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How was Kara harbinger of death?? Spoilers possible?

  • Avatar of Daxx00004

    Daxx00004

    [21]Mar 21, 2009
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    The part about the head people being messengers of God certainly did not come out of nowhere. Didn't head six once claim to be an angel of God? Didn't she say over and over to Gaius that she knew what God wanted Gaius to do? She supplied him with information he did not have on his own, repeatedly. Head Baltar lead Caprica to change the plan of the cylons to work with the humans, before Cavil usurped control of the cylons.
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    BHSWorkstation

    [22]Mar 21, 2009
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    I think the answer is simple and has been obvious for some time. I am with those who state that she led the human race to it's end by A) leading them to "Earth" where they B) interbred and are no longer "human." "We" are now human-Cylon-protohuman hybrids. It has been very clear to me since at least "The Farm" that the series was headed in this direction. In fact, I don't think they could have ended it any other way.

    As for it being a cop-out, I don't agree. I am certainly not religious and like the mysticism in the show to be implied rather than realistic. That said, the set up for this "revelation" was given long ago. It fit perfectly with what they established in the show. It was far from a last-minute fix to explain a plot hole (though there have been a number of those - the whole Final Five plot was completely unnecessary and detrimental to the arc of the show).

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    ShotgunBlade

    [23]Mar 21, 2009
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    wingsabre wrote:
    With God/s themes prior in the series it does provide ample prof into explaining the different questions present in the past. Why was Anders saved by Boomer and Caprica Six? It was a vision from Head Baltar. How did Baltar gain such prominence in the fleet? It was Head Six. Both of which acted on a mental capacity, and a physical capacity. If you think God is such a bad answer, and is so poor in writing then why don't you provide a better answer? Why did Kara come back to life? How did Kara come back to life? Do you really want them to dive into all the techno babble? The series is about the characters, and they spent time on them, not a full hour on techno babble explaining it with their made up physics and science of why Kara came back to life. Look at the whole mutiny arch, where the Cylons was able to unjam the Galactia signal, and have Laura communicate to the fleet. How did they explain that? It was a flashing black box. Do we need explanations on how it worked, or why it was flashing? No, becuase it wouldn't have contributed to the plot.

    The problem with you justifying the prior God themes as the head gauis/six visions is that head six and head gaius were not known to be angels back then, you're basically just retroactively applying the knowledge that they were angels as justification of prior warning that God themes would be used as explanations - you can't really do that. Can I provide a better answer? Sure, in fact I have seen several online, and the writers could have easily come up with ones even better and more suitable than those. I would rather sit through an ending that detailed, technologically if necessary, the mystery behind the return of Kara (the resurrection ship the final 5 left behind? bad idea maybe, but better than "god did it"), the head gaius/six visions (time travellers with selective cloaking technology? perhaps all humans were in fact descended from cylons and there were remnants of cylon technology in Gaius/Caprica, enough to evoke the visions? again, bad idea maybe, bad idea maybe, but better than "god did it"), the significance of Hera (something in her DNA that allowed cylon/cylon interbreeding and the continuation of their race? something that actually made her character SIGNIFICANT relevant to the series), etc. Any of these things, that I as someone who is not a writer came up with off the top of my head, would have been more plausible than "'God' did it/agents of 'God'". As for the mutiny arch, Gaius was using some type of radio technology that was so low key/old/on a different frequency that jamming technology aimed against the usual Battlestar frequencies were unaffected. I thought that was implied or explained well enough, but in either case, that was not exactly the ENDING TO THE SERIES to need a fleshed out explanation.

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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [24]Mar 21, 2009
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    I don't think those solutions are better. Time travel? Really? When in the series did they do time travel? When in the series did they even delve into star trek level sci-fi? Everything you described as an alternate ending was not just a bad alternative, it works against the whole sprite of the series. Plus, it leaves one huge plot hole. How did the viper come back, and how did Kara resurrect if she's not a Cylon? Resurrection is not a possibility. The whole God explanation was the most fitting. This series as a whole never spent forever to explain techno babble. It distracts from the whole plot of the series. Plus, just like Daxx00004 said, Head Six did already tell Baltar numerous times that she was an Angel from God. No one took it seriously but it turns out that she wasn't bluffing. Face it, they set it up, and you're just angry that you didn't see it coming. A lot of people simply don't like the ending because they expected more, they over hyped it, thinking they'll get an orgasm watching it, and when that didn't happen they whined about it. The ending was satisfactory, and tied the loose ends up.
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    ShotgunBlade

    [25]Mar 21, 2009
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    wingsabre wrote:
    I don't think those solutions are better. Time travel? Really? When in the series did they do time travel? When in the series did they even delve into star trek level sci-fi? Everything you described as an alternate ending was not just a bad alternative, it works against the whole sprite of the series. Plus, it leaves one huge plot hole. How did the viper come back, and how did Kara resurrect if she's not a Cylon? Resurrection is not a possibility. The whole God explanation was the most fitting. This series as a whole never spent forever to explain techno babble. It distracts from the whole plot of the series. Plus, just like Daxx00004 said, Head Six did already tell Baltar numerous times that she was an Angel from God. No one took it seriously but it turns out that she wasn't bluffing. Face it, they set it up, and you're just angry that you didn't see it coming. A lot of people simply don't like the ending because they expected more, they over hyped it, thinking they'll get an orgasm watching it, and when that didn't happen they whined about it. The ending was satisfactory, and tied the loose ends up.

    I think you are failing to realize how terrible of a corner a show has boxed itself into if "God did it" becomes the best explanation - because "God did it" is essentially the absence of an explanation. Time travel is preferable over deus ex machina like "God did it", yes. The level of sci-fi is irrelevant if the manner of explanation is superior to the one that was used by the show. The spirit of the show has been good writing, solid characters with logical but compelling motivations, and excellent plot. "God did it" is NONE of these things - it went against the very spirit of the show. As for Kara coming back, Moore could easily have used what was common theory that her father was Daniel, the 7th cylon, making her half human, half cylon and therefore (potentially) eligible for resurrection. Again, these are potential threads the writers could have easily chosen to pursue and develop, the point is not the specifics of what I wrote, simply that there were clearly better alternatives to "ok uh....God did it". That's more distracting to the plot of a series than anything else. Indeed, noone took what Head Six said seriously because Head Six, at that point, could easily have been playing mind games for all we knew. One offhand comment about being an angel of god hardly qualifies as a setup for explaining away all your loose ends by saying it was the work of a god. That sort of logic is simply...retarded. I think the problem is some of you like the show so much Ron Moore could have spoon fed you garbage (which is basically what he did) and you guys would still accept it as brilliant. Take this finale for what it was: a major let down.

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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [26]Mar 21, 2009
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    No that would have created more problems than it would solve. If Kara could potentially resurrect without a genetic matrix for her, than what's the significance of Hera. A time travel idea would be one of the worst alternative I've seen, since this series has never done that. It's based on a temporal constant, meaning all that has occurred before will occur again. If time travel was introduced then that would break that constant of the series. The explanation that God or some greater power resurrected her to allow her to for fill her destiny made perfect sense. It used a concept that seeps through the entirety of the series and made it appear again at the end.

    You wanted to be spoon fed some abstract pointless techno babble that's equal to God did it, but instead replace it with, wormhole or some other mind numbing dribble that goes no where and has nothing to do with the concept of the series. Did I like this series finale? Heck yeah, and I truly think it will get better with age. I didn't like the series finale of Stargate SG-1, or Star Trek the Next Generation, but as time passed I liked it much more since it was true to the spirit of the series. This in essence was true to the mythos and spirit of the series. Just becuase the ending was not what you expected it to be in your fan fiction, doesn't mean it's a bad ending.
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  • Avatar of ShotgunBlade

    ShotgunBlade

    [27]Mar 21, 2009
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    wingsabre wrote:
    No that would have created more problems than it would solve. If Kara could potentially resurrect without a genetic matrix for her, than what's the significance of Hera. A time travel idea would be one of the worst alternative I've seen, since this series has never done that. It's based on a temporal constant, meaning all that has occurred before will occur again. If time travel was introduced then that would break that constant of the series. The explanation that God or some greater power resurrected her to allow her to for fill her destiny made perfect sense. It used a concept that seeps through the entirety of the series and made it appear again at the end. You wanted to be spoon fed some abstract pointless techno babble that's equal to God did it, but instead replace it with, wormhole or some other mind numbing dribble that goes no where and has nothing to do with the concept of the series. Did I like this series finale? Heck yeah, and I truly think it will get better with age. I didn't like the series finale of Stargate SG-1, or Star Trek the Next Generation, but as time passed I liked it much more since it was true to the spirit of the series. This in essence was true to the mythos and spirit of the series. Just becuase the ending was not what you expected it to be in your fan fiction, doesn't mean it's a bad ending.

    I'm sorry, but what was the significance of Hera as the show stands now? There was none, the fact she was a half cylon, half human was ultimately meaningless. If she had died in the recovery plot the show could have proceeded as it did and ended up exactly in the same place - she had no significance, she was trumped up to be important like the final 5 but in the end really did nothing to move things forward. Time travel breaking the cycle of the series? Isn't that exactly what the characters were (in a futile way I might add) trying to do at the end of the series by scrapping technology anyway? Again, I hate going in circles here, but the explanation of 'God did it' never 'makes sense' in any context unless you've been backed into a corner and have no rational explanations, resorting to the irrational. None of the techno babble I mentioned was abstract or pointless, it would have answered many of the show's mysteries in a far more satisfaying way.

    The fact is, I did not go into the finale expecting anything - Moore had many, many options with the storyline and I wasn't about to try and guess one. My disappointment was not with the show's ending being what I expected, but with the show's ending being bad. 'God did it' was never the spirit of this series, and when people say stuff like that it only confirms the notion in my head that most of the people who liked the series finale never really understood the series to begin with.

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  • Avatar of wingsabre

    wingsabre

    [28]Mar 21, 2009
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    Hera both functions as a child of God's love, and a prophet, able to give Kara the notes for the music, and the coordinates to Earth in the Sol System. She would then serve as the base for the future of humanity, being half cylon and half human. Without her, humanity would not have found Earth. If they did not search for Hera, Starbucks would not have had to enter her jump coordinates. In no self respecting mind would Adama allow a blind jump to occur unless they had to, and that's exactly what happened.

    Just because you didn't get a scientific techno babble answer doesn't mean "God did it" was a bad answer. So what, we say, aliens did it? Is that really any better? Either way you look at it, all the answers point to something equal to God did it.

    So you want it to be a time travel answer? Sure that's such a great answer. Yet it doesn't explain the dead Kara, and the duplicate viper. The solution of some greater power at works from the Ether is perfectly sound.
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    ShotgunBlade

    [29]Mar 21, 2009
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    wingsabre wrote:
    Hera both functions as a child of God's love, and a prophet, able to give Kara the notes for the music, and the coordinates to Earth in the Sol System. She would then serve as the base for the future of humanity, being half cylon and half human. Without her, humanity would not have found Earth. If they did not search for Hera, Starbucks would not have had to enter her jump coordinates. In no self respecting mind would Adama allow a blind jump to occur unless they had to, and that's exactly what happened. Just because you didn't get a scientific techno babble answer doesn't mean "God did it" was a bad answer. So what, we say, aliens did it? Is that really any better? Either way you look at it, all the answers point to something equal to God did it. So you want it to be a time travel answer? Sure that's such a great answer. Yet it doesn't explain the dead Kara, and the duplicate viper. The solution of some greater power at works from the Ether is perfectly sound.

    Ok, I think you're a bit confused about some points I've been making. First, don't mix up "techno babble" with logic. None of what I proposed in my potential solutions (outside the time thing) involved any new technology not already introduced in the show. Second, the time travel device was suggested as a possible explanation for ONE small thing, the appearance of virtual six and virtual baltar. Nothing else. You seem to be returning to that element, I'm not sure why. While Hera's presence was ultimately important for driving the plot, you're missing the point that her character itself was not actually significant...Moore kept trying to trump her up and in doing so the characters of the show kept trying to trump her up but there was no actual explanation as for WHY. The fact that getting her was the catalyst for events to occur that led to them finding Earthdoes not make her solely important, just one big coincidental cog in the gears. Again, signs of poor writing. The dead Kara and duplicate viper I explained with things beside the time thing...you might want to re-read my post. The solution of "greater powers" was...well...a terrible one. It was the epitome of the absence of a solution despite the need for one. Nobody is asking for a scientific explanation so much as a reasonable one, and 'god did it' is not reasonable. It's a silly, weak plot device.

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    Daxx00004

    [30]Mar 21, 2009
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    ShotgunBlade wrote:

    wingsabre wrote:
    No that would have created more problems than it would solve. If Kara could potentially resurrect without a genetic matrix for her, than what's the significance of Hera. A time travel idea would be one of the worst alternative I've seen, since this series has never done that. It's based on a temporal constant, meaning all that has occurred before will occur again. If time travel was introduced then that would break that constant of the series. The explanation that God or some greater power resurrected her to allow her to for fill her destiny made perfect sense. It used a concept that seeps through the entirety of the series and made it appear again at the end. You wanted to be spoon fed some abstract pointless techno babble that's equal to God did it, but instead replace it with, wormhole or some other mind numbing dribble that goes no where and has nothing to do with the concept of the series. Did I like this series finale? Heck yeah, and I truly think it will get better with age. I didn't like the series finale of Stargate SG-1, or Star Trek the Next Generation, but as time passed I liked it much more since it was true to the spirit of the series. This in essence was true to the mythos and spirit of the series. Just becuase the ending was not what you expected it to be in your fan fiction, doesn't mean it's a bad ending.

    I'm sorry, but what was the significance of Hera as the show stands now? There was none, the fact she was a half cylon, half human was ultimately meaningless. If she had died in the recovery plot the show could have proceeded as it did and ended up exactly in the same place - she had no significance, she was trumped up to be important like the final 5 but in the end really did nothing to move things forward. Time travel breaking the cycle of the series? Isn't that exactly what the characters were (in a futile way I might add) trying to do at the end of the series by scrapping technology anyway? Again, I hate going in circles here, but the explanation of 'God did it' never 'makes sense' in any context unless you've been backed into a corner and have no rational explanations, resorting to the irrational. None of the techno babble I mentioned was abstract or pointless, it would have answered many of the show's mysteries in a far more satisfaying way.

    The fact is, I did not go into the finale expecting anything - Moore had many, many options with the storyline and I wasn't about to try and guess one. My disappointment was not with the show's ending being what I expected, but with the show's ending being bad. 'God did it' was never the spirit of this series, and when people say stuff like that it only confirms the notion in my head that most of the people who liked the series finale never really understood the series to begin with.


    Would it make you feel better if he had shown a vast ship of light and said they did it? Is it just that you do not like the religious/Spiritual aspects of the show? Just pretend that God, who doesn't like that name, is an omnipotent, advanced, ancient Alien and enjoy the show.
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    ShotgunBlade

    [31]Mar 21, 2009
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    Daxx00004 wrote:
    Would it make you feel better if he had shown a vast ship of light and said they did it? Is it just that you do not like the religious/Spiritual aspects of the show? Just pretend that God, who doesn't like that name, is an omnipotent, advanced, ancient Alien and enjoy the show.

    Here's the rub: it isn't that he used God, necessarily, but that he used the "mystical higher power that can do all manners of irrational things". That's overstepping the boundaries of the suspension of disbelief science fiction allows and crosses over into "desire for a quick fix to unexplanable plot threads".

    One of the reasons I really, really dislike the finale is that none of these plot threads were unexplainable - Moore and his writers clearly had the ability to wrap them up nicely. They simply chose not to in some strange attempt to be 'edgy' or 'different', which is for many reasons, frustrating.

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    wingsabre

    [32]Mar 21, 2009
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    This is sci-fi. "techno babble" = "logic"

    Think about it, does the jump drive make sense? What's the physics involved? Any explanation given to it is all logical, but it's still techno babble. Time travel is another plot device, just like God, and that in itself does not make time travel a better answer than others. In life, not everything is explained, and so should this series. Look at other Sci-fi shows. Not every thing is explained at the end, and some aspects are left open because explaining it would take away from the spirit of the show. Did they ever explain if Sisko will return in DS9? No. Did they every explain what will happen to humans after they took the promiacine shots in 4400? No. The music in the series is like 42, it was something pulled from the ether and repeats itself over time. Do whatever you want, but I think it's respectable that RDM didn't dumb it down to the point to have flashy magical being show up and explain everything. Not only would that be so cheesy but it would ruin the series as a whole. This ending was good and satisfactory, minus the few douche who complain that it didn't ended the way THEY wanted it to end, or the answer was more spiritual instead of a purely made up "scientific" answer.
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    ShotgunBlade

    [33]Mar 21, 2009
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    So now you're basically saying it's ok to not explain things but half-ass explain them with deus ex machinaes because things sometimes aren't explained in life? Even though it's a show which had a scheduled ending and therefore should have easily resolved its plots logically? Nice.
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    wingsabre

    [34]Mar 21, 2009
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    Some plots are intended to be left open, not because it would be too complicated to explain, and put in a nice little box with a bow on top. A scheduled ending does not mean that everything has to end completely, or spoon fed a completely techno babble answer for the sake of people who can't put the pieces together. Is god a deus ex machinaes? Not when they've been incorporating the different spiritual aspects of god into the show since the beginning. They gave an answer that was completely in the spirit of the show. It's a universe that things have all happened before and will happen again, and the mystical entities in that universe have been observant since the start.
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    ShotgunBlade

    [35]Mar 21, 2009
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    First, the issue is not that these plot threads were unresolved. It's that they were resolved with an incredibly weak plot device.

    Second, this techno-babble you keep mentioning is what this show's plot revolved around and was based on for its entire run prior to this finale. I'm not sure why you say "techno-babble" as if it is some fault, or inferior to a solution involving "God did it".

    Again, the more I see people defend this series finale, the more I can't help but think they had no idea what the series was really about prior to it. Deus ex machina, especially on the level of "insert higher power responsible for all this plot", have never been in the spirit of the show.
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    wingsabre

    [36]Mar 21, 2009
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    Ok, if you know what this series is about, what is the main theme? What is it about? They have always dealt with a mystical power from the beginning, they never did it heavy handily, and they didn't directly say it in the end. So now that they're talking about God, with a capital G instead of god with a lower case g, and all of a sudden it's a weak plot device? They've done it before, and they did it again to explain this. Live with it.
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    ShotgunBlade

    [37]Mar 21, 2009
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    Um...what is your justification for saying "they've always dealt with mystical powers"? Outside of some strange dreams/visions that most of us expected to be explained in the finale with something other than god, these elements were never prominent in the show.
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    MetaLuna

    [38]Mar 21, 2009
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    Wait, wait, wait. Are we now trying to argue that God ISN'T sci-fi?
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    ShotgunBlade

    [39]Mar 21, 2009
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    You really want to make the argument that God is some part of SCIENCE fiction?
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    MetaLuna

    [40]Mar 21, 2009
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    ShotgunBlade wrote:
    You really want to make the argument that God is some part of SCIENCE fiction?


    Come on. If God isn't the stuff of sci-fi, what is?

    I'm just pointing out that your entire argument here is that God has absolutely no place in sci-fi shows, and you're disappointed in this finale because of the reference to God. But there are no specific religious themes in this show - just the idea of "God". You're confusing Christianity with what they just said. They may have been using the term "God", but for all you know, that refers to what someone further back said - some alien lifeform that likes to dick around with others for entertainment.

    Like I said, what's NOT sci-fi about God?
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