonderful, however. Actually, all of the photography on Earth was excellent, but my problems are plot related, not the production, so let me get back on track.

    Even less logically sound than Adama wigging out is the idea that 38k human survivors are supposed to just agree to abandon technology and go caveman. I thought Lee was high when he said that. Yeah, I can definitely see wanting to get out of the tin cans. I can see a tortured soul like Tyroll wanting to go live in the mountains for awhile. But the majority of civilization would not want to become the Amish. They would land the ships and have them ready in case they were needed in an emergency, or they would turn them into building materials. They might not build huge cities but they would build quasi-modern living conditions - things like, you know, plumbing! Water treatment facilities! Hospitals, communication, government! 37.5k people at least would laugh at the plan. The few that might like it would change their minds after a few weeks of crapping outdoors. This was the worst thing about the ending for me, by far.

    Kara winding up as an angel is a copout but it's acceptable, I guess. I don't like the inconsistency, though. Head Six and Head Baltar are guides who provide information that couldn't be gleamed any other way. That's fine. Kara, however, directly affects real people and objects. She does not exist in anyone's head. Then again, they had that Six early on - Season 1 I think? - who just vanished. My memory might be a little rusty there. I am not too mad about Kara, just rolling my eyes a bit at RDM taking the lazy way out of her complex story. Having her vanish mid conversation, Batman style, was annoying, but minor. The whole thing just reeked of writers painting themselves into a corner.

    I wasn't a fan of the opera house resolution. It was alright, but it could have been a million times better. For a long time it was the central mystery of the show, then dropped, then brought back. OK, so Roslin is guided by the visions to protect Hera from Cavil, and Baltar and Caprica are guided to bring her to the CIC. I get it. They didn't steal her in the visions, they rescued her. But why all the visions? Why are the angels' plans so complicated? For a, logistically, incredibly minor event, why do these angels feel the need to protect and guide Baltar and Caprica all the way to that point? All they were guided to do was grab the girl and walk her to the CIC.

    I'm glad that my predicted idea didn't come true - that most of the cast would die and Baltar would lead the remaining humans to earth - but this is still pretty lame. Both the Kara and angels/visions situations resulted in the lazy way out of a complicated problem. It's the natural result of the writers making things up as they go along, including deep mysteries with no planned solution. Don't give me that crap that they had it planned all along either - there's plenty of evidence from interviews and podcasts, not to mention the overall sloppy and inconsistent structure over the yeras, that there was no planning at all going into these mysteries.

    I'm surprised that a show this dark went with a happy ending. I am not mad about this. It plays against expectations, which is good. Unfortunately the execution was incredibly sloppy. I'm glad they didn't give us a cop out ending with Laura. It was emotional, satisfying and logical. I'm a little mad that they completely gave up on the "dying leader" and "harbinger of death" threads. Of all the mystical things in this show, those were the most intriguing to me. I guess Pythia and the hybrids were wrong.

    I give everything up to and including the first shot of Earth a 9.5/10, and everything after a 3. The extra points are for the final ending in the future, and the excellent photography, mainly Adama's last shot. That shot was good enough that I can, almost, pretend to forget the conversation with Lee before it.

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  • Avatar of Eric10301

    Eric10301

    [82]Mar 21, 2009
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    Eh I guess I'm in the minority in saying this finale left me rather unfulfilled. I still wish we had seen what happened to the original cylon centurions that rebelled on Earth 1.0. I also felt it extremely unlikely for an advanced race to just send all their ships hurtling towards the sun and everyone be ok with it. Cavil killing himself was just stupid, someone who thought of himself as the be all end all shooting them self is dumb. The pera house scese was just terrible, the writers backed themselves into a corner on that one and "hacked" thier way out with a machete. I will say I loved the neck snapping but that was about it.
    Edited on 03/21/2009 1:36am
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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [83]Mar 21, 2009
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    Lord079 wrote:
    Ps- yes I dont get that they didnt explain where the rest of the 'evil' cylons went (for example in the previous episode the scout raptor reported watching 2.... that 2 base ships jumping in and out of the base ops).


    Their colony was completely destroyed. It was sitting perfectly in one area of an event horizon where it could not be destroyed. The nukes set it off course, and was consumed by the black hole. As for all those other basestars, without resurrection they eventually grow old and disappear. The human cylons will die, and the mechanic ones may fine liberty, and join up with the liberated centurion.
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  • Avatar of MichaelDracon

    MichaelDracon

    [84]Mar 21, 2009
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    dragon755 wrote:
    Did anyone else realise that galen went to live on modern day england...galen and england...shoulda picked that from the start haha


    The mention of 'Highlands' made that very clear. So what is Kara? I think Kara is dead, and has been for at least a season. One more hint was given by the last line Sam said: "See you on the other side."

    So what was it that replaced Kara? I don't know. And I think it is best left that way.


    The ending was perfect. I had suspected we'd see our Earth at the end for some time. RDM hinted the earlier Earth we saw was Earth to the characters. The 'not to us part' can easily be added on there.

    I love how Hera was found again 'today'. And with all the nods to robots, who knows what will happen. And there is still a bunch of Cylons out there roaming free on a (repaired, I noticed) Baseship. Who knows what happened to them after 150,000 years.
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  • Avatar of Volvi_01

    Volvi_01

    [85]Mar 21, 2009
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    Well what can I say? I expected more or better to be honest. It left me feeling Hi and Dry. Sure there were some good bits but as a final? Should have been alot more especially the "Wow" factor. Ser.4 wasnt up to previous standards, it lost some of its magic and so was best to finalise. I still love the whole series it was special, more intelligent then all the Roddenbury stuff.

    But Id have to say especially comparing "Sleeping In Light" of Babylon 5 to BSG's final, I was far more emotional and choked with B5. B5 in my books still rate No.1 but BSG a close 2nd.

    "We are the Universe made manifest in order to understand itself"

    "and so it begins".......ermm ends.

    Over and out.

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  • Avatar of Billkup

    Billkup

    [86]Mar 21, 2009
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    i really enjoyed the finale. the huge battle, them discovering "our earth". moore chose not to fully reveal certain aspects, most prominent example kara thrace and the power behind her manipulating the events. but you have to to look at the subtle details, head baltar and head six were not angels, either was "god" the one who sent them. remember how head baltar interrupts head six "you know HE doenst like to be called that way" when she was referring to him as "god"."he" is not the monotheistic almighty god, "he" is some sort of higher evolved being with an interest in both humans and cylons. i guess you can compare him to the "prophets" aka "wormhole beings" from deep space nine who were sending emissaries in order to influence a humanoid population on a planet near by (a show written mostly by....you guess....ron moore).i dont know why "he" wasnt fully introduced in the series, maybe this will happen in the tv movie, but its not surprising that moore didnt reveal everything.

    in the beginning i disliked the idea of them abandoning civilization, but then again, why did most of the colonists have names which belong to our mythology? because in ron moores vision they were the models for the gods and half-gods from our legends, who lived in fancy citys and palaces above the sky and remote places. they didnt abandon civilization, in his vision they probably were the ones creating the mythic ancient civilizations like atlantis, lemuria etc etc. you can find in legends all over the planet. they didnt become cavemen, they created new civilizations, which vanished thru time.

    but i guess u have to criticize ron moore for not emphasising those ideas and facts strong enough. you cant expect that everyone takes interest in mythology, and without that interest/knowledge you cant connect certain dots and i can understand the frustration of some users.

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  • Avatar of trip31

    trip31

    [87]Mar 21, 2009
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    dragon755 wrote:
    btw, im not complaining. Great ending to a great show! but... who was the dying leader that was not meant to make it? Just wondering more than anything


    It is unclear, technically Laura should not have made it since Hera's blood saved her the first time. Or it could have been Ander's (leap of faith here) since he was integral in Galactica surviving the final battle

    As for Kara did her "death" release her of the 'harbinger of death' tag or could her leading the colonials to Earth and abandoning their spacecraft lead to the end of the last of mankind given the closing scenes?
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  • Avatar of tone_01

    tone_01

    [88]Mar 21, 2009
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    Concluding a complex and labyrinthine show presents huge challenges. The Producers face their own demons, the (sometimes) rabid fans, the network, et. al in wrapping it up.

    I feel BSG's run was just about right. Though previous seasons offered filler shows, the last season many times lowered the usually crisp and thought provoking canon into High School dramatics. To have prolonged the agony would have further cheapened one of TV's best dramas. Which is where I feel it ended.

    That said, and based on the rating, I am disappointed. Correlating the span of humanity's history to a Bob Dylan penned ballad is unsatisfying. It's cheap and lazy in the same way others use films within films to state their viewpoint instead of baring their own souls. (Think of films or TV shows plugging in a clip from another movie (or music) to make a point.)

    The choice was a good one, for "All Along The Watchtower" is based on Isaiah 21, Verses 5-9:

    "Prepare the table, watch in the watchtower, eat, drink: arise ye princes, and prepare the shield./For thus hath the Lord said unto me, Go set a watchman, let him declare what he seeth./And he saw a chariot with a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, and a chariot of camels; and he hearkened diligently with such heed./...And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, with a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground."

    Dylan wrote the song during a crisis (a serious motorcycle accident) causing a violent change in his life and career. Perhaps he suffered a spiritual crisis as well.

    Conversely, I found the Ep did present a few wonderful moments, and I wasn't thrown by the ambiguity - Starbuck's mysterious nature. (Okay, she's a supernatural being, as, evidently, are Gaius and 6.) Life isn't always clear.

    Roslin's death was touching, as were the character's send offs.

    I really dug the show's inherent nihilism, however, shaking the cycle of violence in our faces with such ferverence caused the message, through Dylan, to be delivered with tongue somewhat in cheek. BSG will remain close to my heart, but the finale didn't, as I hoped, touch my soul.

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  • Avatar of guyroy1971

    guyroy1971

    [89]Mar 21, 2009
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    I loved the final, but understand some of the complaints. The humans giving up technology was a stretch, I agree, but it fit with this being "our" earth, as we don't have the technology now. Remembe, Lamkin asked this, and Adama stated something like people want a clean slate. So they did try to answer that objection. Remember, technology brought them all suffering. Lee stated their heads and creating what's poosible without their souls catching up is what created the cylons, who destroyed them. They new to "break the cycle" required them giving up technology. If they didn't they would create cylons again.

    And also, posters are right, Ronald Moore stated on many occasions there was no big blueprint and they made it up as they went along. This may dissapoint some, but that is just about 99% of television. It is open ended because they do not know how many seasons they have. It is up to the audience, the network and ratings. It is wasted effort to make up five years of storylines if the network cancels a show after one season. All television writers concentrate on making each show they have the best possible and hope for a future.

    There are real world reasons for sudden changes and the writers have to deal with them as best they can. Katee Sackoff's character was killed, in part because she got a part in "Bionic Woman" a network show with (probably) much better money. (it was also created by David Eick, btw) It was cancelled and she wanted to come back and they brought her back by making her an angel, or supernatual being, or whatever you want to interpret it as. The final five were made up because they reference3d twelve models and Moore wanted to answer whywe never saw them. The real life reason is they would have to hire more actors to play them, create new parts, etc.. so they made existing characters the final five. Shows are organic that way.

    That being said, they did a remarkable job trying to tie all these storylines up into a coherent whole. It may have been imperfect, but it was a great send off given that the stories were made up over four seasons and they were resolved. There was no loose ends and every character got a send off and they tied it all up as completely as they could.

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  • Avatar of Darkness1234

    Darkness1234

    [90]Mar 21, 2009
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    I really liked this episode. They tied up nearly all loose ends. The planet they found they called it "Earth" which is cool, and it showed Human evolution 150,000 years ago I am going to guess Hera, being half human and half cyclon has kids (at the end Head 6/Baltar says something about the common ancestor of humans found, that she has a cyclon mother and human father) I wonder what happened to the population of humans that were on Earth when they came, did they breed with them since Baltar said it can be done. What Baltar said is true humans evolving on Earth is astronomical and on Kobal, I think they should have done this (found some hit of ships that were there before they landed) which would mean Humans landed here while back and just regressed instead of evolving on it. Other than this I liked everything else. I liked the fact that humans current time are descended from a Hybrid of Human and Cyclon. I also liked the fact they were 150,000 years in the past and that this has happened before on Kobal humans evolved made cyclons had a war, they all left, Cyclon went to Earth 1, evolved to have children created Centurians had a war only 5 survived left to find the 12 Colonies, but the 12 Colonies in that time created Cyclons, had a war nearly destroyed each other and the Final 5 stopped them.
    All in all this was a very good ending. I liked the whole God thing as well and the Head Baltar saying "He doesn't like being called that"
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  • Avatar of Bionetic

    Bionetic

    [91]Mar 21, 2009
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    guyroy1971 wrote:

    I loved the final, but understand some of the complaints. The humans giving up technology was a stretch, I agree, but it fit with this being "our" earth, as we don't have the technology now. Remembe, Lamkin asked this, and Adama stated something like people want a clean slate. So they did try to answer that objection. Remember, technology brought them all suffering. Lee stated their heads and creating what's poosible without their souls catching up is what created the cylons, who destroyed them. They new to "break the cycle" required them giving up technology. If they didn't they would create cylons again.

    And also, posters are right, Ronald Moore stated on many occasions there was no big blueprint and they made it up as they went along. This may dissapoint some, but that is just about 99% of television. It is open ended because they do not know how many seasons they have. It is up to the audience, the network and ratings. It is wasted effort to make up five years of storylines if the network cancels a show after one season. All television writers concentrate on making each show they have the best possible and hope for a future.

    There are real world reasons for sudden changes and the writers have to deal with them as best they can. Katee Sackoff's character was killed, in part because she got a part in "Bionic Woman" a network show with (probably) much better money. (it was also created by David Eick, btw) It was cancelled and she wanted to come back and they brought her back by making her an angel, or supernatual being, or whatever you want to interpret it as. The final five were made up because they reference3d twelve models and Moore wanted to answer whywe never saw them. The real life reason is they would have to hire more actors to play them, create new parts, etc.. so they made existing characters the final five. Shows are organic that way.

    That being said, they did a remarkable job trying to tie all these storylines up into a coherent whole. It may have been imperfect, but it was a great send off given that the stories were made up over four seasons and they were resolved. There was no loose ends and every character got a send off and they tied it all up as completely as they could.

    You really bring up some great points. I think this last season in general fell short because it seems to me that Moore was dividing his attention between finishing BSG and starting Caprica. His attention may have been divided. I really didn't like the ending. I was really disappointed. I understand the motivations, but the story just didn't live up to my expectations. The previous 4 seasons were so great, but this fifth season kinda ended with a whimper. The show had these potentially great moments that took these twists that were really disappointing. For example, I was really looking forward to seeing Tyrol and Boomer get back together. Something about their romance always made me feel good. To me it was one of the major highlights of the show. Instead they turn Boomer into a a-hole and have her kidnap Hera. Was the plot twist an improvement? No. And more to the point, I loved that they revealed that there is another earth besides apocalyptic earth, but to reveal that it isn't developed and to see them abandon all technology that could usher that type of advancement really rubbed me the wrong way. I also dislike the way everyone went off in these radical directions. Adama is gonna build a log cabin in the middle of no where? He's too old to do something like that. It's more likely he's committing suicide. And Galen is gonna go by himself to the north ice country? I could keep going, but the point is it almost seemed like they were all committing suicide, with the exception of those people with the common sense to remain as part of a tribal group. And what happened to the 'skinjob' rebel Cylons? Worst, Kara is an angel. Really? The dominoes just didn't fall quite right, if you know what I mean? Also, I actually preferred the idea that Red dress Caprica six, in Baltar's head, was a manifestation of his insanity. I'm pretty sure the show was implying that Caprica's and Baltar's hallucinations were actually some sort of psychic transmission from the future. Or maybe they were angels? Originally, the show was written to address post 9-11 concerns. As the political climate changed, the theme of the show should have changed with it. I think the major theme in current affairs is the message of hope the new administration has been trying to sell. To me that would have made for a better theme for the ending of BSG. I honestly like the ending of the original BSG better.
    Edited on 03/21/2009 7:37am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of simpleton7

    simpleton7

    [92]Mar 21, 2009
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    I found the sentiment of the whole piece rang completely hollow, about renewal and cycles, and seemingly at the end about humanity sleepwalking into robot death. A lot of the lines in the second half just made me scream 'why?'

    But the important thing is that it seems to have satisfied the fans, I consider myself very open-minded and generous when it comes to any drama but it didn't satisfy me. But they went somewhere interesting with it and that's more than you can say for a lot of endings.

    I suppose the post-ending story will concern how the cylons evolved, what their current state is in the modern day, make a more interesting development of this 'god' stuff. They could make a little chapter asking if we've 'broken the cycle.' I know it's about the cylon side of the initial story but if they wanted to they could bring that out to a very wide scope.
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    weirdaaron

    [93]Mar 21, 2009
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    I just thought of it, what ever happened to D'Anna? I might have missed something, but she wasn't even in the finale was she?
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    dezigner4web

    [94]Mar 21, 2009
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    I'm a HUGE fan of BSG. I loved the series finale overall.

    BEST MOMENT: There were so many, but my favorite was the moments leading up to Roslin's death and Adama taking off his ring to put it on her finger. *Sob* I cried. Even more tragic was that she died before she could "see" the piece of land he picked out for them. Very sad as that was her dream. *Side note: I noticed her grave marker was in a V shape, thought that was interesting.

    CONFUSING: A little disappointed there was no picking up more on the Daniel character, in which I thought he would factor in again with Cavel's evilness and the finale. I was a little surprised at how easy Cavil gave up Hera for resurrection. He HATED his body, why resurrect forever back into it? I thought part of the need for learning what made up Hera was to procreate and improve on the machine? Idk. Maybe I missed something there. *Side Note: Is there a change the resurrection "spell" was complete before Chief pulled out? I wondered because they said the had the data coming in and then Cavil put a gun to his head.... did he resurrect somewhere?

    CHEESY: The "angel spirits" Six and Baltar. Hmmm. yeah. Nuf said. *Side Note: Did anyone else wonder if the caveman humans died out and we are all begat from Hera? Did anyone else think "Stone Henge, The Pyramids, Corn field patterns and any other unexplained alien pointing reference in our culture is now explained by the BSG crew envading the world with their advancements. Fact they were of another world, hence aliens. Right? Dont even get me started on Greek Mythology.....!!

    SURPISED: My prediction for the end would find the crew entering the Black Hole (time portal) only to portal back in time to find Earth of the past, BC era. Only the same Earth that they found in the future barren, uninhabitable, our Earth, our future plight. But no, they found another planet, and called it Earth I LOVED IT! Another suggestion that their inhabiting the new planet had impact on the future.

    Well done! Wow, what will I watch on Friday nights now? *Sniff*

    Edited on 03/21/2009 8:51am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of dezigner4web

    dezigner4web

    [95]Mar 21, 2009
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    MichaelDracon wrote:
    dragon755 wrote:
    Did anyone else realise that galen went to live on modern day england...galen and england...shoulda picked that from the start haha
    The mention of 'Highlands' made that very clear.

    Can someone explain the significance of this? I knew it was a reference, but missed it.

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    Daxx00004

    [96]Mar 21, 2009
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    I am not sure why so many people are surprised at the religious tone of the finale. BSG has always been spiritual/ Religious. Larson is a mormon and from my readings about the original series he placed a lot of mormon theological references in it.

    RDM's BSG has had the mystical/religious theme running thru it the entire time, I would have been disappointed if he dropped it at the very end and had hard science answers for everything.

    We don't have hard science answers for everything why should they? The cylons/humans coming to earth 150,000 years ago and interbreeding with the early humans makes sense from the fossil record as no true "missing link" was ever found in the fossil record. I could believe that God worked in that way.

    I can see this happening, one of the tribes kidnaps Hera at an older age and they make her a part of their tribe. She becomes the mother of all humanity. A mix of "Earth" humans, Colonial humans and Cylons making her line stronger, smarter and better equipped to survive than any of the other races alone.

    More than likely, at some point disease would attack the colonists and only the offspring of humans that bred with natives would survive. This was what God(who doesn't like that name) wanted all along.

    Edited on 03/21/2009 9:03am
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  • Avatar of Melzias

    Melzias

    [97]Mar 21, 2009
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    The finale was just........perfect. It felt like i was watching an epic cinematic masterpiece, not simply a series finale to a TV Show. This honestly is one of the few series finales i was not dissapointed with.

    And to those complaining about the inclusion of God, and the "angels". It fit perfectly with the storyline, nor should it come as any suprise since it's been hinted/implied at since the miniseries launched.

    Simply an amazing piece of work Ron Moore, my hat is off to you.

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    dezigner4web

    [98]Mar 21, 2009
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    alllstarz wrote:
    But I'd say I'm more dissapointed with Leoban's role if any ( and yes im being picky) I mean all throughout the series he has the foresight and past knowledge, knows Kara's has a destiny, can predict and understand there were powers at be manipulating and working behind the scenes, YET for the second half of 4.5 He was NO WHERE to be found or offer ANY insight same with D'anna. Granted they are minor characters Leoban should at least has some forsight or words of wisdom to add in but the last striking image i have of him is him running away from Kara's "dead body".

    YES! I agree. What an AMAZING character and ending with no contributions for him. I LOVED him, and felt a real chemistry, even somewhat sexual at times with Kara. At one point I thought maybe he was an Angel helping guide Kara's path. But even that kinda played down.

    So much more could have been done with his role.....shame.

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    haldrey

    [99]Mar 21, 2009
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    GOODBYE BSG. As a sci-fi show not one of the best, it had too many errors in the sci-fi department but as a sci-fi/soap opera show the best ever.
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    august29

    [100]Mar 21, 2009
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    Babylon 5 used to be my top spot all time favorite sci-fi. Not anymore. Battlestar Galactica wins all! Perfect ending for me despite the few nay sayers.

    To answer some of those questions the nay sayers have...

    Kara as an angel is not a cop out. She died but somehow crossed the void, returned to guide the fleet to a new earth. Only after fulfilling her task, did she returned to "the other side" . I mean people, how many ghost stories you have heard about people who died and who returned from the dead just to complete an unfinished task? This is just mixing in modern urband legends and weaving it into the story.

    True, Daniel was boxed. But we must also point out Cavil is sadistic enough to put a copy of him on Caprica without the knowledge of who he is. This is precisely what he did to the original five. Who knows, Daniel might have married a human and sired Kara. Daniel's name was mentioned and Kara was seen admiting that the person she was talking to was her father.

    The fleet of ships heading toward the sun. They wanted a new start since technology was blamed for what happened in the colonies. By destroying the ships, any trails those ship could've emit from their flt drives to their engine vapor trails are elimated. Thereby even reducing the chances of enemy cyclons that couldv've survive from finding them.

    To my understanding, the colonials agreed that they all wanted a fresh start without technology. Bare basics.

    Well, thats enough for now. This remake is a two thumbs up series destined to become a cult classic hall of famer!

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