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TV Tokyo (ended 2012)

Bleach Tournament!!!! Championship...Aizen vs. Yamamoto (SPOILERS probably)

Who would win this fight?

  • Avatar of SsriTelQuessir

    SsriTelQuessir

    [161]Mar 7, 2009
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    One thing to, perhaps, bare in mind when making comparisons with Ichigo, is that Ichigo is not an even-keel. His ability and power fluctuate to what seems to me to be an order of magnitude or two. Case in point, I think of the Ichigo/Byakuya and the Ichigo/Kenpachi fights. There was only one point before the hollow took over that Ichigo dominated the fight, and that was at the first moment of of his bankai and he put the tip of his sword to Byakuya's neck. The second time Ichigo tried that, Byakuya caught Ichigo's sword in his hand. Sure, he was cut, but why didn't Ichigo's sword reach it's mark? (I'm pretty sure he wasn't aiming for Byakuya's hand) I speculate that it's because Byakuya isn't a complete wanker. Ichigo then slowed, stumbled, had a kido through the chest and a sword in the foot. He's a gonner at that point. Without the hollow to pump some life and engery back into him, Bleach would have been a short, Seinen anime, ending the death of Rukia and everybody else, having a subtext of the fulitility of exisitance. Now, consider the Kenpachi fight. Without his hollow...at least indirectly, as he made a show in the inner world...Ichigo is able to defeat, so to speak, Kenpachi. Now, Ichigo is suposed to be much more powerful now. But he was easily defeted, injured though he was, by Nnoitra...even Tesla, the arrancar form Renji...gave Ichigo the smack-down. Nnoitra was tough enough to force Kenpachi to use a little technique. And when Kenpachi used a two-handed technique, he took out a fully released Nnoitra with a single hit. Now, Ichigo defeted both Byakuya and Kenpachi. However, does he win against them 10 times out of 10? I think not, because he is not maxed out 10 times out of 10. Remember too, Ichigo got o(p)wned by that Bount dude who was in turn o(p)wned by Toshiro, often speculated as the weakest of the captains.

    So, I take with a gain of salt any argument along the lines of _______ is tougher than Ichigo who is tougher than _______, so thereful _______ is tougher than _______.

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    LordMordor

    [162]Mar 7, 2009
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    i agree that Ichigo only really dominated the fight when he initially released and took max advantage of his bankai's speed (which is body couldn't handle, thus the slowness later). But he was still dominating the fight up until that point. Ichigo wasn't directly fighting to kill Byakuya, only to prove his views wrong and save Rukia. He paused before delivering that 2nd attack on Kuchiki, giving him enough time to deflect it to some degree.

    I also agree that using Ichigo as a measuring stick is a little tricky considering how much his power fluctuates. But I think most will agree that Ichigo is a great deal stronger now that he was during the Byakuya fight, and Ulquiorra so far has shown himself to be LEAGUES more powerful than Ichigo.

    Byakuya does not have the capability to match Ichigo's rapid power increase, so there is no way he could have gotten powerful enough to even begin to match Ulquiorra. I know that many times A > B and B > C, therefore A > C logic doesn't work for character battles...but in this case I think the power gap is significant enough that it does

    and sorry to nitpick, but Ichigo wasn't just injured during his brief fight with Nnoitra and Tesla, he was flat out thrashed. He just got finished with an exhausting battle with Grimmjow, only for Nnoitra to pummel him for a while before finally sicking a released Tesla on him. Far to much of a handicap for those fights to be taken seriously. And the bount character is filler, they can do whatever they want with character power levels during those.
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  • Avatar of SsriTelQuessir

    SsriTelQuessir

    [163]Mar 7, 2009
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    Don't appologize for nitpicking...that was my minor as an undergrad. One can also argue, too, that Nnoitra was injured by Neliel before he fought Kenpachi. But given how badly Kenpachi took out Nnoitra, I don't think his earlier injuries played a part. Now, back to Ichigo, Ichigo struggled pretty badly against Grimmjow, up until the Orihime gave him what has to be the single worst cheer in the history of the world: 'Don't die'. Could a healthy Ichigo have done as well against a Nnoitra whom I have to assume is at least a little stronger than Grimmjow - I mean, Aizen's mathmatics can't be any worse than mine. Had Kenpachi started-off with his two handed form, his fight with Nnoitra would have been the shortest in the Bleach universe. Which brings us back to this circular argument...I am reminded of the Big 12 Football this season...Texas Tech beat Texas who beat Oklahoma who beat Texas Tech.

    Which now begs the question, why doesn't Bleach have the BCS? We could have strength of schedule, quality of victory, and ranking in the polls - at least for the arrancar...to determine the winner.

    Holy crap, I need to get some sleep.

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    Ranemoraken

    [164]Mar 8, 2009
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    Well, Ichigo was winning his fight until he unnecessarily threw himself in the way of an attack by Grimmjaw that injured him severely to save Orihime. I guess he didn't realize the strength of her power until later...

    But I don't think this is too much of an issue, Black Cero is greater than Byakuya's mass bankai. Ichigo took a direct hit in shikai state and survived unaccosted. Byakuya couldn't even kill renji. I like the man, but the newer villains are stronger than the old ones.
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    LordMordor

    [165]Mar 8, 2009
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    to be fair to Byakuya, it was Renji...I don't think he was trying that hard.

    another point though, in Bankai, Ichigo was only able to land a single hit, and it barely scratched Ulquiorra's hierro. If Zangetsu couldn't cut through it, i have my doubts that Senbonzakura's smaller scattered blades would have much effect
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    peaceknuckle

    [166]Mar 9, 2009
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    Ulquiorra wins that round. The next matchup, I'm sorry to say,is probably going to be almost pure speculation. It's the true "Last Quincy", Ishida Ryuuken, taking on the 2nd Espada, Barrigan Luisenbarn. Who wins?
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    could107

    [167]Mar 9, 2009
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    I say Barrigan just because I specuale taht barrigan is stronger the Ulquiorra and I know Ulquiorra is stronger then Ryuuken.
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    LordMordor

    [168]Mar 9, 2009
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    your correct in that its almost pure speculation. Id say Barragan would likely have an edge, but there is one thing that concerns me that could give Ryuuken a very real shot...Quincy Final Form.

    Under normal circumstances, assuming Ulquiorras rank as 4th Espada is correct, I'd give Barragan a heavy advantage. But Uryu was at a heavy disadvantage against Mayuri, and once he entered Final Form completely destroyed him. If Final form can give that kind of power boost at Uryu's level, im really interested in what i would do to Ryuuken, could it possibibly put him on the level of the top Espada?

    Overall, im putting my vote on Barragan. Even if Final Form puts Ryuuken on an even playing field, or even gives him an advantage, it doesn't last long and in the end leaves him helpless. So if he doesn't win during that time frame, he won't be able to beat anyone..(well, maybe Renji)
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    could107

    [169]Mar 9, 2009
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    For final form don't you need the glove?
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    Llama_guy

    [170]Mar 9, 2009
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    could107 wrote:
    For final form don't you need the glove?
    'tis what I thought too. And that got destroyed =P
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  • Avatar of LordMordor

    LordMordor

    [171]Mar 9, 2009
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    im working under the assumption that Ryuuken has all the tools he possibly can have at his disposal. Maybe they have other gloves lying around or something, and considering Ryuuken's level, i wouldn't be surprised if he mastered it as well.

    in either case though, without Final form i can't see Ryuuken having any kind of advantage. Speaking of which...I do wish they had allowed the Final form more use, it was really cool and was pretty much Uryu's shining moment. If he still had acces to it Uryu could have stayed as more of a rival to Ichigo, rather than being demoted to side-kick.

    Edited on 03/09/2009 2:20pm
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    lstinwonderland

    [172]Mar 9, 2009
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    Well if speculations are correct about the top 3/4 being Vasto Lorde, I just don't see Ryuuken winning even with some special Quincy gear. My vote is going for Number 2 Espada
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    SsriTelQuessir

    [173]Mar 9, 2009
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    Wow, not really sure about this one. I know very little about Ryuuken, but his comment to Uryuu was something like, "I have no interst and you have no talent". I think too that he said that he, himelf, was the last heir of the Quincy. Maybe that is just big talk, maybe he can back it up. I have no idea what Barrigan's power is. Sure, he's touch, sure he's strong. My gut tells me that Ryuuken takes this one.

    Remember, the giants beat the patriots.

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    talimgirl

    [174]Mar 9, 2009
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    My vote goes to Ryuuken. He has to be the "last" Quincy for a reason. His powers aren't as easy to lose as Uryuu's and he took out a Menos in one shot (I think it was a menos). Another difficult match-up.
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    YoruichiMeow

    [175]Mar 9, 2009
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    I'm voting Ryuuken too. Yes, Uryuu's below Ichigo in raw power, but Uryuu's much better at strategy than Ichigo. Ryuuken's probably even better than his son and probably more powerful, which might not be sufficient in a match against Barragan...but I'm guessing it would be a close match at the very least, and that Ryuuken is probably powerful enough to take this one. Pure speculation, yay.
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    peaceknuckle

    [176]Mar 10, 2009
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    I really wanted to vote for Ryuuken, I think he's going to end up being very powerful. The Last Quincy has to have some meaning behind it, plus like someone else said, he doesn't seem to think Uryuu has any kind of power at all, he seemed pretty relaxed and composed when he was training Uryuu. I wanted to vote for him, but Barrigan is the number two espada, it has been implied that he is a king of some kind, and commands respect from the other espada. Maybe I'm still kind of shell shocked by Ulquiorra's power, but if Barrigan is more powerful than Ulquiorra, I don't think Ryuuken is going to be that powerful.
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    peaceknuckle

    [177]Mar 12, 2009
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    Barrigan eliminates the last Quincy. Next matchup is Stark vs. Lisa.

    Stark the primera Espada, numero uno will take on Yadamarou Lisa, the former Vice Captain of squad 8, and current Vaizard. Shunsui seemed pretty confident in Lisa's pre Vaizard abilities, and she held her own while training Ichigo's hollow. Can she possibly be good enough to take out the Top of the line Espada, Stark. Who wins?

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    YoruichiMeow

    [178]Mar 12, 2009
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    Even though we haven't seen Stark or Lisa's full power and the outcome of this match is speculative, I'm gonna go with Stark. We haven't really seen a vizard at full power yet, but I assume most of the known vizards are stronger right now than Ichigo. Assuming that, I'm still not sure a former vice-captain could take out the number one Espada, even if she is a fully leveled-up vizard.
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    totallyaninja

    [179]Mar 12, 2009
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    Primera Espada. I believe that's saying enough.
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    could107

    [180]Mar 12, 2009
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    totallyaninja wrote:
    Primera Espada. I believe that's saying enough.
    2nded
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