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Discussion - "No Exit" (2/13/09) (spoilers)

How would you rate this episode?

  • Avatar of roger767

    roger767

    [41]Feb 14, 2009
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    Can somebody explain the events of razor and the hybrids and why were there old centurian models there?? I forgot what happened, and how it relates with what we know now.
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  • Avatar of lunachan01

    lunachan01

    [42]Feb 14, 2009
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    Cavil was the first skin the five created so thats why he hates every body.
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  • Avatar of hazelnut144

    hazelnut144

    [43]Feb 14, 2009
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    123Home123 is right I think. The seven line WAS destroyed. They were talking about how three was boxed, and Ellen said "But that's not permanent. Not the same as seven." or something to that extent. I really got the feeling that Cavil destroyed the seventh permanently. And that is probably when he killed the five and resurrected them on Earth. And when he reprogrammed the other six to forget the five. Remember, he was the first, and he helped create the others. I'm sure it would be relatively easy. Then again, that isn't to say that maybe Ellen anticipated this and hid a Daniel model away. I still think that Greystone is the best candidate though. The double Oedipus complex is a little creepy though. Ellen is Cavil's "mother"/creator. But Cavil is created in the image of her father. Wow.

    Random nitpick. When Cavil says "The one who calls herself D'Anna" when referring to the one who went down to the temple of five, but the thing is, that if you trace the threes, the one who sees the final five is the one from "Downloaded". Not the reporter on Galactica. So if they aren't all referred to as D'Anna like Cavil suggested, then why does he talk about the three as D'Anna. And on the other side of that, Boomer refers to the fours as "The Simons". But then he referred to Boomer as "The one you called Sharon Valerii"...
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  • Avatar of lunachan01

    lunachan01

    [44]Feb 14, 2009
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    Maybe Ellen saved one copy of the Daniel or saved the original one from Cavil by changing Daniel sex and making it a Kara Thrace. I need more answers I can not wait fro next week!!!!
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  • Avatar of hazelnut144

    hazelnut144

    [45]Feb 14, 2009
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    I was just rewatching chunks of the episode, and I figured out the hybrid line. The centurions were already trying to make skinjobs, but they weren't succeeding. They were an evolutionary dead end as Athena said. Then the final five showed up and were like "You're going about this all wrong", and showed them how to make the real skinjobs.
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  • Avatar of Maxilicious

    Maxilicious

    [46]Feb 14, 2009
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    Okay, guys. After watching this episode, I remembered a picture that had been in the line of hints leading up to the January 16th episode. This image is on the following page: http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/index.php?pageid=280

    Perhaps the man next to Starbuck is Daniel?

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  • Avatar of mialza

    mialza

    [47]Feb 14, 2009
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    roger767 wrote:
    Can somebody explain the events of razor and the hybrids and why were there old centurian models there?? I forgot what happened, and how it relates with what we know now.

    The hybrid in Razor was the attempt of the Colonial made Centurions to evolve, and happened during the war and before the Final (technically first) Five showed up. When they did finally show up, they discovered that the Colonial Cylons believed in god and were trying to evolve. With this in mind they convinced them to end the Cylon war in exchange for the creation of humanoid Cylons. They made these as tools to bridge the rift between humans and Cylons, with John being the first. John's jealousy and close-mindedness caused him to revolt against his creators, much like the Centurions did against the Colonials. He had them killed, resurrected and placed into society without their memories in order for them to learn about the wickedness of humanity and join him in destroying it. In the end it seems the entire destruction of the colonies was the vendetta of the Ones who believed in mechanical superiority. As the first created he helped the five build the other seven, and with that knowledge was able to destroy the sevens out of spite, and was able to reprogram the others to forget the Final Five and desire a renewed war with the humans. Had John not turned against his makers the skinjobs would have been agents of peace and none of this would have happened.

    As for the episode it was another great one. I'm a long standing Ellen hater, but she won me over in this one. I complained that she just wasn't interesting enough to be the final Cylon, but I was wrong. And to top it off there's a 13th model which explains the number gap between the Sixes and Eights that has bugged me for a long time.

    I agree with all the others who posted about the symbolism of Galactica falling apart as the fleet was falling apart, only to be saved by integrating with the Cylons. Galactica the ship and the Fleet as a unit can only survive by allowing the Cylons in. The same thing was said by Lee when said the Colonies were gone and the Fleet needed a new outlook to function properly. Plus it's good the have the Chief back where he belongs.

    As for Danial, I think he's dead and he will not come back, be reincarnated or in any other way of show up in anything other then a flashback. That's not to say his presence is not still there. I think that before John revolted the Cylons were trying to integrate into human society secretly and peacefully, and one of the Danial models fathered Starbuck. She is a Cylon/human hybrid, and she received several of his attributes like being an artist and potentially resurrection. This would explain almost everything. In flashbacks they didn't really talk about her father much but he didn't seem to be around. My guess is that not long after she was conceived the Sevens were destroyed, and Starbuck is now the only living link to their existence. The only thing I have no idea about and don't want to hypothesise about is how the hell Starbuck died at some random planet, her body landed on Earth, then she shows up somewhere in the middle. It probably has something to do with Ellen but I'm leaving that one alone.

    Edited on 02/14/2009 9:20am
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  • Avatar of Daxx00004

    Daxx00004

    [48]Feb 14, 2009
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    gibbin1 wrote:

    lunachan01 wrote:
    What about Kara? After watching the episode I Think I heard Anders said that they make 8 models. So with the original five and the 8 created we have 13 models. I think Kara is the daniel model. Ellen said that Cavil aka John mess with the tank that contanied the Daniel model, maybe Cavil turned the model into the female model and we get Kara. Daniel was artist and Kara is one too (The Demitrius paintings she made) so that makes me think she is the Daniel model. Also I think the new Kara was made in Ellens lab that Cavil mentioned that still exist and was the place all the colonies models were made. We have not seen the Daniel model so maybe Kara is the Daniel model.

    BINGO!!! i so reckon that too. Thats why she painted the temple circle while on Caprica and all the paintings on the Demetrius, and why she acts more like a guy than a girl.



    I don't think so. I can see her being a child of Daniel. Maybe Daniel could pro-create with humans just like the 8's can.
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  • Avatar of Invader_of_53

    Invader_of_53

    [49]Feb 14, 2009
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    roger767 wrote:
    Can somebody explain the events of razor and the hybrids and why were there old centurian models there?? I forgot what happened, and how it relates with what we know now.


    I'm glad "Razor" was brought up because some of these links are being tied together in retrospect. Apparently, these Centurians were "guardians" who managed to skirt being scraped. Their basestar was the one that left the ice planet just as the end of the Cylon War was announced. A young Adama crashed there and found the Cylon experimenting on humans. Things looked to cave in when he made it topside just in time to see a new baseship take off and, to his shock, hear that the Cylons declared an armistice. The Hybrid they were protecting was part of their own experiment to make Cylons flesh before the Final Five came and showed them the correct way to make a skinjob. Remember, Anders said they had only really created the Hybrids, but nothing that lived on its own. Evidently, one did make it and a fraction of the toasters decided to stay shiny and protect it, managing to go undetected until about the time of the Season 2's climax. Therefore, I don't think Daniel is the Hybrid. Furthermore, I think the parallel is the Cylon cycle: Centurians split between those who get upgraded and those who don't; more than 40 years later, the humanoid Cylon split between those who wish to seek out the Final Five and those wish to keep it mum (seems partially moot, when we see that Cavil knew the whole time). And it's even kind of making a complete circle.

    Speaking of parallels, quite a bit of you are humming the tune of Lucifer with Cavil (while I certainly love it, I'm a bit exhausted by the fact that I can't trust Biblical canon), recall that in the original series John was the name of one of the Beings of Light. Another one of their kind turned to the darkside in a similar portrayal of the Morning Star. And wrapping it up, anyone get the (kind of ironic) allusion of Ellen offering Boomer an apple. And right after Cavil urges Boomer to know a little bit about her creator's motives. If only Boomer was projecting herself nude in the middle of a garden landscape. Hell, frak the allusion, I just want to see that in general.

    And I know it's been noted to bloody death but I can't help but to reiterate: Ellen is essentionally Number One's mother. Ew. And she made him in the image of her father. Wait, does that negate the seeming incest? Not really. Double ew!

    Now that that's all to the side, I found this episode both enjoyable and kind of frustrating. While I did like that we got answers, it was largely expositional without much in the way of progress of the story. It's almost like finding an encrypted line in only a single page. That said, it did explain a lot things without making it seem far-fetched. It was as satisfying as an explanation we can get without giving away the final details. But I have one question: did Cavil do anything to Tory? Seems like she wasn't really on the receiving end of any of Cavi's sadism. I don't recall Ellen mentioning her in reciting his lines of crimes. I also think I'm going to really like Ellen as the last Cylon more than I thought I was. I'm really liking the way the show is heading into its end. And damn, only five episode left. But I think these details are going to give a fresh face to the events of "The Plan" know what we know who knows what about what they know.
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  • Avatar of Eric10301

    Eric10301

    [50]Feb 14, 2009
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    hazelnut144 wrote:
    I really got the feeling that Cavil destroyed the seventh permanently. And that is probably when he killed the five and resurrected them on Earth. And when he reprogrammed the other six to forget the five.


    I think you have he 12 colonies and Earth mixed up. The Final 5 were sent to the various colonies to live with the Humans, not Earth.
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  • Avatar of seantuck

    seantuck

    [52]Feb 14, 2009
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    Maxilicious wrote:

    Okay, guys. After watching this episode, I remembered a picture that had been in the line of hints leading up to the January 16th episode. This image is on the following page: http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/index.php?pageid=280

    Perhaps the man next to Starbuck is Daniel?


    ooooooooo, i like that theory!!! also the one where someone said that Daniel is her father!

    great episode! so much information was given that my brain hurts!!! in a good way though! after this episode i really like Ellen's character.
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  • Avatar of jmac4ever

    jmac4ever

    [53]Feb 14, 2009
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    Has anyone yet been able to come up with an explanation for the whole "aging" part of this whole thing? I mean, it doesn't really apply to Galen, Tory, and Sam, but clearly Saul and Ellen had to have aged. How did that happen?
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  • Avatar of ummhaniyyah

    ummhaniyyah

    [54]Feb 14, 2009
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    What I got from this episode - please clarifications and corrections. I'm trying to piece things together:

    Hybrids - Anders said that the Cylons (Centaurians) had already got as far with creating humanoids as creating the hybrids when the Final Five came along.

    Daniel - He died. His fetus' amniotic fluid was poisoned and his DNA corrupted - so his fate would have been more final than boxing.

    13th Tribe - They were all humanoid Cylons who had learned how to reproduce? Why did they kill one another? How did the nuclear Holocaust on earth happen?

    Cavil - He's been aware of the Cylons' origins all along but kept it hidden from the other humanoid Cylons and wiped the memories of the Final Five before boxing and then regenerating them on Earth.

    Yes, there is some creepy Oedipal stuff going on with him and Ellen. We know it is the same Cavil who slept with her on New Caprica because when she is naked and asks for clothes he tells her that "I've seen it all already anyway." He must have enjoyed degrading her - making her beg and offer sex for Tigh's life and in fact it must have been him who created the regenerated Ellen as a promiscuous lush - when we see the 'real' Ellen is a much more formidable person.

    Reproduction - Does anyone think that the models the Final Five created may have been made to only be able to reproduce with humans or with the Final Five so that they would be more likely to integrate?

    It was so sad to have Sam die.
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  • Avatar of mialza

    mialza

    [55]Feb 14, 2009
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    jmac4ever wrote:
    Has anyone yet been able to come up with an explanation for the whole "aging" part of this whole thing? I mean, it doesn't really apply to Galen, Tory, and Sam, but clearly Saul and Ellen had to have aged. How did that happen?

    I think they all age, but were put into society at different times. Tigh first then Ellen. Later the Ones put the other three in. They were all boxed and reactivated at different times.

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  • Avatar of seantuck

    seantuck

    [56]Feb 14, 2009
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    ummhaniyyah wrote:

    It was so sad to have Sam die.

    I dont think Sam is dead...........it seems that at the moment he is in a very vegitative state, whether this is forever or for just the time being seeing as he just got done with a major surgery, I don't know.

    I hope not for long!
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  • Avatar of ribex

    ribex

    [57]Feb 14, 2009
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    Isn't anyone else bothered that John Hodgman was in this epidsode? It was just wrong, wrong, wrong to cast him. Yes, I think he's funny on The Daily Show, etc., but this is like taking a chocolate fudge milkshake and pouring mustard into it. Seriously, seeing him on screen totally broke the illusion for me and really ruined the rest of the episode, and my usual post-watching pondering. ARGH.
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  • Avatar of eurokomitet

    eurokomitet

    [58]Feb 14, 2009
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    ummhaniyyah wrote:


    Daniel - He died. His fetus' amniotic fluid was poisoned and his DNA corrupted - so his fate would have been more final than boxing.



    I think Ellen only said that the copies' amniotic fluid was poisoned. The original Daniel model might still be alive, or at least have survived and escaped. Ellen said that he was a sensitive artist type, and I'm presuming that meant she had actually met him (not just designed him and then saw the product destroyed). So I think one (the original) would have survived at least the fetal poisoning.
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  • Avatar of MrBovineOrdure

    MrBovineOrdure

    [59]Feb 14, 2009
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    That post of the URL; http://www.scifi.com/battlestar/youwillknowthetruth/index.php?pageid=280 showing Kara Playing piano with someone we've not met yet.

    I think your right that that's probably Daniel. It would explain one thing hanging. Kara's resurrection.

    From the point where Ellen woke up to the point she escaped, there was no mention of resurecting Kara. Kavil did however mention a base where there's still resurrection technology. My guess is that's where Daniel is, he's the one who resurrected Kara and may be orchestrating things...

    Mr BO

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  • Avatar of ummhaniyyah

    ummhaniyyah

    [60]Feb 14, 2009
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    Yes, the aging thing is strange. Ellen and Tigh look pretty much now as they looked on Earth - but Adama has experienced Tigh as aging with him - so that's a script oversight.

    Cavil was apparently created an old man, in the image of Ellen's father.
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