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Discussion - "Sometimes a Great Notion" (1/16/09)(Spoilers)

How would you rate this episode?

  • Avatar of Raven-22

    Raven-22

    [61]Jan 17, 2009
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    Maybe this is where the ship of lights come into the plot. The ship of lights is the only thing left from the original battlestar galactica show that has not been explained yet. This would explain how the Clyons where reborn and ended up on Caprica. It would also explain how Starbuck came back in a new white viper.
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    PunkNerd5

    [62]Jan 17, 2009
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    ICE0ne wrote:
    during tyrol's flashback they hid all the faces except one blond woman. i didn't get a good enough look to recognize her, did anyone?

    As soon as I saw her I thought to myself "Wow... She looks like Starbuck!". I had another look, over and over again, and while she looks like Starbuck, I don't think she is. Could it be possible they added her in to tease us?

    Overall great episode. I'm glad Ellen turned out to be the 5th and not Dee.

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  • Avatar of Fjaman

    Fjaman

    [63]Jan 17, 2009
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    what about the small metal pieces duala picked up, was it something that caused her to blow her brains out or did it just symbolize that there´s nothing left on earth...

    She seemed happy up to the point she killed herself, and lee finding those pieces in the end, it cant just be coincidence!

    everyone on earth cylon ??? wtf was that? they cant go in the direction that all the humans are descendants of cylons, that would just be weird

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  • Avatar of Drewligarchy

    Drewligarchy

    [64]Jan 17, 2009
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    BHSWorkstation wrote:

    ONE MORE GOOD TWIST:

    remember that during the discussions of the tests on the bodies, Baltar stated, "The results are inconclusive."



    What Baltar actually said is "The results are conclusive"; you may have missed this because of the accent.

    I think we need to take things at face value and not assume that every single thing said and every revelation is an out and out lie.
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  • Avatar of Drewligarchy

    Drewligarchy

    [65]Jan 17, 2009
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    Andrew-SG wrote:
    Dee is a final (5) Cylon
    Remeber when she pick up the clock and some 12 small metal thing's .. I think she has the same flash back's like other original Cylons ... and I think the resurection hub is still working on the Earth


    No she isn't. It's over. Tyrol, Anders, Tori and the two Tigh's are the final five. Stop assuming every single thing in the series is a red herring. There is only half a season left - Moore has laid the groundwork for the rest of the series. There is a lot of stuff to still go through, and not only do they not have time to junk everything they've just established - but it would really hurt the credibility of the series at this point.

    Remember, BSG is not Heroes ...
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  • Avatar of youzernaym

    youzernaym

    [66]Jan 17, 2009
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    Drewligarchy wrote:
    Andrew-SG wrote:
    Dee is a final (5) Cylon Remeber when she pick up the clock and some 12 small metal thing's .. I think she has the same flash back's like other original Cylons ... and I think the resurection hub is still working on the Earth
    No she isn't. It's over. Tyrol, Anders, Tori and the two Tigh's are the final five. Stop assuming every single thing in the series is a red herring. There is only half a season left - Moore has laid the groundwork for the rest of the series. There is a lot of stuff to still go through, and not only do they not have time to junk everything they've just established - but it would really hurt the credibility of the series at this point. Remember, BSG is not Heroes ...

    Agreed, it's quite clear that the final five are now all revealed.

    Dee said she was feeling great, and she wanted to enjoy every last second of it... when the good feeling started to fade away, hopeless and helpless, she shot herself. Roslin doesn't want to live anymore, Adama wanted to die too. It makes sense after all they went through to land on a nuked earth.

    In regards with Starbuck, when on Demetrius, trying to find earth she told Anders that she's been feeling different, not human, like an "alien thing" she does not understand. She already kinda figured something's wrong with her and finding her dead body was the last peice of puzzle.

    Cloning facility on earth? still working? and cloned her? No way. Was her fighter "cloned" too then?! to every last detail? Though time travel doesn't explain much either.

    Last thing that has me really confused is how the hell do these people land exactly in the area where the final five previously lived ? I mean earth is a huge place, how would Tyrol accidentaly find the exact place he died 2000 years ago? or how would Anders all of a sudden find his musical instrument?!(or even a replica). Things just don't happen so randomly. Not a big plot-hole though.

    Hopefully next week we'll get the answers to some questions, and hopefully we'll see less tears and cries!

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  • Avatar of martymcflyjb

    martymcflyjb

    [67]Jan 17, 2009
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    WOW

    Awesome episode. Dee's suicide completely shocked me. I definitely thought she was behaving strangely in the locker room, but I thought maybe she was going to be the Fifth. I think the fact that I missed the first five minutes (watched it later) also made me extra surprised. And just when I was getting very happy for her and Lee.

    The fact that the Thirteenth Tribe were Cylons was a great reveal, as was the whole Kara thing. Great scenes with her and Leoben.

    I was slightly disappointed with the identity of the Fifth, but NOT with the way it was revealed or the idea that Five of the Earth Cylons had some plan to be resurrected thousands of years later on Caprica.

    youzernaym wrote:
    I mean earth is a huge place, how would Tyrol accidentaly find the exact place he died 2000 years ago? or how would Anders all of a sudden find his musical instrument?!(or even a replica). Things just don't happen so randomly. Not a big plot-hole though.

    Yeah that's a bit contrived, but it's just TV. Minor quibble.

    hash1978 wrote:

    In the Ellen-in-the-rubble scene, she assures Tigh that 'everything is in place' (sorry if it's misquoted).

    It would seem that *she* is the one who organised the FF's apparent reincarnation, or more precisely -- and this is where the speculation begins -- Herself, plus a few others to surround herself with, carefully chosen:

    Not necessarily. There was clearly a plan, but all five of them may have planned it together.

    One thing that I never grasped about BSG, even before this episode, was the whole history involving Earth, Kobol, the 12 Tribes, and eventually the 12 Colonies. What is the chronology of that? That's being mentioned in this thread but people seem to be leaving out the Kobol element, so I'm still very confused.

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  • Avatar of tguedry82

    tguedry82

    [68]Jan 17, 2009
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    Fjaman wrote:

    what about the small metal pieces duala picked up, was it something that caused her to blow her brains out or did it just symbolize that there´s nothing left on earth...

    She seemed happy up to the point she killed herself, and lee finding those pieces in the end, it cant just be coincidence!

    everyone on earth cylon ??? wtf was that? they cant go in the direction that all the humans are descendants of cylons, that would just be weird

    The metal pieces were jacks. There was a ball too, but I think the rubber ball would have been obliterated by the nuke blast,lol although I think they had to leave it there so everyone would know what the metal things were. I think they were more significant because they probably belonged to a child, and it upset her to know that children died. Lee finding them later, I'm not sure if they were the ones she'd picked up on Earth or some she had as a child.
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  • Avatar of Daxx00004

    Daxx00004

    [69]Jan 17, 2009
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    tguedry82 wrote:
    Fjaman wrote:

    what about the small metal pieces duala picked up, was it something that caused her to blow her brains out or did it just symbolize that there´s nothing left on earth...

    She seemed happy up to the point she killed herself, and lee finding those pieces in the end, it cant just be coincidence!

    everyone on earth cylon ??? wtf was that? they cant go in the direction that all the humans are descendants of cylons, that would just be weird

    The metal pieces were jacks. There was a ball too, but I think the rubber ball would have been obliterated by the nuke blast,lol although I think they had to leave it there so everyone would know what the metal things were. I think they were more significant because they probably belonged to a child, and it upset her to know that children died. Lee finding them later, I'm not sure if they were the ones she'd picked up on Earth or some she had as a child.

    I agree, she was upset at the thought of the child that played with the jacks being killed in such a manner. Sort of like finding a teddy bear but a stuffed animal wouldn't have survived the nuke and time. So they had to think of a childs toy that would survive the elements.

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  • Avatar of Drewligarchy

    Drewligarchy

    [70]Jan 17, 2009
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    youzernaym wrote:

    Last thing that has me really confused is how the hell do these people land exactly in the area where the final five previously lived ? I mean earth is a huge place, how would Tyrol accidentaly find the exact place he died 2000 years ago? or how would Anders all of a sudden find his musical instrument?!(or even a replica). Things just don't happen so randomly. Not a big plot-hole though.

    This is a good point, However, I think the way they get around it is because Starbuck's crashed raptor led them there (or to the vicinity). Whomever or whatever led Starbuck to that area of earth originally, perhaps intended for the final cylons to rediscover elements of there past. Guess we'll have to watch more to see how they tackle this issue.

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  • Avatar of Drewligarchy

    Drewligarchy

    [71]Jan 17, 2009
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    tguedry82 wrote:
    Fjaman wrote:

    what about the small metal pieces duala picked up, was it something that caused her to blow her brains out or did it just symbolize that there´s nothing left on earth...

    She seemed happy up to the point she killed herself, and lee finding those pieces in the end, it cant just be coincidence!

    everyone on earth cylon ??? wtf was that? they cant go in the direction that all the humans are descendants of cylons, that would just be weird

    The metal pieces were jacks. There was a ball too, but I think the rubber ball would have been obliterated by the nuke blast,lol although I think they had to leave it there so everyone would know what the metal things were. I think they were more significant because they probably belonged to a child, and it upset her to know that children died. Lee finding them later, I'm not sure if they were the ones she'd picked up on Earth or some she had as a child.


    I agree with this line of thought. I basically think that these reminded Dee of her childhood - and was reinforced minutes before her suicide when she's discussing her childhood picture with Gaeta, and indicates that "This little girl had no idea what lies ahead" (or something along those lines).

    I believe the picture of Dee as a girl represented hope for her, and her reaction to the jacks in the sand, which belonged to a little girl killed in the nuclear holocaust, effectively killed that hope.
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  • Avatar of Lokutes

    Lokutes

    [72]Jan 17, 2009
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    Loved the episode, Loved the final Cylon being Ellin, Loved the drama!!

    I still dont think it was Earth though, cant remember who said it, but it was said in the Ep that the 13th tribe were all Cylons and Landed on the planet and "called" it Earth, didnt say it was Earth, so I think "our" Earth is still out there to be found.....

    I cant get out of my head that Adama and the fleet ARE the 13th tribe, found what they called Earth, the remains found were hybrid, got nuked by the rogue Cylons models and they are all stuck in a wierd time loop, reliving it all again and again.... thats what they keep saying all through the series, it happenning all over again..... this has probably been said billion of times in this forum..
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  • Avatar of Lokutes

    Lokutes

    [73]Jan 17, 2009
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    And I also think that something went wrong, the time loop was broken when Kara crashlanded on the planet, that is why she was sent back to reset the way it should happen but that didnt work either...
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  • Avatar of oldsage

    oldsage

    [74]Jan 18, 2009
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    The biggest question to be answered is what Kara is. Now, someone did mention earlier that she could indeed be a 13th cylon model (there were 13 tribes, so only 12 cylons doesn't seem to match), or she could be something entirely different and unique. I am so looking forward to the answers to this question in upcoming episodes.

    Although I understand everyone's need to create theories to justify their beliefs of who was the fifth unknown cylon, I think it's safe to say that the twelve are revealed (at least to Saul). However, explaining where the 13th tribe and Earth fit into all of this, I believe, cannot disregard the "history" of colonies, and the Prophecy of Pythia. Naturally, I will attempt my own speculative explanation...

    Thirteen tribes lived on Kobol. Nothing prior to this episode suggested that the 13th tribe was cylon at that point in time, if we consider that Kobol was the origin of humanity. Humans built the cylons. On the twelve colonies, the cylons rebelled and the first cylon war resulted in the "truce". Up to this point, if skin-jobs existed, no one on the twelve colonies knew of their existence. So the older model cylons (the centurions) arguably built the skin-jobs. That's at least what we were lead to believe up to this episode

    (The only fly in that ointment, however, is explaining how Anders, Saul, Ellin (Ellen?), Tori and the Chief got to the twelve colonies. Were their "ancestors" there from more than 2,000 years ago? Were they able to keep hidden so well over that period of time that no one noticed that the later models looked EXACTLY like their predecessors? But I digress...)

    But let's consider an alternative... perhaps the 13th colony was human after all, who went to earth, built cylons similar to their cousins in the twelve colonies, however, unlike the twelve colonies, they managed to avoid the first cylon war and co-existed for a time. The cylons on Earth, perhaps, rather than waging open war when they wanted to break the shackles of their human masters, decided to be more secretive. The skin-jobs were first developed on Earth (without the human population knowing) as a means of infiltrating the human population, eventually producing an entire population of hybrids, out-reproducing the original human colonists. It is possible that the toasters did not achieve "freedom" as they had anticipated and a cylon war broke out 2,000 years prior, and Earth got nuked.

    Similar to the twelve colonies, I would imagine that there were survivors from Earth, perhaps a fleet of skin-jobs, made contact with the cylons who existed near the twelve colonies. Likely this happened just after the first cylon war. The cylons from the 13th colony assumed dominance over the toasters. Since co-existence at that point was impossible due to the fact war had already been waged between the toasters and the humans, and in an attempt to create hybrids by force (as discovered by a young Bill Adama in Razor) the skin-jobs decided to wipe out most of the twelve colonies human population, keeping only enough to continue their attempt to "breed" viable hybrids.

    The "final five" may have disagreed with the plans of the seven and somehow erased records of their identities from cylon memory, and even wiped their own memories, attempting to integrate into the twelve colonies. However, their "programming" still ruled them, leading them to where they are now.

    I find it hard to believe that there weren't (and aren't) survivors on Earth. At some point in time the five had to get from Earth to the colonies. Something had to allow them to be "resurrected" upon dying in Earth's nuclear apocalypse. Something had to be responsible for rebuilding Kara's viper (and possible re-building Kara) and sending her back to the fleet.

    On a final note, I thought the fact that the Chief saw his burned-in shadow on the wall was chilling...

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  • Avatar of roger767

    roger767

    [75]Jan 18, 2009
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    Lokutes wrote:
    And I also think that something went wrong, the time loop was broken when Kara crashlanded on the planet, that is why she was sent back to reset the way it should happen but that didnt work either...


    Maybe the source of the explosion 2000 years ago on Earth was Starbuck entering the atmosphere (via timetravel, black hole or something)and creating a nuclear explosion.
    Still doesn't explain how kara is still alive. lets hope the remaining episodes are as good as this one.

    PS. has the earth in BSG have anything to do with our earth or is it just coincidence (drama factor) that it shares the same name?
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    oldsage

    [76]Jan 18, 2009
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    roger767 wrote:
    Lokutes wrote:
    And I also think that something went wrong, the time loop was broken when Kara crashlanded on the planet, that is why she was sent back to reset the way it should happen but that didnt work either...


    Maybe the source of the explosion 2000 years ago on Earth was Starbuck entering the atmosphere (via timetravel, black hole or something)and creating a nuclear explosion.
    Still doesn't explain how kara is still alive. lets hope the remaining episodes are as good as this one.

    PS. has the earth in BSG have anything to do with our earth or is it just coincidence (drama factor) that it shares the same name?


    Personally, I dismiss the whole time-travel premise, it's just far too contrived for a show like BSG.

    As for the relationship to "our" Earth, I would be interested to see whether that question will ever be answered. It could be millenia in our past (Chariot of the Gods - that was the premise of the first BSG series in the 70's) or in our future.
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    BaouShotaruga

    [77]Jan 18, 2009
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    I don't think they're on Earth.

    So far, everything that Pythia predicted has come to pass in the way she described it. She described Earth as a lush, living environment, not a nuclear wasteland.

    Starbuck was referred to by two separate hybrids as "the harbinger of death" and they both said that she'd lead Humanity to it's end. Well, she did lead the fleet to this planet. Kinda stands to reason ...

    Edited on 01/18/2009 3:30am
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    MichaudMR

    [78]Jan 18, 2009
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    Overall it was a great fiery re-entry into the world of BSG. But there are a few questions lurking about here. If they've discovered that all of the skeletal remains found were Cylon then there were (are) far, far more models of cylon than just 12. In all of the scenes where the Final Five were flashing back the other people were not all copies, so it doesn't quite add up just yet. Also, if the 13th Colony was Cylon then the it leads me to believe that the colonials did not originate at the place they've just found. All 13 colonies must have come from some other beginning point, otherwise everyone would pop positive on the cylon test.

    I was a bit concerned by the state of preservation of the ruins. 2000 years of degradation would normally leave far less evidence that what is depicted, but then again a nuclear winter would create a global ice box and greatly arrest the rate of decay. So in the end that one is a wash.

    I really like how the writers are handling the characters reaction the shock of finding a decimated Earth. Roslin has fulfilled her destiny and led her people to Earth, only to discover all she has believed in has been betrayed. Everything appears to have become an empty shell for her and she is awaiting a withering death. Dee gave herself one last moment of borrowed good feelings and then ended it quickly rather than allowing herself to linger on. The Adama's are pulling themselves together and finding a way to move on, and everyone else is somewhere in between.

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    roger767

    [79]Jan 18, 2009
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    MichaudMR wrote:

    Overall it was a great fiery re-entry into the world of BSG. But there are a few questions lurking about here. If they've discovered that all of the skeletal remains found were Cylon then there were (are) far, far more models of cylon than just 12. In all of the scenes where the Final Five were flashing back the other people were not all copies, so it doesn't quite add up just yet. Also, if the 13th Colony was Cylon then the it leads me to believe that the colonials did not originate at the place they've just found. All 13 colonies must have come from some other beginning point, otherwise everyone would pop positive on the cylon test.

    I was a bit concerned by the state of preservation of the ruins. 2000 years of degradation would normally leave far less evidence that what is depicted, but then again a nuclear winter would create a global ice box and greatly arrest the rate of decay. So in the end that one is a wash.

    I really like how the writers are handling the characters reaction the shock of finding a decimated Earth. Roslin has fulfilled her destiny and led her people to Earth, only to discover all she has believed in has been betrayed. Everything appears to have become an empty shell for her and she is awaiting a withering death. Dee gave herself one last moment of borrowed good feelings and then ended it quickly rather than allowing herself to linger on. The Adama's are pulling themselves together and finding a way to move on, and everyone else is somewhere in between.



    the galactica crew found Kobal during season 2. Which is the origin of all the peoples of the 12 colonies. I never understood the importance of earth. Besides the fact that the crew deluded themselves in thinking that if they found earth the cylons would stop hunting them down.
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    MrBovineOrdure

    [80]Jan 18, 2009
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    I really wonder if what they found *was* earth. We know that earth *does* exist. At the end of the 3rd season they did the galactic zoom-out, zoom-in to a very recognizable earth, yet all the scenes of the planet we see when the Colonials and Cylon ship jump in hides any useful references to the continents and land formations that we know. I think they have yet to find the planet we know as Earth. Yes, the star patterns match what they found in the tomb of Athena, but has anyone looked up (and I'm seeking help from any sharp astronomers here) the order and position of the stars presented to them in the "Lobby" of Athena's tomb to see if they actually match what we all see her on Earth?

    The original Cylons seem to have some pretty wicked technology. They must have known when and where Kara would doom her viper in that gas giant. Been there ready with some device to transport her viper to what they're calling earth. Then they had several months to rebuild a new viper and give her a new body, Then use whatever transportation devicxe they used to get her there to get her back into the fleet. Perhaps this device is a more advanced version of jump technology. I wonder if this device had anything to do with all the power in the fleet flicking off at the nebula?

    "There are 12 models". I'm beginning to think this is a bit misleading now. Perhaps "There are 12 models left" would be more accurate. 5 of them are the original ones who have found a different means of resurrecting than requiring a "hub" and blank bodies. Ellen said "Everything's in place, we'll be reborn" means there was something to prepare in advance to permit their version or resurrection. I'm thinking this device would allow them to transport any consciousness to any kind of body they want. Hence, Kara may not have been a Cylon in the past, but she is one now.

    This was a tremendous episode. I too thought they were paying much attention to Dualla, but only because they were going to reveal her as the final cylon. Had I paid more attention, her blowing her own brains out wouldn't have come as such as surprise.

    On Baltar conclusively identifying the remains as Cylon, remember that there are LOTS of other Cylons present now. Where he might have been guessing in the past and his procedures might not been conclusive, he now has their help to assist in his conclusions.

    All in all, I think we're going to see a lot of "What exactly is life?" issues coming up in future episodes.

    Mr BO

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