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Discussion - "Sometimes a Great Notion" (1/16/09)(Spoilers)

How would you rate this episode?

  • Avatar of MetaLuna

    MetaLuna

    [141]Jan 22, 2009
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    For those of you arguing that Cylons must age because Saul did... no. They are DIFFERENT TYPES OF CYLONS. I think we may even find that the "Final Five" are not, strictly speaking, Cylons at all.

    But keep in mind that, in the original series, Cylons were a separate race, not created by humans at all.

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  • Avatar of Kondix

    Kondix

    [142]Jan 22, 2009
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    oldsage wrote:

    Your narrative is pretty close to what I had theorized, except for my belief that the 13th tribe was human before settling on Earth. However your explanation is sound and could very well be the explanation. I guess my only problem is that if the cylons had been created on Kobol, why is it explained that cylons (the centurions at least) were invented in the relatively recent history of the twelve colonies? If you watch earlier episodes, there is every bit of evidence to believe that cylons were invented on the twelve colonies, and not a technology that they brought with them from Kobol. In addition, I would think that the Prophecies of Pythia would have vaguely mentioned such a thing. Still, I think these are anomalies that can be explained based on your theory.

    We can only wait and see.

    No... I don't believe the Cylon Centurions are Kobol-technology based... For me there are two options... the Centurions got invented on earth, and through the final five, this technology could have travelled to the colonies...OR

    The human-cylons on earth invented their centurions... the humans on the colonis invented through coincidence or gods divine influence the same type of mashine, just little diffrent in design and 2000 years later.... In this show I'd rather believe in divine influence.

    And just to add to the overall discussion about aging Cylons.... there were absolutly no hints regarding the Cylons NOT aging. I have seen this show as a whole two times.... and up to Pegasus probably 4 times... (I kno I am crazy).... the aging of Cylons was never really a topic... the viewer asumed some stuff... but it was never really discusssed "on air"...

    I believe all models of Cylon age... somehow... most of the seven models are simply not alive long enough to age... couse they get kicked by the fleet. And a person does not change that much in the timeframe of four years regarding age. Hairstyle changes... bodyfat might change... but not really the visible age of someone.

    Edited on 01/22/2009 11:16pm
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [143]Jan 23, 2009
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    They also need to explain why there are different variations of Number Six. I think all the other Cylons we've seen are identical throughout the entire line, but not the Number Sixes. Natalie, Gina and Head Six all have slightly different hair color. One of the Sixes on the infected base ship had dark hair. We don't see this variety with the Sharons, D'annas, Cavils, Leobens, Simons or Dorals.
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  • Avatar of mialza

    mialza

    [144]Jan 23, 2009
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    123home123 wrote:
    They also need to explain why there are different variations of Number Six. I think all the other Cylons we've seen are identical throughout the entire line, but not the Number Sixes. Natalie, Gina and Head Six all have slightly different hair color. One of the Sixes on the infected base ship had dark hair. We don't see this variety with the Sharons, D'annas, Cavils, Leobens, Simons or Dorals.

    The only explanation I heard before was that the Six's seemed to be specialists in espionage and spying, while the others had different jobs. While each model at one time of another had been placed undercover, there just seemed to be far more Sixs then any of the others, on the Galactica, the Pegasus and even Baltars head. They needed to be able to infiltrate different areas so they needed slight variations. A weak excuse but the only one I can think of.

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  • Avatar of hazelnut144

    hazelnut144

    [145]Jan 23, 2009
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    Yeah, well that explanation sort of makes sense. Another thing about the Sixes, they all seem to have different identities. Gina, Natalie, Caprica, Shelley Godfrey etc. I mean all the eights are Sharon, it seems, and all the ones are Cavill, and all the threes are D'Anna. It seems a little odd.
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  • Avatar of hoobydictator

    hoobydictator

    [146]Jan 23, 2009
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    Kondix wrote:

    No... I don't believe the Cylon Centurions are Kobol-technology based... For me there are two options... the Centurions got invented on earth, and through the final five, this technology could have travelled to the colonies...OR

    The human-cylons on earth invented their centurions... the humans on the colonis invented through coincidence or gods divine influence the same type of mashine, just little diffrent in design and 2000 years later.... In this show I'd rather believe in divine influence.

    It would actually make more sense if there were Cylons on Kobol. Let's write the history like this...

    The humans on Kobol create Cylons. The Cylons rebel, they fight, the civilisation is destroyed. The survivors go their separate ways; the Cylons to Earth, the humans to the colonies.

    Time passes, the Cylons evolve, the humans evolve. They forget the details of their history. A few humans remember a legend about a 13th colony called Earth. The Cylons remember something about some other colonies. They each think the other group is part of their own kind because the history of exactly what happened on Kobol has been lost.

    The Cylons on Earth create their machines, and lo, they do exactly the same thing and they rebel against their masters. The civilisation winds up on the brink of destruction. Five individuals find a way to resurrect themselves and resolve to escape and go looking for the colonies in their legends. They build their resurrection apparatus on the algae planet (the temple). When the destruction of their world comes, they resurrect. They integrate with the human society they find, but have difficulty remembering their past lives, so they plant clues just in case they need to return (things like the scrolls of Pythia that wind up being integrated into the colonial religion). As they die, so they resurrect and have spent two thousand years doing so. As a result their memory of who they were and where they came from is no longer accessible to them but can be triggered by stimuli such as places and objects.

    The humans in the colonies create their Cylons, and they rebel. There is war. These new Cylons work out how to build human forms and plan eight models. The first to be completed is the seven model. Just as D'Anna could see echoes of the five between life and death, the seven sees those images and becomes obsessed with them to the point at which the Centurians decide the line is completely flawed and box the ones that have been built. As a safeguard, the remaining Cylons are told that there are five other models out there and are programmed not to pursue the matter. The Cylons are persuaded to cease the war and the armistice is signed.

    So, the thing that has happened before and will happen again has occurred three times over. The same mistakes being repeated again and again. I suspect that part of the remainder of the series will be about finding a way to stop the cycle repeating itself, but like everything else, it's all just another crackpot theory that probably won't pan out.

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  • Avatar of pumpkinhead2

    pumpkinhead2

    [147]Jan 23, 2009
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    I am still not convinced that this is "OUR" Earth.

    I think that they will end up being the founders of the planet we now call earth.

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  • Avatar of psychickiller

    psychickiller

    [148]Jan 23, 2009
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    I'd like to throw in another thing that wasn't mentioned, before the discussion here will cease and be moved to the new episode's topic...

    Kara's viper.

    Even if she is an earthling human Cylon, who is able to resurrect like the final five, how did she get her hands on a brand-new viper? That kind of ruins the possibility she's similar to the final five, because I find it very unlikely there were vipers stored around Earth.

    The most I think of it, the more Kara just scares the crap out of me.
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  • Avatar of PineTreeMouse

    PineTreeMouse

    [149]Jan 23, 2009
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    hazelnut144 wrote:
    Yeah, well that explanation sort of makes sense. Another thing about the Sixes, they all seem to have different identities. Gina, Natalie, Caprica, Shelley Godfrey etc. I mean all the eights are Sharon, it seems, and all the ones are Cavill, and all the threes are D'Anna. It seems a little odd.


    I think that the change in hair colour simply denotes that the sixes are developing individual personalities. We have seen errant behaviour in the Sharon model and the others we dont know enough about. I would suggest that those models that have the most contact with humans will betrary the more individual behaviour. Think of it this way: if the only interactions you have are with the same basic 6 people (as in the case of the Dorels, Cavills and Simons) then you are not going to radically change. However for the sixes and eights they had the full experience of Caprica 6 and Boomer and Athena to draw upon. Now the Leobens not 100% but there interaction seems mostly focused on one person ie. Starbuck, so haven't interacted with a huge amount of humans.

    In the occupation of New Caprica the cylon-human interactions were kept to a minimum so it is only those models that had maximum exposure are exhibiting individual behaviour.

    Maybe
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  • Avatar of PineTreeMouse

    PineTreeMouse

    [150]Jan 23, 2009
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    hoobydictator wrote:
    Kondix wrote:

    No... I don't believe the Cylon Centurions are Kobol-technology based... For me there are two options... the Centurions got invented on earth, and through the final five, this technology could have travelled to the colonies...OR

    The human-cylons on earth invented their centurions... the humans on the colonis invented through coincidence or gods divine influence the same type of mashine, just little diffrent in design and 2000 years later.... In this show I'd rather believe in divine influence.

    It would actually make more sense if there were Cylons on Kobol. Let's write the history like this...

    The humans on Kobol create Cylons. The Cylons rebel, they fight, the civilisation is destroyed. The survivors go their separate ways; the Cylons to Earth, the humans to the colonies.

    Time passes, the Cylons evolve, the humans evolve. They forget the details of their history. A few humans remember a legend about a 13th colony called Earth. The Cylons remember something about some other colonies. They each think the other group is part of their own kind because the history of exactly what happened on Kobol has been lost.

    The Cylons on Earth create their machines, and lo, they do exactly the same thing and they rebel against their masters. The civilisation winds up on the brink of destruction. Five individuals find a way to resurrect themselves and resolve to escape and go looking for the colonies in their legends. They build their resurrection apparatus on the algae planet (the temple). When the destruction of their world comes, they resurrect. They integrate with the human society they find, but have difficulty remembering their past lives, so they plant clues just in case they need to return (things like the scrolls of Pythia that wind up being integrated into the colonial religion). As they die, so they resurrect and have spent two thousand years doing so. As a result their memory of who they were and where they came from is no longer accessible to them but can be triggered by stimuli such as places and objects.

    The humans in the colonies create their Cylons, and they rebel. There is war. These new Cylons work out how to build human forms and plan eight models. The first to be completed is the seven model. Just as D'Anna could see echoes of the five between life and death, the seven sees those images and becomes obsessed with them to the point at which the Centurians decide the line is completely flawed and box the ones that have been built. As a safeguard, the remaining Cylons are told that there are five other models out there and are programmed not to pursue the matter. The Cylons are persuaded to cease the war and the armistice is signed.

    So, the thing that has happened before and will happen again has occurred three times over. The same mistakes being repeated again and again. I suspect that part of the remainder of the series will be about finding a way to stop the cycle repeating itself, but like everything else, it's all just another crackpot theory that probably won't pan out.



    I think this is an interesting idea and goes with s/thing I have been thinking of...

    I do have one issue (and it is a general issue with the show): they left Kobol 3500 years ago (I think that is right - dont have access to series 1-3 at the moment)but the only record they have is in the Book of Pythia?!? Didnt they have things like space travel and hard drives and memory sticks (ok definitely space travel so why not the others as well?). There must be some reason why the records of that time are so poor especially given for such a technologically advanced people (which also raises the question of how and why technology has stagnated in all that time until the 'breakthrough' of cylon technology? hmmm...)
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  • Avatar of Daxx00004

    Daxx00004

    [151]Jan 23, 2009
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    mialza wrote:

    123home123 wrote:
    They also need to explain why there are different variations of Number Six. I think all the other Cylons we've seen are identical throughout the entire line, but not the Number Sixes. Natalie, Gina and Head Six all have slightly different hair color. One of the Sixes on the infected base ship had dark hair. We don't see this variety with the Sharons, D'annas, Cavils, Leobens, Simons or Dorals.

    The only explanation I heard before was that the Six's seemed to be specialists in espionage and spying, while the others had different jobs. While each model at one time of another had been placed undercover, there just seemed to be far more Sixs then any of the others, on the Galactica, the Pegasus and even Baltars head. They needed to be able to infiltrate different areas so they needed slight variations. A weak excuse but the only one I can think of.


    The sixes seem to be more sexual than the other models. Maybe they color their hair to make themselves feel more sexy.
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  • Avatar of martymcflyjb

    martymcflyjb

    [152]Jan 23, 2009
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    Kondix wrote:
    Possibility Two:

    They arrive during the first war with the Cylons. Maybe they then managed to talk the centurions into leaving the 12 colonies alone. They promised those centurions human forms maybe, all with the thought in mind, to rebuild their civilisation of human looking Cylons. As the centurions could not gain any significant victory against the humans, they saw these human forms as a possibility to infiltrate the colonies and take them out in one swift strike. But the final five did not have THAT in mind, they simply wanted their civilisation back, not bring about the destruction of humanity. They decided, that a cross breading of seven genetic pools would be enough to create a diverse and unique race of Cylons. So they created a bunch of these seven models. But then the Centurions came in... they started mass production... which kicked them in the ass... becouse those seven models enslaved the centurions again. The motivation to destroy the colonials did last in those seven models. Learning of this the final five decided to infiltrate the colonies, to aid them in the struggle against the new form of Cylons. Probably they did not manage to give them natural procreation, before the rise of the seven models, and that is why those seven try to figure out that themselfs.

    I like this theory a lot. I would just add that maybe the Seven, early on after being created by the Five, erased the Five's memories and exiled them to the Colonies to get rid of them, and only now with their proximity to their homeworld are they starting to remember their true selves.

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  • Avatar of martymcflyjb

    martymcflyjb

    [153]Jan 23, 2009
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    Kondix wrote:
    I believe all models of Cylon age... somehow... most of the seven models are simply not alive long enough to age... couse they get kicked by the fleet. And a person does not change that much in the timeframe of four years regarding age. Hairstyle changes... bodyfat might change... but not really the visible age of someone.

    But if that were the case, wouldn't we have (at least early on) seen different ages among each model, especially the Cavills since they are older?

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [154]Jan 23, 2009
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    PineTreeMouse wrote:
    I do have one issue (and it is a general issue with the show): they left Kobol 3500 years ago (I think that is right - dont have access to series 1-3 at the moment)but the only record they have is in the Book of Pythia?!? Didnt they have things like space travel and hard drives and memory sticks (ok definitely space travel so why not the others as well?). There must be some reason why the records of that time are so poor especially given for such a technologically advanced people (which also raises the question of how and why technology has stagnated in all that time until the 'breakthrough' of cylon technology? hmmm...)

    This issue was brought up on the forum last year (or the year before). This is actually a significant issue in real life because more and more of our society's knowledge is being stored electronically. As most people know, storage systems and technologies change very rapidly in our own society. A few decades ago, tape storage was supposed to be one of the best ways of archiving voluminous amounts of electronic data. We've seen the rise and fall of the floppy disc and the Zip drive (remember those?). The hard drive has been widespread for a few decades now but we are slowly seeing solid-state drives moving into the market. Many people carry around flash drives these days. All this change has taken place in just a few decades. Imagine what things will be like in 100 years. Or 1000.

    Then there's the problem of file formats. Word processing and spreadsheet programs have used all sorts of formats until Microsoft Office became dominant. Adobe's PDF format has also become a standard. But what if those standards fade away like many of the popular formats from the 1980s? What would happen to all the documents saved in .doc and .pdf formats? Even if hard drives and flash drives still work in 100 years, can future computers and programs read those files?

    Some computer scientists and archivists are struggling with this problem right now. As libraries become more reliant on electronic forms of storage, these questions become vital for preserving the cumulative knowledge of our societies. If we're not careful, we could lose a lot of our knowledge because of rapid changes in storage technology and file formats. A future planetary war could make such questions seem unimportant.

    And this is possibly what happened to Colonial civilization. It's not implausible to say that short-sightedness could have led their civilization to be unprepared for technological change, natural disasters and wars. I don't know if this is an official explanation or not, but it makes a lot of sense.
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  • Avatar of hoobydictator

    hoobydictator

    [155]Jan 24, 2009
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    123home123 wrote:
    PineTreeMouse wrote:
    I do have one issue (and it is a general issue with the show): they left Kobol 3500 years ago (I think that is right - dont have access to series 1-3 at the moment)but the only record they have is in the Book of Pythia?!? Didnt they have things like space travel and hard drives and memory sticks (ok definitely space travel so why not the others as well?). There must be some reason why the records of that time are so poor especially given for such a technologically advanced people (which also raises the question of how and why technology has stagnated in all that time until the 'breakthrough' of cylon technology? hmmm...)
    As libraries become more reliant on electronic forms of storage, these questions become vital for preserving the cumulative knowledge of our societies. If we're not careful, we could lose a lot of our knowledge because of rapid changes in storage technology and file formats. A future planetary war could make such questions seem unimportant. And this is possibly what happened to Colonial civilization. It's not implausible to say that short-sightedness could have led their civilization to be unprepared for technological change, natural disasters and wars. I don't know if this is an official explanation or not, but it makes a lot of sense.

    It is not just changes in technology that are the problem. All of our methods of storing information are subject to some form of degradation. The compact disc, despite being marketed in the early days as being indestructable is actually relatively easy to damage. Break the protective shell on the disc and you let air in that causes the metalic layer that holds the information to tarnish; the disc goes a mucky brown /black colour and is rendered unreadable. Even solid state technology will not last. Electrical joints on circuit boards these days use solder with a higher percentage of tin thanks to the banning of lead. Tin, over time, undergoes a "whiskering" effect with the result that the solder may end up not doing its job properly and the device is rendered useless. With things like memory sticks, which are a relatively recent invention, do we really know how long the circuitry will retain the information for before it breaks down?

    In this case it would be the exodus from place to place which is causing the loss of information. A civilisation stripped of its numbers and its infrastructure has to rebuild and that takes time. Once you have such a population trying to exist on a new world in a hash environment then the need to survive overtakes the need to maintain the technology or rebuild libraries of information with the result that knowledge is lost and the civilisation takes a great big technological jump backwards. That was what was depicted on New Caprica; a year on and they were all still living in tents trying to survive. It would only have been a matter of time before all those ships would have been stripped down for their useful parts at which point a space-faring people become rooted to one spot.

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  • Avatar of martymcflyjb

    martymcflyjb

    [156]Jan 24, 2009
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    And it would make sense that as all the more advanced records were lost, all that would remain would be old scrolls like Pythia.
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  • Avatar of pumpkinhead2

    pumpkinhead2

    [157]Jan 24, 2009
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    I can't help but feel that the ship of lights has something to do with Kara's resurrection.

    In the original series the Ship of Lights provided the Colonials with the co-ordinates to Earth.

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [158]Jan 25, 2009
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    I'm going to unpin this thread so we don't have too many discussion threads pinned on the forum at the same time.

    Feel free to add to the discussion but be sure not to post spoilers from episodes after this one. The standard spoiler policy for discussion threads is that anything in the episode is fair game, and brief references to previous episodes are OK too. But don't post any spoilers from subsequent episodes. If someone watches the series on DVD later on, or watches TV broadcasts in a different country, they may check this thread before they see following episodes. Thanks.
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