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Discussion - "Daybreak, Pt. 2 & 3" (3/20/09) (spoilers)

How would you rate this episode?

  • Avatar of ShotgunBlade

    ShotgunBlade

    [121]Mar 21, 2009
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    wingsabre wrote:
    123home123 wrote:
    -- We'll probably see a lot more of the Daniel story in Caprica.
    There will be no Daniel. Daniel was a one shot character that was mentioned....

    Moore himself has stated that Daniel was a bridge between BSG and Caprica, and that he would have some role in Caprica.

    As for the finale, I have voiced my opinions in the "Series Finale: Major Disappointment" thread. To summarize, it was awful, with many weak plot devices and irrational decisions.

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  • Avatar of QingJao86

    QingJao86

    [122]Mar 21, 2009
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    First hour (Part 2) was great. Second hour (part 3) was awful with the decisions. They should have went all Speaker of the Dead with the local populace. Or had them land in the here and now rather then 150,000 years ago. Does that sum it up good?
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  • Avatar of Invader_of_53

    Invader_of_53

    [123]Mar 21, 2009
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    Damn, wingsabre, I'm beginning to think you are some online manifestation of my psyche since you seem to be right on my point. I love you. Unless you're a guy, then I should change that to "respect you," you get the point. With that being said, I agree with everything you've said, but I would like to point something about Daniel - the reference 123home123 makes to more that story in the prequel series is based on the fact that the series has the creator of the Cylons in the Twelve Colonies named Daniel Graystone. It just seems like it's one of those coincidences that's so coincidental, it's not a coincidence. And although Moore tried to drive a stake through the heart of these rampant theories, he doesn't disperse any link to Caprica. In fact, he even suggests one in his podcast for "No Exit", but doesn't elaborate. Though I'm still not sure what link could be derived since Number Seven wasn't created until about 50 years later (the series is set 50 years prior to Galactica, by the way). I can only fathom the model was named after Graystone, but I have no idea how the series could address this.

    I also can't believe so many are hung-up on the spiritual blanks. I'd prefer the enigma of the spiritual aspects of the show them having them explained and claim to have answers for every complex issue of faith that we struggle with everyday. If we can accept that "God works in mysterious ways", then I don't know why you would demand more from works of fiction? Having the angels manipulate things makes perfect sense as much as believing in a higher power does. Accepting that seems to be the only thing these things are made to ask of you. This show always had these strong overtones, so I'm not sure why so many have gotten their knickers in a twist over only a small fraction of the plot (yes, an incredibly small portion) being left in the dark.

    I also want to reiterate the thing about technology. The breaking of the cycle isn't simply about creating advanced machines - it's about taking accountability for what you've done. That goes all the way back to the miniseries where Adama talks about not playing God and then thinking you can just wash your hands of it when it goes awry.

    I'll only say this about what I've learned about fans - many set themselves up for disappointment. You're too confident in your theories, set your hopes too high, leaving the inevitable backlash you've unleashed only upon one's self. I'll only say that none of you know what a horrible, "made it up as we went along", right out their ass, ending is unless you followed the War of the Worlds TV series. "The Obelisk" makes any series finale seem well thought out by comparison.

    And while I'm addressing above post and all, something I forgot the first time around...

    guyroy1971 wrote:
    Katee Sackoff's character was killed, in part because she got a part in "Bionic Woman" a network show with (probably) much better money. (it was also created by David Eick, btw) It was cancelled and she wanted to come back and they brought her back by making her an angel, or supernatual being, or whatever you want to interpret it as.

    No. This is how ugly rumours get started. Your statement is obviously incorrect for the following reasons: it's been stated numerous times that killing off Kara was always planned with the intention of resurrecting her; she did such just three episodes later, hardly time in reality for Katee to have been cast all the way until it was cancelled; Katee was just a guest star on that show, appearing in only half of the aired episodes, meaning Battlestar Galactica would have been the higher commitment; Kara came back in "Crossroads", Part 2 , which aired before Bionic Woman premièred; and finally, Bionic Woman was canned somewhere around the time of the writer's strike, which halted production of the second half of the Season 4. I just couldn't let that sit idle.

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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [124]Mar 21, 2009
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    Daniel Graystone does not have to be Daniel Cylon number 7. Daniel is a common name. Cavil himself was known as John by Ellen. Plus, Caprica is set 100 years before the Cylon War. That's more than 100 years before Daniel is created. The humanoid Cylons were created after the first Human Cylon War.
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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [125]Mar 21, 2009
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    Invader_of_53, It like all the whiners now are like Boston Red Sox fans bi+ch that they can't be the underdogs anymore after they won the world series. For one, I thought the ending would have been darker, but it wasn't and I'm glad it wasn't. It created a situation where all that has happened before could happen again, which is true to the premise of the series from the start.
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  • Avatar of amazingwebhead

    amazingwebhead

    [126]Mar 21, 2009
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    Well, really, the entire premise of Battlestar Galactica--what it all boils down to is one very simple question: Are we worthy of survival? Not only did the finale answer that question, but the entire series did so. Sure, it had its problems, but for such a medium (this isn't a novel, people) that creates restrictions on how a story is told, BSG done extremely well and I say without a doubt that it's my favourite TV series to date. What an ending though. Wow.
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  • Avatar of trip31

    trip31

    [127]Mar 21, 2009
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    Invader_of_53 wrote:
    3) It's really minor, but it's an excuse to round this out, but if the colony had old school Cylon Centurions (and Raiders), then why were none of them employed or seen up to this point?


    "The last time anyone Saw the Cylons they looked more like walking chrome toasters!"

    Then Six said "Those models are still around" we don't know if she was talking about the Centurians seen throughout thee series or those that were originally built by the Colonials?

    They could have been the units that became self aware and started the original war for all we know.
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  • Avatar of pumpkinhead2

    pumpkinhead2

    [128]Mar 21, 2009
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    If something happens that we humans can't comprehend then we end up calling it an act of god. To be honest I am somewhat disappointed that Moore took that same option.

    Rather than explain everything he decided to use "God" to explain the plot holes.

    Edited on 03/21/2009 3:59pm
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  • Avatar of copygeek

    copygeek

    [129]Mar 21, 2009
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    wingsabre wrote:
    Daniel Graystone does not have to be Daniel Cylon number 7. Daniel is a common name. Cavil himself was known as John by Ellen. Plus, Caprica is set 100 years before the Cylon War. That's more than 100 years before Daniel is created. The humanoid Cylons were created after the first Human Cylon War.

    HOW can Caprica take place 100 years before the Cylon War when it has been shown in the trailer for Caprica, and stated in interviews, as well as listed by character names on the TV.com website (look it up HERE) that Caprica will be about Joseph Adama and Daniel Graystone, AND will feature William Adama as a child?

    Sorry, but Caprica takes place about 50 years before the start of Battlestar Galactica, not 100. That's a significant time difference.

    Edited on 03/21/2009 4:04pm
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  • Avatar of hoobydictator

    hoobydictator

    [130]Mar 21, 2009
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    wingsabre wrote:
    Daniel Graystone does not have to be Daniel Cylon number 7. Daniel is a common name. Cavil himself was known as John by Ellen. Plus, Caprica is set 100 years before the Cylon War. That's more than 100 years before Daniel is created. The humanoid Cylons were created after the first Human Cylon War.

    I thought it was only supposed to be fifty years. Anyhow, it may be possible that Daniel winds up having been created in the image of and named for Daniel Greystone. If the centurians held him to be their creator, they may have influenced the seven's name and appearance in his honour.

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  • Avatar of guyroy1971

    guyroy1971

    [131]Mar 21, 2009
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    No finale will satisfy everyone. It seems the people who didn't like it are hung up on giving up technology and not liking the religous aspect of the show. As to religion, the anti-religous are becoming just as narrow minded as the very religous. The show was always spiritual. This isn't atheist Star Trek. Kara came back from the dead and she wasn't a cylon, so what else could she be but an angel (or resurrected to lead them to earth)? I'm not religous, but I can appreciate a show with a religous aspect, why get hung up on it? I didn't come out of nowhere after all, the whole season played up what Kara was, and her putting in the coordinates for earth was the payoff to that story. Her purpose was she was given (by god or whatever) a path to a new earth, one that they did not destroy. As to six and baltar, they also could have just said they were inner guilt, or their conscience or a figment of their imagination. So they mad them angels instead, so what? It didn't really matter exept it set up the final scene with the two angels reading about Hera in a newspaper in our world today and remarking if we would also destroy ourselves. I liked it as it tied the story into debates we are having now.

    All that matters is whether the ending was consitent with the story. In my opinion, it certainly was. I agree not everything was resolved, but almost everything is good enough for me. They didn't need to spell it out for everyone. The characters all behaved the way we expected they would. They decided to give up technology because it brought them nothing but sorrow. Yes, they did throw the baby out with the bath water (giving up the good technology too) but it was consistent with the story, as they came to our earth and we obviously don't have their technology, so obviously they had to explain that, and they did. The humans and the cylons destroyed every world they settled on (kobol, first earth, the colonies) so they decided a radical break was necessary. I don't know why this one tidbit is ruining it for so many people. Lee Adama bascially stated it when he said that technology without advancement in the soul is what lead them to their downfall. The whole theme of the show is that both themselves and the cylons could not handle technology. All they did was constantly kill each other going back 6000 years. This also ties into the now with debates about cloning, stem cells, nuclear power and robotics. People who dissent from these issues point out the same thing. Can we handle what we are discovering or will it destroy us? BSG dealt fantastically with these same issues.

    You don't have to agree with everything to appreciate it. There are many movies that I disagree with the politics of it but still love because it was well done and the characters behaved consistently. ("Platoon" springs to mind for me) Many of the great books I read or shows I loved had endings I disagreed with but still love (King's Dark Tower comes to mind, Soprano's anyone?) Because "I" would have done it diffeerently doesn't mean I now hate the books or the show. It was the writers vision and we got to enjoy it. You cannot make something that everyone will like. This is what doomed Trek. They tried to make everyone happy and it got blander and blander. If one story dared to contradict the original or if one little thing was changed, the purist threw a hissy fit. Ronald Moore gave an interview where he basically said the same thing. (he worked on Star Trek Voyager and basically got to the point where he quit.) He wanted to take chances and push the envelope. When you do that, some people will not like it. That is why shows like this one and Lost or MASH or Hill Street Blues..etc are great, they take chances. We have CSI, Dancing with the stars and law and Order for people who like their shows inoffensive and bland. But the test is whether they still watch. People obviously did.

    My rant is over. lol Now on to "Lost" for me. I watch every week, have the DVD's and made up theories as to what the ending will be and I am sure when it ends I will be wrong they will all be dead and god brought them back to the dead or whatever and I will be mad for a second and I will still have loved it.

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  • Avatar of pwells01

    pwells01

    [132]Mar 21, 2009
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    I thought it was a good wrap-up. It essentially provided a big-picture answer without providing concrete answers. Moore chose to leave it all in the arms of the "angels", rather than having the mystery solved piece by piece to reach the final destination. In that way, he stayed true to his focus on character development. My preference would have been more concrete resolutions through puzzle-solving - it seemed like little clues were scattered around that had fans deep in discussions (with creative ideas, I must say), but apparently the items were not so significant to the overall story. With little time left and not a whole lot of answers forthcoming in the last few episodes, I did somewhat expect the approach seen in the finale. As a whole, I didn't like the idea of a greater being essentially directing their lives through projections and physical entities (like Starbuck), which diminishes the idea of free will, but this is something of a personal nature.

    I really enjoyed the first part, "Daybreak, Part 2". It had Galactica on its last mission, with great action and special effects all around. It had some resolutions, like between Galen/Tory and Athena/Boomer, and it had the short peace treaty with Cavil, which, at the time, I didn't know how it would end.

    As for the second part, "Daybreak, Part 3", this was all spent tidying things up with the main characters. It was a bit of a letdown because I'm not partial to spending an entire episode on a series of ending tags like this, or on DS9, or B5. Also, I didn't like the final few minutes, where they fast-forward 150,000 years later. I think the cycle thing was pretty obvious already and there was no need for that part, and it's better to leave the "angels" more to your imagination than having them talk to each other like that.

    But all in all, a good ending to the series, and my thanks to Moore and the others for providing the journey over the years!
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  • Avatar of Billkup

    Billkup

    [133]Mar 21, 2009
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    i think its wrong to say that "god" was the one who manipulated all those events. the final dialogue is significant, when head baltar says "he doesnt like to be called that way". its obviously some being and not the almighty god or fundamental power of nature. i have a strong feeling that this will be resolved in the upcoming tv movie. i know thats kind of a cheap strategy, but why make a tv movie if you have explained everything before.

    and once again, the colonists didnt abandon technology or knowledge, but moore failed to explain/emphasize this better.

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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [134]Mar 21, 2009
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    Sorry 50 years. Either way, 50 years before the cylon war, and the number 7 was created after the first cylon war ended. That means, there is no Daniel, and Daniel is not Kara's dad.

    As for the tv movie, "The Plan" it's intended to elaborate what Cavil did to the final five.

    Also, when they say it's God, I don't think they're saying God is manipulating it all. He sets forth the visions, he sets forth the destiny, but God doesn't make it happen. Instead he creates the situation where it can happen, and allows history to repeat itself, but things can occur so that someone will stop the cycle. That occurred when the Rebel Cylons joined forces with the Colonials, and they're saying that the cycle could end now if our robots aren't subjugated. The series was an allegory on current events, which is what Sci-Fi is meant to do.
    Edited on 03/21/2009 5:09pm
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  • Avatar of Lokutes

    Lokutes

    [135]Mar 21, 2009
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    FAN-----FRAKKING-----TASTIC!!

    Best show on TV goes out with a bang.....
    Great stuff, exactly the way it should be...
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  • Avatar of BHSWorkstation

    BHSWorkstation

    [136]Mar 21, 2009
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    wedgeantilles54 wrote:
    dezigner4web wrote:

    MichaelDracon wrote:
    dragon755 wrote:
    Did anyone else realise that galen went to live on modern day england...galen and england...shoulda picked that from the start haha
    The mention of 'Highlands' made that very clear.

    Can someone explain the significance of this? I knew it was a reference, but missed it.

    Its has to do with the Cheif's name and the fact it is galic (sorry if spelled it wrong)
    Also for me the mention of the highlands implied scotland or ireland to me rather than England

    Yes, the "highlands" is probably going to put it somewhere along Scotland / Ireland. As for the Chief's name, I would say that puts him squarely with the Irish. "Galen" might have Greek origins, but in modern times it is most strongly associated with the Irish so I'm going to say that it is pretty clear that Tyrol was Bono's great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandad.

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  • Avatar of danharr

    danharr

    [137]Mar 21, 2009
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    Well I liked it and thought it did a great job at wrapping up the story and explaining itself. We have the common link for mankind, an explanation of where our languages and cultures come from and finally some clarity on hallucination Balthar and Six. I think them starting from scratch was very plausible as opposed to what wowing the Neanderthals into worshipping them and building pyramids? All the stories were wrapped up wonderfully and the nods to before the fall Rosalyn coming to the government and Lee and Kara made it even better. I liked the vision and how it was handled I'll judge them based on what they gave us not personal opinion good job.
    Edited on 03/21/2009 5:19pm
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  • Avatar of august29

    august29

    [138]Mar 21, 2009
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    wingsabre wrote:
    Daniel is dead, there is no Daniel. Cavil killed him. Get it straight, THERE ARE NO DANIEL. This is comes straight from the producers, and the writer's mouth. We don't need a cult of Daniel out there. There is no Daniel. Kara's father is not Daniel. Daniel died, so obviously there's no way for him to father Kara. Hera is the only Human Cylon hybrid. Cavil is sadistic, but not to the point of torturing Daniel. Cavil likes to tourture the final five, and ending Daniel for good is a way to torture Ellen. I repeat, Daniel is not Kara's Dad. Daniel is dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, DEAD! Enough with the whole Daniel thing!

    Er...who gave you the frakking rights to dictate that your view is the right view? that your conclusion is the truth and only way? We are just voicing out what could be , could have been, letting our imaginations run. Cavil is a sadist, what better way to torture Ellen than letting her thinking he destroyed the Daniel matrix while in truth, he send out the remaining good copy on caprica? What better way to torture Ellen by not letting her know that Daniel is existing somewhere? that when they both cross path, they cross paths as strangers? This possibility exist and yet the idea was so intrusive to your perception of the story that you just have to shout "no..No...NO, he's dead dead DEAD!"

    If this Daniel thing is enough, how come you're hell bent in insist there is no connection of any sort when in fact, Ellen mentioned he likes to paint , more sensitive to things around him (much like a musician.), Yet somehow, kara might have inherited a genetic predisposition to paint a picture of kobol and remembers a lesson on a paino which musical notes are actually a coordinate for them to jump into?. Even if they are false clues, the realm of possibility that a lone Daniel copy on Caprica is not so far flung. Yah I might be wrong,so what? Why drown out an expression of an idea, no matter how idiotic it seems to you?

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  • Avatar of Twizster

    Twizster

    [139]Mar 21, 2009
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    What a terrible ending, they had all that time to come up with a decent ending and this was the best they could do? It's hard to believe that its the same writers who wrote all those brilliant episodes leading up to this. This finale produced more questions than it answered.
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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [140]Mar 21, 2009
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    august29 wrote:

    wingsabre wrote:
    Daniel is dead, there is no Daniel. Cavil killed him. Get it straight, THERE ARE NO DANIEL. This is comes straight from the producers, and the writer's mouth. We don't need a cult of Daniel out there. There is no Daniel. Kara's father is not Daniel. Daniel died, so obviously there's no way for him to father Kara. Hera is the only Human Cylon hybrid. Cavil is sadistic, but not to the point of torturing Daniel. Cavil likes to tourture the final five, and ending Daniel for good is a way to torture Ellen. I repeat, Daniel is not Kara's Dad. Daniel is dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, DEAD! Enough with the whole Daniel thing!

    Er...who gave you the frakking rights to dictate that your view is the right view? that your conclusion is the truth and only way? We are just voicing out what could be , could have been, letting our imaginations run. Cavil is a sadist, what better way to torture Ellen than letting her thinking he destroyed the Daniel matrix while in truth, he send out the remaining good copy on caprica? What better way to torture Ellen by not letting her know that Daniel is existing somewhere? that when they both cross path, they cross paths as strangers? This possibility exist and yet the idea was so intrusive to your perception of the story that you just have to shout "no..No...NO, he's dead dead DEAD!"

    If this Daniel thing is enough, how come you're hell bent in insist there is no connection of any sort when in fact, Ellen mentioned he likes to paint , more sensitive to things around him (much like a musician.), Yet somehow, kara might have inherited a genetic predisposition to paint a picture of kobol and remembers a lesson on a paino which musical notes are actually a coordinate for them to jump into?. Even if they are false clues, the realm of possibility that a lone Daniel copy on Caprica is not so far flung. Yah I might be wrong,so what? Why drown out an expression of an idea, no matter how idiotic it seems to you?



    Because that's what the producers and writers said. There are no connection. People are making a Daniel Cult for no apparent reason, and they have no intention to it. Daniel was killed by Cavil to torture Ellen, and Daniel's genetic matrix was destroyed. Daniel was mention simply to show how evil Cavil is, and to explain why there was a number 8. You know, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8. There had to be a model number 7 in order to get a model number 8. There is no Daniel connection to Kara. her dad was human, and Hera is the first Human Cylon hybrid. That is clear cut. It's that straight forward. Daniel was DESTROYED. Daniel, and all copies of him are dead. There is nothing more to it. I can't understand why someone's so invested into a character that was mentioned for seconds. It's not some open plot whole or anything. Daniel had a beginning, and he had an end. A very quick and bloody end at the hands of Cavil, but an end none the less. He contributed to essentially nothing in the series, except to clarify numbering errors and to emphasize how evil Cavil is. That's all. No more. Even Ron Moore went out of his way to explain to others on the official Battlestar Galactica Pod Cast that Daniel has nothing to do with the series other than a one shot character that wasn't even cast. Could we see more of Daniel in "The Plan?" Yes, but that doesn't mean there's something greater to that character, and it doesn't mean Daniel was sent to Caprica to frak someone and make baby Kara.
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