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Syfy (ended 2010)

Discussion-"He That Believeth In Me" (U.S. air date 4/4/08) (spoilers)

  • Avatar of clos_vf

    clos_vf

    [61]Apr 5, 2008
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    The "Last Supper" montage pic was great!
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    123home123

    [62]Apr 5, 2008
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    Yes, interestingly enough, it's somewhat brave to deal with religious matters in a serious manner on a TV show. Usually when a character is religious in a modern show, that person ends up being a crazed serial killer or something like that. It's become a modern Hollywood cliche.

    On the other hand, some shows that focus on religion become overly sentimental and treacly. I like the way that BSG is heading down this path, with serious intent, a respectful examination of the story, and yet with the same hard-hitting approach that they have taken with other sensitive subjects like prisoner interrogations, abortion rights, wartime values, and suicide bombers. The more I think about it, the more I think this could be a masterstroke, to focus intensely on the religious angle of Gaius Baltar's story.

    Though Number Six has been talking about the Cylon god ever since Season 1, their relationship was often more about sexual desire and the domination of Number Six over the psychologically weak Baltar. I think in Season 2 that relationship stagnated a bit until New Caprica and Baltar's time onboard the Cylon base ship in Season 3. This new storyline can make Baltar into one of the greatest characters on the show again.
    Edited on 04/05/2008 4:46pm
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  • Avatar of Predator_187

    Predator_187

    [63]Apr 5, 2008
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    I got it, the 5th cylon is Dr Zee.

    Nuff Said

    Pat

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    PPG-Katelyn

    [64]Apr 5, 2008
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    Wow! I didn't know about this new 'Battlestar Galactica' series! I know my Dad used to watch the old series. Anyway, I'm sure the new season will be pretty cool.
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    Jeric-Ho

    [65]Apr 5, 2008
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    It could be something to do with the Ovaries that the "Simon" model cylon took from Kara on Caprica! as this has never been brought back into the show as to why they took them! she could possibly be a clone from her own ovaries and fake implanted memories, even Kara thinks this could be true so you never know! but if this was the case then would the Cylons make such a rookie mistake as to rebuild her Viper but make it look brand new like it was off the production line? because if they can clone people then surely they have the skills and brains to think about the Viper!

    I personally think it is something different, and she is possibly a God of some kind who cannot die, but this still does not explain the brand new Viper.

    Awesome start to the season! can't wait for more, and then we have the new prequel show Caprica to keep us going after BSG ends which should be cool just hope it is of the same quality!
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  • Avatar of Vincent2013

    Vincent2013

    [66]Apr 5, 2008
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    I am so glad I found this series. I mean know its part of my top five when I yell at the TV. Only other shows that I yell at is heroes and lost. By the way who is that brunette six from the next preview . She is hot
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    crito84

    [67]Apr 5, 2008
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    She's a new version called Natalie. She seems intent on uniting all twelve models.
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  • Avatar of mamckinney

    mamckinney

    [68]Apr 6, 2008
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    All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again...

    I think we are far from any explanation about Kara Thrace. There is, of course, the clone question arising from the experiments done on her by the cylon Simon on Caprica. However, I believe there are larger questions around her existence going back into her childhood. Two questions in particular: What is the story around the drawings of "The Eye of Jupiter", and what's the deal with her mother? If Kara is a cylon, what does that make her mother? Would that mean that Kara's mother is another copy of the model that Kara is?...that she raised a copy of herself as a human? More importantly, is there an infant stage to the human model cylons? Clearly these questions are impossible to answer at this stage, so let's look at the present stage.

    Prior to last season's cliff-hanger we know who seven of the cylon models are: Six, Sharon, D'Anna, Cavil, Leoben, Doral, and Simon. With the cliff-hanger we add: Tigh, Tyrol, Anders and Foster. Given that there are 12 models of human cylons, this brings the total to 11. Given that the teasers state that number 12 is yet to be revealed, I propose that it is not Kara. There is sufficient evidence to support other possibilities for her return. Furthermore, when D'Anna, during her death visions, looks upon the face of the final cylon, her reaction is one of reverence and respect. I highly doubt that she would react this way to Starbuck. That being the case, it is far more likely number 12 is someone more highly placed and in a pivotal role. I submit 2 likely candidates: Laura Roselin and William Adama.

    Roselin has already given several clues as to why she could be number 12: Shared visions with Six. Visions of Leoben. I can go on, but here's why I don't believe she is the one: If she is fulfilling the role of the dieing leader as recorded by Pythias prophesy, since the dieing leader is not supposed to live to see Earth, then Laura cannot be 12. As a cylon, she would reincarnate into the next body and therefore be able to see Earth.

    So, for me, that leaves Bill Adama. Supporting evidence: Tigh is a cylon, so human cylon models go back before, or at the very least, during the first war. Thanks to Sharon (Athena not Boomer) and Tyrol, we know that cylons can have children with humans. This would cover for Zach and Lee Adama. Given Adama's father's career choice as a lawyer (not a very interesting career for a cylon) the fact that William Adama is an officer of the Colonial fleet (a very interesting career for a cylon) would put him in an ideal position. Further questions: Why did he have the crew disconnect all network links on the Galactica? Did he do this on the Valkyrie? I doubt it. Furthermore, how was it that the cylons were able to so easily locate Bulldog's stealth viper during Valkyrie's reconnaissance mission into cylon space? The simple question remains: How is Adama always in the right position to save the day?

    The rest, I leave to you to speculate.

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [69]Apr 6, 2008
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    123home123 wrote:
    t3uv wrote:
    BTW, still about Sam, I think I heard during the battle scene that his callsign was "Longshot". Can anyone confirm?

    I'll have to look into that. I recorded the episode on my DVR so I can check it out later on Saturday (afternoon).

    Yes, Seelix referred to him as Longshot. He responded with the name of Longshot in return. (I verified this with the closed captioning.)

    I added an interesting possible allusion to the episode guide. There is a Marvel Comics character by the name of Longshot. The character's background is intriguing in light of the similarity to Anders. The Marvel character was artificially created by genetic engineers on another world. Longshot was a slave who helped to rise up against the slave masters. He lost his memories during his escape to Earth where he eventually joined The X-Men for a brief period.

    There are far too many similarities for this to be random coincidence. Anders is a Final Five Cylon so he is genetically engineered in some way. He also has amnesia of some sort because he does not remember his real creation or his real origins. He is trying to escape to Earth, just like the Marvel Comics character.

    However, I don't think Anders will be joining The X-Men anytime soon. (I don't read comics myself. I looked up Longshot on Google in the hopes that I'd find something interesting. I think I did.)
    Edited on 04/06/2008 1:44am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of Light_Destroyer

    Light_Destroyer

    [70]Apr 6, 2008
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    mamckinney wrote:

    All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again...

    I think we are far from any explanation about Kara Thrace. There is, of course, the clone question arising from the experiments done on her by the cylon Simon on Caprica. However, I believe there are larger questions around her existence going back into her childhood. Two questions in particular: What is the story around the drawings of "The Eye of Jupiter", and what's the deal with her mother? If Kara is a cylon, what does that make her mother? Would that mean that Kara's mother is another copy of the model that Kara is?...that she raised a copy of herself as a human? More importantly, is there an infant stage to the human model cylons? Clearly these questions are impossible to answer at this stage, so let's look at the present stage.

    Prior to last season's cliff-hanger we know who seven of the cylon models are: Six, Sharon, D'Anna, Cavil, Leoben, Doral, and Simon. With the cliff-hanger we add: Tigh, Tyrol, Anders and Foster. Given that there are 12 models of human cylons, this brings the total to 11. Given that the teasers state that number 12 is yet to be revealed, I propose that it is not Kara. There is sufficient evidence to support other possibilities for her return. Furthermore, when D'Anna, during her death visions, looks upon the face of the final cylon, her reaction is one of reverence and respect. I highly doubt that she would react this way to Starbuck. That being the case, it is far more likely number 12 is someone more highly placed and in a pivotal role. I submit 2 likely candidates: Laura Roselin and William Adama.

    Roselin has already given several clues as to why she could be number 12: Shared visions with Six. Visions of Leoben. I can go on, but here's why I don't believe she is the one: If she is fulfilling the role of the dieing leader as recorded by Pythias prophesy, since the dieing leader is not supposed to live to see Earth, then Laura cannot be 12. As a cylon, she would reincarnate into the next body and therefore be able to see Earth.

    So, for me, that leaves Bill Adama. Supporting evidence: Tigh is a cylon, so human cylon models go back before, or at the very least, during the first war. Thanks to Sharon (Athena not Boomer) and Tyrol, we know that cylons can have children with humans. This would cover for Zach and Lee Adama. Given Adama's father's career choice as a lawyer (not a very interesting career for a cylon) the fact that William Adama is an officer of the Colonial fleet (a very interesting career for a cylon) would put him in an ideal position. Further questions: Why did he have the crew disconnect all network links on the Galactica? Did he do this on the Valkyrie? I doubt it. Furthermore, how was it that the cylons were able to so easily locate Bulldog's stealth viper during Valkyrie's reconnaissance mission into cylon space? The simple question remains: How is Adama always in the right position to save the day?

    The rest, I leave to you to speculate.



    I think you are mistaken. If I remember correctly, the final five cannot be resurrected.
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  • Avatar of ElmoKajaky

    ElmoKajaky

    [71]Apr 6, 2008
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    mamckinney wrote:

    So, for me, that leaves Bill Adama. Supporting evidence: Tigh is a cylon, so human cylon models go back before, or at the very least, during the first war.

    Interesting speculation, but I think we have no reason to believe human Cylon models must be that old because a fully grown human could have been replaced with a human Cylon model at any time. Just give the human Cylon model the same (or reasonably similar) memories, kill or abduct the real human, replace him or her with the Cylon, and voila.

    Remember when they found a real human that looked like #6? They obviously used her as a model; just strange that they would forget to kill the original model in that case...

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    Invader_of_53

    [72]Apr 6, 2008
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    I don't think Kara is a "Cyclone". It doesn't account for why she's getting those headaches and intuition about Earth.

    I've also been thinking about Kara's reappearance. There's definitely something fishy. She doesn't realise: that she's lost two months of time, her Viper went crunch and that she's flying in a shiny new one, and that her hair is longer. And how did she manage to reappear at the Ionian nebula, just as the fleet did? She doesn't seem to indicate that she was waiting there long. Based on Kara's account, it seems that she came into the Solar system via, yes, the Great Red Spot on Jupiter, but I have to wonder how she got to the nebula. It's one thing to go into one gas planet and out another, but how'd she arrive at a cloud of star dust?

    I think there's a definite connection between what happened to Kara and the Cylons (recall the Leoben spectre telling her about that place between life and death, which is where Number Three kept trying to get a grip on), but I think this will lead into something else. It's been implied that the Cylon God is a rogue Lord of Kobol, so I think it's more of an emphasis that the humans and Cylons are following a certain path together.

    I've also long thought Roslin is a Cylon for months, but lately I've gotten to the point where I've almost given up on speculating.

    ElmoKajaky wrote:

    Interesting speculation, but I think we have no reason to believe human Cylon models must be that old because a fully grown human could have been replaced with a human Cylon model at any time. Just give the human Cylon model the same (or reasonably similar) memories, kill or abduct the real human, replace him or her with the Cylon, and voila.

    Remember when they found a real human that looked like #6? They obviously used her as a model; just strange that they would forget to kill the original model in that case...



    Nope. Sorry. One of the canonical rules revolving around the Cylons is that they were never real people. The models are only based on personality archetypes of humanity, no one specificially in terms of looks and the such, so I have no idea what you're talking about regarding a real human that looks like... any of the Cylons.

    Light_Destroyer wrote:
    If I remember correctly, the final five cannot be resurrected.


    You better check your calculations. It's never been stated, officially and especially not in the show, that the Final Five cannot resurrect. It seems we know just as much about them as every character on the show does.
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  • Avatar of ribex

    ribex

    [73]Apr 6, 2008
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    ElmoKajaky wrote:
    mamckinney wrote:

    So, for me, that leaves Bill Adama. Supporting evidence: Tigh is a cylon, so human cylon models go back before, or at the very least, during the first war.

    Interesting speculation, but I think we have no reason to believe human Cylon models must be that old because a fully grown human could have been replaced with a human Cylon model at any time. Just give the human Cylon model the same (or reasonably similar) memories, kill or abduct the real human, replace him or her with the Cylon, and voila.

    Remember when they found a real human that looked like #6? They obviously used her as a model; just strange that they would forget to kill the original model in that case...

    Wait, what episode was that? I don't remember anything like that happening.

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    inveiglethis

    [74]Apr 6, 2008
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    ElmoKajaky wrote:
    mamckinney wrote:

    So, for me, that leaves Bill Adama. Supporting evidence: Tigh is a cylon, so human cylon models go back before, or at the very least, during the first war.

    Interesting speculation, but I think we have no reason to believe human Cylon models must be that old because a fully grown human could have been replaced with a human Cylon model at any time. Just give the human Cylon model the same (or reasonably similar) memories, kill or abduct the real human, replace him or her with the Cylon, and voila.

    Remember when they found a real human that looked like #6? They obviously used her as a model; just strange that they would forget to kill the original model in that case...

    I'm a bit new to the show, but all of you who were shocked that Tigh is not human because he's old...what about the Preacher (sorry -- I can't remember his character'sname or Cylon number -- played by Dean Stockwell from Quantum Leap -- just that he liked to spit on religion)...? Tigh's obviously prematurely white (think Steve Martin) but even so he can't be much older than Preacher! I'm putting my money on Adama, too -- there's a good chance that his wife was a Cylon as well (who died before they figured out how to regenerate). Strange that the Final Five aren't able to be reborn -- given their age spread! I mean, if all five of them were as old as Tigh, that'd make a lot more sense but...I ain't complaining!
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    Sektos

    [75]Apr 6, 2008
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    inveiglethis wrote:
    ElmoKajaky wrote:
    mamckinney wrote:

    So, for me, that leaves Bill Adama. Supporting evidence: Tigh is a cylon, so human cylon models go back before, or at the very least, during the first war.

    Interesting speculation, but I think we have no reason to believe human Cylon models must be that old because a fully grown human could have been replaced with a human Cylon model at any time. Just give the human Cylon model the same (or reasonably similar) memories, kill or abduct the real human, replace him or her with the Cylon, and voila.

    Remember when they found a real human that looked like #6? They obviously used her as a model; just strange that they would forget to kill the original model in that case...

    I'm a bit new to the show, but all of you who were shocked that Tigh is not human because he's old...what about the Preacher (sorry -- I can't remember his character'sname or Cylon number -- played by Dean Stockwell from Quantum Leap -- just that he liked to spit on religion)...? Tigh's obviously prematurely white (think Steve Martin) but even so he can't be much older than Preacher! I'm putting my money on Adama, too -- there's a good chance that his wife was a Cylon as well (who died before they figured out how to regenerate). Strange that the Final Five aren't able to be reborn -- given their age spread! I mean, if all five of them were as old as Tigh, that'd make a lot more sense but...I ain't complaining!


    Its the fact he REALLY IS that old; its not false memories or body made to look that old. He fought in two wars (confirmed)which includes the first cylon war and has known adama for over 20 years
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    MajLorne

    [76]Apr 6, 2008
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    inveiglethis wrote:
    I'm a bit new to the show, but all of you who were shocked that Tigh is not human because he's old...what about the Preacher (sorry -- I can't remember his character'sname or Cylon number -- played by Dean Stockwell from Quantum Leap -- just that he liked to spit on religion)...? Tigh's obviously prematurely white (think Steve Martin) but even so he can't be much older than Preacher! I'm putting my money on Adama, too -- there's a good chance that his wife was a Cylon as well (who died before they figured out how to regenerate). Strange that the Final Five aren't able to be reborn -- given their age spread! I mean, if all five of them were as old as Tigh, that'd make a lot more sense but...I ain't complaining!
    The Dean Stockwell character is called Cavill I think. And who's to say all Cylons had to be young? I think the Cylons were pretty smart to have a 'wide age spread' so this way it makes it harder to suspect an 'old man' like Col. Tigh.
    Edited on 04/06/2008 11:00am
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    MajLorne

    [77]Apr 6, 2008
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    Invader_of_53 wrote:
    I don't think Kara is a "Cyclone". It doesn't account for why she's getting those headaches and intuition about Earth. I've also been thinking about Kara's reappearance. There's definitely something fishy. She doesn't realise: that she's lost two months of time, her Viper went crunch and that she's flying in a shiny new one, and that her hair is longer. And how did she manage to reappear at the Ionian nebula, just as the fleet did? She doesn't seem to indicate that she was waiting there long. Based on Kara's account, it seems that she came into the Solar system via, yes, the Great Red Spot on Jupiter, but I have to wonder how she got to the nebula. It's one thing to go into one gas planet and out another, but how'd she arrive at a cloud of star dust? I think there's a definite connection between what happened to Kara and the Cylons (recall the Leoben spectre telling her about that place between life and death, which is where Number Three kept trying to get a grip on), but I think this will lead into something else. It's been implied that the Cylon God is a rogue Lord of Kobol, so I think it's more of an emphasis that the humans and Cylons are following a certain path together. I've also long thought Roslin is a Cylon for months, but lately I've gotten to the point where I've almost given up on speculating.
    Lol, nice word play "Cyclone"

    But all very good points about Starbuck. Her appearance and her new and shinny viper... things just don't add up.

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    Myrddin19

    [78]Apr 6, 2008
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    Wow, I mean, wow! this has been one of the best episodes of one of the best series ever, I'm so glad BSG is finally back that I almost forgot about this being the last season... sigh.

    The series haven't lost any of its strength, dramatism, and overall quality, and the characters are so well build... many shows could learn from this one. As for the episode, well, I didn't see it coming when Kara went after Roslin, I don't think she's gonna kill her but it was the hell of a cliffhanger. I'm with the people that think that Adama or Roslin could be the final Cylon model, by the way.

    Kara's return is a masterwork piece of manipulation, probably to avert attention from the now self conscious new four Cylon models... The Cylons simply add the mistery of the brand new viper to have everyone off their feet, worried about traitors in their midst, and making all evidence point to Kara so that the other infiltrates can go about their business. Oh, God, I've just realised that the pic in the banner of this webpage portraits the four secret cylons and Adama, it seems prophetic.

    I love how Gaius is developing, and I must say I don't believe he prays for the life of the kid out of compassion, I have the feeling that he's driven by self-loathing, he hates what he has become, but he's too much of a coward to finish it, so he's loooking for a easy way out... anyone with me on this?

    All in all, I give the episode a 10, can't wait to see more of this season!

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    ode_ssa

    [79]Apr 6, 2008
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    I'd really like to hear where you heard that the final five cannot be resurrected...

    And as for the way they created the humans cylons models, it's almost shown in the "razor" episode, where we get a glimpse of humans being torn appart to be analysed, and even maybe they took part of those humans to incorporate it with their own technology... So we pretty much know WHEN the humans models were made...And it's logical that they made some of them old to get a large variaty of models.

    This leave a lot of questions about the final five, which i believe are something "different" than the other seven we know.

    It's also said in the "razor" episode by one of the hybrid that "kara will lead mankind to its own destruction", so I find it believable that she is a cylon, even if after reading all of your theories, I'm starting to change my mind.

    As for the Head Caprica that Baltar is seeing, i really believe that she is of his own creation, because of his mental breakdown, plus his connection to the one god.

    But what remains unexplained to me is how Shelly Godfree manage to "materialize" herself to the other members of the battlestar...

    Edited on 04/06/2008 11:18am
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [80]Apr 6, 2008
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    There has been no human model for Number Six. Maybe the other poster was thinking of Shelley Godfrey from "Six Degrees of Separation" in Season 1. She accused Baltar of collaborating with the Cylons to take down the defense mainframe on Caprica. Godfrey was just another copy of Number Six.

    The older Cylon's name is Brother Cavil. Well, Brother was his title, denoting a religious position even though he was skeptical of religion even before he was revealed as a Cylon.

    Interesting point below that Baltar prayed for the young boy Derrick out of self-loathing and not compassion. There seems to be a combination of the two. Baltar is clearly weary of his tumultuous life but I still think compassion was part of the motivation for his long prayer to God. If he were only acting out of self-pity and depression, he would have made that prayer immediately after Romo Lampkin and Lee abandoned him (after the trial was over). He also seemed enthusiastic and energetic enough to take advantage of the opportunity that Tracey offered him. ("Can you feel God's presence?")

    Those two scenes show that he wasn't entirely suicidal and distraught. Granted, he's a complex person so I'm sure we'll see more inconsistencies in his actions next week. (I mean inconsistencies in Baltar's motivations and actions, not the writing of the character. Baltar acts inconsistently the way many, if not all, real people do, which makes him that much more realistic as a flawed human figure.)
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