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Discussion-"He That Believeth In Me" (U.S. air date 4/4/08) (spoilers)

  • Avatar of DrLar

    DrLar

    [101]Apr 7, 2008
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    What an awesome episode!

    About Roslyn being a cylon because of the visions I could disagree, because the blood she was given to cure her illness was 1/2 cylon, so she has some cylon blood running thru her veins that could induce these visions.

    OMG (no pun intended) Baltar pulling a "Jesus", with robe, beard and even miracle, and even the "devil" speaking to his ear with a red dress, it's like seeing one of those Jesus movies.

    I'm still wondering what made the child healthy again..
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  • Avatar of Invader_of_53

    Invader_of_53

    [102]Apr 7, 2008
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    Everyone seems to have a collective orgasm regarding the Last Supper image with Ron Moore's commentary, but you same lot have completely overlooked that fact Aaron Douglas and Katee Sackhoff have commented that the image has been overanalysed and that cast at large doesn't believe there's anything significant to the photo based on how the photoshoot was arranged.

    But I will say that Adama cannot be a Cylon, and I don't need a photo to figure that out. If he were, then that means his sons are hybrids, which would not only decompose the importance of Nicky and Hera, but it would simultaneously and without severence rearrange the background of two main characters. Also, let's not forget that he has family - a father that's been supported by Lee and Romo - and there's a series currently in development that centres around Adama's ancestors. There is, at best, a .875 per cent probability that he's a toaster. Get over it and move on.

    The only piece on the last Cylon I'll speculate on is that there has to be a reason why they didn't respond to the music. Surely the Semi-Final Four will figure out that there's a missing comrade in their little group. I keep thinking that the last Cylon planted it, though I also suspect that the path towards Earth is also linked to the Cylons, and thus am reminded that "all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again." So my guess is Mister or Misses Last Cylon is linked to the path of Earth and are aware of their Cylon identity have been setting certain things in motion. It's been confirmed that they decided who the last Cylon is back about the end of Season 1, so I can't help but hark back to Moore's comments on the fact that they've left clues. If the Final-Final Cylon knows what they really are, then there should be signs... but that depends on what we know what to look for. Wow. That's longer than I how I had it in my head. But still, why didn't the Fifth follow the music? There's got to be something to that.

    I also have a theory regarding how Kara fits in with the Hybrid's warning in "Razor", but it's long-winded and I don't have it all figured out. Not that I think anyone really cares, but I think there's some room to interpret his/its statement. It cannot be as clear-cut as it seems.

    Kondix wrote:
    1. The child of the chief versus the child of Helo and Boomer:
    Chief is one of the final five, those dont have copies, those are not integrated with the rest of the seven models. Therefore those 5 have other characteristicas, from rumors we can assume that the final five also dont have other copies! So the child of Boomer and Helo IS special... it is yet the only biological evidence of multiplecopied Cylon models! Remember that those final 5 are most probably unique beeings! The final five ALSO dont react to those chemicals which made those Cylons sick at the end of the pilot.


    Boomer didn't get sick, either, so any point in that is moot. I should also be a douche and correct you in that Boomer and Helo didn't have a baby. The Sharon-later-to-be-named-Athena and Helo had the baby. I also want to know why everyone keeps making these large leaps in assumptions regarding the Final Five. We don't know whether or not there are other copies and can therefore resurrect. Was there a memo sent out on this that's not made it's way to me?
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  • Avatar of efeatherston

    efeatherston

    [103]Apr 7, 2008
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    My only complain, it was too fracking short!!! After having the marathon of episodes during the week, the hour went by way too fast!

    Random thoughts:

    Brother Cavell - I think he knows more about the final 5 and what is going on than he lets on. Watching the marathon this week, he wanted very much to stop D'Anna from seeing/talking about the final 5. In the previews we hear six tell him to stop lobotomizing the raiders, who seem to be able to recognize the final 5.

    Starbuck's shiny new ship - My thoughts immediately jumped to the old series, Count Iblis and the 'angels'

    Starbuck - Had a random thought. What if it turns out that Starbuck is also now dying like Roslyn? 2 dying leaders, each wanting to go in a different direction to get to earth?

    Balter - such an amazingly complex character. So into himself, yet he truly was willing to sacrifice himself to save the child.

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  • Avatar of Ranagan

    Ranagan

    [104]Apr 7, 2008
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    I've got mixed feelings about this premiere episode for Season 4. It has its qualities and it's bad. But what i want to know is the whole Baltar storyline. Healing powers? Where did that come form. Also this is about the third time someone was going to kill him and they just stopped because he wanted to die! Sometimes i wish that they would just kill his character off and be done with it.

    Onto Starbuck, what the frak is going on there. I'm 99.9% sure that she is a cylon. New ship, convenient memories, EAtrh?! I can't wait to see how the writers are going to explain that enigma

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  • Avatar of tripping82

    tripping82

    [105]Apr 7, 2008
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    I love'd thast Baltar story line more than the Kara storyline. James Callis is a brilliant actor.

    My conclusion is that Baltar is either the hand of God or is the luckiest guy ever. Being worshipped by all those women - he must be in heaven.
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  • Avatar of mamckinney

    mamckinney

    [106]Apr 7, 2008
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    Light_Destroyer wrote:
    I think you are mistaken. If I remember correctly, the final five cannot be resurrected.


    I don't recall anything about this, and I have seen all the episodes. If you can point out where this is mentioned, I'd appreciate it.
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  • Avatar of mamckinney

    mamckinney

    [107]Apr 7, 2008
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    Light_Destroyer wrote:
    I think you are mistaken. If I remember correctly, the final five cannot be resurrected.


    One more thing, it doesn't really do any good to simply say that I am mistaken, unless you think I am totally off base. I said many things. So I ask you, I am mistaken about what?
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  • Avatar of tripping82

    tripping82

    [108]Apr 7, 2008
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    mamckinney wrote:
    Light_Destroyer wrote:
    I think you are mistaken. If I remember correctly, the final five cannot be resurrected.
    One more thing, it doesn't really do any good to simply say that I am mistaken, unless you think I am totally off base. I said many things. So I ask you, I am mistaken about what?
    It has never been said on the show that the 5 cannot be resurrected. We have only ASSUMED they cannot resurrect.
    Edited on 04/07/2008 12:15pm
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  • Avatar of mamckinney

    mamckinney

    [109]Apr 7, 2008
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    ElmoKajaky wrote:
    mamckinney wrote:

    So, for me, that leaves Bill Adama. Supporting evidence: Tigh is a cylon, so human cylon models go back before, or at the very least, during the first war.

    Interesting speculation, but I think we have no reason to believe human Cylon models must be that old because a fully grown human could have been replaced with a human Cylon model at any time. Just give the human Cylon model the same (or reasonably similar) memories, kill or abduct the real human, replace him or her with the Cylon, and voila.

    Remember when they found a real human that looked like #6? They obviously used her as a model; just strange that they would forget to kill the original model in that case...



    Likewise, your's is an interesting speculation, that they replaced humans. However, I must disagree about your human-six connection. Six has always been a cylon and there are no human analogs of her.
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  • Avatar of mamckinney

    mamckinney

    [110]Apr 7, 2008
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    hazelnut144 wrote:
    As for Lee, I don't know, I just think it would feel contrived to make him the final cylon. Plus the fact that Adama is his father, and he has an established childhood. So that, for me, eliminates all the main candidates. Since the final cylon is supposed to be a big reveal, it has to be someone that's been around since the beginning.


    If you are referring to my speculation for the final cylon, I never said Lee. I said William Adama, his father (A.K.A. Admiral Adama). And there is plenty of evidence to support that speculation. If he indeed is a cylon, it has already been established that it is possible for humans and cylons to produce a human-cylon hybrid. Athena and Helo were the first to have one during the series, and Chief Tyrol and Cally had the second. Remember Tyrol was revealed as a cylon at the end of season 3.
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  • Avatar of august29

    august29

    [111]Apr 7, 2008
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    In razor, the old guy in the tub, He warned the xo that kara would lead humanity to its doom. But the xo was not able to relay the message to the pegasus bridge because her signal is once again jammed. The old guy then mentioned that everything had happened before and will happen again.

    now starbuck reappeared and is hell bent in wanting the fleet to follow a different path she's basing on instinct. I don't think she's the final cylon. More like a clone with a downloaded memory of what they know about kara up to the time of her death.

    hate to say it, but i'm also following a gut feeling, regardless whatever interview revealed (red herring) I think its Admiral Adama. No one else could have commanded respect from the human cylon when she saw the face of the final 5.

    again, I like to recall in season 1. Somebody left a note at Adama's desk indicating there are 12 human cylon models. Its a note he left for himself when he came out of his human sleep mode. He found himself herding the last human race. He must've belong to the group that believes co existence with their creators.

    speculation...

    Who knows, the real Adama discovered and perfected how to transfer his complete conciousness to a human like replica. He's way of "life everlasting". The other models were his colleauges who somehow, lost conciousness that they were human once and had followed a protocol on a survival instinct that were originally programmed in the cylons as they serve as humanity's explorer's and defenders in deep space exploration. That would follow the caprica plot line.

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  • Avatar of copygeek

    copygeek

    [112]Apr 7, 2008
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    august29 wrote:
    again, I like to recall in season 1. Somebody left a note at Adama's desk indicating there are 12 human cylon models. Its a note he left for himself when he came out of his human sleep mode. He found himself herding the last human race. He must've belong to the group that believes co existence with their creators.

    Actually, the note was probably left by Baltar. During the miniseries Baltar was told by Caprica Six, just before his house was destroyed, that there were 12 cylon models. Baltar was the only one with that information throughout the miniseries, so it is logical to assume that he was the one who left the note.

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  • Avatar of mamckinney

    mamckinney

    [113]Apr 7, 2008
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    DrLar wrote:
    What an awesome episode! About Roslyn being a cylon because of the visions I could disagree, because the blood she was given to cure her illness was 1/2 cylon, so she has some cylon blood running thru her veins that could induce these visions. OMG (no pun intended) Baltar pulling a "Jesus", with robe, beard and even miracle, and even the "devil" speaking to his ear with a red dress, it's like seeing one of those Jesus movies. I'm still wondering what made the child healthy again..
    Let's not forget that peoples bodies can self repair. Have you never had a cold or the flu? Why didn't you die from it? Granted, the childs illness is more severe, but my nephew has had a run-in with viral meningitis (sp?), a particularly nasty disease, and survived. Let's not all go "miracle!" just because Baltar prayed a prayer. On the other hand, I'm also a Christian, and do believe in the power of miracles, so I don't automatically discount it. But, for goodness sake, don't forget this is a TV show! The end result is what the writers want it to be.
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  • Avatar of tripping82

    tripping82

    [114]Apr 7, 2008
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    copygeek wrote:

    august29 wrote:
    again, I like to recall in season 1. Somebody left a note at Adama's desk indicating there are 12 human cylon models. Its a note he left for himself when he came out of his human sleep mode. He found himself herding the last human race. He must've belong to the group that believes co existence with their creators.

    Actually, the note was probably left by Baltar. During the miniseries Baltar was told by Caprica Six, just before his house was destroyed, that there were 12 cylon models. Baltar was the only one with that information throughout the miniseries, so it is logical to assume that he was the one who left the note.



    If memory serves correctly RDM confirmed that Baltar left the note during a Podcast.
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  • Avatar of mamckinney

    mamckinney

    [115]Apr 7, 2008
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    Invader_of_53 wrote:
    Everyone seems to have a collective orgasm regarding the Last Supper image with Ron Moore's commentary, but you same lot have completely overlooked that fact Aaron Douglas and Katee Sackhoff have commented that the image has been overanalysed and that cast at large doesn't believe there's anything significant to the photo based on how the photoshoot was arranged.

    But I will say that Adama cannot be a Cylon, and I don't need a photo to figure that out. If he were, then that means his sons are hybrids, which would not only decompose the importance of Nicky and Hera, but it would simultaneously and without severence rearrange the background of two main characters. Also, let's not forget that he has family - a father that's been supported by Lee and Romo - and there's a series currently in development that centres around Adama's ancestors. There is, at best, a .875 per cent probability that he's a toaster. Get over it and move on.

    The only piece on the last Cylon I'll speculate on is that there has to be a reason why they didn't respond to the music. Surely the Semi-Final Four will figure out that there's a missing comrade in their little group. I keep thinking that the last Cylon planted it, though I also suspect that the path towards Earth is also linked to the Cylons, and thus am reminded that "all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again." So my guess is Mister or Misses Last Cylon is linked to the path of Earth and are aware of their Cylon identity have been setting certain things in motion. It's been confirmed that they decided who the last Cylon is back about the end of Season 1, so I can't help but hark back to Moore's comments on the fact that they've left clues. If the Final-Final Cylon knows what they really are, then there should be signs... but that depends on what we know what to look for. Wow. That's longer than I how I had it in my head. But still, why didn't the Fifth follow the music? There's got to be something to that.

    I also have a theory regarding how Kara fits in with the Hybrid's warning in "Razor", but it's long-winded and I don't have it all figured out. Not that I think anyone really cares, but I think there's some room to interpret his/its statement. It cannot be as clear-cut as it seems.

    Kondix wrote:
    1. The child of the chief versus the child of Helo and Boomer:
    Chief is one of the final five, those dont have copies, those are not integrated with the rest of the seven models. Therefore those 5 have other characteristicas, from rumors we can assume that the final five also dont have other copies! So the child of Boomer and Helo IS special... it is yet the only biological evidence of multiplecopied Cylon models! Remember that those final 5 are most probably unique beeings! The final five ALSO dont react to those chemicals which made those Cylons sick at the end of the pilot.


    Boomer didn't get sick, either, so any point in that is moot. I should also be a douche and correct you in that Boomer and Helo didn't have a baby. The Sharon-later-to-be-named-Athena and Helo had the baby. I also want to know why everyone keeps making these large leaps in assumptions regarding the Final Five. We don't know whether or not there are other copies and can therefore resurrect. Was there a memo sent out on this that's not made it's way to me?


    Where can I begin? Lose the 'tude dude! While I support the right of people to say what they want, that doesn't mean that they should. From the very outset, you start off in a highly confrontational mindset. Shall I demonstrate? "Everyone seems to have a collective orgasm...", "Get over it and move on.", "I should also be a douche and correct you..." Be a better citizen next time and find a better way to say things.
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  • Avatar of Mangalore

    Mangalore

    [116]Apr 7, 2008
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    Seems like the guys in the SFX department made some extra shifts to crank up the juice for the season opener. Loved the battle, somehow they seem to have used a more refined approach to the editing and scenes. Obviously this would be only half good but I also liked how it so easily returned to a good story pace after the cliffhanger of season 3.
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    michaelalan

    [117]Apr 7, 2008
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    I think it was in the mini series but one of the raiders scanned either Apollo or Strabuck, I forget which, but it was masked as that scan is what caused the vipers to shut down on the newer models. Maybe that's not it at all, maybe that raider recognized Apollo/Starbuck for what they he/she was, cyclon.

    But, I also think that Bill Adama could be the final Cyclon and that the Razor series was a red herring. Instead of him being the hero of his little memory, he was actually captured and cloned or reprogrammed. If you remember he also has the power to project like the other cyclons (well, in that case, Baltar too).

    But then, if the Final Five cyclons are in secondary positions, then Den is my suspect in that scenario. She is Lee's wife, basically second in command to Lee. But before Billy died, she was working an angle which would get her close to the President.

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  • Avatar of InfamousJR

    InfamousJR

    [118]Apr 7, 2008
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    mamckinney wrote:
    Light_Destroyer wrote:
    I think you are mistaken. If I remember correctly, the final five cannot be resurrected.
    I don't recall anything about this, and I have seen all the episodes. If you can point out where this is mentioned, I'd appreciate it.

    This idea comes from an interview that Douglas did. Basically he infered that so far into the season of the episodes they have shot there have not been other copies of the final four cylons. But again, like everyone else he does not have all the facts...only the producers know the entire truth.

    "Adds Douglas: "So far, in scripts, there are no multiple copies of us, unlike with the other Cylons, so maybe we're one-offs. Does that mean we can die?""

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  • Avatar of adewusi13

    adewusi13

    [119]Apr 7, 2008
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    This was such an awesome episode. I'm really glad starbuck is back. I'm with Apollo, I don't even care if she is a cylon, which I don't think she is.
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    Idbeolderifiwas

    [120]Apr 7, 2008
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    InfamousJR wrote:

    mamckinney wrote:
    Light_Destroyer wrote:
    I think you are mistaken. If I remember correctly, the final five cannot be resurrected.
    I don't recall anything about this, and I have seen all the episodes. If you can point out where this is mentioned, I'd appreciate it.

    This idea comes from an interview that Douglas did. Basically he infered that so far into the season of the episodes they have shot there have not been other copies of the final four cylons. But again, like everyone else he does not have all the facts...only the producers know the entire truth.

    "Adds Douglas: "So far, in scripts, there are no multiple copies of us, unlike with the other Cylons, so maybe we're one-offs. Does that mean we can die?""



    Interesting...I wonder just how much of that is true though. One thing I do have to note about the resurrection of the final five is this: IF they are on some kind of secret mission, having a second copy anywhere would ruin that mission. It would be like when Brother Cavil was confronted by his other copy. If he was just suspected as a Cylon he could have said he wasn't and at probably get thrown in the brig for his troubles, but he wouldn't be killed. Having 2 copies of the same Cylon instantly gives them away and they're killed. Also, I don't believe they can be resurrected because there is nothing to resurrect them. The resurrection ships obviously don't have copies of the 5 lying around, or all of the other Cylons would know who they are! So if they die they're too far from home to Resurrect, and die.

    So to summarize they probably CAN resurrect, but they 1. Have no copies of themselves on the Resurrection ship and 2. Are too far from home to have their consciousness downloaded to a new body.

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