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Syfy (ended 2010)

How was Kara harbinger of death?? Spoilers possible?

  • Avatar of MetaLuna

    MetaLuna

    [61]Mar 26, 2009
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    martymcflyjb wrote:
    ShotgunBlade wrote:

    Lol, you're letting the writers play you like a cheap trick. It isn't good, or creative, or "in line with the series" to leave a plot end loose/poorly explained and then let ovely attached fans who will do anything to keep the show in a positive light in their eyes make up their own weak justifications for the ending. It's poor writing, and that's all it was. Nothing fit in the finale. The writers of this show could do an amazing job of juggling all these plots but the sad fact is, like most shows on television, there was no ending ever planned from the beginning - they backed themselves into a corner and had to make something up as they went along.

    Sounds to me like you are just trying to rationalize your distaste for the religious/mystical ambiguities. To each his own, but your are trying to make the subjective out to be screenwriting 101 or something. It's not deus ex machina if religion and God have been a part of the show since the miniseries. YES, there was mention of "angels" before the finale. Head Six pretty much flat out said she was sent from God. We knew Kara had a destiny from the very beginning, and that she was painting the eye of Jupiter as a child. THAT'S NOT SCIENCE. That's mystical. You should have seen it coming, that's all i'm saying.

    Time travel coming out of nowhere in the finale--THAT would be deus ex machina. This is not.

    Amen. I, for one, was not surprised at all by the ending, except pleasantly so that they resolved as much as they did. After so many series I love having unsatisfying finales (Quantum Leap, anyone?), I felt like this was a surprising turn. I felt a little let down about Kara, since I expected them to cement the idea of her as Daniel's son. Otherwise... it made sense to me. I'm agnostic, not religious in even the slightest, and have absolutely no qualms about pointing out a real Deus ex Machina when I see one. Remember? "The Stand"? Hand of God? THAT is a Deus ex Machina, people. This...? Not so much. This wasn't laziness on the part of writers who wrote themselves into a corner and couldn't figure a way out. It was following the natural progression of a story. If you want to argue that they cheated somehow in coming up with this ending, perhaps you should have disengaged yourself around season 3 when Kara died. Honestly, how did you think that would have been resolved?

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  • Avatar of ShotgunBlade

    ShotgunBlade

    [62]Mar 26, 2009
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    I think the vast majority of us who were paying attention during the course of the show can all agree that the "spiritual" aspects of the show were used in small doses here and there and left open-ended for later explanation, and not built up to as the "direction the show was headed in".
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  • Avatar of my1sunshine

    my1sunshine

    [63]Mar 31, 2009
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    Sorry... small doses? SMALL DOSES?

    I've been staying out of the debates since last weekend.. but you've been trying to force feed us your opinion about a zillion times over for a week now, to the point of one more thread being closed, and I'm sure this one is about to follow the way you're going here, so .. I need to ask one simple question .. for thoe of us, ahem.. not paying attention.

    Starting with the mimiseries (and that's six years ago, right? Okay.. just in case I wasn't paying attention), God has been mentioned or woven into the diolaugue of the Cylons, and in particular.. the Six series for six years.

    But let's lay the miniseries aside and go with the series.

    Almost every single episode for four straight seasons is SMALL doses?

    No disrespect or arrogance meant.. so please forgive me.. but I'm amazed by this.

    I've asked this question , and others have for a week now, and I have yet to hear a straight, or non-evasive answer yet, so I'll ask again..

    " How does a plot thread which has been woven, spoken, or referred to throughout almost every episode for the shows entire 4 year, or six year run, qualify as a sudden, out of the blue, unexpected Daus Ex Machina at the end, other then to not fulfill your expectations that it would all be revealed as something else, and not God?"

    Should the writers be held responsible for your expectations?

    Again, no offence, but it's because you seem like an intelligent person that I really don't understand this.

    Ron Moore never made a secret that he was making stuff up as he went along. As I've stated in another thread, there is always a general outline for directions they want the show to go, but it always depends on what the characters do, and the inevitable consequences of those actions, are what make up the story. The general, surrounding plotline always takes second place, and is sometimes altered, or disregarded completely, because what's transpired with the characters in the meantime, makes that plot outline impossible, or unlikely.

    It's because of the resulting realistic feel, and the way it's woven around that plotline, which makes the viewer feel as though there's a "greater plan" to the writing. But that doesn't mean their really is one, and Moore shouldn't be held responsible for that expectation. That's our decision to think that way. He never made his strategy a secret.

    Edited on 03/31/2009 7:14am
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  • Avatar of garbage29

    garbage29

    [64]Mar 31, 2009
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    my1sunshine wrote:

    It's because of the resulting realistic feel, and the way it's woven around that plotline, which makes the viewer feel as though there's a "greater plan" to the writing. But that doesn't mean their really is one, and Moore shouldn't be held responsible for that expectation. That's our decision to think that way. He never made his strategy a secret.



    I disagree strongly...I expect a plot, I expect good story telling, I expect that the conclusion to be consistent with rest of the story. It was his choice to make the plotline secondary to the haphazard writing style. Its his choice what characters did in previous episodes, and his inability to tie all of these loose ends can only be his responsibility. He built the expectations, and frankly it sounds like he hardly tried to make them all make scene.

    I really had expected a tragic end for the fleet. I could care less about the religions overtones. As far as I am concerned Mr Moore seems to have been more determined to finish the show with a battle scene and a happy ending rather than providing meaningful explanations. It might make a swell TV episode with all that excitement and drama, but many of us that were following the lore and nuances and were expecting "all to be revealed" feel cheated.
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  • Avatar of MetaLuna

    MetaLuna

    [65]Apr 2, 2009
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    Name a series with a perfectly satisfying finale. I'm struggling to think of one better than this.
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  • Avatar of boathouse

    boathouse

    [66]Apr 2, 2009
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    Just a couple things I'd like to point out. The whole angles thing was hardly last minute. The first time I recall Six saying explicitly that she was an angel was way back in Season 2, Home p2 I believe. So they've been setting it up at least since then.

    As for Hera's significance, well, she's the common ancestor of every human being on modern Earth. Is that significan't enough for you?

    As for the whole god thing, well, if you're going to make a choice to use an unexplainable higher power as a plot device then it's going to have to be somewhat unexplained. That's the point. How does one express the inexpressable? The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao, the name that can be named is not the eternal name, etc. It's a valid plot device, as there are questions that cannot be answered in this universe. There are things that we cannot fathom, and the writiers wanted to tap into that essential truth.

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  • Avatar of my1sunshine

    my1sunshine

    [67]Apr 7, 2009
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    garbage29 wrote:
    my1sunshine wrote:

    It's because of the resulting realistic feel, and the way it's woven around that plotline, which makes the viewer feel as though there's a "greater plan" to the writing. But that doesn't mean their really is one, and Moore shouldn't be held responsible for that expectation. That's our decision to think that way. He never made his strategy a secret.

    I disagree strongly...I expect a plot, I expect good story telling, I expect that the conclusion to be consistent with rest of the story. It was his choice to make the plotline secondary to the haphazard writing style. Its his choice what characters did in previous episodes, and his inability to tie all of these loose ends can only be his responsibility. He built the expectations, and frankly it sounds like he hardly tried to make them all make scene. I really had expected a tragic end for the fleet. I could care less about the religions overtones. As far as I am concerned Mr Moore seems to have been more determined to finish the show with a battle scene and a happy ending rather than providing meaningful explanations. It might make a swell TV episode with all that excitement and drama, but many of us that were following the lore and nuances and were expecting "all to be revealed" feel cheated.

    You didn't read a word I wrote, did you?

    I really can't fathom why, in a show.. particularly after THIS dark season.. which is strewn with so much tragedy, sadness and misery , fans are complaining about a happy ending.

    It's like saying, "I am so dissapointed the characters didn't get skinned alive, covered with salt, and boiled in oil.. screaming in agony, after watching their families suffer horribly for years on end. I hate this show now."

    ???

    Dude (or Dudette, lol).. I understand what your saying.. I really do. But that's not my point. The ending wasn't what I expected either. But Ron and Dave said over a year ago.. " Fans that think they know where we're going have NO clue how wrong they are. "

    In a few ways.. the ending made me go... Huh?

    But I don't hate the show for it. In re-watching it, I'm actually learning how much the ending fits in with the tone of the finale perfectly. I mean, perfectly. But, hey, maybe that's what they were aiming for. But that's just MY viewpoint.

    Oh, well.. it's all good. We're never gonna agree with each other, and that's fine. From now on, I'm gonna stick to the main discussion page for thread about the finale. these multiple threads going through the pros and cons are useless, IMHO, because we're trying to force each other's views on each other, myself included. I just thought I might get a direct, non evasive response for once.. but that's okay. Everybody's entitled. Peace.

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  • Avatar of jaredzusmc

    jaredzusmc

    [68]Apr 9, 2009
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    Agreeing with some and disagreeing with others, I think Kara was the "harbinger of death" literally because her role was both to bring the voyage to its end, and to bring death or the natural conclusion of Colonial existence to an end. In otherwords, while she was titled the harbinger of death, she technically could've had the title of an angel of birth or rebirth to a new people.

    My opinion.

    Edited on 04/09/2009 5:10pm
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  • Avatar of simonbuck

    simonbuck

    [69]Apr 10, 2009
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    Metaluna

    I think you getting slightly confused whith your God/Christianity theory

    All religions believe in God (in their own form) ie; Muslim Hindu Jehova etc, etc. Christianity or Christian is a faith that believes in Gods son "Christ" hence "Christians"
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  • Avatar of simonbuck

    simonbuck

    [70]Apr 10, 2009
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    Forgot to mention, Christ (Christianity) has only been around for 2010 years. Since the series finale was set about 150,000 years ago on Earth where does "Christianity" even come into it ?
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  • Avatar of myc4971

    myc4971

    [71]Apr 14, 2009
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    hh

    simonbuck wrote:
    Forgot to mention, Christ (Christianity) has only been around for 2010 years. Since the series finale was set about 150,000 years ago on Earth where does "Christianity" even come into it ?

    Uh... duh! do you know the bible started with the OLD TESTAMENT which is thousand of years before Christ was even born. The belief of ONE God has been in existence even before Christianity started with the death of Jesus.

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  • Avatar of ikhea

    ikhea

    [72]Apr 29, 2009
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    (hi there ! it's my first post here, so please be gentle, and forgive my approximative english)

    On the "harbringer of death" topic : I think that title fits Kara, because by leading the flet to the new earth, she lead both humans and cylons to their end. We learnt in the last scene that Hera was the common ancestor, the mother, of all people on earth ; imho, that means that there are no cylons nor humans anymore, just this new race, the descendants of Hera (that explains the importance given to her in the prophecies and stuff).

    It's an end that was needed for a new beginning...

    On the religion topic : (maybe here is not the best place, but since it's been adressed in this topic, I'll give my two pences) since I'm something between an atheist and an agnostic, the whole "God did it" answer bothers me a little, but I guess it's because I don't really believe in that kind of stuff. But I saw it coming, with all the references and discussions about religion throughout the show, and I think it fits the scenarii well.

    If you take into account the logic and evolution of the show, this ending fits. It's not what I would have love to see, but it makes sense. So yeah, I'm a little disappointed, because I can't relate to that kind of answer, but I still understand it. In fact, what frustrated me the most was Kara disappearing, my girly heart wanted her and Lee to finally end up together (but maybe that was too much of a happy ending).

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  • Avatar of Jerzeestyle

    Jerzeestyle

    [73]Apr 11, 2010
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    I just watched the entire BSG Saga within a month. WOW and thank you Netflix. Here we go... I agree with Shotgunblade and Wingsabre. I think this is a case of creativity versus reality. The fact of the matter is, is that the whole idea of "God did it" was a cop-out to a great show. Something better could have been drawn up and worked into the ending to have a fulfilling farewell, but based on the theme of the show it does fit. The writers have been working religion, divinity, and pure happenstance throughout the entire 4 seasons, it was only right for them to use the God move, albeit lackluster.

    Now I say creativity vs reality because its nice to have a show that doesn't spell everything out for you and you have the opportunity to use your own interpretation/imagination especially in regards to Kara... on the other hand, I do look at this show(as well as other shows)with a sense of realism. Moore and staff probably had all sorts of visions for BSG with specific beginnings and endings... but the reality is you can only write from season to season. In other words, you kinda have to leave stuff with a certain amount of ambiguity in hopes you come back for another run. I believe that once the network puts the KO sign in the air, that's it. The finale had answers, but didn't answer everything and I tend not to subscribe to cornering or lazy writing. Think about it... with the exception on season 3, the rest of the saga had impeccable writing. Then they just up and choose to make a complete u-turn to give the proverbial shaft to followers in the finale? Don't think so.. I want to think positively with the notion that they got canned(if you can call that positive...lol!).

    Time travel or The Ancients coming to save the day from an alternate wormhole from Atlantis in my opinion are bigger cop-outs that don't really explain things as in the long run. The Daniel cylon is a great angle, but again that would need time to be sketched out in another season perhaps... All this to say that from my viewpoint, you two have plausible arguments and it was cool to see so many people with abstract ideas.
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  • Avatar of dragon755

    dragon755

    [74]Jan 16, 2011
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    I realise im 2 years too late here BUT>>>:



    Wasn't it Baltar who said; "we've all seen something unexaplainable. Something we don't understand."...


    A clue for the finale prehaps? Who knows?!!!



    Personally i dont give a f that it didnt fit right. how many shows end the way you'd want them to? how many plotlines are resolved perfectly or in a satisfying way? There is always someone (/s in this case) who isn't happy with this or that and wants everything explained and spoonfed to them. Just like there is always someone who wants to have an open ending to figure out and imagine what they want. I'm not religious in anyway but i found that it all fit with the general story of the entire series and i personally loved it. There was no answer to be had, whether the writers had one or not...



    On the religious aspect... Battlestar Galatica (both old and new series) is based (albeit loosely) on the Morman ideals (12 tribes??)...just putting it out there who didn't expect it to end with 'God did it'?



    Either way, it's sad to see people battling it out over a shows ending (and i could name at least 10 series finales that this happens) when instead we should just be happy with our opinions and agree to disagree...



    that said... WTF!!! This whole series was about one God's temper-tantrum about not being the one true god!!!???

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    somesortaguy

    [75]Nov 10, 2012
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    Just watched BSG finally and obviously this thread is old.. but just wanted to say that it is hilarious that someone mentioned Lost as something they hoped wouldn't be explained (or not) away with something God-related..... you called it!
    That said.. they're both fun and enjoyable shows despite their questionable endings.
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