Black. White. Forums

FX (ended 2006)

Bruno's video and Bruno in general

  • Avatar of ItAintEazy

    ItAintEazy

    [21]Apr 19, 2006
    • member since: 06/11/05
    • level: 3
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    • posts: 119
    Listen to yourself. You deny that people belittle what black people go through, but then you say that "slavery happened all the time"

    If you are not going to belittle the Holocaust by saying "genocide happened all the time" then why minimize black slavery and the hardships that followed?

    And yes, Jews have leveraged the Holocaust in order to collect reparations, and even to get the U.N. to sanction their own country. Are you going to start accusing them of playing victimization games?

    But you and Bruno are right, blacks are lazy, they should just shut up, get a job and quit whining.
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  • Avatar of JLUVANIME

    JLUVANIME

    [22]Apr 19, 2006
    • member since: 03/22/06
    • level: 6
    • rank: Small Wonder
    • posts: 163
    minou_chere wrote:
    JLUVANIME wrote:
    Listen, it's not about the slavery thing, it's mostly about the racism thing. You know the aftermath of slavery.


    I'll ignore the fact that you spent two paragraphs saying it was about slavery, that was why there is such anger towards whites. My response doesn't say it's about slavery either, it's just trying to make you aware that other groups have been victims of the same injustices (if not even worse ones) as black people, women still aren't earning the same as men today, some men still don't take women seriously. The difference is you don't see women sitting around complaining about it, they're graduating high school and going to college in higher numbers than ever, they're beginning to gain control of companies and starting groups to counsel young girls to get them to succeed.


    The same concept applies to blacks. We're not complaining, we're just saying that there are people like you in the world that just don't get it! You mean to tell me that you've never seen or heard a woman that wanted to speak out against discrimination? If you haven't, I'm sorry for you, but while I'm here, let me just speak for them. Yes I am a woman, and that is no reason to discriminate against me for. I wish everyone was treated equally. Some men are sexist and I do think that's wrong, but do you call that complaining? NO! This is exactly the reason why the United States has never had a black or female president. I just wish that I could walk down the street in a white neighborhood and not see little old white ladies take their children and go across the street. I'm not using my race to justify everything that went wrong in my life. Once slaves were free, do you expect us to just forget what happened to our ancestors? Do you expect for the slave owners to free their slaves and everything would just be fine? I'm sorry, but that's just not realistic.
    I admit, racism does occur on both sides. There are some black people that are racist against white people. I wouldn't blame a white person to say that they were discriminated against because they were white. That's okay. It's just the other people, people with little stinky attitudes like you, that get on my nerves. Those are the people we're talking about.
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  • Avatar of minou_chere

    minou_chere

    [23]Apr 20, 2006
    • member since: 09/15/05
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 28
    ItAintEazy wrote:
    Listen to yourself. You deny that people belittle what black people go through, but then you say that "slavery happened all the time"

    If you are not going to belittle the Holocaust by saying "genocide happened all the time" then why minimize black slavery and the hardships that followed?

    And yes, Jews have leveraged the Holocaust in order to collect reparations, and even to get the U.N. to sanction their own country. Are you going to start accusing them of playing victimization games?

    But you and Bruno are right, blacks are lazy, they should just shut up, get a job and quit whining.


    I'm not denying that slavery was a terrible thing, the point is that 150 years after it ended, it shouldn't still be an excuse, there's no black person alive today who was a slave in the south and with the exception of maybe one or two centenarians there's no black person alive today who even knew someone who was a slave.

    The holocaust is a totally different issue, those people weren't enslaved they were brutally murdered by the millions. Not every group can claim genocide on that level. It wasn't a few bad managers who did it, it was the systemized planned eradication of a group. A government actually formulized this plan and executed it, and it happened 60 years ago, there are still a good amount of survivors alive today. Plus another huge part of the holocause was the appropriation of property and funds from people who were fairly wealthy. So you have families who'd worked very hard to amass wealth and position suddenly stripped to nothing, of course those people deserve reparations. Now if they were asking for reparations from the Egyptians I'd feel the same way as I do about the black community.

    That doesn't mean I belittle what slaves went through, but unless I am some how benefitting from the slave trade (which no one alive today is by the way, the south was stripped of it's wealth after the civil war and most former slave owners were put into extreme poverty) I am not responsible and shouldn't be treated as though I were.

    At this point, the slavery of blacks is comparable to the slavery of any group (and every group has been a slave at some point or another) as in it never directly affected the lives of anyone alive today and should be treated as an aspect of your culture but not an excuse for bitterness and anger towards the group that enslaved you.

    Of course you think I don't get it, because you close your ears to any view point differing from your own and say I do the same. You continue to justify your anger at whites, perpetuating racism and ensuring that things won't change.

    Black.white had a great opportunity to finally have a real discussion about the difference between white and black perceptions, maybe to make each other understand, but instead they villified Bruno and made Carmen and Rose look like completely emotional idiots, while the Sparks' continued to hold their anger and bitterness with no resolutions. When the whole "B*tch" incident happened, there shouldn't have been anger, there should've been a discussion. Carmen obviously had no clue about black culture besides what she sees in the media and Renee should've explained that her perception was false rather than becoming the stereotypical angry black woman. The same with Bruno and Brian, maybe if Brian had actually listened to what Bruno was saying, he would've realized that a lot of what he perceives as racism isn't meant that way by whites. If I move away when I see people walking on the sidewalk, it may be out of politeness of not making them move over for me, rather than about what color their skin is, but of course Brian held onto his views as rigidly as Bruno did his. And yes, I tend to agree with Bruno, I react to people according to how they treat me, it has nothing to do with their race. If I meet a black man who is courteous and polite, I treat him with the same respect I would for a white man who is the same. If I see someone who is inarticulate and slovenly, I am going to avoid them, no matter the color. If I met someone like Brian, I would be polite to him until the anger came out then I would avoid him, because it isn't worth my time to invest in people who are racist.
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  • Avatar of minou_chere

    minou_chere

    [24]Apr 20, 2006
    • member since: 09/15/05
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 28
    JLUVANIME wrote:
    The same concept applies to blacks. We're not complaining, we're just saying that there are people like you in the world that just don't get it! You mean to tell me that you've never seen or heard a woman that wanted to speak out against discrimination? If you haven't, I'm sorry for you, but while I'm here, let me just speak for them. Yes I am a woman, and that is no reason to discriminate against me for. I wish everyone was treated equally. Some men are sexist and I do think that's wrong, but do you call that complaining? NO! This is exactly the reason why the United States has never had a black or female president. I just wish that I could walk down the street in a white neighborhood and not see little old white ladies take their children and go across the street. I'm not using my race to justify everything that went wrong in my life. Once slaves were free, do you expect us to just forget what happened to our ancestors? Do you expect for the slave owners to free their slaves and everything would just be fine? I'm sorry, but that's just not realistic.
    I admit, racism does occur on both sides. There are some black people that are racist against white people. I wouldn't blame a white person to say that they were discriminated against because they were white. That's okay. It's just the other people, people with little stinky attitudes like you, that get on my nerves. Those are the people we're talking about.


    It's ok, I realize you're young, you still live in a bubble somewhat and haven't experienced the things life throws at everyone, regardless of color.

    Just as an explanation, I never said I didn't know a woman who has stood up against sexism, yes sexism sucks, just like racism does, but the difference is that women don't use sexism as an excuse for why they aren't succeeding. Of course you should stand up for yourself, you should go to school, become educated and try to make a difference, try to educate the next generation of girls so they can succeed too. If you're black, the same thing applies, every successful black person should have a vested interest in their community, in ensuring that the next generation succeeds on a greater level. The ones who can afford it should be funding scholarships and other charities to make that possible. But you should never allow bigotry towards another group, even if they're white. If you hear my words and think I'm racist, then you should avoid me. If you see my actions and think they're bigoted then you should avoid me. But you don't use me as an excuse for your own failure. Then you're letting me win. It's just funny that when a successful black man says the same, he's villified as well.

    You may think my attitude is "stinky" but all I'm trying to do is make you aware that there's a turning point going on, that for there to be continued progress against racism you have to do it yourself, you have to stand on your own two feet and quit using slavery and segregation as an excuse, take the progress that has been made (and there has been tons of progress) and use it, make yourself successful, raise your children where they can go to good schools, ensure they get into good colleges so they succeed in life. And when you're old enough stand up against the negative images of your race, try to accentuate the positive. I will expect my children to do the same, and if they don't and they end up in poverty it's not the government's job to bail them out, they had the opportunities and didn't take them, so it's their own fault. Is that really such a "stinky" attitude?
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  • Avatar of ItAintEazy

    ItAintEazy

    [25]Apr 20, 2006
    • member since: 06/11/05
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 119
    minou_chere wrote:
    I'm not denying that slavery was a terrible thing, the point is that 150 years after it ended, it shouldn't still be an excuse, there's no black person alive today who was a slave in the south and with the exception of maybe one or two centenarians there's no black person alive today who even knew someone who was a slave.


    So will the Holocaust be any less relevant to Jews 150 years after it happened? And at that time will your type accuse them of whining for bringing it up?

    :
    The holocaust is a totally different issue, those people weren't enslaved they were brutally murdered by the millions. Not every group can claim genocide on that level. It wasn't a few bad managers who did it, it was the systemized planned eradication of a group.


    Tell me how many blacks were murdered during their period of enslavement? And don't tell me that slavery wasn't every bit as institutionalized and programmed as the Holocaust. Perhaps Jews were robbed of their wealth. Blacks didn't even have a chance to accumulate wealth.

    :
    That doesn't mean I belittle what slaves went through, but unless I am some how benefitting from the slave trade (which no one alive today is by the way, the south was stripped of it's wealth after the civil war and most former slave owners were put into extreme poverty) I am not responsible and shouldn't be treated as though I were.


    As I said before, cotton made up close to 60 percent of the exports prior to the civil war, and slaves were used to build both the Capitol Building and the White House. Face it, this country wouldn't have been what it is now without the forced contribution of slaves. If you like enjoying the benefits this country has to offer, then you have better be prepared to accept the costs.

    :
    At this point, the slavery of blacks is comparable to the slavery of any group (and every group has been a slave at some point or another) as in it never directly affected the lives of anyone alive today and should be treated as an aspect of your culture but not an excuse for bitterness and anger towards the group that enslaved you.


    So what you are saying is that slavery should not have any relevance today since all participants have died out? Makes me wonder why we celebrate Independence Day or Christmas. All the Founding Fathers and the Redcoats are dead and gone and Christ and his disciples have left this world, why the hell should we care anymore?

    :
    Of course you think I don't get it, because you close your ears to any view point differing from your own and say I do the same. You continue to justify your anger at whites, perpetuating racism and ensuring that things won't change.


    You call blacks racists, minimize the legacy of slavery, ignore the problems of racism today, and you wonder why blacks are resentful?

    :
    Black.white had a great opportunity to finally have a real discussion about the difference between white and black perceptions, maybe to make each other understand, but instead they villified Bruno and made Carmen and Rose look like completely emotional idiots, while the Sparks' continued to hold their anger and bitterness with no resolutions. When the whole "B*tch" incident happened, there shouldn't have been anger, there should've been a discussion. Carmen obviously had no clue about black culture besides what she sees in the media and Renee should've explained that her perception was false rather than becoming the stereotypical angry black woman.


    Personally, I think the whole "b-i-t-c-h" thing was staged to create "conflict", and if it wasn't then I agree that Renee overreacted. But still, "stereotypical angry black woman?" I guess black women don't have any right to be angry or frustrated.

    :
    The same with Bruno and Brian, maybe if Brian had actually listened to what Bruno was saying, he would've realized that a lot of what he perceives as racism isn't meant that way by whites. If I move away when I see people walking on the sidewalk, it may be out of politeness of not making them move over for me, rather than about what color their skin is, but of course Brian held onto his views as rigidly as Bruno did his. And yes, I tend to agree with Bruno, I react to people according to how they treat me, it has nothing to do with their race. If I meet a black man who is courteous and polite, I treat him with the same respect I would for a white man who is the same. If I see someone who is inarticulate and slovenly, I am going to avoid them, no matter the color. If I met someone like Brian, I would be polite to him until the anger came out then I would avoid him, because it isn't worth my time to invest in people who are racist.


    No, Bruno simply refused to perceive any racism UNLESS he got called the "n" word. Even "emotional idiot" Carmen was able to sense the hostility towards them when they attended that all-white square dancing session in blackface.

    Not Bruno. It was all a game to him and it was all okay since he knows he can wipe off the greasepaint afterwards and become a racially insensitive white guy again.

    You mention how Bruno was able to "know" that people avoid him on the sidewalk because of "politeness", how come Rose and Carmen can't help but notice that the "politeness" was very abnormal when they were walking down the sidewalk in blackface.

    The half-assed denials I keep seeing should be perplexing, but it's not. As we've seen time and time again on that show when Brian and Renee interacted with whites in whiteface, a lot of whites are quite open in their efforts to maintain the racial inequalities and their social hegemonies. If they benefitted so much from primacy of whiteness, why should they give it up?
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  • Avatar of minou_chere

    minou_chere

    [26]Apr 26, 2006
    • member since: 09/15/05
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 28

    ItAintEazy wrote:
    So will the Holocaust be any less relevant to Jews 150 years after it happened? And at that time will your type accuse them of whining for bringing it up?

    I'm not accusing blacks of whining about slavery, if you look at my past posts you'll realize I've said repeatedly that the memory of slavery should be a part of your culture, you should teach your kids about past injustices, just like every other group should teach theirs to avoid complacency in the future.  So in 150 years when jewish people tell their kids about the Holocaust it'll be right, if however, they teach their children to hate Germans because of what was done to their ancestors that long ago, I'd have the same feelings.

     

    ItAintEazy wrote:
    Tell me how many blacks were murdered during their period of enslavement? And don't tell me that slavery wasn't every bit as institutionalized and programmed as the Holocaust. Perhaps Jews were robbed of their wealth. Blacks didn't even have a chance to accumulate wealth.

    It certainly wasn't a planned eradication of 100% of them, I'm not denying that some slave owners were cruel, but the majority of slaves were owned in small numbers by owners who worked alongside them.  Not to mention when you talk about the monetary value of a slave, those that owned them most often couldn't afford to be cruel to them.  Which of course is another point since only a small percentage of whites were ever slave owners, and of those less than 1% owned more than 100 slaves.  When you ask how many died in slavery you should refine that question a little more, plenty of slaves died natural deaths in slavery, not from overworking or being mistreated but just from living to the end of their life.  If you want to know how many died prematurely, I don't think that number can truly be devined, because it brings in life expectancy and the elimination of diseases that were not the fault of slave owners.  I would think that the number wouldn't be as high as you seem to think though.  Especially when you take into count the cost of a slave, which would essentially be equivalent to purchasing a car without financing in today's money, I don't know too many people who are able to do that and even less who would be careless with that car once they bought it, I would imagine it was the same with slaves, would you abuse something you couldn't replace that was essential to your family's wellbeing?

     

    ItAintEazy wrote:
    So what you are saying is that slavery should not have any relevance today since all participants have died out? Makes me wonder why we celebrate Independence Day or Christmas. All the Founding Fathers and the Redcoats are dead and gone and Christ and his disciples have left this world, why the hell should we care anymore?

    Again, I've never said it didn't have any relevance, I said it shouldn't be used as an excuse for hate and bigotry towards whites.  It also shouldn't be used as an excuse for why the black community isn't thriving.  You spend so much time defending the memory of slavery without even truly understanding what I'm saying, so again, I'll say it, a.) racism isn't just white on black, it's hate for anyone based on color, and no matter what injustices in your culture's past, there is no excuse for anger or hate towards someone strictly because of the color of their skin; b.) racism will not go away until ALL races let go of the chips on their shoulders and start treating each other with equality; c.) in the current day, it's time to start taking responsibility for your own actions, it's time to climb the ladder of success on your own and not to expect anyone to give you a helping hand.  I mean really, do you want to know you got an edge for a job because you're black?  I know as a woman I don't want that, I don't want any job I couldn't get on my own above all other applicants, using the same playing field they're using.  I don't point that just at blacks, I say the same thing about everyone, if you can't make it on your own, it's not the government's place to bail you out, at this point, everyone has access to public schools (no, not all of them are equal, but you should be able to at least get to a level to enter a college), there are thousands of colleges which offer scholarships to people with good grades and if you can't get one of those there are loans available to pretty much anyone and grants if you come from a family that's below the poverty level.  After that, it's all up to you whether you choose a major that's economically viable.  If higher education isn't for you then there are plenty of other options, but you have to accept that you're most likely going to live at a lower level of financial security and should adjust your life plans to fit that, so don't have more kids than you can afford, if an accident happens, consider adoption or try to find a relative who can support them.  These are the decisions that I would expect an adult to make, and to understand why their actions affect their future, everyone should be able to understand that concept and live by it and if you don't you should deal with the consequences of those actions rather than expect the government to bail you out, regardless of your skin color.

    ItAintEazy wrote:
    You call blacks racists, minimize the legacy of slavery, ignore the problems of racism today, and you wonder why blacks are resentful?

    I say some blacks are racists, but that it's tolerated and accepted among the community rather than met with uproar as it should be, by still hating whites you're essentially saying, it's wrong to hate us because of our skin color but it's right for me to hate you for yours, where does that make any sense?  I've minimized the validity of using slavery as an excuse, not the legacy of slavery which I think should be very important in keeping future generations aware of their culture and as for ignoring the problems of racism today, what do you think you're doing?  You only see it from your point of view, you see what you've gone through in your life and what your community has gone through and seem to think that whites live in the land of milk and honey that we're all rich and powerful and have never dealt with any kind of problem in our life, which frankly, is ridiculous.

    ItAintEazy wrote:
    Personally, I think the whole "b-i-t-c-h" thing was staged to create "conflict", and if it wasn't then I agree that Renee overreacted. But still, "stereotypical angry black woman?" I guess black women don't have any right to be angry or frustrated.

    Of course it was staged to create conflict, it's a tv show, without conflict there are no ratings.  But the whole point was how Renee reacted, she held onto that for the entire length of the show, it came up in every episode, and there was obviously never a discussion about it.  And again, how do you read one thing and interpret another?  How does a stereotypical image (which I think most people would agree exists) equal me thinking that someone doesn't have a right to ever feel that way?  Of course anyone has a right to feel angry or frustrated, if it's a justifiable reason, how was Renee's reaction to the "b*tch" comment justifiable?  If Carmen had turned around and said "well you are a b*tch" then I'd say she had a right, but that never happened, so to me the reaction was overblown.

    ItAintEazy wrote:
    No, Bruno simply refused to perceive any racism UNLESS he got called the "n" word. Even "emotional idiot" Carmen was able to sense the hostility towards them when they attended that all-white square dancing session in blackface. Not Bruno. It was all a game to him and it was all okay since he knows he can wipe off the greasepaint afterwards and become a racially insensitive white guy again. You mention how Bruno was able to "know" that people avoid him on the sidewalk because of "politeness", how come Rose and Carmen can't help but notice that the "politeness" was very abnormal when they were walking down the sidewalk in blackface. The half-assed denials I keep seeing should be perplexing, but it's not. As we've seen time and time again on that show when Brian and Renee interacted with whites in whiteface, a lot of whites are quite open in their efforts to maintain the racial inequalities and their social hegemonies. If they benefitted so much from primacy of whiteness, why should they give it up?

    Again, Bruno thinks that people are treated well or not based on their actions, so of course he wasn't going to perceive racism unless it was overt.  And most of the time he proved his point, like when he and Brian were asking for help in the parking lot, Brian just felt like any interaction that fell short of fawning politeness from a white person was due to racism and again, that's ridiculous.

    Carmen is a totally different issue, she was looking for racism on every corner and of course would find it.  In the country bar, there are several possible reasons for the tension, one of which is racism, but it could've been due to them just not being part of the group, not being local, it wasn't a place they'd normally go even as whites and it could've been that they stuck out because of that also.  I've walked into country bars and had everyone stop talking and stare, having 100 people silenced just because I wasn't one of their group, and I'm white, if a black woman had the same experience she'd put it down to racism, when it was very far from that.

    But that's the point, hostility from whites isn't always racism, there are always numerous explanations and yes sometimes racism is the culprit, but not always, black.white should've been making this point throughout the show but it didn't and that's partly where it failed.

    Maybe this argument would also have more validity if black.white hadn't been staged in a lot of the points, so you don't know what was a genuine reaction and what was a reaction that had been set up by the crew.  There's another thread somewhere here that tells where everything was set up for the first few episodes, mainly to show Brian and Renee being treated better in white face than as black, so it's a little difficult to argue that they truly were treated better in white face than black without knowing what was genuine. 

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  • Avatar of ItAintEazy

    ItAintEazy

    [27]May 6, 2006
    • member since: 06/11/05
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 119

    minou_chere wrote:
    I'm not accusing blacks of whining about slavery, if you look at my past posts you'll realize I've said repeatedly that the memory of slavery should be a part of your culture, you should teach your kids about past injustices, just like every other group should teach theirs to avoid complacency in the future.  So in 150 years when jewish people tell their kids about the Holocaust it'll be right, if however, they teach their children to hate Germans because of what was done to their ancestors that long ago, I'd have the same feelings.

    I'm still waiting for that evidence that blacks teach their children to hate whites.  Or is that how you interpret black aspiration for change?

    :
    It certainly wasn't a planned eradication of 100% of them, I'm not denying that some slave owners were cruel, but the majority of slaves were owned in small numbers by owners who worked alongside them.  Not to mention when you talk about the monetary value of a slave, those that owned them most often couldn't afford to be cruel to them.  Which of course is another point since only a small percentage of whites were ever slave owners, and of those less than 1% owned more than 100 slaves.  When you ask how many died in slavery you should refine that question a little more, plenty of slaves died natural deaths in slavery, not from overworking or being mistreated but just from living to the end of their life.  If you want to know how many died prematurely, I don't think that number can truly be devined, because it brings in life expectancy and the elimination of diseases that were not the fault of slave owners.  I would think that the number wouldn't be as high as you seem to think though.  Especially when you take into count the cost of a slave, which would essentially be equivalent to purchasing a car without financing in today's money, I don't know too many people who are able to do that and even less who would be careless with that car once they bought it, I would imagine it was the same with slaves, would you abuse something you couldn't replace that was essential to your family's wellbeing?

    There you go again trying to say one evil is worse than another.  Does the fact that only one percent of whites owned a large number of slaves or that slaves died "natural" deaths justify that institution?  Why do you wonder why blacks can be resentful of whites like you, when you reduce slavery to an academic exercise when it is visceral and painful to the rest of us? 

    :
    Again, I've never said it didn't have any relevance, I said it shouldn't be used as an excuse for hate and bigotry towards whites.  It also shouldn't be used as an excuse for why the black community isn't thriving.  You spend so much time defending the memory of slavery without even truly understanding what I'm saying, so again, I'll say it, a.) racism isn't just white on black, it's hate for anyone based on color, and no matter what injustices in your culture's past, there is no excuse for anger or hate towards someone strictly because of the color of their skin; b.) racism will not go away until ALL races let go of the chips on their shoulders and start treating each other with equality; c.) in the current day, it's time to start taking responsibility for your own actions, it's time to climb the ladder of success on your own and not to expect anyone to give you a helping hand.  I mean really, do you want to know you got an edge for a job because you're black?  I know as a woman I don't want that, I don't want any job I couldn't get on my own above all other applicants, using the same playing field they're using.  I don't point that just at blacks, I say the same thing about everyone, if you can't make it on your own, it's not the government's place to bail you out, at this point, everyone has access to public schools (no, not all of them are equal, but you should be able to at least get to a level to enter a college), there are thousands of colleges which offer scholarships to people with good grades and if you can't get one of those there are loans available to pretty much anyone and grants if you come from a family that's below the poverty level.  After that, it's all up to you whether you choose a major that's economically viable.  If higher education isn't for you then there are plenty of other options, but you have to accept that you're most likely going to live at a lower level of financial security and should adjust your life plans to fit that, so don't have more kids than you can afford, if an accident happens, consider adoption or try to find a relative who can support them.  These are the decisions that I would expect an adult to make, and to understand why their actions affect their future, everyone should be able to understand that concept and live by it and if you don't you should deal with the consequences of those actions rather than expect the government to bail you out, regardless of your skin color.

    There it is again. Asking for change and understanding is now called "hate and bigotry" and then you contradict yourself  by obliquely accusing blacks of not being responsible or industrious enough.  And don't feed me that BS about the government not being supposed to help out people.  Look up the history of the VA programs and FHA loans of the immediate post-war era, how it effectively created the white middle class you enjoy today and how it was almost completely off-limits to blacks and tell me again with a straight face how the government cannot undue the racial inequalities it created.

    :
    I say some blacks are racists, but that it's tolerated and accepted among the community rather than met with uproar as it should be, by still hating whites you're essentially saying, it's wrong to hate us because of our skin color but it's right for me to hate you for yours, where does that make any sense?  I've minimized the validity of using slavery as an excuse, not the legacy of slavery which I think should be very important in keeping future generations aware of their culture and as for ignoring the problems of racism today, what do you think you're doing?  You only see it from your point of view, you see what you've gone through in your life and what your community has gone through and seem to think that whites live in the land of milk and honey that we're all rich and powerful and have never dealt with any kind of problem in our life, which frankly, is ridiculous.

    Do you really want to count off all the white racists that enjoy support among whites? In any case, protesting a Klan rally is not going to bring any substantive change, and in your obsession with these nebulous "black racists" that don't have any power to effect any type of societal change,  you are just creating a convenient excuse for the persistence of the racial inequalities.  And I think we've seen too many examples on the show where there are whites that may not be all that rich and powerful, but they erect and are proud of the barriers to blacks and other minorities.

    :
    Of course it was staged to create conflict, it's a tv show, without conflict there are no ratings.  But the whole point was how Renee reacted, she held onto that for the entire length of the show, it came up in every episode, and there was obviously never a discussion about it.  And again, how do you read one thing and interpret another?  How does a stereotypical image (which I think most people would agree exists) equal me thinking that someone doesn't have a right to ever feel that way?  Of course anyone has a right to feel angry or frustrated, if it's a justifiable reason, how was Renee's reaction to the "b*tch" comment justifiable?  If Carmen had turned around and said "well you are a b*tch" then I'd say she had a right, but that never happened, so to me the reaction was overblown.

    But instead of Renee being insensitive it was some "angry black woman." Needless to say I have more problem with yor depersonifying than with Renee's contrived drama over that word.

    :
    Again, Bruno thinks that people are treated well or not based on their actions, so of course he wasn't going to perceive racism unless it was overt.  And most of the time he proved his point, like when he and Brian were asking for help in the parking lot, Brian just felt like any interaction that fell short of fawning politeness from a white person was due to racism and again, that's ridiculous.

    Carmen is a totally different issue, she was looking for racism on every corner and of course would find it.  In the country bar, there are several possible reasons for the tension, one of which is racism, but it could've been due to them just not being part of the group, not being local, it wasn't a place they'd normally go even as whites and it could've been that they stuck out because of that also.  I've walked into country bars and had everyone stop talking and stare, having 100 people silenced just because I wasn't one of their group, and I'm white, if a black woman had the same experience she'd put it down to racism, when it was very far from that.

    Sorry, Carmen's reaction to the treatment she received did not reveal that she has felt that kind of automatic hostility before.  And for Bruno not to pick that up simply reveals his willfulness not to face the facts.

    :
    But that's the point, hostility from whites isn't always racism, there are always numerous explanations and yes sometimes racism is the culprit, but not always, black.white should've been making this point throughout the show but it didn't and that's partly where it failed.

    Maybe this argument would also have more validity if black.white hadn't been staged in a lot of the points, so you don't know what was a genuine reaction and what was a reaction that had been set up by the crew.  There's another thread somewhere here that tells where everything was set up for the first few episodes, mainly to show Brian and Renee being treated better in white face than as black, so it's a little difficult to argue that they truly were treated better in white face than black without knowing what was genuine.

    I can agree with that.  I think a better reality show would have been the one on ABC called "Welcome to the Neighborhood"  where a bunch of white families living in a gated cul-de-sac are tasked with choosing among a family of blacks, Latinos, Asians, a gay couple with an adopted baby, and a tattooed couple, gets to live in a house among them.  That show shows how well ingrained the racial and cultural differences are in this country, how far we need to go, and truly which side holds the chips in terms of reform.

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  • Avatar of minou_chere

    minou_chere

    [28]Jun 2, 2006
    • member since: 09/15/05
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 28
    [QUOTE="ItAintEazy"]

    I'm still waiting for that evidence that blacks teach their children to hate whites.  Or is that how you interpret black aspiration for change?[/quote/]

    I'm not sure if you'll ever read this as it's been so long since your post, but here goes:

    Obviously there's no scientific evidence, that blacks teach their children to hate whites, but there is physical evidence that it happens.  First of all I don't want to say that all blacks hate whites because that would just be silly, but in my personal experience I've encountered a large number of black people who have hated me (or at least stongly disliked me) from hello, when the usual reaction from other people is the exact opposite; while some of those people may have hated anyone it doesn't account for all of them.  The only reasonable explanation would be something physical about myself, the most blantant of which would be being white.  I've had several black friends over the years, and the discussion has come up that they had preconceptions of a. what I was like and b. what I thought they were like, neither of which were very positive.  Now, obviously this is only based on personal experience, but I find it hard to believe that I have encountered the only people of the entire black race that felt like that, especially as I have heard it repeated time and time again among my white friends.  This has happened from the time I was a child until the present day, and while you might say the adults are acting based on their experiences in life, what else would account for a child having that automatic judgement except having been taught that by their parents?  

    [QUOTE="ItAintEazy"]

    There you go again trying to say one evil is worse than another.  Does the fact that only one percent of whites owned a large number of slaves or that slaves died "natural" deaths justify that institution?  Why do you wonder why blacks can be resentful of whites like you, when you reduce slavery to an academic exercise when it is visceral and painful to the rest of us?[/quote/]

    I was responding to your comparison of slavery to the holocaust, while both instances are examples of humanity at its worst, it's my opinion that to compare the two as equal is ridiculous.  In one instance a government set out to kill an entire race of people, they devised tortures that are almost unimaginable with the only intent of exterminating these people.  They did use some of them for work and some of them in medical experiments, but the end goal was the same, the death of those people, thusly they worked the people with little food and no sympathy for injuries, if you were hurt you were exterminated.  In the other scenario you have a practice of using people as essentially farm equipment, it was a practice that had been used for thousands of years and wasn't viewed as being cruel by society as a whole.  The majority of slave owners actually worked alongside their slaves, as they usually only had one or two, they were given food and clothing in order to make them more productive and a roof over their heads.  If they were hurt, a doctor attended them, as as long as they were unable to work the owner was losing money.  The worst thing that could happen to an injured slave would be to be sold.  The statistic of people who owned slaves in large numbers is to show that there weren't very many people who had enough money to not protect their investment by mistreating their slaves.  I'm not saying all slave owners were saints, but they also weren't all abusive, most thought of the slaves as a valuable asset to their farm and were very unlikely to risk hurting that asset.  On some of the larger plantations there were cruel overseers and cruel owners, yes, but the percentage would have been small, not exactly an equal situation to people forced to work 16 hour days on an 800 calorie meal and if they were hurt they'd be shot on the way home.  You brought up the number of deaths caused by slavery, my response was merely to say that you can't know what was caused by slavery and what was natural, again in direct opposition to the holocaust where every death was unnatural.  Slaves suffered a great injustice in being denied their freedom, but to compare their plight to that of a group who suffered a great injustice in being denied their lives is a little egotistical.

    [QUOTE="ItAintEazy"] There it is again. Asking for change and understanding is now called "hate and bigotry" and then you contradict yourself  by obliquely accusing blacks of not being responsible or industrious enough.  And don't feed me that BS about the government not being supposed to help out people.  Look up the history of the VA programs and FHA loans of the immediate post-war era, how it effectively created the white middle class you enjoy today and how it was almost completely off-limits to blacks and tell me again with a straight face how the government cannot undue the racial inequalities it created.[/quote/]

    No, asking for change and understanding is admirable, demanding something you haven't worked for and respect you haven't earned and blaming someone for your situation because of the color of their skin is hate and bigotry.  And no, the government isn't supposed to give hand outs, in the history of our country the government has stepped in to bail its people out in times of trouble, i.e. welfare after the depression, low interest loans being created as a perk for veterans after WWII.  While both of those reforms may have initially benefitted mainly whites that certainly isn't the case today.  And again, you're asking for justification from today for past injustices.  I've never denied that in the past blacks were treated unfairly, of course so were asian people, latino people, women and every other minority, if you weren't a white male you weren't treated with respect.  It was needed to fight the injustices when they were so obvious, you had to push your way in the door to get a fighting chance. Now that you've gotten the chance you're still yelling about the past injustices, no one gets to completely undo the wrongs done to them by past generations, you have to take the advantages you've been handed and work with what you've got. 

    ItAintEazy wrote:
    Do you really want to count off all the white racists that enjoy support among whites? In any case, protesting a Klan rally is not going to bring any substantive change, and in your obsession with these nebulous "black racists" that don't have any power to effect any type of societal change,  you are just creating a convenient excuse for the persistence of the racial inequalities.  And I think we've seen too many examples on the show where there are whites that may not be all that rich and powerful, but they erect and are proud of the barriers to blacks and other minorities.

    You say that like there are millions of white racists, in my experience there are very few true racists, mainly ignorant and uneducated people who either were raised to be that way or are looking for a scapegoat to explain why they are where they are.  Black racists usually fit into these groups as well, although I've been consistantly surprised by that same attitude being present among educated and affluant blacks.  I've never said the black racists can affect a societal change either, only that the perpetuation of racism by either group only signifies to create more racism, the more you hate me, the less respect I have for you the more likely I am to develop a preconception against blacks, you see the pattern?

    ItAintEazy wrote:
    But instead of Renee being insensitive it was some "angry black woman." Needless to say I have more problem with yor depersonifying than with Renee's contrived drama over that word.

    There is a stereotype of the "angry black woman", while Renee might not normally fit this image she allowed her inability to let go of the incident portray her as someone who does.  We can't deny the stereotypes that exist, and that when someone seems to fit that stereotype we're going to associate them with it (i.e. the bad chinese woman driver, the angry black woman, the passionate latina, the cold white woman), Renee wasn't being insisitive, Carmen was, Renee was overreacting and creating drama where there was none, whether it's right or not most people are going to view her as that stereotypical image.

    ItAintEazy wrote:
    Sorry, Carmen's reaction to the treatment she received did not reveal that she has felt that kind of automatic hostility before.  And for Bruno not to pick that up simply reveals his willfulness not to face the facts.

    This is again the kind of thing I wished the show would have addressed more as a difference between how whites and blacks perceive things.  I wish the show had been more scientific in that they recreated every instance in both white and black makeup to show the differences, but as it was out to create drama that would've been defeating.  You can't know that it was racism until you see how those people would have reacted to just Carmen and Bruno as whites...so you can't say one way or another, I was merely pointing out that there were other possibilities besides out and out racism.

    ItAintEazy wrote:
    I can agree with that.  I think a better reality show would have been the one on ABC called "Welcome to the Neighborhood"  where a bunch of white families living in a gated cul-de-sac are tasked with choosing among a family of blacks, Latinos, Asians, a gay couple with an adopted baby, and a tattooed couple, gets to live in a house among them.  That show shows how well ingrained the racial and cultural differences are in this country, how far we need to go, and truly which side holds the chips in terms of reform.

    I never saw the show, maybe it was a better compass, but it doesn't sound as though they gave the families any choices in terms of not being biased, several white families choosing a new neighbor, regardless of who they choose the other people will feel the victims of some sort of bias and feel as though the whites have the "chips" for reform.  A less angled idea would be to have several neighborhoods with one ethnicity choose from the same group of peole and see the reactions, I'd think you would find the same bias existed among everyone.

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