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The Question No One Even Thinks To Ask...

  • Avatar of Carl_Barrass

    Carl_Barrass

    [1]Mar 5, 2009
    • member since: 08/14/06
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    Everybody here is so caught up in the revelations of recent episodes that they've missed.

    BSG is no longer letting "mystiscism" be an anwser. Thats what shocked everyone with the reveal about the history of the final 5 really. We where all expecting a few mystic anwser that we had to take on religous fasith, instead it was for the first time in BSG's history pure hard science anwsers. And that throws the question your all not asking:

    How do two diffrent models of hybrids, neithier of which is supposed to have had any contact, know at least smthing about kara. The old Mystic explanation dosen't fly anymore. they know and theirs a sane logical scientific anwser to it all.

    Short vershion, whoever or whatever was/is responsible for Kara and her destiny has some kind of contact or connection with the hybrids.

    Other things that i think need mentioning:

    1. The hybrids are supposed to be incable of disobeying commands "they don't get a vote", yet in the Hub one does just that. So much else was going on we never realy asked too strongly about it. But in linght of cavil's littile mutiny all those years ago we now have a new light to look at it in. Simply put the skinjobs never had anything to do with the hybrids in the first place. I suspect their just finial 5 enchanced vershions of what the centurions had allready developed, or possibbly the work of this number 7.

    2. In light of recent revelations cavils insistance that their is nothing to understand in the hybrid's mutterings become highly suspicious. Given how littile they know about them, even the 5, it's quite possibble he was never able to erase their memories meaning the hybrids know exactly what cavil did. Certianly his insistance is suspicous, but he dosen't appear to suspect they are capable of independent thought, (anymore than he suspected the same of the raiders prior to their actions). It raises a lot of question about who they might be working with and/or what they might be doing atm.

    3. I think most people are right in that the whatchtower music was probably somthing the 7 wrote, but beyond that anything else (assuming point 2 holds true) is irrelevant since the hybrids could easily have acess to it. Likewise if they are working with somone or their is somone else out their that is unconnected to them thats upto stuff, if they have full memories pre-dating the cavil rebbelion then they would have acess to it. it dosen't have to be the 7 himself for it to turn up in any given place.

    4. given that the 5 where able to recreate res tech and apply it to themselves despite quite a few generations having passed, (meaning that their should be significant if minor diffrances betwen the originol rezzing type and non rezzing type), simply put it's probably possibble with a few modifications to rez just about anyone with it, meaning kara dosen't have to be anything other than a plain good old fashioned human to have been rezzed, she just needs adding to the system. Te big question is more where was she rezzed, who by, why, and why dosen'ty she remember anything. the thought is beginning to cross my mind that maybe kara wiped her own memory and sent herself back, in effect putting the ship on autopilot right before wiping her own memory. in fact given that she dosen't remember blacking out at all and it's a clear clean timetrack between "blowing up" and lee finding her it more or less had to have been done right there in her viper just before lee found her. So it makes kara the obvious choice for who, though it raises even more intresting questions about whats going on with her if she'd willingly go along with it once she had all the details.

    i did have a few moe thoughts but i'm a bit too tiered to go through them right now, i think i've given you eough to chew on for a while though.

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  • Avatar of Daxx00004

    Daxx00004

    [2]Mar 5, 2009
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    What if Daniel's memories and personality reside in all the hybrids on all the ships. Since the cylons store that info somewhere when a model is boxed or while downloading there has to be a storage facility and given enough time being trapped in the storage facility could a being's essence find a way to communicate.
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  • Avatar of Carl_Barrass

    Carl_Barrass

    [3]Mar 6, 2009
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    Daxx00004 wrote:
    What if Daniel's memories and personality reside in all the hybrids on all the ships. Since the cylons store that info somewhere when a model is boxed or while downloading there has to be a storage facility and given enough time being trapped in the storage facility could a being's essence find a way to communicate.

    I think some of you are obsessed with finding ways daniel might be alive. Yet again you tottally missed the important point, (now i'm less tierd i can make it a bit more clear). We have a bunch of hybrids out there plus up till recently some raiders, all of whom where quite simply capable of completly independent action.

    If they want given their ability to track and quite possibbly communicate with each other over huge distances the hybrids could vent all their ships deck's besides their own room, (and i'm sure they have ways of protecting themselves then too), wipe out galactica and the fleet with the rebel baseships weapos and go off on their merry way completly free and unaffected by anyone, why are they doing anything eithier side asks them to, they can stop eithier side any time they want and their's nothing anyone or anything can do to stop them because no one even sees them, they're "just hybrids". Whilst i'm not saying their the so called "one true god", or even the old coloniol gods or anything like that, as far as the characters and fates of said characters that we know and love, (and hate), are concerned, the hybrids weild the power of god and our characters don't realise it.

    As I said they're capable of independent action, we've been wondering for a while what happened to starbuck in that nebula, but we've never really stopped to consider, the independent acting hybrids and raiders could EASILLY have done it, add in stealth tech to keep the cylon raiders off DRADIS and a combination of grab+FTL and a well timeed Nuke and they could have spirited Kara away completly alive whikle making everyone think she was dead. (The crashed ship is supicous to me, why port her all the way across the galaxy, let her crash and burn, and then rez her and send her back. More is/was/did happen with that IMHO). Right now i'm betting very good money on the Hybrids being involved in that.

    Also I had a pretty electrifying thought while watching No Exit a few minutes ago, (i'm still catching up so some of my thoughts are based off pure spoilers to date), how do we know that De'Anna is really dead, everyone belives it but is she. All this is supposed to have happened before, and will happen again, thus how do we know for sure that De'Anna won't be back next cycle... I was looking at Kara and remaking to myself how much she looks like the 3's and 6's, i wondered at one time if she might be a 6 and it crossed my mind, but the other 6's would know surely. But what about a 3 from the last time this happened, they wouldn't nesecerilly be that similar looking, but it might explain a few things, somone from the last cycle trying to break this cycle...... Don't really think thats the anwser, but i sure know it scared the frak out of me when i first thought of it. Still I thought i'd throw it out there, more to point out that while De'anna's role is probably over in this cycle, we can't say for sure if it's permanantly over in the wider history...

    Also my point about the old and new hybrids knowing so much raises som intresting questions about the guardians and normal cylon society. they've had some contact, and given how much other stuff cavil has doctered memmory wise i'm really begining to wonder if they ran away when the others belive they did, or did they just run when cavil staged his rebellion? If the 7 survived, that would be how IMHO.

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  • Avatar of sheli20

    sheli20

    [4]Mar 6, 2009
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    Carl_Barrass wrote:

    3. I think most people are right in that the whatchtower music was probably somthing the 7 wrote, but beyond that anything else (assuming point 2 holds true) is irrelevant since the hybrids could easily have acess to it. Likewise if they are working with somone or their is somone else out their that is unconnected to them thats upto stuff, if they have full memories pre-dating the cavil rebbelion then they would have acess to it. it dosen't have to be the 7 himself for it to turn up in any given place.

    It wouldn't make sense for 7 to have written it since Anders was playing this song 2000 years before, on earth.

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  • Avatar of Carl_Barrass

    Carl_Barrass

    [5]Mar 8, 2009
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    wrote:

    It wouldn't make sense for 7 to have written it since Anders was playing this song 2000 years before, on earth.

    At the time i wrote the OP i hadn't watched any of the second half of season 4, i'd just read the spoilers. It was a combination of those spoilers and re-watching "The Hub" that made me sit up and think.

    Simply put we've assumed to date their was this crazy mysterious manipulator out their playing with things, in reality there's no reasons why that manipulatour couldn't be the hybrids themselvs. If their involved with kara in any way then they defintly have somone working with them/for them or their working for that individual instead. But you don't need one single entity overseeing everything, tweaking everything e.t.c. The Hybrids could have done it all.

    That gives the hybrids an enourmous amount of power, baseships don't function fully without them, to quote B5

    Delenn wrote:
    How will you have a war when no one will fight for eithier of you.
    In the end the hybrids can stop eithier or boths sides at will.

    But for me the biggest question is:

    What have the hybrids been doing for the last 40 years with all that power thast we, the Coloniols, and the Cylons don't know about?

    Dosen't that question intrest anyone?

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  • Avatar of dragon755

    dragon755

    [6]Mar 9, 2009
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    Carl_Barrass wrote:
    If they want given their ability to track and quite possibbly communicate with each other over huge distances the hybrids could vent all their ships deck's besides their own room, (and i'm sure they have ways of protecting themselves then too), wipe out galactica and the fleet with the rebel baseships weapos and go off on their merry way completly free and unaffected by anyone, why are they doing anything eithier side asks them to, they can stop eithier side any time they want and their's nothing anyone or anything can do to stop them because no one even sees them, they're "just hybrids". Whilst i'm not saying their the so called "one true god", or even the old coloniol gods or anything like that, as far as the characters and fates of said characters that we know and love, (and hate), are concerned, the hybrids weild the power of god and our characters don't realise it.

    You that is actually a cool plan to totally wipe out both of them....

    Carl_Barrass wrote:

    As I said they're capable of independent action, we've been wondering for a while what happened to starbuck in that nebula, but we've never really stopped to consider, the independent acting hybrids and raiders could EASILLY have done it, add in stealth tech to keep the cylon raiders off DRADIS and a combination of grab+FTL and a well timeed Nuke and they could have spirited Kara away completly alive whikle making everyone think she was dead. (The crashed ship is supicous to me, why port her all the way across the galaxy, let her crash and burn, and then rez her and send her back. More is/was/did happen with that IMHO). Right now i'm betting very good money on the Hybrids being involved in that.v

    ...I'm thinking you are putting too much into the story of the hybrids here.... mean don't get me wrong, they are important to the plot and there is something about them, but somehow i doubt that they went to all that trouble. I'm also sure its easier (both in explaining it storywise, and for the general bsg plot) than that to explain Kara. She blew up, and someone made a new body and viper of hers. remember the viper that came back had no markings or dents that the orginal had before it left. no if i was the writers i would say that it was this 'higher being' whoever they are, rather than the hybrids. Oh and not too mention we saw the ship crunch up into a small ball before it blew up...explain that one.

    Carl_Barrass wrote:

    Also I had a pretty electrifying thought while watching No Exit a few minutes ago, (i'm still catching up so some of my thoughts are based off pure spoilers to date), how do we know that De'Anna is really dead, everyone belives it but is she. All this is supposed to have happened before, and will happen again, thus how do we know for sure that De'Anna won't be back next cycle... I was looking at Kara and remaking to myself how much she looks like the 3's and 6's, i wondered at one time if she might be a 6 and it crossed my mind, but the other 6's would know surely. But what about a 3 from the last time this happened, they wouldn't nesecerilly be that similar looking, but it might explain a few things, somone from the last cycle trying to break this cycle...... Don't really think thats the anwser, but i sure know it scared the frak out of me when i first thought of it. Still I thought i'd throw it out there, more to point out that while De'anna's role is probably over in this cycle, we can't say for sure if it's permanantly over in the wider history...

    D'ana is not dead...she stayed on earth, but i do agree, i dont think her part in this story is over. and the final five are from the previous cycle and are trying to prevent it but in doing so they helped cause it. Again your putting too much onto one character that really has no basis for

    Carl_Barrass wrote:

    Also my point about the old and new hybrids knowing so much raises som intresting questions about the guardians and normal cylon society. they've had some contact, and given how much other stuff cavil has doctered memmory wise i'm really begining to wonder if they ran away when the others belive they did, or did they just run when cavil staged his rebellion? If the 7 survived, that would be how IMHO.

    ...im a little confused at what your trying to say here.....

    But overall i agree in that they know something, and john is trying to hide it. I think john has something big planned and is doing everything he can to stop people realising it.

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  • Avatar of Carl_Barrass

    Carl_Barrass

    [7]Mar 9, 2009
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    Glad I got a reply, i'll go through each rely in turn:

    1. Glad i gave you somthing intresting to chew on.

    2. I think your missing the point again. Your looking for mystical anwsers. The Hybrids know what it is that makes kara special, Given that they've dumped all mystacisem overboard all of a sudden on BSG they aren't going to know about it because they have some connection with an omminicent god. It will have a hard science anwser which narrows it down to pretty much 3 possobbilities:

    A) They know/are aware of the inividual/s responsible for whatever it is that makes kara special

    B) They are working with/for the individual/s that are responsible for making Kara special.

    C) they themselves are the ones responsible for whatever makes kara special, (though they allmost certianly would have to have a servant or two to do grunt work amongst the coloniols).

    And them being aware or involved in whatever is going on with kara opens a pandora's box of arkward questions, with no clear anwsers.

    Your point about Kara viper is good, it's been a while since i re-watched that episode, (my DVD's are scratched to hell so a lot of season 3 is very jumpy), but if you do re-watch it, (or in my case the fragments you i can), then you'fd realise the way the ship comes apart, (very explosivly, (and it dosen't scrunch into a ball before blowing up, just catches fire and distorts a lot)), that the viper remains on eath cannot be hers. Their just wouldn't be enough left of them for that, even if said remains where to be suddenly teleported into earths atmosphere you wouldn't get the kind of spread we saw, and you sure as hell wouldn't get an intact cockpit with a body like that. So eithier we have 2 dead kara's and 2 vipers, or the viper we saw explode didn't have Kara in it, (or it wasn't even kara's viper, which is the theroy i threw forward, TBH i only remembered part of that scene, so i seemed to remember seeing that scene from furthar away where some ambiguity was possibble over what exploded, (some still is actually, it would just be a lot harder to make work). The point i was getting at really though was this:

    Why Kill/Kidnap Kara, scatter the remains of A viper with a Body, (presumebly Kara's, did we ever get DNA confirmation, i don't remember hearing it but i would presume we did?), in it over earth, and then send her and a brand new viper back to the fleet 3 months later with missing memmories, other than getting the fleet to earth, what did it achive? I just don't get it TBH. They could have arraged a lot less complicated methods, and why wait 3 full months? I just don't see what it did other than frak with Kara's head, i'm just left with the feeling that a lot more went on in that time frame than we currently know about, and thats what i'm getting at. The way kara's dissaperance and reaperance was handled and the ramifications of it just don't make much sense right now, it feels like somthings missing from the picture in that section of time.

    3. Where did i say De'anna was dead, I said she was out of the way. Unless cavil picks her up or they go back for her she isn't going to be playing ANY part AT ALL in the rest of this series, but i wouldn't be suprised to find that the previous cycles 3 had some influance on events in this cycle, she may even be the mystry manipulator, (or one of them, i can't say i am 100% convinced theirs just one yet), trying to put an end to "this merry go round" for good, (doubt it will work though). Though i would expect her to be even more subtle than our mystry manipulator TBH if she was fiddling with things. More likliy her influance has been and gone.

    4. What i'm saying is that according to athena's story in razor the Hybrid on the guardian basestar never had any contact with the skinjobs or other hybrids, (because they hadn't been created yet). Given however it shares knowlage with the current hybrids thats clearly not true, given that and how cavils doctered memmories allready i'm forced to question all of athena's story, she may not realise it's not true, but theirs a strong possibbility IMHO that it's all false.

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    ummhaniyyah

    [8]Mar 10, 2009
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    This is a response to the original post:

    1) The fact that the hybrids can act without the direction/command of the humanoid Cylons is not evidence that they can act independently. If we believe the 'mystical' suggestion that has been offered a few times now, it is possible that when they act seemingly on their own and inexplicably that they are acting under the influence of some greater power. Whether or not you accept that theory, I hope you'll concede that acting without being commanded to do so by the humanoid Cylons does not logically mean independent action.

    2) The hybrids don't think in a linear fashion - in fact they don't think the way any of the other characters do - so when you speak of them making (conscious) decisions or communicating with one another (consciously) that can also be called into question. Rather than taking reasoned decisions they may well simply be acting on impulse or responding to some transitory thought they've had and as for communication, maybe they are linked; a part of some kind of hive mind and not participating in conscious communication.

    3) Kara being resurrected. I don't think your argument about the Final Five and resurrection technology necessarily leads to the conclusion that Kara, a 'plain human', was resurrected. Resurrection worked for the Five and for the subsequent Cylons because they had prepared and stockpiled suitable (Cylon) bodies for the purpose. There has never been any suggestion in the show that blank, imprintable human bodies were being or could be reproduced. While I've no other solution for what happened to Kara, beyond a temporal or dimensional one, I just don't think the resurrection theory works.

    4) I'll underscore that the mystical thread in the show has not disappeared as you stated - it's just changed form. Now the major characters feel that they are being manipulated by some larger unknown powerful force.

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  • Avatar of dragon755

    dragon755

    [9]Mar 10, 2009
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    Carl_Barrass wrote:

    Glad I got a reply, i'll go through each rely in turn:

    1. Glad i gave you somthing intresting to chew on.

    2. I think your missing the point again. Your looking for mystical anwsers. The Hybrids know what it is that makes kara special, Given that they've dumped all mystacisem overboard all of a sudden on BSG they aren't going to know about it because they have some connection with an omminicent god. It will have a hard science anwser which narrows it down to pretty much 3 possobbilities:

    A) They know/are aware of the inividual/s responsible for whatever it is that makes kara special

    B) They are working with/for the individual/s that are responsible for making Kara special.

    C) they themselves are the ones responsible for whatever makes kara special, (though they allmost certianly would have to have a servant or two to do grunt work amongst the coloniols).

    And them being aware or involved in whatever is going on with kara opens a pandora's box of arkward questions, with no clear anwsers.

    Your point about Kara viper is good, it's been a while since i re-watched that episode, (my DVD's are scratched to hell so a lot of season 3 is very jumpy), but if you do re-watch it, (or in my case the fragments you i can), then you'fd realise the way the ship comes apart, (very explosivly, (and it dosen't scrunch into a ball before blowing up, just catches fire and distorts a lot)), that the viper remains on eath cannot be hers. Their just wouldn't be enough left of them for that, even if said remains where to be suddenly teleported into earths atmosphere you wouldn't get the kind of spread we saw, and you sure as hell wouldn't get an intact cockpit with a body like that. So eithier we have 2 dead kara's and 2 vipers, or the viper we saw explode didn't have Kara in it, (or it wasn't even kara's viper, which is the theroy i threw forward, TBH i only remembered part of that scene, so i seemed to remember seeing that scene from furthar away where some ambiguity was possibble over what exploded, (some still is actually, it would just be a lot harder to make work). The point i was getting at really though was this:

    Why Kill/Kidnap Kara, scatter the remains of A viper with a Body, (presumebly Kara's, did we ever get DNA confirmation, i don't remember hearing it but i would presume we did?), in it over earth, and then send her and a brand new viper back to the fleet 3 months later with missing memmories, other than getting the fleet to earth, what did it achive? I just don't get it TBH. They could have arraged a lot less complicated methods, and why wait 3 full months? I just don't see what it did other than frak with Kara's head, i'm just left with the feeling that a lot more went on in that time frame than we currently know about, and thats what i'm getting at. The way kara's dissaperance and reaperance was handled and the ramifications of it just don't make much sense right now, it feels like somthings missing from the picture in that section of time.

    3. Where did i say De'anna was dead, I said she was out of the way. Unless cavil picks her up or they go back for her she isn't going to be playing ANY part AT ALL in the rest of this series, but i wouldn't be suprised to find that the previous cycles 3 had some influance on events in this cycle, she may even be the mystry manipulator, (or one of them, i can't say i am 100% convinced theirs just one yet), trying to put an end to "this merry go round" for good, (doubt it will work though). Though i would expect her to be even more subtle than our mystry manipulator TBH if she was fiddling with things. More likliy her influance has been and gone.

    4. What i'm saying is that according to athena's story in razor the Hybrid on the guardian basestar never had any contact with the skinjobs or other hybrids, (because they hadn't been created yet). Given however it shares knowlage with the current hybrids thats clearly not true, given that and how cavils doctered memmories allready i'm forced to question all of athena's story, she may not realise it's not true, but theirs a strong possibbility IMHO that it's all false.

    Wow i really read your post wrong there sorry...

    2. Sorry i didnt mean to suggest a 'mystical force' as in a god, but i think we all agree there is something, i guess i just cant see them explaining it through the hybrids, but i have been wrong before. and im going through the episodes right now so ill tell you exactly wat happened to her viper in a couple of days but yes, 'crunch into a ball' may have been pushing it, i just meant massively bent out of shape i suppose... but yes i agree...i demand some answer about what happened during those months!!!

    3. um you said:

    Carl_Barrass wrote:
    how do we know that De'Anna is really dead, everyone belives it but is she.

    i had assumed that you thought she was dead. correct me if im wrong

    4... AHHHH ok now i understand...kinda. I havent watched the entire razor episode/s so i can't really comment on them but given what your saying there i agree they know something and john is trying to prevent them from revealling it. I bet john knows alot more than any of us realise

    Edited on 03/10/2009 12:51am
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  • Avatar of MetaLuna

    MetaLuna

    [10]Mar 10, 2009
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    You know, if you wait 2 weeks, you'll find out.
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  • Avatar of dragon755

    dragon755

    [11]Mar 10, 2009
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    MetaLuna wrote:
    You know, if you wait 2 weeks, you'll find out.

    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH As if! its the whole point is keeping guessing till we find out we're wrong...

    Anyway i'm watching season 3 episode, rapture (the one d'anna sees the faces of the five and then dies) and i thought this was an intresting speech made by her:

    'To know the face of god, is to know madness. The Hybrid has looked in to the space between life and death, and she's seen things that we cannot conceive of, but she's been driven mad as a result.'

    Now, trying to ignore a possible 'mystic' answer, is it possible that the hybrids are connected to the major power because it is between life and death, whatever that means and ofcourse ive completely forgotten where i was going with this.But its here to feed your idea if possible.

    You know im starting to warm up to this idea of yours...

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  • Avatar of Carl_Barrass

    Carl_Barrass

    [12]Mar 10, 2009
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    wrote:

    This is a response to the original post:

    1) The fact that the hybrids can act without the direction/command of the humanoid Cylons is not evidence that they can act independently. If we believe the 'mystical' suggestion that has been offered a few times now, it is possible that when they act seemingly on their own and inexplicably that they are acting under the influence of some greater power. Whether or not you accept that theory, I hope you'll concede that acting without being commanded to do so by the humanoid Cylons does not logically mean independent action.

    2) The hybrids don't think in a linear fashion - in fact they don't think the way any of the other characters do - so when you speak of them making (conscious) decisions or communicating with one another (consciously) that can also be called into question. Rather than taking reasoned decisions they may well simply be acting on impulse or responding to some transitory thought they've had and as for communication, maybe they are linked; a part of some kind of hive mind and not participating in conscious communication.

    3) Kara being resurrected. I don't think your argument about the Final Five and resurrection technology necessarily leads to the conclusion that Kara, a 'plain human', was resurrected. Resurrection worked for the Five and for the subsequent Cylons because they had prepared and stockpiled suitable (Cylon) bodies for the purpose. There has never been any suggestion in the show that blank, imprintable human bodies were being or could be reproduced. While I've no other solution for what happened to Kara, beyond a temporal or dimensional one, I just don't think the resurrection theory works.

    4) I'll underscore that the mystical thread in the show has not disappeared as you stated - it's just changed form. Now the major characters feel that they are being manipulated by some larger unknown powerful force.

    1. You raise a good point, but where did i say the hybrids are defintly acting on my own? I suggested it as a possibbility, but i've also listed posobbilities relating to somone else overlooking them as a boss. However the main reason i tend to belive all hybrids are capable of autonamous action is simply the raiders. They had a previosuly unsuspected ability to take action on their own, given one group has allready displayed this on mass, and we've had one current model hybrid display it and one old model hybrid running the show on his ship, (in razor). It's a strong argument for it IMHO. Also consider that this manipulator must have some pretty strong recourses on hand to do some of the things they've done, where are they getting all that support? I just don't belive their are too many ways they could introduce effectivlly a full 3rd faction at least the size and power of the coloniols into the equation this late in the game and make it belivable, that makes using allready existing rescources we know about and didn't suspect they where using. The Hybrids would be perfect for this, and for whatever reason 2 of them have shown the ability to think and act independently.

    The only point my ilder theroies where trying to make is that we musn't start assuming that the hybrids must be working for the manipulator, they could be working in partnership or even on their own but aware of the manipuklators actions, it's even possibble, if unlikly, that they are the manipulator. You can't dismiss any of the possobilities because they are all possibble ATM, theirs no direct evidance against them.

    2. Your repeating the same mistake some B5 fans made with the Vorlons and Shadows, (and to be fair at times the minbari). Just because they think in a manner we cannot understand with objectives that don't completly make sense from our PoV dosen't mean they're incapable of having their own form of logic within their own frame of referance with their own objectives coming out of it. Not to mention they certianly seem able to comprehend whats going on with Kara.

    Leaving aside the hybrid from razor and the fact that he had to have made a lot of "concious decishiouns", theirs the simple fact that they do every job on the base ships that all the computers and personell on galactica do. The only things they don't do are Secruity (Centurions), Pilots, (raiders), and Adam's job, (Skinjobs). The Skinjobs may decide what action to take, but the Hybrid carries it out, and to be blunt their no way you can run somthing so complex on just instinct, when battle damage builds up and things start going wrong you'll have issues no matter what. But even if you accept that they don't make concious decishions to do their jobs, then how do you explain their reactions to kara, that sure as hell isn't programmed into them from day one, yet they only mutter about it when she's around?

    TBH though where into a very difficult argument here, even scientists can't adequetly define the lne between concious thought and instinct to their own satisfaction so i don't think where going to settle it here, lets just say i feel the hybrids have shown enough examples of making decishions on their own and taking actions on their own to give a very high chance of them being able to have concious thoughts.

    3. The how do you explain the body on earth, even assuming it wasn't her viper we saw blow up in S3?

    4. And i'll underscore my B5 point, a lot of mystical crap happened in that show that ultimetly had hard science and facts underneath, same thing happened with the cylon god+7+5 we got a crap load of mystacisem, and then we got the anwsers and ithe mystacism giot dumbed overboard. Same thing is going to happen with the mystacisem we have now, it's ging to get dunmped when we get our anwsers.

    dragon755 wrote:
    Carl_Barrass wrote:

    Glad I got a reply, i'll go through each rely in turn:

    1. Glad i gave you somthing intresting to chew on.

    2. I think your missing the point again. Your looking for mystical anwsers. The Hybrids know what it is that makes kara special, Given that they've dumped all mystacisem overboard all of a sudden on BSG they aren't going to know about it because they have some connection with an omminicent god. It will have a hard science anwser which narrows it down to pretty much 3 possobbilities:

    A) They know/are aware of the inividual/s responsible for whatever it is that makes kara special

    B) They are working with/for the individual/s that are responsible for making Kara special.

    C) they themselves are the ones responsible for whatever makes kara special, (though they allmost certianly would have to have a servant or two to do grunt work amongst the coloniols).

    And them being aware or involved in whatever is going on with kara opens a pandora's box of arkward questions, with no clear anwsers.

    Your point about Kara viper is good, it's been a while since i re-watched that episode, (my DVD's are scratched to hell so a lot of season 3 is very jumpy), but if you do re-watch it, (or in my case the fragments you i can), then you'fd realise the way the ship comes apart, (very explosivly, (and it dosen't scrunch into a ball before blowing up, just catches fire and distorts a lot)), that the viper remains on eath cannot be hers. Their just wouldn't be enough left of them for that, even if said remains where to be suddenly teleported into earths atmosphere you wouldn't get the kind of spread we saw, and you sure as hell wouldn't get an intact cockpit with a body like that. So eithier we have 2 dead kara's and 2 vipers, or the viper we saw explode didn't have Kara in it, (or it wasn't even kara's viper, which is the theroy i threw forward, TBH i only remembered part of that scene, so i seemed to remember seeing that scene from furthar away where some ambiguity was possibble over what exploded, (some still is actually, it would just be a lot harder to make work). The point i was getting at really though was this:

    Why Kill/Kidnap Kara, scatter the remains of A viper with a Body, (presumebly Kara's, did we ever get DNA confirmation, i don't remember hearing it but i would presume we did?), in it over earth, and then send her and a brand new viper back to the fleet 3 months later with missing memmories, other than getting the fleet to earth, what did it achive? I just don't get it TBH. They could have arraged a lot less complicated methods, and why wait 3 full months? I just don't see what it did other than frak with Kara's head, i'm just left with the feeling that a lot more went on in that time frame than we currently know about, and thats what i'm getting at. The way kara's dissaperance and reaperance was handled and the ramifications of it just don't make much sense right now, it feels like somthings missing from the picture in that section of time.

    3. Where did i say De'anna was dead, I said she was out of the way. Unless cavil picks her up or they go back for her she isn't going to be playing ANY part AT ALL in the rest of this series, but i wouldn't be suprised to find that the previous cycles 3 had some influance on events in this cycle, she may even be the mystry manipulator, (or one of them, i can't say i am 100% convinced theirs just one yet), trying to put an end to "this merry go round" for good, (doubt it will work though). Though i would expect her to be even more subtle than our mystry manipulator TBH if she was fiddling with things. More likliy her influance has been and gone.

    4. What i'm saying is that according to athena's story in razor the Hybrid on the guardian basestar never had any contact with the skinjobs or other hybrids, (because they hadn't been created yet). Given however it shares knowlage with the current hybrids thats clearly not true, given that and how cavils doctered memmories allready i'm forced to question all of athena's story, she may not realise it's not true, but theirs a strong possibbility IMHO that it's all false.

    Wow i really read your post wrong there sorry...

    2. Sorry i didnt mean to suggest a 'mystical force' as in a god, but i think we all agree there is something, i guess i just cant see them explaining it through the hybrids, but i have been wrong before. and im going through the episodes right now so ill tell you exactly wat happened to her viper in a couple of days but yes, 'crunch into a ball' may have been pushing it, i just meant massively bent out of shape i suppose... but yes i agree...i demand some answer about what happened during those months!!!

    3. um you said:

    Carl_Barrass wrote:
    how do we know that De'Anna is really dead, everyone belives it but is she.

    i had assumed that you thought she was dead. correct me if im wrong

    4... AHHHH ok now i understand...kinda. I havent watched the entire razor episode/s so i can't really comment on them but given what your saying there i agree they know something and john is trying to prevent them from revealling it. I bet john knows alot more than any of us realise

    NP mate we all misunderstand from time to time:

    2. *grins* no problem i'm just getting fed up of people chasing mystical anwsers that are going to stay mystical. Everything they've done to date points towards them dropping the mystacism once they have the anwsers and with that in mind we can't ignore the logical discrepancies in what hapened with kara anymore.

    3. I was reffering to how many posters act like she's dead in other thread, personolly i wouldn't count her out yet, i just don't expect her to have any direct influance eithier.

    4. kk, np

    dragon755 wrote:

    MetaLuna wrote:
    You know, if you wait 2 weeks, you'll find out.

    BAHAHAHAHAHAHAH As if! its the whole point is keeping guessing till we find out we're wrong...

    Anyway i'm watching season 3 episode, rapture (the one d'anna sees the faces of the five and then dies) and i thought this was an intresting speech made by her:

    'To know the face of god, is to know madness. The Hybrid has looked in to the space between life and death, and she's seen things that we cannot conceive of, but she's been driven mad as a result.'

    Now, trying to ignore a possible 'mystic' answer, is it possible that the hybrids are connected to the major power because it is between life and death, whatever that means and ofcourse ive completely forgotten where i was going with this.But its here to feed your idea if possible.

    You know im starting to warm up to this idea of yours...

    I suspect it's just fact's disguised as mystacism, possibbly they have acsess to the downloads of all the cylons and have probably been able to unlock any "locked" memmories in the downloads, (actually makes the most sense as a reason for why cavil has never been able to wipe their memories if my theroy on that is correct). Could be somthing completly diffrent as well. But again I suspect mystacism disguising facts.

    The real purpose of this thread TBH was to pose questions. The hybrids have, (for whatever reasons) been able to take indpendent action, overiding commands from the skinjobs all along, the who, the how, the why don't really mater to this, they'yve been able to do it, so what have they been doing for 40 years with this ability, i can't belive they've just laid their doing nothing, so what the hell have they been upto, (regardless of why, or how, or even maybe who).

    People have become so caught up in the questions surrounding what kara is and what cavil will do and whats going to happen next that they're not asking important questions raised about past events by the direction they've suddenly gone in.

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