Caprica Forums

Syfy (ended 2010)

Shooting Caesar?

  • Avatar of aidorrocks

    aidorrocks

    [21]Jul 17, 2010
    • member since: 08/28/07
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 302
    Helostwin wrote:

    We're talking about TEENAGERS not little kids. Just make it appropriate for 14 & 15 year olds. A lot of them watch it. You never heard BSG being discussed in hallways & homerooms, but before the hiatus you DID hear CAPRICA being discussed in the hallway & in homeroom & during lunch in the caf. So they DO watch it.


    i'm not doubting that they do watch it, but what i'm saying is that they shouldn't be. the fact that there are adult themes automatically says that its not suitable for that age group. it's not the writers job to change the plot/script based on the audience. it's they're job to tell a story to the best of their ability. what should be done if anything, is the parents of these teens should be monitoring what their children are watching & telling them not to. or possibly the network should post a message at the start of each ep telling the audience that it's for mature viewers & shouldn't be viewed by minors. i notice you didn't address my other points, so i will clarify this one & ask you for a response.

    the film "kids"

    summary:

    Kids follows a group young, unsupervised, not mature, but all-too-grown-up kids in New York. One girl has just been diagnosed with HIV and is trying to notify the boy who gave it to her, who is on a quest to sexually prey upon innocent girls. The film follows these characters and their friends through the day, hanging out, playing, carousing, and going to parties. Each scene is intriguing and disturbing -- conveying an urban reality that includes drugs, sex, guns, and disease; and yet never letting you forget these are *kids*, some of them barely in puberty.

    this film is about teenagers. but by no means does this mean it is meant for teens to watch. it is an adult orientated film with themes of drug abuse, sex & sexually transmitted disease. if teens everywhere decided they wanted to watch it, is it up to the writers/editors/directors or producers to re-edit the film & make it suitable for them. should they cut out all the inappropriate scenes? there wouldn't be much of a film left if they did. so to me the answer lies with either the parents doing their job & governing watch their children watch, the shop that sells/rents the film not selling it to minors or the tv channel broadcasting a "for mature viewers only" message at the start.

    i just literally cannot fathom how you believe that writers should change the plot & direction of their story just because people who shouldn't be watching it are watching it.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Helostwin

    Helostwin

    [22]Jul 17, 2010
    • member since: 11/12/06
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 2,521
    MY point is I think SyFy Channel is deliberately making Caprica attractive to teens by filling it with teenage characters,not just one or two but nearly half the cast at one point. They are doing this to boost viewership. But they do not make the program suitable for the younger viewers they are deliberately attracting. All they care about is the numbers.

    And yes I am familiar with "Kids." I understand it created quite a controversy when it came out because it was so realistic in it's portrayal of that generation (the teens in it are in their 30s now). I also know that many theaters refused to show it at the time. Howe & Strauss wrote about it in 2 of their Sociology texts & in their book "Generations" as an excellent portrait of a mistreated generation in a child-hating time period.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of aidorrocks

    aidorrocks

    [23]Jul 19, 2010
    • member since: 08/28/07
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 302
    Helostwin wrote:
    MY point is I think SyFy Channel is deliberately making Caprica attractive to teens by filling it with teenage characters,not just one or two but nearly half the cast at one point. They are doing this to boost viewership. But they do not make the program suitable for the younger viewers they are deliberately attracting. All they care about is the numbers.

    And yes I am familiar with "Kids." I understand it created quite a controversy when it came out because it was so realistic in it's portrayal of that generation (the teens in it are in their 30s now). I also know that many theaters refused to show it at the time. Howe & Strauss wrote about it in 2 of their Sociology texts & in their book "Generations" as an excellent portrait of a mistreated generation in a child-hating time period.


    the start of your comment really says it all: "i think syfy..."

    this is just your opinion. there is no proof that that is their plan. can you show me any interviews with any of the creators where they say they are aiming it at that audience? you *think* that because they have put teens in the show that it is aimed at teens. my point was just because there are teens doesn't mean it is for teens (see my "kids" point)

    the plan has been to make a mature scifi/soap opera style show to the best of their ability and they've done that. just because teens watch it, doesn't & shouldn't mean that a writer/producer should change their entire gameplan just to suit that portion of an audience who've decided to watch something that wasn't meant for them.

    again you never answered my question. if a load of teens all decided they wanted to watch the film "kids" should the film be edited to remove the parts that aren't suitable for them? or should they be told not to watch it because it's not suitable for them?

    i only ask because you seem to think if a show has (half a cast of) teens in it, it must be aimed at teens. well the majority of the cast in "kids" consists of teenagers. does this mean it's aimed at teens too? surely not.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of aidorrocks

    aidorrocks

    [24]Jul 26, 2010
    • member since: 08/28/07
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 302
    helostwin, why won't you answer my question?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Helostwin

    Helostwin

    [25]Jul 27, 2010
    • member since: 11/12/06
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 2,521
    aidorrocks wrote:
    helostwin, why won't you answer my question?


    Because I'm tired of going back & forth on this. You are never going to convince me, I'm obviously never going to convince you so the discussion is a waste of time.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of aidorrocks

    aidorrocks

    [26]Jul 27, 2010
    • member since: 08/28/07
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 302
    Helostwin wrote:
    aidorrocks wrote:
    helostwin, why won't you answer my question?


    Because I'm tired of going back & forth on this. You are never going to convince me, I'm obviously never going to convince you so the discussion is a waste of time.


    i don't want to convince you, do you want to convince me? is that why you posted this thread, to convince people?

    i just want an answer to my question.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of kanniballl

    kanniballl

    [27]Sep 1, 2010
    • member since: 07/02/03
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 3,312

    Caprica is not a kid's show. Heck, the Battlestar Galactica remake wasn't a flippin' kid's show.


    The recent BSG remake had..


    - A lot of overt sex


    - Sexual assault


    - Implied child... The one with the black market apparently implied underage kids and adolescents forced to do some real bad stuff.


    - Violence out the eye balls


    - Morally ambiguous scenarios




    This is not your Lorne Green's Battlestar Galactica universe.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Helostwin

    Helostwin

    [28]Sep 1, 2010
    • member since: 11/12/06
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 2,521
    KENNIBALLL--- that is not my point. It might not be a kids show but huge numbers of kids watch it. You can't populate a program with a dozen 13-15 year old characters & think otherwise. The writers shouls write accordingly. Beer isn't meant for kid either, that doesn't mean High School kids don't use it.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of kanniballl

    kanniballl

    [29]Sep 1, 2010
    • member since: 07/02/03
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 3,312

    Helostwin wrote:
    KENNIBALLL--- that is not my point. It might not be a kids show but huge numbers of kids watch it. You can't populate a program with a dozen 13-15 year old characters & think otherwise. The writers shouls write accordingly. Beer isn't meant for kid either, that doesn't mean High School kids don't use it.


    Check their listings on IMDB. Even the young characters are past 20. My impression the characters were high schoolers 16-18, but I could be wrong.


    Granted, the young Admiral Adama is a kid but all of the main players are already college age.



    They aren't advertising it as a high school drama like Edgmont, Smallville, etc. It's about the creation of a race, the beginning of a string of events that leads to the genocide of billions. Even the commercials aren't showing shiny/happy students arguing about prom, but of mature stuff.


    I believe it airs at 9PM. At 9PM is when the more mature and graphic content shows air. Family Guy, Supernatural, quite a bit.
    - Smallville had 20-somethings playing high school students and their was some odd content (teacher/student relationships, assault, etc).
    - Supernatural had them starting in their college years and had a lot of adult content.
    - Family Guy and the Cleveland Show are quite adult, and they are cartoons (so more directed at kids).



    You mention beer, there are a lot of commercials with young 20-year-olds drinking it up. Heck, most of the cleavage girls in those commercials are that age. And with the beer analogy, it's not meant for them so whose fault is it when they get drunk?


    They aren't making a Joe Camel cigarette, it's a mature show on later in the evening starring 20-somethings.



    ALLof that being said, American TV is a fair amount more violent that other countries. Then again other countries also have more raunchy material.

    Edited on 09/01/2010 9:25pm
    Edited 6 total times.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Helostwin

    Helostwin

    [30]Sep 2, 2010
    • member since: 11/12/06
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 2,521
    KANNIBALL---The actors who play Zoe, Ben,Lacy, Emmanuelle, Darius (the kid who led Lacy to the underground), Philomon & the kid who guided Adama in the gameworld do NOT appear to be in their 20s. I haven't had time to look them up however since your post so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now. In any case they PORTRAY 15 year olds (and the young Admiral is supposed to be 12) so adolescents watch the program to follow them. If you don't think so drop into a 10th grade homeroom sometime.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Helostwin

    Helostwin

    [32]Sep 5, 2010
    • member since: 11/12/06
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 2,521
    kanniballl wrote:

    Caprica is not a kid's show. Heck, the Battlestar Galactica remake wasn't a flippin' kid's show.


    The recent BSG remake had..


    - A lot of overt sex


    - Sexual assault


    - Implied child... The one with the black market apparently implied underage kids and adolescents forced to do some real bad stuff.


    - Violence out the eye balls


    - Morally ambiguous scenarios




    This is not your Lorne Green's Battlestar Galactica universe.



    I didn't say it was a kids show. It's not. But the writers must be cognizent of the fact that hordes of teens (who didn't watch BSG) are watching Caprica because of it's adolescent cast.

    This nonsense about "a writers vision" is just that -- nonsense. It's completely irrelevant. Writers are dime-a-dozen hired hacks. A shows only purpose is to produce revenue, for it's network and for it's commercial advertisers. The writers better fit their "vision" to what the viewers want to see or they will soon be on the unemployment line ( the "dole que" for those of you across the pond).
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of hasconero

    hasconero

    [33]Sep 8, 2010
    • member since: 04/09/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 6

    Helostwin, I think you're over reacting.
    Has it ever occured to you the fact that the gun was loaded with blanks is a sign that the writers DO have their audience in mind?
    Live ammo would have been way more shocking and effective to showDaniel's desperation and Zoe's mindset and determination.
    But I'm sure the writers realised that would be over the top, considering theaudience.
    Plus, the Zoe character would have lost all sympathy from the viewers, what obviously is a big no-no.


    The fact that, according to you, mostly teenagers watch this show or the cast seems to be teenagers, does notnecessarily make them the intended audience. I'm pretty sure it's just as well meant for 30-something guys like me, who just enjoy a well-written SF show and don't care if the cast is in its teens, 20s or 30s.


    By the way, I don't see you complain about the fact that,for a second, we were lead to believe that Lacyblew upSister Clarice's car with her and hers in it.When in fact it's pretty much the same situation Zoe was in, with the same type of misdirection. Or was that less shocking to you becauseyou saw that one coming or because that involved humans?


    Furthermore, I find yourearlier comment that writers are all just hired hacks is very ignorant and insulting to the excellent writers out that are out there. It shows you're willing to say anything, even BS, trying to get your point across. It's pathetic. If writersalways had to keep their 'fragile' teenage audience from anything violent, gory or shocking,Buffy the Vampire Slayer -to name anexample- would never have been such a hit. I'm not at all saying that writers should just write anything. I don't care much for unnecessarily violent,gory or shocking scenes. But if they serve a purpose, as in the 'Ceasar scene', I'm all for it. I thought it was a good 'moment of truth' scene.


    I know this post is just my humble opinion, but so is yours and I do notandwill not agree with it.




    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Helostwin

    Helostwin

    [34]Sep 8, 2010
    • member since: 11/12/06
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 2,521
    HASCONERO:
    First you make a good point about the blanks. Second I didn't say that MOSTLY teenagers watch the show & I DIDN'T say that teens were it's intended audience. What I said )(or attempted to say) is that the show is very popular among teens even if they are not it's intended audience. The people responsible for CAPRICA should realize that adolescents naturally flock to any program that has a lot of characters their age in it. Whether it's meant for them or not is irrelevant, they are watching it regardless. If you don't think so wait until it comes back on & then drop by a high school the following Monday and listen to the conversations. You never heard kids talk about BSG, but they all know Caprica.

    REgarding Sr Claire I don't think kids would react the same to that as they would to seeing someone shooting a pet. Kids see cars blowing up all the time in games movies & on TV, they don't see a pet being killed. Most 14 or 15 year olds wouldn't blink at a car blowing up it's such an entertainment staple but they would be horrified at a PET being killed. After all most kids have pets.

    My comment about writers is not "BS." There are some people on here who go on about "the writers vision" as if it was something sancrocant. The only purpose of a TV show is to sell toothpaste or cars or breakfast cereal. The writers job is to attract a large number viewers so the ratings are high so the network can charge advertisers more for their commercials and sell more toothpaste,cars and cereal. If the writers don't pull in enough viewers to satisfy the advertisers then they are replaced with other writers who write what the viewers want to see ( not what the writers "vision" is) or the program gets cancelled & everyone involved loses their job. That's the way it works. Writers "vision" means nothing. Maybe you don't understand market capitalism or don't have it where you live but writers "vision" is what is BS, not what I said. If you think anything other than money matters to SyFy ( or to any other network) you're deceiving yourself. Writers are nothing but hired wage-slaves and their "vision" counts for nothing in the overall picture.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of hasconero

    hasconero

    [35]Sep 9, 2010
    • member since: 04/09/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 6

    Helostwin wrote:
    Writers "vision" means nothing. Writers are nothing but hired wage-slaves and their "vision" counts for nothing in the overall picture.


    Wow. Are you completely mental? I'm sure that people like Joss Whedon disagree. But I guess their opinions won't matter either, seeing as you seem to have the all mighty, high horse point of view. You treat all writers the same. That's ignorant.


    Funny how you are complaining about writers only intend to sell stuff and when one actually writes something original, bold and -might I say- excellent that does not fit in that category, you get all whiny about it. So what do you want? They can't seem to please you.

    You keep saying that kids in high school are talking about Caprica. What are they saying then, exactly? Cos the people I've talked to so far about Caprica, including teens, all thought the Ceasar scene was incredibly well done, in fact the best scene in the episode. They loved the misdirection and the intensity of it. Stop projecting your own feelings of displeasure on others, please.

    So a lot of teens watch the show. Probably the same teens that cheer whenever they make a 'headshot' playing Gears of War or shoot a pack of dogs playing Call of Duty or Fallout 3. Or don't they talk about video games in high school? They know games aren't real and guess what? Neither is Caprica. And they know that too. I wonder how many of those fragile high school teens after seeing the Ceasar scene, ran to their pet, hugged it crying and sobbing "Oh Fluffy, I'm so glad that wasn't you in that horrific scene! Caprica has me all traumatised now."
    Anybody on this forum thinks that sounds likely?

    Please. Teens can handle it. I'm sure they're the first to agree that they can. I actually told a few about your post here, and they started laughing. One said "Hey, if I can handle watching the vet putting my dog to sleep because of cancer in real life, I think I can handle one NOTdying on tv."
    And I guess that about sums it up regarding the "teens watching issue".

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Helostwin

    Helostwin

    [36]Sep 9, 2010
    • member since: 11/12/06
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 2,521
    I didn't say writers exist to sell stuff, I said PROGRAMMING exists to sell stuff and if the writers script doesn't attract sufficent viewers (and thus advertising)then they are replaced.

    Yes they talk about games in high school, they talk about a lot of things. They ask "did u see (fill in scene)?"

    I'm sure that kid "handled" his/her dog being put to sleep and I'm sure he/she cried for days. My condolences. I wouldn't wish that on any kid I know. Actually you have some good points, espicially about C.O.D (which I love),Gears of War & Fallout. I admit I might be a little overreacting. However some of the venom directed at me for pointing out that the almighty writers should modify what they write because kids are watching was over the top. Writers used to SELF-CENSOR and uphold certain traditional standards: years ago you could NOT show a child being injured or killed in a TV show or movie. Not because it wasn't allowed (it probably was) but because it "wasn't done." Anything does not go, or it shouldn't. Never mind "pushing the envelope" or being edgy, how about going back to upholding standards?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of hasconero

    hasconero

    [37]Sep 12, 2010
    • member since: 04/09/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 6

    My apologies if my words in my previous post seemed harsh, but saying that writers should mind what they write because kids could be watching, just irks the hell out of me. And geesh, are you gonna start every post with nitpicking over words? Are you related to Rainman or something? It still comes down to the same thing anyway. You said writer's vision doesn't mean anything. If that isn't an ignorant generalisation, I don't know what is. I am quite aware of the unfortunate commercial aspects of television series. I don't live in a commercially free bubble part of the world. But even in this commercial cesspool of a world there are writers who most definitely have a vision and are able to get it across (or at least try, with or without aconcessionhere and there) as unscathed as possible. Before some narrow minded network exec pulls the plug.


    "Did you see (fill in scene)?" Kidding me? I could have come up with that myself. What I want to know is what they are saying, because according to you, the Ceasar scene was too much, seeing as it is a popular show among teens. I hope I paraphrased you correctly, so we can dispense with the "I didn't say..." at the beginning of your next post. So...what are they saying, exactly? Give me a few real examples from what you have heard. Are they saying it was too much for them to handle? That the writers went over board? That they're not gonna watch Caprica again if stuff like this keeps happening? What?I just want to know what it is what they said that motivated you to write your first post, because something obviously did.


    The kid that lost his dog? He didn't tell me if he cried. I would have, I'm sure he has too. It's a harsh thing but he got over it, cos that's what you do in life. The world is full of screwed up situations, sh*t happens and you get over it. And I don't think it's a bad thing for kids to be confronted with that. In fact, I think it's wrong to deny it, to your kid and yourself. Therefore, I'm not a big fan of self censorship. In fact, I don't believe writers themselves are fans of it. What writer would want to limit his artistic freedom? Just give out the appropriate warning (graphic content or whatever) and recommended age beforehand and let the viewer decide.I do agree to some point, anything does not go. I mean, I'm not anxious to see a little girl getting her head blown off in close up. But I'm not against implying it, in the same way as it was done with Ceasar, as the dramatic and intense effect are crucial to the story line.


    Going back to upholding standards? Sure, nothing wrong with that. But leave that to other shows with a less unconventional setting and premise than Caprica. Come on man, this show should is made for exciting, dramatic and shocking developments. We have an SF setting with 12 worlds, well, 13 if you count V-world, different cultures, creation of a new AI life form, drug and V-world addiction...I mean, it's an ethical downward spiral out of control. It's not a series to be sugar coating things in and upholding old standards. If anything, it's for setting new ones.


    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Helostwin

    Helostwin

    [38]Sep 12, 2010
    • member since: 11/12/06
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 2,521
    From what I over heard ( I try not to evesdrop) it's a lot like the comments here >>> comments about how much they LIKED certain scenes in Fridays ep, what they think is going to happen on next week ep and of course the usual crude sexual references you would expect to hear from any group of adolescents talking. What motivated me to write that first post was thinking that it would be PARTICULARLY upsetting to kids. I admit I never heard any kid say he/she was upset by something they saw-- that come totally from MY feeling that some things on Caprica are not suitable for 14 & 15 year olds and MY knowing that kids that age watch it and MY belief that the writers went overboard in that scene. I have not heard any kid complain about it. I also was suprised by the seemingly widespread DISBELIEF of people on this forum to accept that Caprica is a popular show among teens, an attitude which blew me away.

    I think we will just have to agree to disagree on some things: for example I do believe in SELF-censorship and voluntary restraint. I DO believe in kids being innocent & enjoying childhood for as long as possible; and since some parents can't (or won't) keep them away from unsuitable stuff I think any programs creators have a sociatial obligation to self-censor. To ask them self "would I want MY 14 year old to see this scene?" Then to write appropriately. So let's just agree that we disagree on writers obligation to society and let it go at that.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of hasconero

    hasconero

    [39]Sep 15, 2010
    • member since: 04/09/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 6

    I do agree with you up to some point concerning a writer's obligation. But people watching that are not supposed to, should not be their concern. If you're writing for a young adult audience, you should not have to worry about the possibility of young kids watching. That is the parent's job. Or maybe those 14 year olds should exercise some self censorship of their own? Refrain from watching stuff that is not intended for them? But that's is not likely to happen.


    No, people have become way too comfortable with shoving responsibility into someone else's lap, in this case the writer's, in stead of taking responsibility themselves.A writers obligation should be to write a good story, the network slaps a warning on it if necessary and leave it up to the parents and possible viewers to watch it or not.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Helostwin

    Helostwin

    [40]Sep 15, 2010
    • member since: 11/12/06
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 2,521
    HASCONERO--- I agree to a point. I am all for personal responsibility but as you said you cannot expect 14 & 15 year olds to self-censor themselves and unfortunately too many parents are so selfcentered that you can't expect them to do it either. Maybe it's wrong of me to expect writers to pick up the slack. At least I hope they are AWARE that Caprica is popular ith teens and keep that in mind. So we are mostly in agreement.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.