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Discussion - "Daybreak, Pt. 2 & 3" (3/20/09) (spoilers)

How would you rate this episode?

  • Avatar of guidryp

    guidryp

    [101]Mar 21, 2009
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    A bit of a letdown. There was some good stuff, but more questions than answers. But I didn't expect better given the quality of the last two seasons.

    Issues:

    I can't see abandoning technology. Think about it. We wouldn't do it. They wouldn't. It solves nothing, clearly we would just develop it again. Better to keep it and keep records of past mistakes so we don't repeat them. The whole unknown angles, everyone just pawns of them is quite annoying and something of a cop out. The final nuking of the Cylon Colony being an act of the unknown "powers" was Blah. Not to mention them remaining completely shrouded.

    I don't buy anyone with a shred of humanity, permanently isolating themselves alone away from other people. This has been the crux of my problem with the last two season in reaching to tell his huge "message" the characters are bent in ways that don't hold given their history or even basic human nature. It often felt too artsy and preachy to me.

    But still it was better than 90%+ of television these days.

    RIP BSG.

    Edited on 03/21/2009 11:08am
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  • Avatar of QingJao86

    QingJao86

    [102]Mar 21, 2009
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    Wait... it couldn't have been our earth! Our earth neccessates our star patterns, if the first earth had our star patterns how could this earth being like 10,000 light years away have had them. Thats really confusing!
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  • Avatar of anikros

    anikros

    [103]Mar 21, 2009
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    dezigner4web wrote:

    alllstarz wrote:
    But I'd say I'm more dissapointed with Leoban's role if any ( and yes im being picky) I mean all throughout the series he has the foresight and past knowledge, knows Kara's has a destiny, can predict and understand there were powers at be manipulating and working behind the scenes, YET for the second half of 4.5 He was NO WHERE to be found or offer ANY insight same with D'anna. Granted they are minor characters Leoban should at least has some forsight or words of wisdom to add in but the last striking image i have of him is him running away from Kara's "dead body".

    YES! I agree. What an AMAZING character and ending with no contributions for him. I LOVED him, and felt a real chemistry, even somewhat sexual at times with Kara. At one point I thought maybe he was an Angel helping guide Kara's path. But even that kinda played down.

    So much more could have been done with his role.....shame.

    I agree too, i loved the finale, but the whole time i was waiting some Kara/Leoben resolution, maybe it was cut out and we will see the deleted scenes as a dvd extra

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  • Avatar of falderich

    falderich

    [104]Mar 21, 2009
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    A lot of people are having issues with the destruction of technology part. The guy right above says "we wouldn't do it". Of course we wouldn't do it. Then again we haven't spent years running away from it. I think it's a perfectly logical consequence; it's been done before, and more than once (also, since the first time 'Earth' was uttered in BSG one wonders if they are our descendants or ancestors). That's why I'm writing this; I've seen this "let's destroy our technology and start humanity from scratch" before, I just can't remember which show or movie. Help?
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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [105]Mar 21, 2009
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    Daniel is dead, there is no Daniel. Cavil killed him. Get it straight, THERE ARE NO DANIEL. This is comes straight from the producers, and the writer's mouth. We don't need a cult of Daniel out there. There is no Daniel. Kara's father is not Daniel. Daniel died, so obviously there's no way for him to father Kara. Hera is the only Human Cylon hybrid. Cavil is sadistic, but not to the point of torturing Daniel. Cavil likes to tourture the final five, and ending Daniel for good is a way to torture Ellen. I repeat, Daniel is not Kara's Dad. Daniel is dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, DEAD! Enough with the whole Daniel thing!
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  • Avatar of Debml

    Debml

    [106]Mar 21, 2009
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    I was actually sad they destroyed the entire fleet, they could've used it as houses or something, and why did they "erase" techonlogy?, imagine all you could with that!

    I lol'ed at the ending with the little robots, I was like LOL, they think that's advanced, you should've seen what happened 150,000 years ago xD

    It's a shame many people won't watch BSG because they think it's geek...oh God, (sorry for calling you like that lol) they've missing ALOT.

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [107]Mar 21, 2009
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    A couple of comments from other posts:

    -- There were no dinosaurs when early humans were walking around our Earth. They had died out long before.

    -- We'll probably see a lot more of the Daniel story in Caprica.

    -- The Amish are a good example of a people who have intentionally avoided most modern technology. Although it's true that they had not developed advanced technology in the past, their younger members have some exposure to the "outside world". When they become adult members of their church, each one makes a "voluntary" decision to reject the technology of mainstream American society. (I put "voluntary" in quotes because there are significant social costs in rejecting the church for a young Amish individual, including ostracism by family members and friends, and unfamiliarity with the intricacies and landmines of the greater American society.)

    -- Hera as "mitochondrial Eve" is a clever touch because as someone noted below, the "missing link" has never been found. The early humans that Adama and the others saw could have been Neanderthals or some other primitive human. It's thought that "modern" humans replaced Neanderthals, either killing them off, competing better for food sources or interbreeding and combining the two "species" or subspecies. In the BSG version of human development, the Colonials would serve as the true "modern" humans who came to Eurasia out of Africa and replaced the native primitive humans.

    -- The idea of the advanced Colonials arriving on our Earth 150,000 years ago more than hints at Erich Von Daniken's Chariots of the Gods theory, which seemed to have influenced the creation of the original BSG series. That original series, however, got away from that theory by having the "rag tag fleet" arrive at present-day Earth (well, Earth in 1980, which was the present-day back then). Changing the date of arrival to the distant past follows the Von Daniken theory more closely. (For those unfamiliar with the author, he made a big splash in the 1960s and 1970s by claiming that ancient civilizations were visited by advanced beings from other worlds, the so-called "ancient astronauts". He said that the Egyptian pyramids and other massive structures were built by these aliens or with their help. Though very few scientists take his views seriously, his ideas can make for some intriguing science fiction.)

    The Colonials still arrived too early to account for the Egyptian pyramids. They destroyed most of the fleet so they might not have been able to build the Egyptian pyramids (in the BSG timeline). But maybe the descendants of the Colonials and Cylons transferred enough technical knowledge through the centuries to help those ancient civilizations build those mighty structures. Or maybe Angel Six, Angel Baltar or Angel Kara returned to help those civilizations. Just some thoughts on the timeline.

    -- The robotic band seen on the large video screen in modern New York consisted of robots who actually played those instruments. It's the Toyota Robot Quartet Band.
    Edited on 03/21/2009 12:18pm
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  • Avatar of wedgeantilles54

    wedgeantilles54

    [108]Mar 21, 2009
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    dezigner4web wrote:

    MichaelDracon wrote:
    dragon755 wrote:
    Did anyone else realise that galen went to live on modern day england...galen and england...shoulda picked that from the start haha
    The mention of 'Highlands' made that very clear.

    Can someone explain the significance of this? I knew it was a reference, but missed it.

    Its has to do with the Cheif's name and the fact it is galic (sorry if spelled it wrong)
    Also for me the mention of the highlands implied scotland or ireland to me rather than England

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  • Avatar of mialza

    mialza

    [109]Mar 21, 2009
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    I loved this episode. Until it turned out to to be our Earth. I was okay with everything, Kara being an angel, a "happy" ending, ect. I was fine with all of that but I just can't take the abandoning of technology. Their favorite quote is "It has all happened before and will happen again" which is similar to our "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it". The entire second half of the seson was dedicated to breaking the cycle and learning from the past. So what did they do? They abandoned the past, started over, and may have doomed the future of humanity by not teaching about the mistakes of the past. At the end the head Six and Baltar were discussing the evils that have entered our society and the only "hope" Six had was that this time could be the logical exception to the rule that humanity will destroy itself. I just can't except them ignoring the four year lesson of the show, which was acceptance. Human or Cylon it doesn't matter and they should all live in peace. Instead they refused to apply that knowledge in a new society and didn't teach it to their children, and now, of course, history is repeating itself. They should have rebuilt their own society but incorporated what they learned. I think they had actually learned a thing or too about breaking the cycle, and would have lived in peace, or at least improved how they treated each other, but they just threw it all away. The entire point of the show was lost on them, and now their entire experience is meaningless because their descendants didn't learn from the past.
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  • Avatar of Invader_of_53

    Invader_of_53

    [110]Mar 21, 2009
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    I'm main satisfied with this ending, but there are a few things I didn't grasp:

    1) The first Earth had the continental landscape of ours with corresponding constellations. So if the Earth they populate is ours (it certainly has our natural satellite and continents), then... what? How can two planets be identical? I don't understand. I mean, I can grasp astronomical odds of independent evolution of human beings on different planets, but that just doesn't seem right. Did I miss something there?
    2) I can buy Kara being an angelic being of some sort, but what's the deal with her shiny, unvarnished Viper? And it still fails to explain how she died going into the centre of a gas giant with her charred corpse winding up on a celestial island of rock light-years away. I mean, I get how it set things into action, but the logistics of it don't add up.
    3) It's really minor, but it's an excuse to round this out, but if the colony had old school Cylon Centurions (and Raiders), then why were none of them employed or seen up to this point? And on a related note, what was with the ones from "Razor"? I seem to recall that the implication is so as not to get scraped, but then if there more of those Centurions within the general Cylon populace, then why did those steer out on their own course? And I still don't understand the significance of the old Hybrid they were protecting and their seeming deification of it.

    Those quibbles aside, I was in awe and captivated. I felt the whole thing brought a great glimpse at completion to this story while leaving a lingering commentary for our modern society - by actually depicting our actual modern society. Truly a great, final twist.

    One thing I'd like to address is the problem of abandoning technology. Given that it gave them the Cylons and set them on such a hellish course, I think the general consensus would be to remove the temptation to play God(s) again or take retribution. I think this is what happened with the Twelve Colonies abandoning their technology, which given the revelation of the Thirteenth Tribe being Cylon, makes sense. (I also now suspect that the "human sacrifices" spoken of by Six in "Valley of Darkness" were the robotic Cylons there trying to replicate human form, as per the experiments seen in "Razor".) The only flaw, in fact, seems to be that they still have the Raptors and Adama, at least, took his Viper down to Earth. It all comes down to responsibility for their actions.

    The still persistent Daniel theories - I really don't wish to be rude, but people need to please shut the frak up about him already. He was mentioned in one episode and one episode only. And in that episode, he was said to be destroyed. Not boxed, but destroyed. And on top of this, Ron Moore even went out of his way to close the coffin on these theories in his podcast for "Islanded in a Stream of Stars". I cannot believe even after-the-fact, people are still injecting him in postulations. I wish it would just be given a rest.

    I'm glad Tory got what was coming to her. Mainly, I was afraid that the writers were never going to revive that thread, leaving Cally as just another death. I'm glad it was done because not only was it such a senseless murder she committed, but it also shows that Tyrol still loves Cally, clearing up any doubt based on his rant from "Escape Velocity". It was also nice that it had a major repercussion that ultimately proved to be pivotal. I also thought the truce about giving resurrection was kind of a nod to the Pythia line. History repeated itself as it did to end the first Cylon War with the Final Five, but ultimately, this repetition was shattered, giving some hope to humanity's future breaking the hurtful cycle it keeps bringing upon itself.

    Many have taken note of "Baltar" stating that the being guiding things does not prefer the name God, but I'm surprised that many have not noted that he also gender-neutralises it by calling it an, well, "it." I suppose much in the way humanity has created good and evil, it also designated God a gender.

    I also agree with a few that have pointed out Leboen's underwhelming in recent events. I accept that he didn't appear often because, after all, it seems to be apart of his character not to get involved in the actions of the rest of the Cylons, but the strong spirituality that drove him he seemed to have petered out near the end. Then again, finding Kara's body on Earth (One) seemed to have shaken his faith. Baltar's thoughts on God not taking sides or being beyond good and evil is something certain parties could take a lesson from. Sad to know that it hasn't thoroughly reverberated so far.

    I also want to thank 123home123 as these are things that could have mentioned should I have put the thought into it (especially someone's misunderstanding of a dino-human coexistence). I've long been fascinated with the history of the Earth from geological and human evolutionary perspectives and have to admit that I have a soft spot (though still sceptical) about extraterrestrial concepts like the ancient astronaut theories. In fact, there was something on less than a week ago on History Channel (or simply History now; another senseless network name change) that dealt with the tackling of this theory and even mentioned Battlestar Galactica. This show has already raised questions in terms of modern politics; what a wonder to think of it having some kind of impact in anthropology.

    I've often fond of the spiritual aspects of this series, despite being having beliefs that are antithesis to some concepts. Personally, I think works of fiction like this are better at exploring these things than many of the people who wholly embrace any of the various faiths (both collectively or individually developed).

    By the way, I've been fixed on listening to "In the Year 2525" and stared for no real reason. I just bring it up because it's surprisingly relevant to this show, especially it's final lyrics.

    Billkup wrote:
    one quick thought, if they resolve everything tonite, what will the upcoming tv movie be about?


    From what I recall, it will take place from sometime before the events of the miniseries to sometime in Season 1. It's going to be from the Cylons' perspective of events and depict the setting up and implementing of the plan that is mentioned in the opening text of the first two seasons - hence the title: The Plan.

    weirdaaron wrote:
    I just thought of it, what ever happened to D'Anna? I might have missed something, but she wasn't even in the finale was she?


    She decided to stay on Earth - the first one. She says as much to Tigh in the climax of "Sometimes a Great Notion" because the devastation of Earth and the whole spiritual quest she hitched her wagon to turned out to be gump, so she made the decision to stay out of the ensuing mess that would predictably come from going back out into the cold, dark grasp of space and Cavil's militants. Ron Moore confirms it in his podcast for the episode... and pretty much her entire absence since.

    dezigner4web wrote:
    *Side Note: Is there a change the resurrection "spell" was complete before Chief pulled out? I wondered because they said the had the data coming in and then Cavil put a gun to his head.... did he resurrect somewhere?


    Nope. Simon says the download was broken and Doral thinks the whole thing was a trick.

    Daxx00004 wrote:
    The cylons/humans coming to earth 150,000 years ago and interbreeding with the early humans makes sense from the fossil record as no true "missing link" was ever found in the fossil record. I could believe that God worked in that way.


    I find that fascinating when you consider all the debate set up that seemingly pits the idea of God versus the notion of evolution. Wouldn't it blow a lot of those Intelligent Design pushers' minds if such a thing were true?

    wedgeantilles54 wrote:
    Also for me the mention of the highlands implied scotland or ireland to me rather than England

    As did I. Maybe he'll begin practising an Aerelon accent and pass it on...
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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [111]Mar 21, 2009
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    123home123 wrote:

    -- We'll probably see a lot more of the Daniel story in Caprica.


    There will be no Daniel. Daniel was a one shot character that was mentioned. Caprica will not answer any plot holes of this series, it's intended to be a series set 100 years before the first Colonial-Cylon War. Since the final five did not arrive until they were deep into the war, there will be no Daniel. Remember, the humanoid cylons were created by the final five, after they convinced the Centurions to stop the war with the Colonials. Maybe we'll see Daniel in "The Plan" but bear in mind that Daniel is dead. He was mentioned for a few seconds and all of a sudden we're seeing Daniel cults out there. He is dead, he will stay dead, move on. Daniel was only supposed to be used as a way to explain how and why number 8 is number 8, and why Cavil is evil. That's all. It's that straight forward. There's nothing more to it. Daniel is essentially meaningless now. They didn't even cast an actor to play Daniel. There's no need to talk about Daniel anymore. Daniel is dead. Period. Daniel plays a very, very, very, very, very, very, very minor role in the whole BSG mythology. He's not Kara's Dad, he's not anything. He was an impotent, emotional, artistic cylon that Ellen gave more affection to, and made Cavil jealous. I repeat, Daniel is dead, he plays no real roll in this series, they didn't even cast him, which means, there will be no more Daniel. NO MORE DANIEL.
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  • Avatar of loveshows

    loveshows

    [112]Mar 21, 2009
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    What about Sam and Angel Kara meeting "on the other side" as Sam says as his last words?
    Is that means there is "the other side for cylon"?
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  • Avatar of tedia27

    tedia27

    [113]Mar 21, 2009
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    All I can say is the show ended alot lighter than I thought it would, but in the end it was a great finale not they way I wanted things answered, but answered anyway . . . SO SAY WE ALL!!!

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    Blackeyed81

    [114]Mar 21, 2009
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    I've watched every episode of BSG since the beginning. I've given Ron Moore the benefit of the doubt up until the end. What I watched last night was an awful, disgusting betrayal of all the time I and many other fans have invested in the show. I hated every second of the final hour -- it was as though radical anti-human environmentalists wrote the script. It made me think of Ayn Rand's "Return to the Primitive".

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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [115]Mar 21, 2009
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    loveshows wrote:
    What about Sam and Angel Kara meeting "on the other side" as Sam says as his last words?
    Is that means there is "the other side for cylon"?


    Seeing that the series had a God, and it affected both Cylons and Humans, I'm assuming that the other side is the same for both Cylons and humans.

    Some people have complained that the whole Kara being an Angel was a cop out. Some of said that if Head Baltar and Head Six were directly explained as being Angels, why couldn't Kara be done the same way. Well, Kara was human before she died. She was then brought back because she died before her destiny was complete. She could simply be a child of God, or a prophet who came back as a ghost.
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  • Avatar of poggie

    poggie

    [116]Mar 21, 2009
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    john_e_gold wrote:
    Kara could have been an angel, a god, a shape shifting bird, a non-corporal alien, etc.etc. does it matter. Use your own imagination. One of the things I love about the story is there are some things that are best left unresolved.

    Use your own imagination?

    May aswell make it all fan fiction then. WHo needs a TV show! Just make it up as you go, starbuck was a scientologist and baltar was xenu. Caprica was just a robot prostitute from mars. Woohoo, theres a story. rolling my eyes.

    No, THEY needed to put more effort into this shonky crapfest that you're all so forgiving of. They dropped the ball. When they build it up and put so much effort into making you salivate, to end it like this is WORSE than lost. No explanations, not tie ups. Just more loose ends left long enough and you get to ignote them.

    Bah - disgruntled is the word I will use, but it honestly does not convey the meaning I want to express.

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    poggie

    [117]Mar 21, 2009
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    [QUOTE="h00plah"]

    alllstarz wrote:
    The people hating on this episode are the people that cannot appreciate pure genius when they see it.

    Of chourse we are. Thats how the internet works. You get those who are genius, and then the rest of the world who sees things as they are.

    Right. No wonder scifi shows are so lame these days, people just lap it up, despite what flavour it is.

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  • Avatar of guidryp

    guidryp

    [118]Mar 21, 2009
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    Just because they ran from technology is no reason to destroy it. Technology enabled them to run. That is like saying technology like Guns kill people, so we should give up all technology from air conditioners to electron microscopes. Abandon your technology and you doom yourself to repeating all the same mistakes, dealing with the same misery, disease, pestilence, pollution that has afflicted human history, endless wars over resources etc... That could be avoided.

    But landing on a pristine Earth with advanced technology, you skip the devastating interim stages where you poison the planet and repeat all the old mistakes. You could do manufacturing on Mars for that matter and keep Earth an Eden. That would be breaking the cycle rather than repeating it.

    No this was chosen for no sensible or realistic reason, it was chosen to mesh with the final story element, that this was our Earths past they landed on. For that to be the case they had to do the nonsensical and abandon technology: go primitive. Here the writers do again what the have done MUCH too often, at a stroke they abandon common sense and human nature so they can service a plot device that really doesn't hold up. Anyway it is done and the trite ending is what we have.
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    poggie

    [119]Mar 21, 2009
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    blablobb wrote:
    If you can't come up with rational explanations to the questions you raise, let's angels (or whatever they were) handle it. Sorry, what a piece of crap. I expected actual answers to all the riddles and what i got was nothing...

    Finally, someone with the ability to think. I guess you and I are just not genius enough to grasp the simplicity of the complexicty that we're supposed to make up in order to satisfy ourselves with an unsatisfying conclusion to a great show. We should hang our heads in shame...

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    wingsabre

    [120]Mar 21, 2009
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    They've been using angels and divine powers to explain things from the beginning. Just because that's the answer in the end does not mean that it's an inferior answer. We had prophets and oracles serve as an explanation for decision being made in season one, we had Head Six guide Baltar to become President, while we had Head Baltar guide Caprica to end the Cylon Occupation of the Colonies and create a truce. Sometimes the most simple answer works. To simply say, the finale was not as good as I hyped it is just sour grapes. So what, you didn't have an orgasm watching it, it doesn't mean that it's not as good. I think most viewers are smart enough to figure out the subtle hints as to who and what Kara is. They don't need to be spoon feed information. They don't need to have someone literally say, Kara Thrace is a messenger from God.

    Plus, I don't see it as them running away from technology. Lee said technology and science will find a way to survive. All they did was say they all wanted a restart. They all wanted to spread out, have their land, and reap the benefits of it. It's more like being content with what they now have, and not wanting more. If they had landed those ships and spread them out, then we might have wars on who got more. Now everyone is at their own place, they get to do what they want. I'm content with that.
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