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How was Kara harbinger of death?? Spoilers possible?

  • Avatar of ShotgunBlade

    ShotgunBlade

    [41]Mar 21, 2009
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    Again, it has nothing to do with "god" or "God" or religion specifically, it was the use of a weak plot device in the form of a higher power with mystical powers with seemingly no boundaries. That's all it was in the end - a weak plot device.
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  • Avatar of MetaLuna

    MetaLuna

    [42]Mar 21, 2009
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    ShotgunBlade wrote:
    Again, it has nothing to do with "god" or "God" or religion specifically, it was the use of a weak plot device in the form of a higher power with mystical powers with seemingly no boundaries. That's all it was in the end - a weak plot device.


    I guess you can go watch the original. Or better yet, Star Trek. Yeah, that show is FILLED with mighty, powerful plot devices.
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    pumpkinhead2

    [43]Mar 21, 2009
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    MetaLuna wrote:
    ShotgunBlade wrote:
    Again, it has nothing to do with "god" or "God" or religion specifically, it was the use of a weak plot device in the form of a higher power with mystical powers with seemingly no boundaries. That's all it was in the end - a weak plot device.
    I guess you can go watch the original. Or better yet, Star Trek. Yeah, that show is FILLED with mighty, powerful plot devices.
    Plot devices? That is the whole problem ... they weren't plot devices. They were just random stuff thrown in at the time because they sounded good. Unfortunately when it come to resolving these plot devices all they could think of was "God did it".

    I would almost prefer some Star Trek style technobabble then some quasi-mystical BS.

    If Moore had managed to tie up all the loose ends in an "Agatha Christie" style ending he would have been lauded as a genius and everyone would have been happy ... but to end it as he has is just a cop out.

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    PickANameAnyOne

    [44]Mar 22, 2009
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    I basically agree with everything ShotgunBlade has said so far.

    I don't need "techno-babble" - but a logical explanation of a few points would be a welcome relief.

    Why did the song "turn on" 4 of the final 5 cylons when it did? Who/what triggered the song? Why was it triggered then and there? Was that also "God"? Who built the temple near the super-nova and what was its purpose? Why did Kara have visions of the temple/drawings of the temple since she was a child?

    I don't need to know how the temple worked or how the song worked or how Kara was transported across space and revived good-as-new and so was her ship.. Forget the "how" (the "technobabble"). But please do include the who and the why these events occurred. That's what the writers left out at the end - the who did stuff and/or why they did that stuff. Feel free to leave out the how - but if you don't include the who or the why, it feels empty. Like now.

    I think the ending was very nice in saying what happened to all the characters we cared about - but very weak in explaining many of the events of the series as a whole.

    Edited on 03/21/2009 11:51pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of ballack08

    ballack08

    [45]Mar 22, 2009
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    ShotgunBlade wrote:

    wingsabre wrote:
    No that would have created more problems than it would solve. If Kara could potentially resurrect without a genetic matrix for her, than what's the significance of Hera. A time travel idea would be one of the worst alternative I've seen, since this series has never done that. It's based on a temporal constant, meaning all that has occurred before will occur again. If time travel was introduced then that would break that constant of the series. The explanation that God or some greater power resurrected her to allow her to for fill her destiny made perfect sense. It used a concept that seeps through the entirety of the series and made it appear again at the end. You wanted to be spoon fed some abstract pointless techno babble that's equal to God did it, but instead replace it with, wormhole or some other mind numbing dribble that goes no where and has nothing to do with the concept of the series. Did I like this series finale? Heck yeah, and I truly think it will get better with age. I didn't like the series finale of Stargate SG-1, or Star Trek the Next Generation, but as time passed I liked it much more since it was true to the spirit of the series. This in essence was true to the mythos and spirit of the series. Just becuase the ending was not what you expected it to be in your fan fiction, doesn't mean it's a bad ending.

    I'm sorry, but what was the significance of Hera as the show stands now? There was none, the fact she was a half cylon, half human was ultimately meaningless. If she had died in the recovery plot the show could have proceeded as it did and ended up exactly in the same place - she had no significance, she was trumped up to be important like the final 5 but in the end really did nothing to move things forward. Time travel breaking the cycle of the series? Isn't that exactly what the characters were (in a futile way I might add) trying to do at the end of the series by scrapping technology anyway? Again, I hate going in circles here, but the explanation of 'God did it' never 'makes sense' in any context unless you've been backed into a corner and have no rational explanations, resorting to the irrational. None of the techno babble I mentioned was abstract or pointless, it would have answered many of the show's mysteries in a far more satisfaying way.

    The fact is, I did not go into the finale expecting anything - Moore had many, many options with the storyline and I wasn't about to try and guess one. My disappointment was not with the show's ending being what I expected, but with the show's ending being bad. 'God did it' was never the spirit of this series, and when people say stuff like that it only confirms the notion in my head that most of the people who liked the series finale never really understood the series to begin with.



    Hera was significant because the characters on the show GAVE her significance. As the first human/cylon hybrid she was seen as a symbol of HOPE for peace.
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  • Avatar of Omnia87

    Omnia87

    [47]Mar 23, 2009
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    ibnuts wrote:
    It was a great ending and everything makes sense if you're the type of person that can think for yourself and don't need to be spoonfed everything. Unfortunately, smallminded people with a very limited knowledge of the "science" feel everything must be explained by "logic." I'm sorry, but this series has never been about Vulcan logic crap, it's been about characters and emotion. God/god has been set up to be an answer behind everything occurring on this show for quite some time. If you want to believe that the writers "copped out" simply because you have some personal aversion to spirituality/religion, that's your own choice, but just admit to everyone that it's your own personal bias showing.
    I feel I should let you know that I reported your reply as abuse. I'm not sure anything will be done with this, but what you're saying right now is a clear insult to my (and the rest of the people not impressed with the finale's) intellect. The arrogance in your assumption that those who didn't think it made any sense are smallminded and can't think for themselves is unprecedented on this board. EVERYTHING MAKES SENSE!?!??! Then please explain all the open questions people have posted all over this forum without invoking the deus ex machina answer that is God. Surely you wouldn't be fine if every mystery novel ended without telling you about the mystery, but instead calling upon a higher power? If every movie ends with: GOD DID IT!! You'd be ok with that? Do you watch Lost? Would it be ok for Lost to end with God wanted it? Or Prison Break? Or Heroes? COME ON!!!!!
    Edited on 03/23/2009 2:53am
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  • Avatar of vandalaymusic

    vandalaymusic

    [48]Mar 23, 2009
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    Omnia87 wrote:
    /.../...If every movie ends with: GOD DID IT!! You'd be ok with that? Do you watch Lost? Would it be ok for Lost to end with God wanted it? Or Prison Break? Or Heroes? COME ON!!!!!

    GOB did it?

    all kidding aside, after reading most of the comments here I feel for both sides. The ending left alot un-answered and open for personal interpretation, but on the other hand did go with the overall theme of the show...

    ...BUT the episode felt extremely rushed and key scenes did not get enough attention (ex Cavils suicide, Baltars&six cry scene, Starbuck revelation of notes etc) when on the other hand they dragged out some non-BIG-plot scenes.

    I have no theories, no clever ideas or answers, I can just sit back and realize that a GREAT show had an ok ending. Regarding Lost Im already deadset on that we┬┤ll be left with an extremely unsatisfying ending. But thats for another day.

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  • Avatar of ssa2204

    ssa2204

    [49]Mar 23, 2009
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    The end felt rushed and horribly incomplete. For me, this whole ending seemed like something written at the last minute. You know that college essay written at 2am the night before? Well that was it.

    In a way it is if they became over ambitious, then when it came time to end the story they were dumbstruck at what to do. Many of the storylines, especially the whole Opera house angle seems now as if it was thrown in sounding like a good idea, but they had no real clue on where to take it. For me it was the end of season 2 when the show started going down hill, but I continued to watch if for no other reason than I wanted to see a conclusion.

    People can speculate and suggest all they want about such storylines as Kara, but what can not be ingored is the writers simply did NOT do their job. The popular counter argument is always for someone to say "Well do you need these spoonfed?". Well not exactly, but a proper conculsion is required. Otherwise, why have a finale at all? We could just speculate the ending ourselves right? Why not just start selling all books without the final chapter while your at it, see how well that goes down. No the ending does not need to be spoonfed to us, but at the same time any storyline should have a proper conclusion. It is not the job of the viewer to do that.

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  • Avatar of guyroy1971

    guyroy1971

    [50]Mar 23, 2009
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    Just because an ending is amibiguous doesn't make it bad. Many stories, movies and television shows have had amiguous endings. Heck, No County for Old Men won an oscar, and when it was over I said "what the heck?" lol The ending to the "Matrix" was pretty ambiguous as to what Neo really was. I love the author Christopher Priest and read Inverted World (an excellent hard sci-fi book) and the Prestige and they were both pretty ambiguous in the end. I don't think people providing their own explanations to an amibiguous ending is "covering for the writer's weaknesses" in fact making up your own take on what happened is exactly why ambiguous endings are fun! Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, every author or writer who had an ambiguous ending was just being lazy and insulting the viewers. If that's your view, that's fine, but it is a time tested storty telling device. I really see the argument on these thread devolving into a tomatoe/tomatO (capilization intented to make the phonetic comparison obvious) argument. Some see the god explanation as a cop out/ others see a worm hole technological explanation as a cop out. It all devolves as to what the individual viewer likes. Some don't like religion, and therefore god being directly involved is a cop out. A religous ending was consistent in this universe, even if others don't think so, so I was ok with it.

    Hera was a symbol for everyone, and was vitally important to the cylons. Her being important to the cylons was reason enough to go get her.

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  • Avatar of guyroy1971

    guyroy1971

    [51]Mar 23, 2009
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    , and Ronald Moore has recently given interviews where he stated they thought long and hard about giving the firm answers some wanted, but in the end they didn't like them and intentionally left some of the answers (like Kara) to be ambiguous. Now, he may be lying and they really had no idea and punted the ending. (I have reviewed every episode on this site and stated when I thought the writers punted an issue, just reference the reviews that have thirteen or more thumbs down..lol) But since I have no evidence he is lying I will take them at their word that they felt this was the most compelling ending they felt they had and went with it.
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  • Avatar of Omnia87

    Omnia87

    [52]Mar 23, 2009
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    Ambiguous is nice, but this was far beyond that. It's nice when a story writer has a certain idea in his head, but doesn't explicitly state everything, instead he places bits and pieces througout the story that will allow people who try hard enough some insight into his true intent. With this story however it's not the case, there's no way you can make it work by yourself. It's clear from interviews and statements made in specials that Ron Moore was eventually fed up with trying to make the plot work (which he was incapable of doing) and instead focussed on the characters (which is why we have these odd meaningless flashbacks filling up airtime). Then later making statements like Kara Thrace is whatever we want her to be, etc. etc. It's clear he didn't know either, and if the writer doesn't have any idea, how the hell should I? Suddenly I, as a viewer, should start making up huge chunks of the story that were never mentioned in order to make it work for ME? If that's ambiguous writing I can do it myself, I'll just build up a lot of tension and mystery till some sort of intended climax and then leave it all up to everyone else to make it work.

    BTW, the Matrix had a sequel that explained exactly why Neo was the way he was. Except of course for the weird bit at the end of it where they f*ed up all the rules by having Neo have powers outside of the Matrix. But saying that the Matrix is open ended is like saying The Lord of the Rings was open ended because we don't know if Frodo will manage to destroy the ring at the end of The Fellowship.

    Edited on 03/23/2009 12:52pm
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    ebony_kunoichi

    [53]Mar 23, 2009
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    Omnia87 wrote:

    Ambiguous is nice, but this was far beyond that. It's nice when a story writer has a certain idea in his head, but doesn't explicitly state everything, instead he places bits and pieces througout the story that will allow people who try hard enough some insight into his true intent. With this story however it's not the case, there's no way you can make it work by yourself. It's clear from interviews and statements made in specials that Ron Moore was eventually fed up with trying to make the plot work (which he was incapable of doing) and instead focussed on the characters (which is why we have these odd meaningless flashbacks filling up airtime). Then later making statements like Kara Thrace is whatever we want her to be, etc. etc. It's clear he didn't know either, and if the writer doesn't have any idea, how the hell should I? Suddenly I, as a viewer, should start making up huge chunks of the story that were never mentioned in order to make it work for ME? If that's ambiguous writing I can do it myself, I'll just build up a lot of tension and mystery till some sort of intended climax and then leave it all up to everyone else to make it work.

    BTW, the Matrix had a sequel that explained exactly why Neo was the way he was. Except of course for the weird bit at the end of it where they f*ed up all the rules by having Neo have powers outside of the Matrix. But saying that the Matrix is open ended is like saying The Lord of the Rings was open ended because we don't know if Frodo will manage to destroy the ring at the end of The Fellowship.

    OMG, Amen to that. So say we all Omnia! There is a huge difference between a television series and a movie. Movies arent years and many episodes of mysteries and plot twist. Like i've said before. What about Daniel? Why even introduce another character, but it turns out it was meaningless? What was the point of even having another cylon model? for what, shock value? i get that kara was the harbinger, which means herald of death and the death was humanities end on a physical level and turning into something else.

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  • Avatar of garbage29

    garbage29

    [54]Mar 24, 2009
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    Ending was lame. Whatever happened to "all will be revealed"?

    There seems to be no consensus on why Hera's ultimate destiny was important - was her role to provide hope or did it have something to do with breeding?

    There seems no clear reason given about why the opera house episode was important. The modern re-enactment of the opera house episode clearly had no point.

    Kara was the harbinger of death. Again it is not really clear what this meant even after all was revealed. Death of the cylons? - nope its not clear that they all died, the rebel centurions certainly didnt. Death to the humans on the fleet - well it seems that they probably all end up dying of old age.

    Kara was an angel? That is a cop out. They clearly had no clue of how else to explain this away.

    The character work helped in winding down the series, but there were so many loose ends unanswered.

    About 5 episodes ago I came the the conclusion that the series was written in a such a way that it intentionally confused the viewers. The writers would give hints then at a later point do a 90 degree turn in the story just to "frak" with the minds of the viewers. Its like the writers made this stuff up on the fly. The conclusion of the series only reinforced my views - the ending was predictably unpredictable. I cant say I was satisfied with this ending.

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    ShotgunBlade

    [55]Mar 24, 2009
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    I honestly would have preferred they at least used the "beings of light" from the old battlestar galactica series rather than whimsical off-screen mystical characters hinted at being god.
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    MetaLuna

    [56]Mar 25, 2009
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    ShotgunBlade wrote:
    I honestly would have preferred they at least used the "beings of light" from the old battlestar galactica series rather than whimsical off-screen mystical characters hinted at being god.


    Out of curiosity, why does the idea of "God" offend you, while "beings of light" does not? Is it because you're making assumptions about the Christian definition of God and applying it to the show?

    Guys. Please. Look up the definition of the word "god". It doesn't mean what you think it does.
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    ShotgunBlade

    [57]Mar 25, 2009
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    I think you're confused. The beings of light were actual characters with ships and much more advanced technology that explained what they were capable of doing. That is significantly better than an off-screen deus ex machinae.
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    maywee

    [58]Mar 25, 2009
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    Kara thrace was the harbinger (a sign of things to come... she wrote the notes to all along the watchtower which in turn led them to our earth therefore foreshadowing the future). the death part refers to the fact that she's dead. and has been since her viper was crushed. the leading humanity to their end part means the end of their journey. hope that's helped people's confusion. =)
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    tguedry82

    [59]Mar 25, 2009
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    maywee wrote:
    Kara thrace was the harbinger (a sign of things to come... she wrote the notes to all along the watchtower which in turn led them to our earth therefore foreshadowing the future). the death part refers to the fact that she's dead. and has been since her viper was crushed. the leading humanity to their end part means the end of their journey. hope that's helped people's confusion. =)

    I think you are the first person to say what I think I'm thinking (yes, I'm still a bit torn so bare with me everyone!) After reading what alot of people thought and looking up the definition of harbinger, I agree with you maywee...The first part, about Kara being the harbinger of death had to do with the fact that she is dead. She got that message from the hybrid after she came back, so it makes complete sense for that to be all that was meant by "the harbinger of death" part. What I gathered, and some people agree that the "you will lead them all to their end" part had to do with her leading humanity to the end of what they had always known...to a union between Cylons and humans...to a civilization that was substantially less evolved (which gave Lee the idea to get rid of their technology and live as the natives live) So in that aspect she also lead them to the "end" of their technology. They got rid of their ships and equipment in hopes that they could become a civilization not dependant on machines as to not make the mistake of creating cylons that would rebel...That explanation sort of solves the issue for me as to why would everyone agree that this was a good idea to get rid of everything...their life might have been extremely hard without all that advancement but if they tried to live without it, they might not have a repeat of the horrible life they had to live up until this point. Again, that's solves the issue for me...I know alot of others will still see it as ridiculous to give up everything and do it the hard way.

    Back to Kara though...I will totally admit that the entire night after i watched the finale I was completely not happy with Starbucks conclusion. I just couldn't settle that she was just an Angel and that her and Lee couldn't be together. That was my biggest problem, cause I'm a big girl and I totally wanted them to finally be able to hook up! However, after someone said something about "her resurrection" I thought about something else. This probably won't go over with many people who didn't like the "God" tone to the ending, but now in my opinion, Kara wasn't suppose to be an Angel, she was suppose to be a sort of Jesus figure. If you look at the Biblical time line of Jesus, it kind of fits what happened to Kara. She died, she came back and was real...not just a head person. They could touch her, she drove vipers etc. etc... Once she finished leading them to Earth, she "ascended". I mean, it by no means follows the complete story of Jesus and she obviously didn't live a life like Christ did, but the occurrences fit for me after looking at them like that. I know it's super controversial because many don't believe that way, but it's just another way to fit it together.

    I took a look back at what the hybrid first said to Lt. Kendra Shaw (Razor) after all this, because I was like wait...he said something different that contradicts all this, but then I came up with a theory on that. He told Kendra "She is the herald of the apocalypse. The harbinger of death. They must not follow her". I think that had to do with when her ship blew up. Again, harbinger of death just meant, she would die and that was a sign of things to come. The "herald of the apocalypse" IMO was the sign of finding the ruined earth. "They must not follow her" for me, meant not to follow her to her death. Lee tried to save her, but she had to die (if we're looking at it from a Jesus POV) for all of this to come to pass...for her to see the way and show them the way.

    Sorry that was lengthy and will possibly start a whole new argument with the people who already had a problem with the God/spiritual ending theory. I have to agree with those that have said it has been present for a long time because it has. They've constantly mentioned God and gods, angels, prophecies and such. Remember the episode where Baltar proclaims he converted to believing in the One God, and several other episodes where he's basically "preaching". Within the 1st season, Kara prayed to the gods of Kobol for Leoben after they air locked him. I don't think all that was just for filler...it all lead to this finale. Was it perfect? I didn't think so...but it was great!

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    martymcflyjb

    [60]Mar 25, 2009
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    wingsabre wrote:
    Unlike others, most fans are given the respect to figure it out themselves. We don't need to be spoon fed the information. It doesn't have to be that transparent. Remember this is a televised medium, looking at the different artistic takes one can figure things out. We don't need the actors to stand there and state the obvious to us. It's quite cheap to state the obvious, we don't need that to waste our time. Cheap series like Star Trek Enterprise explained everything out, and treated fans like they're idiots. As time progressed, and after you've watched the series numerous times, you will be able to see that the ending was fitting. It made sense with what was done in the past, and was true to the characters. BSG was never a shoot them first, ask questions later series. It wasn't Star Wars, episode one, but instead a character driven series, and this ending fitted it.

    Well said!

    ShotgunBlade wrote:

    Lol, you're letting the writers play you like a cheap trick. It isn't good, or creative, or "in line with the series" to leave a plot end loose/poorly explained and then let ovely attached fans who will do anything to keep the show in a positive light in their eyes make up their own weak justifications for the ending. It's poor writing, and that's all it was. Nothing fit in the finale. The writers of this show could do an amazing job of juggling all these plots but the sad fact is, like most shows on television, there was no ending ever planned from the beginning - they backed themselves into a corner and had to make something up as they went along.

    Sounds to me like you are just trying to rationalize your distaste for the religious/mystical ambiguities. To each his own, but your are trying to make the subjective out to be screenwriting 101 or something. It's not deus ex machina if religion and God have been a part of the show since the miniseries. YES, there was mention of "angels" before the finale. Head Six pretty much flat out said she was sent from God. We knew Kara had a destiny from the very beginning, and that she was painting the eye of Jupiter as a child. THAT'S NOT SCIENCE. That's mystical. You should have seen it coming, that's all i'm saying.

    Time travel coming out of nowhere in the finale--THAT would be deus ex machina. This is not.

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