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Discussion - "The Woman King" (2/11/07 episode) (spoilers)

  • Avatar of AprilFox

    AprilFox

    [41]Feb 12, 2007
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    gcswift2 wrote:
    I think they did that so they could just skip to the story, because I don't remember those conversations either. Did they put up a survivors number in this ep?
    41,401 .
    Edited on 02/12/2007 10:12am
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  • Avatar of Nethicus

    Nethicus

    [42]Feb 12, 2007
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    I'm getting tired of the whole "Helo is married to a Cylon" bit. What is this, high school?

    /troll

    The bonus scene was probably the biggest eye-opener on the episode, much like the additional footage from "Taking a Break From All Your Worries" was quite important.


    ***SPOILER***

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  • Avatar of boromirbeauty

    boromirbeauty

    [43]Feb 12, 2007
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    Correct me if I'm wrong (and forgive me if it's already been said) but I thought Sharon told Helo that "they brought Hera" to this other doctor. Not that Sharon brought her there herself. Not that it really matters, but I did notice that several people brought up the subject of Hera going to the doctor.

    I enjoyed the episode a great deal. I love that they had one revolving around Helo. Nethicus- you're right about the bonus scene, very telling info there.
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  • Avatar of copygeek

    copygeek

    [44]Feb 12, 2007
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    boromirbeauty wrote:
    Correct me if I'm wrong (and forgive me if it's already been said) but I thought Sharon told Helo that "they brought Hera" to this other doctor. Not that Sharon brought her there herself. Not that it really matters, but I did notice that several people brought up the subject of Hera going to the doctor. I enjoyed the episode a great deal. I love that they had one revolving around Helo. Nethicus- you're right about the bonus scene, very telling info there.

    Check the dates of some of those comments. Before the episode, it wasn't clear if Sharon had chosen to take Hera to Dr. Robert, or if someone else (Dr. Cottle) had made that decision for her. Now that the episode has aired, we know that it wasn't Sharon's choice.

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  • Avatar of boromirbeauty

    boromirbeauty

    [45]Feb 12, 2007
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    Sorry. My mistake.
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  • Avatar of kvavatar

    kvavatar

    [46]Feb 12, 2007
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    A quick, slightly uninformed, question about those "cut segments" at the end of the episode...

    Are they actually considered to have happened in the canon of the show? If so, and they had time to air them at the end of the episode, why the frak don't they just leave it in it's proper place during the show?

    Both the one this week of Helo confessing and last week of Roslin and Six coming to a plea bargain of sorts, seem pretty important to the plot....

    I'm slightly confused about it.

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  • Avatar of eXXtended02

    eXXtended02

    [47]Feb 12, 2007
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    Very nice,
    Roslin starting to make connections between Baltar's and Caprica's inner others and Saul Tigh being THE MAN.
    Definitly not the filler episode I was afraid it'd be.

    /edit:Oh, and everything 123home123 said about Helo.
    Edited on 02/12/2007 3:34pm
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  • Avatar of gabfan31

    gabfan31

    [48]Feb 12, 2007
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    I hope they don't include the cut segment as part of the canon. It would only force Adama into another no win situation- punish Helo for his crime, or let another serious infraction go, and see discipline fail yet again. As far as the episode goes, we didn't get a Viper battle, but that was okay. What we did get was the strong drama and interesting relationships that was what made this a great series in the beginning. I hope they continue along these lines as the season continues. I have to say I'm worried about the imaginary Baltar- he seems to be doing as good a job of corrupting Caprica as the other Six did Baltar himself.  
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  • Avatar of chris_lsu

    chris_lsu

    [49]Feb 12, 2007
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    I'm still not getting where the refugees came from; it would have been nice if they'd mentioned an explanation in the show. The only sources I could think of are New Caprica, algae world, or another ship. But NC was evacuated several epsiodes back; you'd think any refugee problem they had would have been addressed quicker. And as far as I know, the algae world was only a military expedition - no civies allowed.

    Haven't seen it mentioned, but did anybody notice Rosalin telling Jarek that Balar would be tried and found guilty? Gotta wonder if it'll be little more than a show trial with a predetermined outcome, or if she's just that confident with their evidence. And Jarek didn't pose that question either: if it's all just for show, he's apparently OK with it in regards for Baltar's fate.

    Overall a great episode, but the question of where the refugees came from is bugging me. Kinda like watching a movie where the audio is just slightly out of sync with the video: it's minor, you try to ignore it, but it just itches on your brain and ends up taking away from the entire experience.  If somebody can provide a reasonable explantion, or tell me I just missed it in the episode, please let me know.
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  • Avatar of gabfan31

    gabfan31

    [50]Feb 12, 2007
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    I always figured they came from the ships that were destroyed during the Passage. They brought the civilians aboard Galactica for safety, but they couldn't go back to two of the ships because they were destroyed. But then I remember how many people they lost during the occupation and so on, and they would seem to have a smaller population to bo along with their fewer ships. So unless the lost ships were some of the largest passenger ships, there doesn't seem to be a logical explanation why they have all these civies aboard. 
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [51]Feb 12, 2007
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    Don't forget the destruction of the Pegasus. Any space that was used for civilians before would have been taken by Pegasus crew members or displaced Galactica personnel. And I don't think all the civilian ships got off of New Caprica. So if you add up the Pegasus, the lost ships on New Caprica and the ships lost in the "Passage," that's quite a few.

    A few people had been discussing this issue when "Exodus, Part 2" or "Collaborators" aired. The crowded conditions have been one of those lingering stories that hadn't been addressed until yesterday's episode. I had wondered more than once whether the subject would be covered this season, so I'm glad that the writers focused on it.
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  • Avatar of MichaudMR

    MichaudMR

    [52]Feb 12, 2007
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    One possible explanation for why civilians are being transfered to Galactica at this point would be the condition of the other ships in the fleet.  When everyone bailed out of their home worlds there was no time to pick and choose which ships to take, leave alone equip them for long term refugee duty.  The drain on the life support systems can only last so long before resources run out and equipment breaks down.  Therefore it's entirely plausible that people are being shifted around the fleet even without the immediate loss of one or more of the vessels.  If you add in the fleets reductions from the previous few episodes the problem becomes even more acute.
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  • Avatar of gabfan31

    gabfan31

    [53]Feb 12, 2007
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    Makes sense to me. This wasn't my biggest tripping point, anyways. But they have started this portion of the season well, and I hope it continues. A regretful look from Starbuck was more than enough to convey the underlying tension between her and Apollo without them having to shove it up our noses the way they've been doing too much of lately. Now all I need is a good space battle! Oh yeah, and Baltar's trial. 
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  • Avatar of JalineTV

    JalineTV

    [54]Feb 12, 2007
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    123home123 wrote:
    I liked this episode. There has been a lot of discussion about Helo on this forum and I'm sure on other BSG forums, about shooting Athena and about killing the Cylon prisoners to prevent the infection of the Cylon baseship. It's good to see that the writers tackled this matter head on.

    Helo is a complex character, and maybe the character most driven by his principles. Even from the very beginning in the miniseries, he was willing to sacrifice himself so that someone else could be saved. (He gave up his seat on Boomer's Raptor so that Baltar could be rescued. OK, maybe that wasn't such a good idea but he was trying to do the right thing at the time.)

    I admit that I was a little irritated by some of his actions in previous episodes but he sticks to his guns. In this episode, it ended up saving many innocent civilian lives. Though some might say that Dr. Robert had a point about the vaccine and the problems with treating Sagittarons, Helo (and Adama) would be right in rejecting Dr. Robert's reasoning. As Adama said before, cutting off the Sagittarons would destroy the souls of the leaders. And in this case, we are talking about fellow human beings, not Cylons.

    I find Helo and Athena's relationship to be more interesting than that of Lee and Kara because of the Cylon aspect. That element puts the relationship on an entirely different level (and it's certainly not something you would see on a soap opera).


    I agree with nearly all your points.

    - I love Helo. While he does think of himself as superior a lot of the time, he's usually right. And his relationship with Sharon is complex, which makes it more fascinating. There will probably be trouble coming soon though, since they've been relatively happy (with each other) for some time now. I'm glad that Helo got his own episode and his personality was explored further, continued from "A Measure of Salvation".

    - It's terribly obvious how Kara and Lee will be together eventually. Their relationship is frustrating to watch since the creators are probably going to drag it out forever.

    - I like Dualla a lot more this season. She's finally getting a personality!

    - I like Tory (Roslin's right-hand woman, heh) too.
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  • Avatar of greenbat22

    greenbat22

    [55]Feb 13, 2007
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    Helo is The Man!!!

    Ha, ha! I know that one gets under a few skins these days!

    But I really enjoyed "The Woman King". I easily prefer it to the last episode's retread of Baltar's longstanding guilt and questionable race plus the "I wanna frak another's spouse" standoff. I can understand the reasons for disliking this episode but I can look past them. Adama going back on his word about no more breaks; however, he said that after Helo did "the deed", and he must've already frackin' known who did the deed like Roslin did. As for Helo, I still stand by him -- not for whether he was right or wrong but for standing up for his beliefs; it's one thing to surrender your case to those who will sincerely weigh it; however, between Lee, Roslin, and an Adama who obviously didn't want to disappoint them, I don't think Helo could rightly leave his concerns at their blatantly unresponsive doorstep.

    But to the episode at hand. Good to see the Lee/Kara affair seriously toned down but still a treat seeing Kara's response; it's a good turnaround from Lee's sorrowful glance last episode but, also, it's Kara "Promiscuous Girl" Thrace getting disgusted at some snuggling! I second the notion that Zarek should have had a meatier role, whether as a supporter of the Sags or distancing himself from them for a reason. Tigh was a treat; good to see him socked but also his delightful laugh. I'm not so bothered by Adama's indecision as Helo really didn't have any solid evidence at the time. As for Cottle's lie, what, a doctor who breaks tradition by blowing smoke on his pts, lies to his pts for his president, and shadow boxes can't lie to get a moment's peace? After X-Men and the Crucible, seeing Bruce Davison as a character of moral question isn't good odds for the character. I certainly agree with others that this was where the episode should have been stronger (with more grey matter), especially when the poor man stood alone in the end. The Sags weren't all that sympathetic, and some extra stress could have been put on his helping Dee (a Sag who went military) and Hera (daughter to a Cylon who was instrumental in getting the humans off of N.C.). This resentment against the Sags is something that could have been better built in earlier episodes seasons back.

    Nice to see Head Baltar back, if only to see Callis not have to be on edge all the time -- though he does it so well. So Baltar wants to be a Cylon and Caprica wants to be human... I think Sharon was aware that the walls had ears; which was why the Cylons' conversation was so sparse without delving into feelings of divided loyalties.

    There are times when "frack" seems just a bit too safe and then there are times when you think the "r" was just a bit too weak. Beautiful, Penikett!

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  • Avatar of Mangalore

    Mangalore

    [56]Feb 13, 2007
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    maniac_____king wrote:
    i agree the beginning made me doubt whether i had missed an episode or not. this has happened several times whenever i watch that "previously ..."

    i feel the show could have done a lot better in introducing us to the appearance of the civilians.

    that aside, i thought this episode was excellent. the ethical issues concerning the new doctor was amazing.


    I think most of the times it is simply scenes that were filmed but got cut in the end but as I assume the episodes are worked on parallel aka in short order they cannot change it, in this case they would have lost the whole episode if they did as the setup was in those lost scenes.

    I like that they gave Helo the "crap job", not because I'm certain he deserves it but given that they didn't think his actions being all too well putting him out of harms way of critical decisions by giving him some civilians to care for was a good move that addresses his continued insubordination while preserving him as a good officer.

    What imo often is ignored with the discussions about disciplinary against this or that charakter is that they are all that are left. Even in his drunken state Tigh was the most senior, most experienced officer of the battlestar. They have far more open posts than officers so for me Adama's reluctance to crack down on some of those and put them on the wall seems to me sensible of the current situation. Better have them than lose them seems his motto.
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  • Avatar of spikedwraith

    spikedwraith

    [57]Feb 13, 2007
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    can someone tell me about the bonus scene...i didn't quite catch it, i tried looking on the sci fi website but it doesn't play...it just shows me an advert and thats it.
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  • Avatar of gabfan31

    gabfan31

    [58]Feb 13, 2007
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    All I saw was Helo telling Adama that he killed the Cylons, and Adama telling him that maybe he shouldn't be admitting this. Was there more?
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  • Avatar of boromirbeauty

    boromirbeauty

    [59]Feb 13, 2007
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    gabfan31 wrote:
    All I saw was Helo telling Adama that he killed the Cylons, and Adama telling him that maybe he shouldn't be admitting this. Was there more?


    That's all that I saw as well Gab.

    "it"
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  • Avatar of greenbat22

    greenbat22

    [60]Feb 13, 2007
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    In the extended scene, after Helo said he did it, Adama asked him if he really wanted to continue and go on record. Bill made sure to coolly mention that the process would include recording, an arrest, and likely a firing squad. Helo said "no" and Adama coolly dismissed him.
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