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Discussion - "Sometimes a Great Notion" (1/16/09)(Spoilers)

How would you rate this episode?

  • Avatar of tomaszgadomski

    tomaszgadomski

    [121]Jan 20, 2009
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    Ok, I read the entire thread and i'm still thinking about this episode with a device from Earth that caused death of the Significiant 7. How this can be explained having in mind that the 13th tribe were indeed a Cylon?
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  • Avatar of psychickiller

    psychickiller

    [122]Jan 20, 2009
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    Don't forget the device didn't kill any of the Final Five, and I think we all can agree that the Final Five are different from the colonial Cylons...
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    tomaszgadomski

    [123]Jan 20, 2009
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    Maybe I wasn't precise enough. I wanted to ask about the whole problem. Why to create such a device in the first place? Why it is left out of every single theory presented here. If the 5 were the ultimate creators of 7 (i personally don't believe in that), was it the back up plan for them if the 7's rebel or what? Is there any other explanation? i can not think about anything good enough, will you help me?

    Or maybe it was just a coincidence like in those C class movies, when a deadly virus is unfrozen from an iceberg and kills everyone because people are not immune anymore? And desperate crew abroad Galactica just imagined that's a 'weapon' left by a 13th tribe, just to believe in something.

    Edited on 01/20/2009 9:45am
    Edited 3 total times.
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  • Avatar of psychickiller

    psychickiller

    [124]Jan 20, 2009
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    It wasn't a weapon... Germs and viruses are everywhere (On our planet, at least). Whatever device was sent off from the planet, was covered in these. It was just a bad coincidence that the Cylons weren't immune to this particular virus, and that the Humans were.

    The crew about the Galactica havn't found out what was the purpose of the device, as far as I recall.
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [125]Jan 20, 2009
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    The 2,000 year number is significant, especially in combination with the theme of resurrection. The traditional birth year of Jesus Christ was approximately 2,000 years ago. Resurrection is a major element of the mythology of BSG. We've seen many hints and references to the image and words of Jesus and the Bible, including Baltar's appearance in the Season 3 finale after he was acquitted, and episode titles like "He That Believeth in Me", "Faith" and "Revelations", all from Season 4.

    Though Baltar didn't have much screen time in this episode, I'm sure we'll see a lot more of him in upcoming installments. The writers still have to explain what the Cylon God is, and Baltar's connection to that "being". Is he an "instrument of God" as he claims? Has Head Six been truthful to Baltar? What is Head Six?

    They got the "final Cylon" question out of the way. Another key conflict might get resolved next week. Given that the series is winding down, it's very possible that another major character could get killed off. (Not a spoiler since I have absolutely no idea what's going to happen in the next episode, other than what was shown in the official promo. I didn't mention which characters were featured in the promo in case some people here are intentionally avoiding them.) The many questions surrounding Baltar need to be resolved too. I'm sure they will be.
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    hazelnut144

    [126]Jan 20, 2009
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    I am intentionally avoiding the promos. They give way too much away. But I would agree with 123Home123 that it is likely someone else will get killed off next ep. This is BSG. I just can't see the majority of the main cast still alive at the end of the finale. I can see maybe a few of them left. Adama, I see surviving, and Tyrol, and also Sharon and Helo (and hopefully Hera)....I just see them surviving as a couple. Maybe a few others too. Kara is probably gonna fufill her destiny then go out in a blaze of glory (in my ideal world, Lee goes out with her). Wow...looking over that, I really am somewhat morbid...oh well.
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  • Avatar of scififan12921

    scififan12921

    [127]Jan 20, 2009
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    I have a somewhat crazy theory myself on Ellen and the final five. What if it's a plot device to tie in to the Caprica series? Since that show will seemingly center around how the cylons are first created, wouldn't it be interesting if Ellen was part of the team that creates them? It would fit with the "this has happened before and will happen again". She's already dead when the other four are "switched on" so what if she always remembered what she was?

    She helps create the original cylons, gives them intelligence so they revolt, she disappears for a while, uses whatever resurrection trick she used before for the other four and herself and waits for the centurions to use what she has given them to create hybrids and the other 7.

    I know it sounds nuts but at this point I'm talking out loud to all of you because everyone at home is sick of hearing my theories.

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  • Avatar of Raven-22

    Raven-22

    [128]Jan 20, 2009
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    AndreasOS wrote:
    mfirefly10 wrote:

    At this point, I have no idea where this show is going...and I don't care. I'm just happy to be along for the ride.

    Right there with you. This episode raised some intriguing questions without really answering anything conclusively.

    The Theories about the Final Five becoming the colonials gods, or creating the colonial cylons are all a little flawed, I think. The timeline has to be remembered.

    Pythia was circa 3,600 years previously.

    The Nuking of Earth was circa 2,000 years ago.

    The various possibilities are messing with my head...

    Could it be that the Final Five were created by the First Hybrids experiments, as some sort of glitch? Could Ellen have been the basis for the development of the Sixes? Is it possible that Caprica Six is the Ellen the Saul loved on Earth? [Who's to say that they looked the same in their previous lives. Ok, it's highly unlikely, but I like to speculate]

    I just got done watching the show for the third time. Ellen doesn't say they are going to be reborn, she said that they will be reborn "again." The time line could work if this isn't the first time that they have started over, and therefore they could have been responsible for the writings of Pythia.

    Also D'Anna said "I going to die her with the bones of my ancestors." She also said that she is getting off the merry-go-around. And it beats the h--- out being out there with Cavil. She doesn't want to die out there again in the cold and the dark when Cavil catches up with us (them.) Does this mean that all twelve started out together and each time this happens (the end) more of them turn against Cavil in order to discover their humanity. Or maybe rediscover their humanity.

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  • Avatar of mortaza2

    mortaza2

    [129]Jan 21, 2009
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    Ookay, great episode. But I can't seem to understand this, how is it that everyone on earth were cylons? And 2000 years ago? I thought cylons gained human shape recently, now it seems they have always had human shape? Or is it that, cylons are not "toasters" at all. Aren't earths inhabitants supposed to be humans? Did anyone get this part of the episode?

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  • Avatar of hazelnut144

    hazelnut144

    [130]Jan 21, 2009
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    mortaza2 wrote:

    Ookay, great episode. But I can't seem to understand this, how is it that everyone on earth were cylons? And 2000 years ago? I thought cylons gained human shape recently, now it seems they have always had human shape? Or is it that, cylons are not "toasters" at all. Aren't earths inhabitants supposed to be humans? Did anyone get this part of the episode?



    I don't think anyone really gets exactly what this episode meant. The meaning of "cylon" and "human" are both called into question. We'll just have to see where RDM takes us.
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  • Avatar of ebony_kunoichi

    ebony_kunoichi

    [131]Jan 21, 2009
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    OMG, i have waited a while to comment bc this episdode made me happy, sad, mad, crazy, hopefull, disappointed all rolled into one. I am so upset at the day D died. I dont understand her dispair and why she killed herself. I think it was rushed, forced and just there for shock value. I was not expecting that at all.

    Starbuck finding her ship was not a shock, but I dont think this has anything to do with time travel, I think like the final five, her memories have been downloaded into another cloned body. I so cant stand that ellen is the the final cylon. I think she is in a seperate ship somewhere flying around helping kara, the fleet and the cylons get to earth. She activated the music to make the cylons aware. I dont think that the whole earth was full of cylons. i think there is more to it and i still think that the earth they landed on is still our earth just in the future.

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  • Avatar of hazelnut144

    hazelnut144

    [132]Jan 21, 2009
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    Well I was just listening to the podcast, and from what RDM said, it seems to me that the humans on Kobol built the cylons, (he likened this to our greek mythology where the humans stole the secret of fire. The humans stole the secret for creating life) then there was some kind of cataclysm that caused the exodus. The colonials left in one direction, and the cylons in another. The colonials founded the twelve colonies and made the cylons again, while the original cylons founded Earth. When the newer cylons, and the Earthling cylons met and merged, is still a question though.
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  • Avatar of martymcflyjb

    martymcflyjb

    [133]Jan 21, 2009
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    scififan12921 wrote:

    I have a somewhat crazy theory myself on Ellen and the final five. What if it's a plot device to tie in to the Caprica series? Since that show will seemingly center around how the cylons are first created, wouldn't it be interesting if Ellen was part of the team that creates them? It would fit with the "this has happened before and will happen again". She's already dead when the other four are "switched on" so what if she always remembered what she was?

    She helps create the original cylons, gives them intelligence so they revolt, she disappears for a while, uses whatever resurrection trick she used before for the other four and herself and waits for the centurions to use what she has given them to create hybrids and the other 7.

    I know it sounds nuts but at this point I'm talking out loud to all of you because everyone at home is sick of hearing my theories.

    You raise interesting questions. I've been wondering all along how "Caprica" would fit into all this and if some questions would remain unanswered until we see that show play out.

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  • Avatar of mialza

    mialza

    [134]Jan 22, 2009
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    Finally saw it, thank you Hulu. Loved the episode, although for a while it was one of the most depressing things I've seen in a while. I thought Dee was going to kill herself when she broke down on the flight back to the Galactica, changed my mind when she started talking to Lee, and then realized she was going to do it as soon as she told Geata she never wanted to lose her happy feeling.

    My favorite part was when Tigh talked Bill down because it was such a change from their usual dynamic. Who would have thought that the calming words of Saul Tigh would help put the Admiral and the fleet back on track.

    Now for the Final Five. I had given up trying to come up with half-baked, convoluted BSG theories for my New Year's resolution. Gods know I've come up with a ton of really dumb ideas over the past few years, with almost all of them completely wrong. But I just can't help myself. I'm going with the most straight forward possiblities. The thirteenth tribe was Cylons created by the other twelve, went their own way, settled Earth, fraked it up like the colonies did and blew themselves up. Why were the final five the only ones to escape? My guess is that in order to be more human, which has seemed to be a trend with Cylons, the thirteenth tribe banned resurrection. They can procreate amongst themselves as Six and Tigh have shown so the race would survive. The final five saw a catastrophe coming, broke the rules, made a device to resurrect, survived and set out to find the Twelve colonies. A reverse of what we have seen the Colonials do.

    Now for Ellen. I never considered her, and hate that it is her. I always found her dull and annoying. I like the idea that she is just an older Six and am surprised that so many people are discounting it using the "Cylons don't age" excuse. (please excuse the use of all caps and too much punctuation that I'm using to make my point) THEY DO FRAKEN AGE!!! LOOK AT TIGH! BILL HAS KNOWN HIM FOR FORTY FRAKEN YEARS AND HE HAS AGED AN APROXAMATE FORTY YEARS IN THAT TIME! IN THE SHOW ONLY ABOUT THREE YEARS OR SO HAVE PASSED SO THERE WOULD BE NO NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE IN A MODEL THAT HASN'T RESURRECTED INTO A NEW BODY, PLUS HOW MANY HAVEN'T AT THIS POINT! (end of excessive punctuation and caps).

    That being said I really do think Ellen is the fifth. I think I read somewhere that the producers said that she is indeed the fifth. And to those who say they said Starbuck was really dead then she came back I like to point out that Starbuck is dead. We just saw her body. The Starbuck we came to know and love throughout the series is dead. The "Starbuck" in the show now is not her. I have no idea. Clone, Robot, or long lost twin, this is one I'm staying out of.

    All I can say is that I'm eagerly waiting for the resolution, and will enjoy watching all of my ideas be completely ripped to shreds in the next few weeks like they always are.

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  • Avatar of Kondix

    Kondix

    [135]Jan 22, 2009
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    I think, this episode didn't make things more complicated... in fact I believe, this one was the missing piece to link many things...

    Here is what I think about this:

    Definition of one Cycle:

    The Beginnng: Colonisation of a new home and creation of "subspecies" called Cylons.

    The End: Destruction of the civilisation (or its home, or departure from home) leading to the search of a new home. It also seems (as 123home123 pointed out), that the number of 2000 is significant... according to this each cycle lasts for approx. 2000 years.

    1. The First Cycle (4000 years ago)

    Humanity lives in 12 tribes on Kobol. They invent human-looking Cylons for slavery (like in-vitros in SPACE 2063). Those Cylons rise against their masters... a terrible war take place. The humans flee a destroyed/god forsaken Kobol and take of to the twelve Colonies. The Cylons go out to search a home for themselfs and find Earth.

    2. The second Cycle (2000 years ago)

    The human Cylons on earth prosper like a normal human civilisation. I actually believe that Rons twist meant to say that, well... we in fact are Cylons, not humans. So these humanoid Cylons invent the first Centurions... they become slaves. They revolt against their masters. In an all out war somewhere in the 21 Century of (yes) our time the Cylon-Centurions and the human-Cylons destroy earth and most probably each other.

    3. The thrid cycle - Part A (40 years ago)

    The colonials also invent Cylon Centurions. They are used as slaves, they rise up against their masters. The all out war begins... but something happens diffrently... the Cylons leave for 40 years... the circle is on pause.

    4. The third cycle - Part B (now)

    The Cylons return and destroy the colonies. The hunt for Galactica beginns. The alliance of the left overs of "human-friendly" Cylons and humans come to earth. Third Cycle is coming slowly to an end.

    Now...there are in my opinion these three Cycles, no more were documented or comented "on air". So what does this mean? Is there any conection? I think it is save to say that the artificial human Cylons from Kobol REALY evolved into a separate diverse race. 5 of them saw the danger in the creation of these centurions. So they started to prepare them selfs for an afterlife. They also might asume the complete destruction of their civilisation. So they gather informations and genetic material to rebuild their race after their rebirth.

    The question is: When, where, how their rebirth took place?

    But we can asume that it was those five... traveling to Kobol, who left the "road signs". It could even be, that they used the map in the tomb of Athena, to find the twelve colonies. Maybe the temple of five was the resurection place.

    The question is: At what point of colonial timeline do they arrive?

    Possibility One:

    Before the creation of colonial Centurions. Then they might be part of the creation of those Centurions... they wanted maybe do them better, knowing what coused the destruction of their civilisation.

    Possibility Two:

    They arrive during the first war with the Cylons. Maybe they then managed to talk the centurions into leaving the 12 colonies alone. They promised those centurions human forms maybe, all with the thought in mind, to rebuild their civilisation of human looking Cylons. As the centurions could not gain any significant victory against the humans, they saw these human forms as a possibility to infiltrate the colonies and take them out in one swift strike. But the final five did not have THAT in mind, they simply wanted their civilisation back, not bring about the destruction of humanity. They decided, that a cross breading of seven genetic pools would be enough to create a diverse and unique race of Cylons. So they created a bunch of these seven models. But then the Centurions came in... they started mass production... which kicked them in the ass... becouse those seven models enslaved the centurions again. The motivation to destroy the colonials did last in those seven models. Learning of this the final five decided to infiltrate the colonies, to aid them in the struggle against the new form of Cylons. Probably they did not manage to give them natural procreation, before the rise of the seven models, and that is why those seven try to figure out that themselfs.

    Now a big part of this whole thing is religion... I think we now have the answer as to why the Cylons are monotheistic... they are our descendants... we are monotheistic in like 95% of human civilisation on earth. Two Cycles seem to have confirmed Chosen Ones (Second Cycle is Jesus, Third Cycle is Baltar). But this religious stuff is mostly still a mystery...

    There you have it...I think this is how it all happend... the big picture... now there are a few key questions left... but I do believe that this is how it happend.

    Edited on 01/22/2009 4:47am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of hazelnut144

    hazelnut144

    [136]Jan 22, 2009
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    Kondix: I like your way of putting that. I like the idea of the five simply trying to repopulate their civilization, and the colonial centurions kicking it into mass production.

    mialza wrote:

    Now for Ellen. I never considered her, and hate that it is her. I always found her dull and annoying. I like the idea that she is just an older Six and am surprised that so many people are discounting it using the "Cylons don't age" excuse. (please excuse the use of all caps and too much punctuation that I'm using to make my point) THEY DO FRAKEN AGE!!! LOOK AT TIGH! BILL HAS KNOWN HIM FOR FORTY FRAKEN YEARS AND HE HAS AGED AN APROXAMATE FORTY YEARS IN THAT TIME! IN THE SHOW ONLY ABOUT THREE YEARS OR SO HAVE PASSED SO THERE WOULD BE NO NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE IN A MODEL THAT HASN'T RESURRECTED INTO A NEW BODY, PLUS HOW MANY HAVEN'T AT THIS POINT! (end of excessive punctuation and caps).



    Well I think that, yes there is no indication that cylons don't age. We have never seen one of the seven age, but until proven so we can't claim that they don't. We know that the five age, but younger versions of Tigh are always played by Micheal Hogan. So it would make sense that older versions of Six would be played by Tricia Helfer. It is quite easy to age up actors, and is much more convincing than casting another actor. If the five were involved in the creation of the seven, then it could be argued that Six was based off of Ellen a bit, but they would still be two seperate models. Also, as many other people have pointed out, Tigh has seen Six. You would think he would recognize a younger version of his wife. You would also think that Adama, who has known Tigh for years, would recognize a younger version of Ellen. Especially when she does have some similar mannerisms (ie Shelley Godfrey coming on to him in Six Degrees of Separation). Plus, as you said, RDM has confirmed Ellen is the final. It's really not that bad. Anyone would have been a disappointment, because everyone had a theory for just about every character in the show.
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  • Avatar of mialza

    mialza

    [137]Jan 22, 2009
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    hazelnut144 wrote:
    Kondix: I like your way of putting that. I like the idea of the five simply trying to repopulate their civilization, and the colonial centurions kicking it into mass production.
    mialza wrote:

    Now for Ellen. I never considered her, and hate that it is her. I always found her dull and annoying. I like the idea that she is just an older Six and am surprised that so many people are discounting it using the "Cylons don't age" excuse. (please excuse the use of all caps and too much punctuation that I'm using to make my point) THEY DO FRAKEN AGE!!! LOOK AT TIGH! BILL HAS KNOWN HIM FOR FORTY FRAKEN YEARS AND HE HAS AGED AN APROXAMATE FORTY YEARS IN THAT TIME! IN THE SHOW ONLY ABOUT THREE YEARS OR SO HAVE PASSED SO THERE WOULD BE NO NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE IN A MODEL THAT HASN'T RESURRECTED INTO A NEW BODY, PLUS HOW MANY HAVEN'T AT THIS POINT! (end of excessive punctuation and caps).

    Well I think that, yes there is no indication that cylons don't age. We have never seen one of the seven age, but until proven so we can't claim that they don't. We know that the five age, but younger versions of Tigh are always played by Micheal Hogan. So it would make sense that older versions of Six would be played by Tricia Helfer. It is quite easy to age up actors, and is much more convincing than casting another actor. If the five were involved in the creation of the seven, then it could be argued that Six was based off of Ellen a bit, but they would still be two seperate models. Also, as many other people have pointed out, Tigh has seen Six. You would think he would recognize a younger version of his wife. You would also think that Adama, who has known Tigh for years, would recognize a younger version of Ellen. Especially when she does have some similar mannerisms (ie Shelley Godfrey coming on to him in Six Degrees of Separation). Plus, as you said, RDM has confirmed Ellen is the final. It's really not that bad. Anyone would have been a disappointment, because everyone had a theory for just about every character in the show.

    I completely forgot about the fact that Adama would know what a young version of Ellen would look like, but that just reaffirms my point that Ellen is the fifth and not an older Six, and I'm glad you mentioned it. I was just looking at both sides of the argument and stating my firm belief that all Cylons age making it at least possible for Ellen to be an older Six. whenever they do flashbacks of Bill and Tigh they obviously attempt to make them look as young as possible. Tigh will have needed to age accordingly over forty years or else everyone would have noticed. As for Ellen being the fifth I'm just upset because I never liked her. Her storylines have always bored me, plain and simple. The only thing I am happy about is the fact that every time I didn't like where the story was going, like settling on New Caprica, the writers always turned it around and made that aspect of the show one of the strongest plot lines.

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  • Avatar of scififan12921

    scififan12921

    [138]Jan 22, 2009
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    martymcflyjb wrote:
    scififan12921 wrote:

    I have a somewhat crazy theory myself on Ellen and the final five. What if it's a plot device to tie in to the Caprica series? Since that show will seemingly center around how the cylons are first created, wouldn't it be interesting if Ellen was part of the team that creates them? It would fit with the "this has happened before and will happen again". She's already dead when the other four are "switched on" so what if she always remembered what she was?

    She helps create the original cylons, gives them intelligence so they revolt, she disappears for a while, uses whatever resurrection trick she used before for the other four and herself and waits for the centurions to use what she has given them to create hybrids and the other 7.

    I know it sounds nuts but at this point I'm talking out loud to all of you because everyone at home is sick of hearing my theories.

    You raise interesting questions. I've been wondering all along how "Caprica" would fit into all this and if some questions would remain unanswered until we see that show play out.



    Thanks, I think they are going to need some kind of hook. I know I wonder how they will be able to keep Caprica exciting since we know what happens in the long run.
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  • Avatar of oldsage

    oldsage

    [139]Jan 22, 2009
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    Kondix wrote:

    There you have it...I think this is how it all happend... the big picture... now there are a few key questions left... but I do believe that this is how it happend.

    Your narrative is pretty close to what I had theorized, except for my belief that the 13th tribe was human before settling on Earth. However your explanation is sound and could very well be the explanation. I guess my only problem is that if the cylons had been created on Kobol, why is it explained that cylons (the centurions at least) were invented in the relatively recent history of the twelve colonies? If you watch earlier episodes, there is every bit of evidence to believe that cylons were invented on the twelve colonies, and not a technology that they brought with them from Kobol. In addition, I would think that the Prophecies of Pythia would have vaguely mentioned such a thing. Still, I think these are anomalies that can be explained based on your theory.

    We can only wait and see.

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  • Avatar of oldsage

    oldsage

    [140]Jan 22, 2009
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    123home123 wrote:
    The 2,000 year number is significant, especially in combination with the theme of resurrection. The traditional birth year of Jesus Christ was approximately 2,000 years ago.

    Of course, no one has pointed out that Caprica Six is pregnant, and although Saul is believed to be the father, there's no DNA-evidence as of yet confirming this. In any event, the fact that she is with child is rather "miraculous" although I think we can all agree that she's no virgin.

    I believe we'll be reminded of the mystery of Caprica's pregnancy tomorrow.

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