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Discussion - "Torn" (spoilers)

  • Avatar of DarqAli

    DarqAli

    [41]Nov 5, 2006
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    Excellent points,

    And as I tried to convey, we don't know the origin of the space object, though, the 13 th Tribe is a good guess, since the Cylons didn't know what it was; one would assume their superior "computer like" memory would include it were it one of their technology;

    We don't know if it was "infected" by the makers, intentionally so, and left for the Cylons specifically;

    We don't know if it became "infected" later, by some other means, by accident or on purpose;

    We don't actually know that it does not affect Humans. We do know it DOES affect Cylons, and they guessed Humans may be immune, but so far the only Human exposure has been to Baltar, and that limited by his p-suit.

    Interesting possibility: that the disease afflicts both Humans and Cylons, but not the hybrid Hera. Then, only she could save both species ...............

    But back to the major question this "infected device" asks us:

    IF it was left by the Humans of the 13 th Tribe, and IF they infected it on purpose, what does this tell us about WHEN the Cylons were created, and WHY the 13 th Tribe left the others?

    Again, my thinking was, the Lost Tribe never had any cylons. If they created a disease to kill them, I guessed wrong on that one.
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  • Avatar of Wedo765

    Wedo765

    [42]Nov 5, 2006
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    I heard a couple good points here, such as that we keep assuming the device is responsible because thats what the Cylons assumed, maybe it is just a device and the radiation from the Pulsar is actually whats responsible, like the Ragnar Anchorage.

    Plus somone else said mentioned the Cylons or an equivlant form of life, is it possible that the reason for the original Exodus from Kobol came about because the Humans there also created artifical life similar to the Cylons and they rebelled making Kobol was destroyed either in that war or in a last ditch effort by the 13 tribes to destroy there creations forcing the humans to leave, 12 tribes became the Colonies, but the 13th was paranoid, ran farther away and left a boby trap incase thier creations followed them, then the 12 Colonies eventually repeated history, given stock to 6 saying "All this has happened before and all this will happen again"
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  • Avatar of DarqAli

    DarqAli

    [43]Nov 5, 2006
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    All possible, of course.

    From the history we know, the last Cylon War ended but 40 years ago, and the new "skin type" Cylons evolved very recently, since that time. One posits that the Cylons the 12 colonies are now dealing with are far more recent than the migration of all the Humans from Kobol.

    Head Six tells Baltar on Kobol that the "Gods" and Humans lived well there, on Kobol, for a time; but she shows him piles of human skulls and says something about human sacrifice, killing, that ended their stay there.

    Did Humans begin on Kobol, then? The 13 Tribes left there, but that is not to say it is their origin.

    "Life Here began Out There", that is from their Scripture.

    The names from the Colonial Pantheon of gods ring familiar to us, mainly from the Greek but some references echo Roman, Egyptian, Norse and other Earth languages as well. "Life Here began Out There"

    The 13 Tribes left Kobol, but who is to say the STARTED there?

    Perhaps the Lords of Kobol, who have names we recognize, and Humankind too, began on Earth, and the Lords of Kobol left Earth with some Humans, and settled on Kobol. Later, because of "whatever happened", the 13 Tribes left.

    12 became the Colonies of the BSG story, but the 13 th went on a longer journey .......... BACK to Earth, from which all Humankind came. In that case, the Bouy marker may be older yet than the migration of the 13 th Tribe, for it may have been left by the Lords of Kobol on their journey FROM Earth on their way TO Kobol, longer ago yet in time.

    And so the Map to Earth was known, for the peoples of Kobol might have arrived there long ago, from the ancestral home of all, Earth. The 13 th Tribe was going home.
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  • Avatar of wedgeantilles54

    wedgeantilles54

    [44]Nov 5, 2006
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    Very interesting theory, it could make sense espically considering the map on kobol

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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [45]Nov 5, 2006
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    Was the "Life here began out there" line used in this series? I thought it came from the original series only.

    As for the development of the Cylons, we have an approximate timeline based on the prequel-in-development, Caprica. The Cylons were only created 50 years ago. It seems like the 13th tribe left Kobol much earlier than that. Everyone always refers to that exodus as though it were ancient history ("ancient" being an imprecise term but usually meaning centuries ago).
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  • Avatar of Durbola

    Durbola

    [46]Nov 5, 2006
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    DarqAli wrote:
    And
    so the Map to Earth was known, for the peoples of Kobol might have
    arrived there long ago, from the ancestral home of all, Earth. The 13
    th Tribe was going home.

    And so the Map to Earth was known, for the peoples of Kobol might have arrived there long ago, from the ancestral home of all, Earth. The 13 th Tribe was going home.


    I think you've nailed it on the head. Its only
    logical that if a map that led to Earth were found on Kobol, from the
    perspective of being on the planet, that its existence and location were known
    to the tribes prior to their exodus. (Or at least the thirteenth tribe)
    Something such as their ancestral home would make perfect sense.


    DarqAli wrote:
    12 became the Colonies of the BSG story, but the 13 th went on a longer
    journey .......... BACK to Earth, from which all Humankind came. In
    that case, the Bouy marker may be older yet than the migration of the
    13 th Tribe, for it may have been left by the Lords of Kobol on their
    journey FROM Earth on their way TO Kobol, longer ago yet in time.



    I had mentioned the "equivalent form of life", but DarqAli has
    inspired another avenue of thought. Although I'm unsure of the connection to the beacon, though DarqAli has made a persuasive argument, I think that pursuit of the identity of the thirteenth tribe to be the most important.

    (Another point could be made about the Title Credits of the show, which changed between Season 2 and 3 from "In search of a home...called Earth" to "Far from home"; perhaps a subtle hint that Earth is their true home)

    Instead perhaps this, the storyline up to now, fits the
    cyclic nature that Number Six, Baltar's personal "companion", often
    discusses that all that occurs has happened before and will happen again. There in fact may have been no thirteenth tribe on Kobol (unless direct
    reference to them I am unaware of), but rather born from the ashes of the
    twelve colonies is the thirteenth (the fleet) that has begun its voyage to Earth,
    which may be their ancestral home, where the cycle will some time in the future
    reset itself and the events that have transpired will occur again. Thus the cycle may resemble: Leaving Earth, Settling on Kobol, then Forming the Twelve Colonies, Forming the Thirteenth Colony (the fleet) from the ashes, and returning to Earth where the cycle can begin again. (Roughly at least) I hope that I haven't confused anyone, and their insights are most welcome pertaining to this new strain of thought.

    Sorry, just another brainstorm that the legends amongst the people of Kobol being a place where the gods and humans lived in piece together can be explained, at least in part by this cycle. The naming of the child of Helo & Sharon, Hera, is the first hint since she was god in the Greek pantheon that is favoured by the show to express the polytheistic beliefs of the humans. Thus the Cylon/Human children are the gods that occupied Kobol with the humans and this is further supported by the miracle that the blood of Hera provided by curing Roslin's cancer. Any thoughts?
    Edited on 11/05/2006 5:52pm
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  • Avatar of DarqAli

    DarqAli

    [47]Nov 5, 2006
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    I never watched the origional series, so the phrase "Life here began out there" must come from this one.

    "All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again" is used repeatedly as Scripture, too. A clear statement: in the Universe of BSG, time is not linier, it is cyclical. Goes in a circle, not a straight line.

    The date of the Tribes leaving Kobol is given at about 2000 years in the past. The date of the END of the first Cylon war is given as 40 years in the past. Logic says, the 13 th Tribe which left Kobol and disappeared into the mists of time and legend never had any Cylons with them, nor did the other Tribes have them at the time that lost tribe left. Therefore, the Space Bouy being a deliberate Human "booby trap" to prevent the Cylons from reaching Earth seems illogical.

    Not to say it isn't true {the writers will determine that} but only that it seems to conflict with what we think we know, so far.

    What fun!
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [48]Nov 5, 2006
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    Here's a link to the first intro from the original series: BSG 1978. The references to the "Chariots of the Gods" backstory were more explicit in the original series.

    I'm still not convinced that the Earth in the new series is our regular Earth. I don't know that we'll ever see the Earth on BSG but if we do, it may not be our Earth. I have a feeling that there is going to be something "different" about it. I haven't read any spoilers about this. It's just a feeling I have.
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  • Avatar of StelingMB

    StelingMB

    [49]Nov 5, 2006
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    I think if they found 'us' I'd be really disappointed. It would seem to show a lack of creativity, which is certainly never the case with the BSG gang. So not a likely option...
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  • Avatar of ozwitch

    ozwitch

    [50]Nov 6, 2006
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    And I'm praying to all the gods that exist out there that the RTFF don't encounter a large mass of chronometric particles that sends them back in time to seed a device in the Lion's Head that will kick Cylon butt some thousands of years in the future . . .

    Please no. Anything but that.
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  • Avatar of StelingMB

    StelingMB

    [51]Nov 6, 2006
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    RTFF...?
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  • Avatar of Chainblast

    Chainblast

    [52]Nov 6, 2006
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    You got to wonder why the model 6 Cylon Batlar was asking about the device said it must have been left by the 13th tribe to destroy them (them being Cylons) when according to what we know the Cylons weren't around then. But one of the things that also caught my attention was, up until this point all models of Cylon have looked exactly the same, minus clothing differences and what not. However, the dying 6 Batlar talks to has a different hair style and colour. It's probably nothing but why hasn't this been the case ever before?
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  • Avatar of DarqAli

    DarqAli

    [53]Nov 6, 2006
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    Actually, the copy of Six held captive on Pegasus had rather different hair than Baltar's Six and Head Six, too. All had blonde hair, but Caprica Six and Head Six have rather lighter blonde, very bleached. The abused one on Pegasus had very different hair. And the "Shelly Godfrey" version was very different too, though her much more "subdued" persona {conservative clothes, nerdy glasses} was more style of dress and manner {not seductive} than physical appearance.

    Hair color may be a matter of preference. It is clear that while each skin-job Cylon we meet is one of many copies of a given model, they ARE individuals. Yes, they tend to think rather alike in many ways, and their decision making is done by bloc voting by model. Yet there are definite individual differences; if that were not so, Caprica Six and Boomer/Sharon would not have started the group on a newer course, and Athena/Sharon Agathon would not wear a Colonial Uniform.

    The "Dark Haired Six" may have been a "limited edition six" where all of that batch of model six were cooked up with darker hair than the previous batches. Or, she may, as an individual, chosen to darken her hair so as to appear somewhat "individual" among her peers.

    The writers may have been making it plain that the Six Baltar killed was unrelated to any other Six we've seen before. Since she's the first dark Six we've seen, it is very clear she isn't Caprica Six, or any other Six Baltar ever saw. Doesn't matter. Hair color can change within the hour with a little Lady Clairol; perhaps in the BSG universe, it is "Lady Calpurnia" or some such.
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  • Avatar of swampape

    swampape

    [54]Nov 6, 2006
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    The hybrid (the one in the soup that controlled the base ship) was unfamiliar. Since she was a human form, and not one of the seven models we know, would she be an eighth model? From the credits, the hyrid was a different actress but if you think she was supposed to be an existing model, please let me know.
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  • Avatar of Durbola

    Durbola

    [55]Nov 6, 2006
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    I don't beleive that the hybrid is another model of the Cylon "skin-jobs" because during the most recent episode when the hybird objected to the jump the others chimed in that she didn't receive a vote.  If we are still working on the assumption that all twelve models participate in the decision process then this would exclude the hybrid, from the twelve models,  although this assumption could be put into question by the appearance of only seven model thus far (those involved in the government of New Caprica).  Baltar also questions this during the episode wondering why he had only seen seven models despite twelve existing, thus maybe not all the Cylons participate equally in the distribution of power and the others, such as the hybrid, are part of twelve models but belong to an apolitical caste.  However, I believe my first statement about the hybrid is correct.  
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  • Avatar of Writer2000

    Writer2000

    [56]Nov 6, 2006
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    I have now watched the episode Torn three times and I have these observations to make.

    1) I don't know why, but my favorite moment of the espisode is when Roslin said the line about going "lion hunting" to Adama. I really liked Mary McDonnell's delivery of the line. I also really wish that Roslin had been featured more in this episode.

    2) I really liked the scene where Starbuck cuts her hair. It wasone of my most favorite scenes from the entire episode.

    3) I loved the score for the epsiode. I've always enjoyed the music for the show, but I thought that Bear McCeary did a very good job of composing the music for this episode. This episode definitely has one of the best scores ever for a BSG episode.

    4) Jeez! Apollo got skinny fast! That has got to be a record for weight loss, even on a TV show. I am glad that we didn't have to watch Apollo go through a long drawn out process of losing all of the wight that he put on though.

    5) I know that Tigh has been through a really difficult time lately, but honestly I've never liked him, and I just want him gone for good. Hopefully that's exactly what's going to happen.

    6) I don't think I've ever completely realized this before this episode, but the Cylon Number Six is a lot meaner to Baltar then the Number Six in his visions. This is only my opinion though.

    7) I have one last comment to make, but it's more of a question than an observation. Is Athena Sharon's call sign now? I had a really hard time following the scene where everyone was trying to choose a call sign for Sharon, so I'm not sure. Can anyone help me with this?

    All in all, this was a great episode, and I can't wait for this Friday. The fact that the writers really like constantly ending episodes with a cliff hanger really annoys me when I'm watching the episode as a live airing versus watching the episodes on DVD like I did seasons 1 & 2. As always, these are only my opinions, so take them for what you will.
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  • Avatar of swampape

    swampape

    [57]Nov 6, 2006
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    Durbola wrote:
    I don't beleive that the hybrid is another model of the Cylon "skin-jobs" because during the most recent episode when the hybird objected to the jump the others chimed in that she didn't receive a vote.  If we are still working on the assumption that all twelve models participate in the decision process then this would exclude the hybrid, from the twelve models,  although this assumption could be put into question by the appearance of only seven model thus far (those involved in the government of New Caprica).  Baltar also questions this during the episode wondering why he had only seen seven models despite twelve existing, thus maybe not all the Cylons participate equally in the distribution of power and the others, such as the hybrid, are part of twelve models but belong to an apolitical caste.  However, I believe my first statement about the hybrid is correct.  


    The hybrid had skin and resembled a person. Therefore, it is not the full metal Cylon so I assume it has to be a skin model Cylon. If it is a skin model Cylon, it either has to be one of the twelve or something they do not consider a true model (maybe the lost 13th model?). We know that they said that one of the models would be "retired" during this season so perhaps when a model is retired, it is made a hyrid? Just a guess.
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [58]Nov 6, 2006
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    Athena is Sharon's call sign but it also seems to be much more. Minor spoiler from next week's episode follows:



    When one of the recon team members addresses her as Sharon, someone immediately corrects the speaker and says "Athena!" The new name is a way of differentiating herself from not only the original Boomer but also from Cylons in general. I think we may never hear her called Sharon again.


    END SPOILER
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  • Avatar of 123home123

    123home123

    [59]Nov 6, 2006
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    I don't think the Hybrid is a Cylon. I think she is exactly what the name implies: she is part human and part machine. If she were a Cylon, she wouldn't need to be connected to the baseship's systems with all those tubes and wires. We've seen in resurrection scenes that regular Cylon models don't need to be physically connected with the main control and information systems.
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  • Avatar of DarqAli

    DarqAli

    [60]Nov 6, 2006
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    The Hybrid is the Brain of the Basestar. In essence, she IS the Basestar, its heart and center, its brain and soul. Cylon ships are living. The Basestar is far less animal than, say the light Raider Starbuck captured.

    Her depiction is very similar to the Brain Ships of Anne McCaffrey's stories, as, "The Ship Who Sang". In them, a damaged or born deformed human, with a sound brain, was built into the bulkhead of a space ship, and her brain controlled the ship. In those stories, the "brain" could not be seen; we got to see the creature in her vat of goo.

    It may be that a cylon skin job is adapted to the role of hybrid, we don't know. But she is the ship, not an independant model, for as we were told, though she expressed her opinion about their decision to allow the others to die, she did not get a vote.
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