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Discussion - "Dirty Hands" (2/25/07 episode) (spoilers)

  • Avatar of gabfan31

    gabfan31

    [61]Feb 27, 2007
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    felicore wrote:
    copygeek wrote:

    Yeah, I didn't totally like the Mein Kampf analogies, either. The only real similarity is that Baltar and Hitler both wrote their books while in prison.

    Baltar's book actually seems to have more in common with the works of Karl Marx on Communism/Socialism.



    mh, i think the writers intended the analogies to mein kampf. that book
    is surely a piece of crap, but the people bought and read it
    nevertheless. and there are still people who read it and think that it
    worth more than the paper its printed on - the dangerous thing is that
    the book contains exactly the things those people want to hear - it
    offers simple solutions to complex problems. and that's what baltar's
    book does - and, since tyrol refers to it as being a pile of trash (or
    something like that) it does not seem to offer much more than that.
    baltar probably hopes this book will help him in the upcoming trial....
    let's see how that will turn out.



    and the paralells to marx' works.... i don't think so. try reading the "capital" - that's far from being easily accessible.

    Chairman Mao is actually the person who came to my mind. I can't say that he did his writing in prison, but he wrote as a peasant for peasants advocating revolution. His works were pretty much watered down Marx and Engels, but that's what made him accessible. You didn't have to be a scholar to understand him. But I don't think they had one sole person in mind for Baltar to be echoing- there's elements from a number of people from history.
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  • Avatar of felicore

    felicore

    [62]Feb 27, 2007
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    [/QUOTE]  But I don't think they had one sole person in mind for Baltar to be echoing- there's elements from a number of people from history. [/QUOTE]

    you're probably right, but the analogies to hitler are things that came to my mind first. which is actually pretty scary, since baltar still is a somehow likeable character.
    and the marxist rhetoric of forbidden>
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  • Avatar of JalineTV

    JalineTV

    [63]Feb 27, 2007
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    I enjoyed this episode. I also liked the two previous episodes that were similar and featured Helo. He's one of my favourite characters, and while the episodes were poorly written in some aspects of how random some of his actions were and how he thought he could be a hero, the show still explored REALLY important issues that people are dealing with in the world on a daily basis. The same thing could be said for the labour issues in this episode.

     Although I'm not that into Tyrol, I don't mind focusing on some of the secondary characters now and then. I actually really liked Seelix back in the first couple of seasons until she was a part of that group of people who have trials for those who allegedly worked with the Cylons, and she kind of scared me because she was much more into persecuting people compared to the Chief. She hasn't been that bad lately though.

    I'm a bit wary of Roslin and Adama though. They had some valid, thought-provoking points for their actions, but some of the things they said to the Chief were scary. I'd have to agree with Baltar's book. And I'm still thinking about what Sharon/Boomer's place in the fleet was and how she was from the same place as Baltar.
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [64]Feb 27, 2007
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    People are correct that there isn't an exact match between Baltar and Hitler but this isn't meant to be a recreation of our history. BSG takes certain elements and adds it to its unique mix. Baltar has some elements of Hitler though. His rhetoric is winning many converts throughout the fleet despite everyone's familiarity with his past misdeeds on New Caprica. That's similar to Hitler's dangerous rhetoric and power over people. And we've seen that Baltar can be extremely dangerous when in a position of power.

    It seems like the two-part finale may re-launch Baltar into a position of some authority. Perhaps he escapes and becomes a Viet Cong or Shining Path-type figure. Maybe he takes over the radical element of the fleet that used to follow Tom Zarek. (They may think he "sold out" by becoming the vice president.) I think this episode breathes new life into the Baltar story and character. Suddenly there are a lot of interesting directions in which his story can go.
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  • Avatar of gabfan31

    gabfan31

    [65]Feb 27, 2007
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    Whatever his storyline, he has come along way from the sniveling, narcisistic character of the first season, and I'm finally beginning to see what everyone else seems to see in him. James Callis is simply brilliant in the role, and I agree, he steals just about every scene he's in. He's still a right barstard, but that's okay, every show needs a bad guy. He makes you almost want to see the bad guy win, at least for a moment.
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  • Avatar of Mangalore

    Mangalore

    [66]Feb 28, 2007
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    felicore wrote:

    mh, i think the writers intended the analogies to mein kampf. that book
    is surely a piece of crap, but the people bought and read it
    nevertheless. and there are still people who read it and think that it
    worth more than the paper its printed on - the dangerous thing is that
    the book contains exactly the things those people want to hear - it
    offers simple solutions to complex problems. and that's what baltar's
    book does - and, since tyrol refers to it as being a pile of trash (or
    something like that) it does not seem to offer much more than that.
    baltar probably hopes this book will help him in the upcoming trial....
    let's see how that will turn out.



    Hitler's "Mein Kampf" does not offer simple solutions to complex problems. It is entirely delusional, incoherent and confused in what it written there. There are hilarious animal examples in there, hilarious if it wouldn't have been acted upon.
    His book got bought and popular after 1933, not before. You know how it got popular? In nazigermany when you finished school, university, got a new job, entered military service, joined the NSDAP, rose in ranks in the NSDAP etc. etc. you got this book as a gift so you'd become a good German in the eyes of the Fuhrer. This meant that every German household had this book but few actually read about it.

    The main difference I see is that Baltar's book is far more sophisticated and he makes good points in argumentation even though he distorts the reality he actually builds upon experiences anyone in the lower levels of the fleet could follow (he is obviously deadon in how the workforces perceive themselves in the mix).
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  • Avatar of krinks

    krinks

    [67]Feb 28, 2007
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    facewweasel wrote:

    not sure if anyone posted this but if adama was to kill off the workers who would've taken their jobs without any training. i thought possible that the chief caved early- adama didn't really have any power without chief's crew whose going to make sure galactica and the vipers are running



    I think it's important to make a distinction that people appear to be missing:  Adama was only willing to shoot people when the strike, or work-slow-down, hit Galactica.  Until then, the strike oin t he refinery was extremely inconvenient, but it was NOT a military issue per se.  The workers on the refinery are not military and are not subject to military law, as the knuckledraggers are on Galactica.

    I would say the refinery workers are more like police, fire and EMS.  They're essential services that should not be allowed to strike, but they should not be lined up and shot either.  What would've happened if factory workers had walked out of an aircraft factory during WWII?  They wouldn't be shot, but there'd still likely be serious consequences.
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  • Avatar of Writer2000

    Writer2000

    [68]Feb 28, 2007
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    I know that I'm a little late in joining the discussion for this episode, but I've been very busy this week. Anyway, all I can say about this episode is that Mary McDonnell (Roslin) was frakkin' awesome in this episode, especially in that one scene where she's talking to Baltar and she goes ballistic. All in all, this was a great episode.
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  • Avatar of JalineTV

    JalineTV

    [69]Feb 28, 2007
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    gabfan31 wrote:
    Whatever his storyline, he has come along way from the sniveling, narcisistic character of the first season, and I'm finally beginning to see what everyone else seems to see in him. James Callis is simply brilliant in the role, and I agree, he steals just about every scene he's in. He's still a right barstard, but that's okay, every show needs a bad guy. He makes you almost want to see the bad guy win, at least for a moment.


    I agree. I love to hate him, and didn't get his appeal until this past episode. I still find him to be despicable, but clearly a great character.
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  • Avatar of LMH68

    LMH68

    [70]Mar 1, 2007
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    It always makes me uneasy when people say there should be some industries where people are not allowed to strike. I understand what you mean (like nursing, fire brigade etc) but who will stand up for their rights when they are downtrodden?

    Clearly the people in the refinery were working in unreasonable conditions (a boy of 12? is that what they're fight for?) but because it was essential work, everyone was prepared to let it go.

    When no one listens through the 'regular' channels, what other option do you have but to make them listen? Maybe then they will see the signs sooner in another similar situation and resolve it before it gets out of hand.
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  • Avatar of quote12

    quote12

    [71]Mar 1, 2007
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    mgtsol wrote:
    haha, aye lad that were a full-on Yorkshire accent, when he startied speaking like that i thought for a minute i was watching some kind of space version of Last of the Summer Wine!!


    My respect for Callis notwithstanding, that was a BBCish half-on Yorkshire accent; full-on is barely comprehensible in the Home Counties, much less to a US television audience.
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  • Avatar of gabfan31

    gabfan31

    [72]Mar 1, 2007
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    LMH68 wrote:
    It always makes me uneasy when people say there should be some industries where people are not allowed to strike. I understand what you mean (like nursing, fire brigade etc) but who will stand up for their rights when they are downtrodden?

    Clearly the people in the refinery were working in unreasonable conditions (a boy of 12? is that what they're fight for?) but because it was essential work, everyone was prepared to let it go.

    When no one listens through the 'regular' channels, what other option do you have but to make them listen? Maybe then they will see the signs sooner in another similar situation and resolve it before it gets out of hand.

    I think they did a great job of highlighting the differences in the military and civilian worlds in this episode. A work stoppage (even for critical services) in a civilian industry is a strike, and a work stoppage on a military vessel is mutiny. Of course, if a civilian strike gets out of hand the military can declare martial law, but I don't think anybody wants that after the last fiasco. Fortunately, the people in charge made the right choice when they were forced to respond to the pressure from the workers. I just wonder how all those white collar types are going to respond when they fine out they are now responsible for housekeeping and KP! Another mutiny, perhaps?!
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    ozwitch

    [73]Mar 1, 2007
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    quote12 wrote:
    mgtsol wrote:
    haha, aye lad that were a full-on Yorkshire accent, when he startied speaking like that i thought for a minute i was watching some kind of space version of Last of the Summer Wine!!


    My respect for Callis notwithstanding, that was a BBCish half-on Yorkshire accent; full-on is barely comprehensible in the Home Counties, much less to a US television audience.


    Haha - he sounded exactly like Sean Bean to me, I loved it!
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    cyberentity

    [74]Mar 2, 2007
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    I really don’t understand what good Adama’s action were, he made Tyrol inform his men that their demands were answered and then he gave Tyrol his audience with the president, so for all the workers know Adama caved in for their demands, was this worth threatening Kally’s life ? was it just a testosterone spike ?

    Someone said that Helo’s actions didn’t endanger the fleet the way Tyrol did, didn’t Helo put every human life in danger by preventing humanity’s last weapon against the Cylons, the Virus from being unleashed, Adama knew it and he let it go, though what Helo did crosses mutiny into clear cut treason.

    The whole situation could have been avoided if Adama and Rosilin have listened to Tyrol in the first place, It seems that all Rosilin cared about was to keep the oil pumping not the lives and the conditions of the people that she is supposed to be entrusted with, funny how she changed after all before the Cylon attack on Caprica wasn’t she mediating an end for some teachers strike, now she makes people who hold strikes after being treated basically as slaves into terrorists that she shouldn’t negotiate with? And that quote about burning books and confiscating Balthar’s writings, isn’t that against the principals of democracy and free thought that she drives the legitimacy of her office from?, doesn’t that action in its self dissolve the legitimacy of her position, don’t tell me that they have to because they are in war running from the Cylons, if that was the case they would have declared martial law from day one till now, She emphasized countless times that democracy and their values are what keeps them apart from the Cylons, its hypocrisy to use democracy only when it’s to your own advantage. After all enslaving the Cylons into probably the exact same place that those workers are in now is what caused them to rebel and almost destroy humanity, doesn’t humans ever learn from their mistakes ?
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    AuntPat

    [75]Mar 3, 2007
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    I have been taping BSG over old Babylon 5 tapes.  While watching "Dirty Hands," I was reminded of the "By Any Means Necessary" episode of B5 which does not comparison well.  Ostensibly an episode about a labor dispute, despite the revolutionary ep title, the conflict is not between the main characters, but is deflected to the sinister representatives of earth gov (which turns out to be on the side of some serious bad guys).   Everything gets straightened out by cleverness, not by facing the underlying issues of class, ownership, and power.   I appreciate a SciFi show like BSG where the inappropriate emotional responses, cluelessness and mistakes are sometimes part of character development, not just in service of the plot, and where real human issues effect not only the characters, but the social and political structures of their universe.  In case you were wondering, I now have B5 on DVD.

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    Mangalore

    [76]Mar 3, 2007
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    cyberentity wrote:
    I really don’t understand what good Adama’s action were, he made Tyrol inform his men that their demands were answered and then he gave Tyrol his audience with the president, so for all the workers know Adama caved in for their demands, was this worth threatening Kally’s life ? was it just a testosterone spike ?


    Adama didn't care about that. All he cared about was his mutinious crew. If Tyrol wouldn't have managed to stop the strike on galactica he would have started shooting Kally and any other mutineer. It was no testosteron spike, he simply acted the way military doctrine demanded it and that is that a mutiny be put down with extreme predjudice.

    :
    Someone said that Helo’s actions didn’t endanger the fleet the way Tyrol did, didn’t Helo put every human life in danger by preventing humanity’s last weapon against the Cylons, the Virus from being unleashed, Adama knew it and he let it go, though what Helo did crosses mutiny into clear cut treason.


    He didn't endanger mankind because him preventing the use of a biological weapons agent didn't change the status quo at all. The situation simply remained the same. It is not like he made Galactica incapable to defend herself and be destroyed by the Cylons. Also the chance of the whole virus operation succeeding contained huge unknown factors as well.

    :
    The whole situation could have been avoided if Adama and Rosilin have listened to Tyrol in the first place, It seems that all Rosilin cared about was to keep the oil pumping not the lives and the conditions of the people that she is supposed to be entrusted with, funny how she changed after all before the Cylon attack on Caprica wasn’t she mediating an end for some teachers strike, now she makes people who hold strikes after being treated basically as slaves into terrorists that she shouldn’t negotiate with?


    Entirely different situations. If the flow of fuel stops the fleet gets a sitting target. You also have to keep in mind that she came around when she noticed herself that this situation is serious and inacceptable.

    It is a simple matter of making false assumptions of the gravity of a problem. Anyone makes that mistake. That she didn't act sooner is simply because she didn't have the inside knowledge we, the audience, had.

    :
    And that quote about burning books and confiscating Balthar’s writings, isn’t that against the principals of democracy and free thought that she drives the legitimacy of her office from?, doesn’t that action in its self dissolve the legitimacy of her position, ...


    You miss the point here that Roslin uttered that if it was her decision that she would like to burn that book but as she is bound by democratic principles she cannot do so. She was being cynical.
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    alex20020712

    [77]Mar 8, 2007
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    aimers22 wrote:
    Adama may seem cruel and harsh, but the simple fact is that he was doing his job.


    Was Admiral Cain just doing her job, too?

    aimers22 wrote:
    If the cylons attacked in that time period the entire fleet would have been destroyed.


    That is the big word: IF. It is simply wrong to murder someone (which is a final and irreversible act), just because of what MIGHT happen. Threatening to murder someone is not a lot better.

    How about torture? Would that be acceptable, too? i.e., would it be acceptable for Adama to use torture to keep the fleet in line?

    What about his speech--is humanity worth saving? If it becomes a matter of survival for survival's sake, at the cost of giving up morality, then the answer is no.
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    alex20020712

    [78]Mar 8, 2007
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    ellewiz wrote:
    If soldiers stop following orders, people can die.


    Yes, they could. And if you intentionally kill them, they do [die]. Sometimes, people say that the end justifies the means, because they do not have a better justification.

    Even in war, there are rules. Hence, the concept of war crimes, and illegal orders. Of course, you cannot have a chain of command if everyone does what he/she wants, or gets to choose which orders to follow, however, the other extreme is not valid, either. Being at war is not a blank check to do whatever you want or think you need to do.
    Edited on 03/08/2007 10:57pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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    alex20020712

    [79]Mar 8, 2007
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    AuntPat wrote:
    I have been taping BSG over old Babylon 5 tapes. While watching "Dirty Hands," I was reminded of the "By Any Means Necessary" episode of B5 which does not comparison well.


    They certainly do not compare well, because they are radically different. The B5 situation was economic and political (and it did have consequences for Sinclair, later on). B5 was not a lost fleet of the last 40,000 humans alive.
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    gcswift2

    [80]Mar 11, 2007
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    alex20020712 wrote:
    ellewiz wrote:
    If soldiers stop following orders, people can die.
    Yes, they could. And if you intentionally kill them, they do [die]. Sometimes, people say that the end justifies the means, because they do not have a better justification. Even in war, there are rules. Hence, the concept of war crimes, and illegal orders. Of course, you cannot have a chain of command if everyone does what he/she wants, or gets to choose which orders to follow, however, the other extreme is not valid, either. Being at war is not a blank check to do whatever you want or think you need to do.

    When a choice is between purely Good vs. Evil it is a fairly easy choice. Unfortunately most choices especially in wartime are between 2 evils. I was in the Marine Corps during Iraqi Freedom and as an Infantryman my job was to "Locate, Close with, and Destroy the Enemy". Civilized people should agree that killing another human is an explicitly evil action. In the tight confines of a city like An' Nasiriah or Faluja, military tactics are at thier most brutal. The Men and Women who served in those 2 particular fights have looked upon the face of War up close and personal. They have walked into buildings and alleys prepared to kill whoever was around the corner, be it man, woman, or child. They have been close enough to their victims that they could see the spray of blood exit the back of their targets head. The ground pounders in those fights were not sitting in a cockpit 20,000 ft away they were many times less than 20ft apart from their enemies. When you are in those kind of situations where you have to decide that you either kill the target before you or you allow your friends to die..... You kill the target before you.

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