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Discussion - "Sometimes a Great Notion" (1/16/09)(Spoilers)

How would you rate this episode?

  • Avatar of hazelnut144

    hazelnut144

    [101]Jan 19, 2009
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    Orionova2 wrote:

    I'm just going to say it. Ellen CANNOT be the 5th. I refuse to believe it. Why would R. Moore bestow such a significant title to such an insignificant character (who isnt even a main cast member)?? The other four were ALL major characters (well, maybe except for Tori)

    Starbuck might be the fifth....maybe. She's a big enough character to be the fifth. But....for some reason...I also doubt this. The Final Cyclon has to be someone IMPORTANT (either Admiral Adama, the President, or Baltar). The entire series has been building up to the revelation of the fifth cyclon. I don't think Moore would waste it on being 'starbuck' or even 'apollo.'

    ...Or Moore might just do a complete mindfrack and have it so that it happens to be that EVERYONE's actually a cylon. But that's just a theory....

    It's not actually a bad choice. I didn't expect it to be one of the main cast anyways. Too many of them are already cylons. At least it was a major recurring character. And I think that to make any of the other main characters cylons would compromise their humanity.

    That has always been the thing about this show. The people are so completely flawed and human, that making them cylons would just almost give them a reason for being messed up. As in "they're messed up because they are cylons, not because they are human"

    I even thought that Tigh was a bit much as a cylon. Same with Kara as a "goddess" or whatever she really is. Those were the two most messed up characters on the show and it kind of excuses them for being screwed up almost.

    Of course, I know that they wanted a huge shock at the end of third season, and Tigh is someone that very few people suspected. And, the way they are going with cylons this season, being one of the final five might end up not compromising humanity at all.

    But it could not have been Adama or Roslin. They are the parents of humanity (coloniality? I'm starting to think that humanity can't really be used to describe the colonials any more. The cylons could easily be just as human.) It's kind of like how Baltar couldn't be a cylon. He is the father of the hybrid race, Caprica is the mother. One cylon, one colonial.

    Edited on 01/19/2009 7:52am
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  • Avatar of psychickiller

    psychickiller

    [102]Jan 19, 2009
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    I have to agree with something said earlier. This is NOT Lost. This isn't a series about twists whenever possible, and definitely unlike Lost, it actually makes sense.

    Ellen as the final Cylon was a pretty common theory, why? Because it makes sense. Because it does have influence on the story, and stirs enough emotions.
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  • Avatar of jpaul34

    jpaul34

    [103]Jan 19, 2009
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    If anyone's interested, I've been blogging the show for some time over at Premium Hollywood.

    Here's the start...

    To prepare for last night's premiere, I re-watched "The Hub" and "Revelations" just to get back in the "Battlestar Galactica" groove. When the fleet finally jumped to Earth, and started to celebrate, an old hip-hop song from the '80s — "Joy & Pain" by Rob Base and DJ EZ Rock — popped into my head. (By the way, I guarantee you that this is the only "BG" blog that is going to reference a Rob Base song.) I was sad for the fleet knowing what was in store for them on Earth. I still feel like the final trip to Earth was rushed, but the creators wanted to get that plot point in before the first half finale, and I don't blame them.

    So where do we go from here?

    First off, I was conflicted when I saw that Dualla played such a prominent role in the "previously on" scenes before the start of the premiere...

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  • Avatar of guyroy1971

    guyroy1971

    [104]Jan 19, 2009
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    I read the posts and wanted to put in my response to the theories out there. I do not believe Ellen is a younger version of a six. She is the fifth cylon. Even the teaser for next week stated something like knowing the fifth is just the start. It does make sense as they seem to be magically reborn and they show up wherever humans are. If you remember, Ellen just turned up and everyone thought she may be a cylon, as it seemed improbable she could have survived the attack and been one of the survivors. (50,000 out of 12 billion were long odds). This seems to be the motis operandi of the final five, they do die, but will turn up again after some time goes by. I think they will find her again on one of the other ships blending in to the crew or something like that now that Tigh knows, he will be looking for her.

    I also think Starbuck may be one of them now (now they are the final six) Her resurrection sure seems similar to Ellens before. She died and some time went by, and now she is back. The final cylons (if that is what they really are) seem to just materialize out of nothing over and over again and only remember their previous lives if something turns on that switch (like the flashback with Tigh and Ellen, my thoughts were he did not know what he was until Ellen told him they would be reborn, then he remembered)

    I think the explanation will either be supernatural (they are angels or gods or something like that) or that the cylons eons ago perfected the downloading proceedure so well they did not need bodies to download to, but instead they can literally make themselves new bodies out of particles in the universe. (its deep but thats my thoughts).

    I also do not believe they can save humanity or the cylons from destroying themselves. They are just immortal and do not keep their knowledge of past events unless something reminds them of it. They are like bystanders to history. I would be surprised if they made the other seven (I still think the mechanical cylons did that) Judging by the flashbacks, they do not seem to get involved but merely seek to fit in. This ties into the cylical nature of the story they seem to be telling. Man always create cyclons in this universe then the cylons create human cylons, then they destroy each other. It seems like it has been happening for thousands of years in this universe.
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  • Avatar of MichaelDracon

    MichaelDracon

    [105]Jan 19, 2009
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    I just finished reading this: http://featuresblogs.chicagotribune.com/entertainment_tv/2009/01/final-fifth-cylon-ellen-tigh-battlestar-galactica-dualla-dee-.html ...and it looks like there is no disputing it. Ellen is indeed the final Cylon. So that shoots the Ellen = Six thing out of the sky.



    But the rest of my theory still stands. Ellen knew about being reborn, so she is involved in the original cloning program on Earth.

    I'm also still convinced that the cloning facility is still intact on Earth, and that it recreated Kara. Only now it's probably better to view her as a new 12th model rather than the 13th.

    I do believe we'll get quite a few more flashbacks, as it is implicated that Ellen's character will be seen again.
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  • Avatar of lunachan01

    lunachan01

    [106]Jan 19, 2009
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    Dracon I agree with your teory. I also think the cloning or resurrection ship is still intact and is hidden somewhere in the galaxy.
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  • Avatar of MetaLuna

    MetaLuna

    [107]Jan 19, 2009
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    I'm not so sure about the cloning ship idea. They've gone to great lengths to discuss the differences between the Cylon and the human religions - monotheism vs polytheism, and God's plan, and so on. I wonder if the "Final Five" have just found a way to be, literally, reborn. (Wouldn't explain all the Cylon skeletons buried on Earth, though.)
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  • Avatar of Raven-22

    Raven-22

    [108]Jan 19, 2009
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    lunachan01 wrote:

    The final five are clones thats why they were alive on the colonies. The new Kara is also a clone. It is still a mystery of how she came back which will be resolved on the next episodes.

    I think it happen just like in the orginal BSG. Remember when Apollo was killed on the Red Planet. While Starbuck was returning to ship with Apollo's body they were enveloped by the Ship of lights. The life form on the ship not only bought Apollo back to life they gave them the way to earth. They both end up back on the BSG with no memories of how they got there.

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [109]Jan 19, 2009
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    Interesting theories going on here. I'd just like to point out one item related to the image of Earth we saw at the end of Season 3. That shot included outlines of the continents, including the analog of North America. However, Mark Verheiden, one of the producers, said that final shot was a portrayal of the ideal of Earth that the Colonial fleet was chasing, not necessarily an actual image of what Earth looks like in the universe of Battlestar Galactica.

    Maybe that Season 3 shot represented Earth's past or the idealized version of the past.

    Now that they seem to be leaving Earth, this changes Adama's central mission from the Miniseries and Season 1. The episode intro still focuses on the 5th Cylon. But there has to be more to the discovery of Earth than what we saw in this episode. Kara's mysterious Viper crash signals that there has to be something going on that we haven't seen. Even if this is the "real" Earth, there is still the mystical presence of Kara, whatever she may be.

    I've long since given up trying to figure out what was going to happen in advance. I'm enjoying the journey toward the end. I just hope that ending is fulfilling from a dramatic viewpoint, although I suspect that it's going to be rather depressing.
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  • Avatar of MrBovineOrdure

    MrBovineOrdure

    [110]Jan 19, 2009
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    How about this;

    The final five reproduced and propogated their conciousness through the centuries by a yet unspoken, unknown means but they understand the process. Like Frankenstein, they don't know exactly how to reproduce their own methods of stringing their lives across the centuries, but they understand the process enough to do it in the analog of a ressurection device with blank bodies.

    They developed the initial 7 as a means to emulate what comes naturally to them. I bet they also denied the ability to reproduce amongst the 7 in order to control their numbers. Where the 5 only have one copy of themselves that can continue existence forever, the 7 must have a controlled number of bodies limited to the number they could manufacture. These 7 can even reproduce the memories as we've seen one of the 8s in her admission.

    Mr BO

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [111]Jan 19, 2009
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    I don't remember exactly what the producers said about the last Supper picture. Did they say that the final Cylon was actually in that picture? If so, then they played a bit of a game there by not including Ellen.
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  • Avatar of mfirefly10

    mfirefly10

    [112]Jan 19, 2009
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    This episode was not at all what I expected...and yet...I loved it anyway. It was hands down the darkest episode of the series, and with BSG, that's saying something.

    In all the discussion of Dee's suicide, I think we've overlooked D'anna's fate. Like Dee, D'anna chose to give up and although her eventual suicide will be less-dramatic, it's just as powerful. I don't think either woman's actions were out of character because they've both been driven by faith: faith in something more, something better at the end of the journey. When that faith was broken, so were they. I'm sad to see both characters go but Dee's loss hit me harder because I don't think her character was ever fully-realized and I was really looking forward to seeing that. Still, both Kandyse and Lucy gave brilliant final performances.

    The little moment with Helo/Hera/Athena was one of my favs but it un-nerved me more than everything else in the show because it seemed to be put there as a before-moment. As in, things are going to get really, really bad for my favorite family so this nice, happy moment will be in contrast with what's to come.

    It's really hard to judge Ellen-as-the-5th at this point. Once we see how the entire storyline plays out, I'm sure everything will fall into place.

    Kara...I'm still not sure what's up with her but Katee and CKR will brilliant in those scenes. Watching Leoben's freak-out was fantastic and Katee did an amazing job in the scene where Kara burned her own body.


    At this point, I have no idea where this show is going...and I don't care. I'm just happy to be along for the ride.

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [113]Jan 19, 2009
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    The Chicago Tribune article/interview is interesting. The producers and writers point out that at the time this episode was filmed, the writers' strike was just beginning. No one knew how long the strike would last but they understood that if it were a lengthy strike, then this would probably be the final episode of Battlestar Galactica. Some of the despair and sadness on the faces of the actors could be based on the real sense of loss over the possible close of the series. They had good reason to think that this might have been the last BSG episode ever.
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  • Avatar of Daxx00004

    Daxx00004

    [114]Jan 19, 2009
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    123home123 wrote:
    I don't remember exactly what the producers said about the last Supper picture. Did they say that the final Cylon was actually in that picture? If so, then they played a bit of a game there by not including Ellen.

    They did include a place for her though. Right next to Tigh.
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  • Avatar of hazelnut144

    hazelnut144

    [115]Jan 19, 2009
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    I seem to remember RDM saying that the final cylon was NOT in the final supper picture. I seem to remember being happy that Adama, Roslin, Lee, Kara and Baltar were all ruled out.

    I am agreeing with 123Home123 here. I am looking forward to wherever this show takes us. I have faith that it will live up to our expectations. It actually sounds like it might have at least a hopeful ending. "Daybreak" sounds like there is hope. I can just see whichever of the main characters are still alive at the end, watching the sun rise on a new planet. Knowing this show, there probably won't be many of them.
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  • Avatar of KazzGirl

    KazzGirl

    [116]Jan 19, 2009
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    Yep! I got The Planet of the Apes allusion straight away. I am so glad you mentioned it because in my family when I see things like that I am thought of as mad, or that I watch way too much telly. I just remember things - thats all. And you know when they pulled the Centurion head from the sand, I also got flashes of Planet of the Apes then. You know when they sifted through the sand on the beach and finally realised where the Apes came from. Ah that chimp all those years ago. I thought maybe they were saying that Humans may have come from Cylons, or at least get some of us asking the God and Creator Questions.

    123home123 wrote:
    I'm kind of glad they didn't drag on the "what happened to Earth?" question and the identity of the 13th Tribe, and just took care of it all in one episode. And now the Fleet is moving on. But as you said, there are still so many questions, about Kara, about Ellen, how the Final Five were reborn. And we still have yet to see Cavil in Season 4.5. He's out there with his base ships. By the way, did anyone catch the reference to The Planet of the Apes? Here's the allusion I just added to the guide: Kara asks why Leoben is suddenly afraid of the truth. Leoben says to Kara, "I've got a feeling. You might not like what you find." In the famous sci-fi movie The Planet of the Apes, the orangutan scientist Dr. Zaius issues a similar warning to George Taylor (played by Charlton Heston) about searching for the truth. "Don't look for it, Taylor. You may not like what you find."

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [117]Jan 20, 2009
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    I sort of cheated on the Planet of the Apes allusion. The movie has been airing on the Encore movie channels so I just saw that scene about a week ago. I don't know if I would have spotted it otherwise. Maybe.
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  • Avatar of slowblink

    slowblink

    [118]Jan 20, 2009
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    Well, if BSG 2003 is playing out as a history-of-the-future scenario, then the allusion to Planet of the Apes is probably significant.
    Humans must have preceded the final 5, so (following on from PotApes) it is possible that the final 5 are what humans evolve into. Live forever by moving your consciouness from body to body.

    So now earth is gone, I think the focus of the series will become avoiding the whole "this has happened before, this will happen again"

    Who knows, but with such a measured buildup, I hope the ending isn't all "hollywood"
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  • Avatar of AndreasOS

    AndreasOS

    [119]Jan 20, 2009
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    mfirefly10 wrote:

    At this point, I have no idea where this show is going...and I don't care. I'm just happy to be along for the ride.

    Right there with you. This episode raised some intriguing questions without really answering anything conclusively.

    The Theories about the Final Five becoming the colonials gods, or creating the colonial cylons are all a little flawed, I think. The timeline has to be remembered.

    Pythia was circa 3,600 years previously.

    The Nuking of Earth was circa 2,000 years ago.

    The various possibilities are messing with my head...

    Could it be that the Final Five were created by the First Hybrids experiments, as some sort of glitch? Could Ellen have been the basis for the development of the Sixes? Is it possible that Caprica Six is the Ellen the Saul loved on Earth? [Who's to say that they looked the same in their previous lives. Ok, it's highly unlikely, but I like to speculate]
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  • Avatar of psychickiller

    psychickiller

    [120]Jan 20, 2009
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    Getting rid of the final Cylon is only a good thing... The series can move on without worrying all the time about "Who is that guy?". Now it just has the feeling of letting the series play out, and not worry about when or what will we discover.

    The connection between Earth, Kobol, and the 12 colonies is quite intriguing. 2000 years ago Earth was devastated by a nuclear holocaust. 2000 years ago the Twelve Tribes left Kobol, led by the 12 gods. Earth Centurions have high resemblance to 12 colonies Centurions, which shows the creating of the '12C centurions' originated from Earth.

    Now, it was said that all the skeletons on Earth are Cylons... Which means the 13th Tribe was a Cylon. The big question is, what IS a Cylon?
    At first it refered to those big cans of metal, which supposedly evolved into organic-like toasters. However, Earth Cylones are waaaaay older... Thus the human models aren't really Cylons, but something else... At least the Final Five, that's certain.

    To continue with the roll of 'It happened before, and it will happen again': The 13th Tribe built Centurions, they rebeled and nuked Earth; Twelve (Or five?) survivors return to the homeworld Kobol, causing the exile of the Twelve Tribes; The Twelve tribes built Centurions, they rebeled and (eventually) nuked the colonies.

    Plenty of holes in there, but I think it's the 'skeleton' theory of what the frak happened.
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