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Discussion-"He That Believeth In Me" (U.S. air date 4/4/08) (spoilers)

  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [141]Apr 8, 2008
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    Invader_of_53 wrote:
    ebv001 wrote:
    Also, I think its very clear that the 7 cannot "feel", even though Six claims she can, the final 5. If she could feel that the other models are near, how do you explain torturing Tigh during the occupation of New Caprica and not being able to detect he was a human model. Seems like Caprica Six is trying to BS her way out of the brig.

    I think it has to do with the Final Five being "awakened". There's clearly no physical switch being flipped; the sudden awareness seems to be done on some ethereal level and seems to now be giving off some kind of aura. I mean, the four don't have any real proof, but "just know" they're Cylons.

    The problem with that explanation is Athena's failure to recognize either Anders or Chief Tyrol when she ran into them on the flight deck. Anders and Tyrol were already self-aware at that point.

    I think most of the Cylons are incapable of detecting the Final Five, except for Caprica Six and the Cylon Raider(s). There has always been something different about Caprica Six. She's the only Cylon who sees an imaginary figure that she believes is real. (Maybe she's right.) She has had self-doubt about her identity even though she knows that she is a Cylon and always did. (At first Boomer didn't know she was a Cylon. Then she began to have doubts about her identity. Now she seems to have turned her back on humanity completely, though this could change.)

    As for the identity of the individual that D'Anna apologized to, it's very possible that it was Saul Tigh. It makes perfect sense. But I'm still open to the possibility that it's someone else.
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    crito84

    [142]Apr 8, 2008
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    Is it just Caprica Six who can feel the Five, or is it all the sixes? The reason I ask is because in the preview for this week, there is a new version of Six who says that the Five are near, followed later with her wanting the others to stop lobotomizing the raiders. Maybe there is something in the raiders' brains or something about them that is connected with the Five. But it seems that the Sixes are connected to the Five somehow.
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [143]Apr 8, 2008
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    It's possible. So far, we've only seen Caprica Six among the actually existing Sixes (Head Six doesn't count) since the four of the Final Five became self-aware.
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    Invader_of_53

    [144]Apr 9, 2008
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    palpatine19 wrote:

    Okay firstly BSG best show on TV by far, first post so be nice...

    Adama's Will or Lee cannot be the final Cylon, too much back story in regards to them, would leave huge holes in the stories continuity.

    They have enough problems with that issue when they made Ty a toaster. As he was involved in the first Cylon War, doesn't match up with the time line given..(1st Cylon war lasting many years, no human model's we know of...50 years of silence suddenly they reappear with SIX first human model seen). In order for the time-line to be consistent that would mean that there was at least one,

    human model around. Which would make it Ty, you would think his postion in the Cylon Hierarchy would be alot more prominent than what it is. As he would be the first human model. So as much as i like the fact that Ty is a Cylon, it doesn't really make sense..unless someone wants to explain it to me.

    Roselin is a good guess, with her visions and leadership role..(referring to 3's reaction when seeing the final 5). Roselin is kinda taking on a Moses type role leading her people out of Exodus. it would make SENSE for her to be the final 5..mainly because yet again we can assume the final Cylon is different from all the rest, as She/He didn't come when called by the music. It is either her or someone that is not a HUGE part in the story flow. Roselin (Moses Old Testament), Baltar (Jesus New Testament)??

    Starbuck is a different story, i have no idea where they are going with that, especially after Razor, but i can't wait to see what the writers have in store for her!!

    Any way these are my thoughts, and theories..let the hole punching begin



    I brought this up once, but it's defintely worth repeating. I honestly think the Final Five have something to do with Earth. "All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again" - I can't help but feel it bleeds as a burning clue. Does anyone really think that it's a simple coincidence that there are five secret Cylon models and five priests that built a temple to the One Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken (which may very well be the Cylon God that dissented from the rest of the Lords of Kobol)? That the temple the five priests built also contained a clue to Earth? That four of the five "woke up" just as they got to a major point in the path to Earth, as made evident by Kara's sudden reappearance at the same point, who claims to have been to Earth and knows the path?

    If I'm right, then in addition to being a retroactive spoiler (and in that case... sorry), this would help explain why Tigh can be a Cylon and still have fought in the Cylon War because that would mean probably all of them predate the creation of the Cylons. Yeah, you heard me. I'm still wrapping my head around how they could be so old and yet not be aware of the Cylonic identity, though my rough theory goes as such: the Final Five were the inspiriation for humanoid models. I mean, has it ever been stated, in the show or from official sources that the 12 models were created all at once? Perhaps the Final Five came to the Centurians as a sort of divine intervention and introduced the change in their behaviour and giving them the idea of becoming human. However, when they decided to slaughter humanity, they abandoned them and infilterated the Colonies and cloaked their memories so as to not be detected and destroyed by the other Cylons. This would explain why Tigh was in the Cylon War and is so anti-Cylon as well as his, Anders's, and Tyrol's role in the New Caprica resistence; though clearly not aware of what they are, their Cylon nature could be driving them on a subconscious level. My guess is that the Final Five are some branch of Cylons that were created on Earth, did like those that will come afterwards, and an exodus to the Twelve Colonies followed in which the Five, in some shape or form, came. How this works since Tigh has clearly aged and three are younger than he and none are apparently even centenarians, much less thousands of years old, I don't have a clue. I had a theory that they are decendents of people like Nicky and Hera, but the maths don't add up, so my faith in my theory goes limp there.

    I was also thinking about Kara's role as a harbinger of doom. I think it's inevitable and not much in the room of a mislead. Remember that Baltar's Number Six said that she, as a self-proclaimed Angel, is guiding him towards the end of the human race. Seeing as how she's been right on so far and how the first Hybrid was fairly accurate himself in predicting the boxing of one of the Significant Seven and the awakening of four of the Final Five, I'd say it's going to happen. Observing his comments, my guess is that Earth is not meant for the Colonial refugess; I think it's meant for the Cylons, or at least their co-mingled offspring. Where I'm sure that all of that has happened before, will play out yet again. So I don't think there is fabrication in she or her testament of Earth. I think that if she guides them towards this path, in some way, the human race will be annihilated in the process. How Roslin plays in this, I don't know. I can only suspect that while both are right, Roslin will lead them through a much nicer route, while Kara's will be frought with turmoil. Then again, as I stated, she seems to have been a signpost, so why anyone who carved the path would want them following a herald of the end is great big question mark. But, like I said, maybe Earth isn't meant for humanity.

    crito84 wrote:
    Is it just Caprica Six who can feel the Five, or is it all the sixes? The reason I ask is because in the preview for this week, there is a new version of Six who says that the Five are near, followed later with her wanting the others to stop lobotomizing the raiders. Maybe there is something in the raiders' brains or something about them that is connected with the Five. But it seems that the Sixes are connected to the Five somehow.


    I think it's a little more simple than that. I suspect they (the advert suggests that it's the Cavils) are lobotomising the Raiders because at least one of them learned that the Final Five are in the fleet via that scan one did on Anders. By cutting out their brains, they can keep the knowledge from getting out, either to more Raiders or the other Cylons.
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  • Avatar of ribex

    ribex

    [145]Apr 9, 2008
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    How do we know what was meant when the old-man-hybrid (Razor) said "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end"? I think "to its end" has several possible meanings.

    • Humans are all killed by Cylons
    • Humans are all killed in some other way: disease, ship disasters, sucked into a black hole, etc
    • Humans die off somewhat slowly (several generations of declining/no birthrate)
    • Humans are converted into Cylons
    • Humans are changed in some other way that they are fundamentally changed but not necessarily for the worst

    (The full quote: "Kara Thrace will lead the human race to its end, she is the herald of the apocalypse, the harbinger of death; they must not follow her.")

    I just get annoyed when people say he said she will lead the human race "to its doom" which is not the same. (Also, all the rampant misspellings of character names! Say it with me, kids: Tigh. D'Anna. Roslin. Tyrol.)

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    palpatine19

    [146]Apr 9, 2008
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    Where is everyone getting the histories of Kobol, and the colonies?. and the history of the gods?. 5 priests, he who cannot be mentioned..etc etc. Was all this explained in earlier seasons, and I wasnt paying attention. Or are people reading Wiki's and such. i guess i need a history lesson, before i will be able to REALLY appreciate this season
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    tomaszgadomski

    [147]Apr 9, 2008
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    What about Dee? She's not present at the supper. And while never an important player, she is now in the very background of the story. She had one line in the season opener I think. On the other hand, from Cylon's point of view, she was connected to Admiral's son, she has access to all important people, and I think what's the most important she's so unnoticeable!

    Sorry for my English.I do my best!

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [148]Apr 9, 2008
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    There are so many main characters that they can't highlight all of them in each episode. Almost all of the main actors have been absent from at least 1 episode in previous seasons. Even Athena didn't have that much screen time last week. She may not have that much time this week either but I think we'll see Boomer again.
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    hazelnut144

    [149]Apr 9, 2008
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    I was having a discussion with one of my friends about possible cylons that no one would see coming, and we settled on Elosha. Looking at the final five, all except for one are military, so I was thinking that maybe the final should be a civilian. I believe someone earlier in this topic said that RDM has known who the final cylon is since season one? And Elosha could fit. She had the ear of Roslin, she basically set Roslin on the path to Earth, and I believe that RDM said that if Billy had died on Kobol instead, as he was originally supposed to, Elosha would have ended up having some negative influence on Roslin during second season. She's been there since the beginning, never hugely noticeable, but present. And I don't believe that RDM ever claimed that the final five couldn't reincarnate, but I don't believe he has said anything to dispel that belief either, meaning that everyone is ruling out dead characters. Zarek is also a possibility, although given the fact that he seems to have disappeared of the show despite being the Vice President of the Colonies, I'm not really sure. Gaeta and Dee, are also possibilities, but it seems too much like putting all the cylons' eggs in one basket. I mean why would ALL of them except for Tory be on Galactica. I know Sam wasn't to begin with, but even having three of them start out on Galactica seems a bit too crowded.

    And I have to agree with the previous poster about spelling. Try to spell the characters' names properly please.

    Edited on 04/09/2008 5:01pm
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    Idbeolderifiwas

    [150]Apr 9, 2008
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    Who is Elosha? The priest who died on Kobol?

    My condensed version of Final 5 Resurrection:
    They probably CAN resurrect, but they 1. Have no copies of themselves on the Resurrection ship and 2. Are too far from home to have their consciousness downloaded to a new body.
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    hazelnut144

    [151]Apr 9, 2008
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    Yeah. The priest. And perhaps Kobol was close enough to the cylon home world for her to download? It's a possibility.
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    Idbeolderifiwas

    [152]Apr 9, 2008
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    hazelnut144 wrote:
    Yeah. The priest. And perhaps Kobol was close enough to the cylon home world for her to download? It's a possibility.


    Possibly. We obviously don't know how close any of this is happening relative to other points in space like Caprica, Kobol, Cylon home world etc. Plus, that happened only months after they left the colonies, so they could have still been relatively close to the Cylon world.

    The Cylons must have been building resurrection ships by then, because I'm sure that despite their capabilities their ships still take a long time to build, not to mention that they would not have foreseen any humans surviving and would therefore have no need for resurrection ships.

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    123home123

    [153]Apr 9, 2008
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    Elosha would probably get a ho-hum "that's it?" response from a lot of people. We don't know much about her personality and she was never really a vital character in the series. In addition, it's been so long since she got killed off that even many fans will only have a vague recollection of her.

    I remember her (partly because I have spent a lot of time fixing and adding credits to the guide) but she doesn't elicit much of an emotional response from me. I didn't hate her. I didn't like her. I didn't spend much time focusing on her in any of the episodes in which she appeared.
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    efeatherston

    [154]Apr 10, 2008
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    Idbeolderifiwas wrote:
    hazelnut144 wrote:
    Yeah. The priest. And perhaps Kobol was close enough to the cylon home world for her to download? It's a possibility.
    Possibly. We obviously don't know how close any of this is happening relative to other points in space like Caprica, Kobol, Cylon home world etc. Plus, that happened only months after they left the colonies, so they could have still been relatively close to the Cylon world.

    The Cylons must have been building resurrection ships by then, because I'm sure that despite their capabilities their ships still take a long time to build, not to mention that they would not have foreseen any humans surviving and would therefore have no need for resurrection ships.

    One problem with the concept of any of the final 5 downloading to Planet Cylon or a ressurrection ship....Wouldn't the 7 models have noticed these other spare bodies laying around the download chamber? Remember, the ressurection ship, we saw thousands of bodies, waiting, so if the final 5 downloaded the same way, one would expect some spare bodies for them to be laying around just in case.

    I haven't fully wrapped my head around it, but I think the final 5 are one of a kind models. RDM has said they are different from the 7. It hasn't be stated they can't download, but based on what I already described, If they do, they don't do it the same way as the 7.

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    Ronnomaru

    [155]Apr 10, 2008
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    Has it occurred to anyone that "Kara leading the human race to its end" can also just mean "the end of its journey", which is finding Earth? Might explain why the Razor hybrid calls her the "Herald of the Apocalypse", because it might just stand for the apocalypse for the Cylons instead of the human race.
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    ribex

    [156]Apr 10, 2008
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    Ronnomaru wrote:
    Has it occurred to anyone that "Kara leading the human race to its end" can also just mean "the end of its journey", which is finding Earth? Might explain why the Razor hybrid calls her the "Herald of the Apocalypse", because it might just stand for the apocalypse for the Cylons instead of the human race.

    Yes.

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    Lei_K

    [157]Apr 10, 2008
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    Ronnomaru wrote:
    Has it occurred to anyone that "Kara leading the human race to its end" can also just mean "the end of its journey", which is finding Earth? Might explain why the Razor hybrid calls her the "Herald of the Apocalypse", because it might just stand for the apocalypse for the Cylons instead of the human race.


    Yes, the hybrid tells Kindra that they must not follow Kara and that she he is the herald of the apocalypse. My thought on that was always, wait, didn't the apocalypse already happen for mankind? Maybe this apocalypse the hybrid is talking about is the one for the cylons, so of course it tells Kindra not to follow Kara. Then again, anything is possible really. It is Kara Thrace and if anyone was leading the human race to its ultimate end - or, more so, being a harbinger of doom - it could as well be her, though I tend not to believe this.
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    hazelnut144

    [158]Apr 10, 2008
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    123home123 wrote:
    Elosha would probably get a ho-hum "that's it?" response from a lot of people. We don't know much about her personality and she was never really a vital character in the series. In addition, it's been so long since she got killed off that even many fans will only have a vague recollection of her.

    I remember her (partly because I have spent a lot of time fixing and adding credits to the guide) but she doesn't elicit much of an emotional response from me. I didn't hate her. I didn't like her. I didn't spend much time focusing on her in any of the episodes in which she appeared.


    I guess it's not too likely, I just have a feeling that it is not someone that we are expecting, so reaching now. But I only really thought of her because I was re-watching the first three seasons, looking for possible cylons.
    Ronnomaru wrote:
    Has it occurred to anyone that "Kara leading the human race to its end" can also just mean "the end of its journey", which is finding Earth? Might explain why the Razor hybrid calls her the "Herald of the Apocalypse", because it might just stand for the apocalypse for the Cylons instead of the human race.


    And yes it occurred to me that the quote probably isn't as simple as it seems. It probably has some non-obvious meaning.
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    clos_vf

    [159]Apr 10, 2008
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    quick question: Once or if they finally get to earth is earth normal? No Cylons there? No cylon war there? No Cylon humans there to capture the last of the human race and destroy them? I have just heard that Earth is there destination havent heard about if its been taken over or if its free of Cylons.
    Edited on 04/10/2008 2:10pm
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    crito84

    [160]Apr 10, 2008
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    It's free of humans. The cylons are looking for Earth as well, following the fleet to the 13th tribe. If the cylons already knew where Earth was there would be no reason to follow them.
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