Criminal Minds Forums

Wednesday 10:00 PM on CBSIn Season

Official discussion thread: "The Bittersweet Science" - Spoilers

  • Avatar of phf3947

    phf3947

    [1]Dec 13, 2011
    • member since: 06/06/05
    • level: 71
    • rank: Bad News Bear
    • posts: 3,516
    Please discuss "The Bittersweet Science" in this thread. This episode was written by Janine Barrois and directed by Rob Hardy.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of JessieMarie2

    JessieMarie2

    [2]Dec 14, 2011
    • member since: 07/13/11
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 18
    i didnt really like this ep. i am starting to get annoyed with the lack of profiling and we dont see as much reid but the begging where hotch met beth left a bad taste in my mouth and i didnt really care if he got a relationship in the first place ut it was just akward! and as i said b4 there wasnt any profiling! this is called CRIMINAL MINDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! also throughout the whole ep i was waiting for something to happen or some profiling or summtin! it was boaring the ep was all based around the unsub!!!!! we saw each character only 1 to 5 times! over all i thught this ep was medeocer! what do u think? oh also y was hotch and reid just standing there well the unsub was going to die! ahhhh and oh also the end made me cry which is the only thing that saved the ep bc i like when i can get attached to eps!!!!

    *also i hate to ask but it hotch sick or something bc he isnt looking good again and it scares me! or am i ther only one who thinks this!?*
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of phf3947

    phf3947

    [3]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 06/06/05
    • level: 71
    • rank: Bad News Bear
    • posts: 3,516
    Does anything else think this episode could be called The Fight: Part 2? I'm not a fan of boxing as a sport because two people beating each other up isn't entertainment IMHO, but I was eager to see the amazing Shawn Hatosy on this episode, so I didn't record it first to watch later. At least there weren't body parts laying about and no acid in eyes, and this kind of story has been done on other shows. One thing though: why was the BAU involved? Two men were bludgeoned to death in one night...wouldn't this be a case for the local LEOs. One would think the Philadelphia PD would be more than capable of dealing with this case. Did I miss the part where they called in the FBI?

    There were some nice scenes with Hotch and Beth, which were pleasant to see, and showed us another side of his personality. Rossi was there to encourage him -- that was almost like something real. And not having Emily "Dear Abby" Prentiss horn in this time was a bonus.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of evilcleo

    evilcleo

    [4]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 07/14/10
    • level: 2
    • rank: Sweat Hog
    • posts: 15

    I agree, Hotch looked kind of sick near the end. Made me wonder too. Wasn't too sure about this episode myself. Granted, the scene at the end was great and touching, nice seeing Hotch move on or attempt to, and the case was slightly different with boxing and all that. Couldn't get any pity for the unsub. I'm sorry his son is sick but he's one of those people with significant anger issues that will never listen to other people and handle things right. I felt more for Tony, his last victim. What he did was horrible but could you really blame him based on the unsub's performance and health? He had a seizure right before the match! He really wasn't a dangerous serialkiller. He was just a petty, patheticadult who can't control his temper and can't handle criticism and decided to use violence to the point of murder. Blaming everything on everyone else, refusing to take responsibility. He truly loved his son, yes but that wasn't enough to convince me he was truly a good person and sorry for what he did.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Moniquedee

    Moniquedee

    [5]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 12/23/07
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 503
    So this was not my favourite episode. I don't know why it just lacked a lot of things, I feel like there was no profiling at all. I loved to see JJ in the feild, this is the first time I feel like I see her as a profiler and not like her old position as media liason for the team. The only part that I seemed to like was at the beginning on the plane where Garcia got excited about Hotch dating, yeah to weekends off. I liked the interaction between Hotch and Beth, but I hope they will keep it to a minimum.

    I do agree that Hotch does look different, he seems a bit slimmer to me.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of CM1Fan

    CM1Fan

    [6]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 08/18/10
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 91

    This wasn't one of my favorites either. I don't like boxing, so there was a bit too much of it in this episode for me. I thought the whole plot was kind of weak. Blood lust...is this really a diagnosis for beating someone to a pulp? However, the scene at the end with the unsub saying good bye to his son and Hotch standing behind him with tears in his eyes made the whole hour worthwhile. That was a dynamite scene. As for Hotch and Beth...Give me a break. Hotch is an FBI agent and a single dad. This strange woman runs up to him says oh you're an agent, how about a date and here's my card in the sleeve of my runnibng outfit...PLEEZE! And Hotch tells Rossi...I want to be sure. This was absolutely malarkey. So out of character. I hope I never see or hear about Beth again. If you're going to have him date, please make it realistic. And earlier this season I asked the same question...is Hotch ill? He looks so gaunt. When will we see more profiling of the bad guys?

    Edited on 12/15/2011 11:54am
    Edited 2 total times.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of phf3947

    phf3947

    [7]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 06/06/05
    • level: 71
    • rank: Bad News Bear
    • posts: 3,516
    Thomas is not sick. When he went to Europe last summer to promote the show, he realized he was really out of shape. He decided to start an exercise program, eat healthy, and get back to his fighting weight. He is -- after all -- nearly 50.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of REIDFANATIC

    REIDFANATIC

    [8]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 02/23/07
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 186

    I totally agree phf3947, I detest boxing and found this a very violent episode. I think I'm not a fan of this writer's work. She also penned The Thirteenth Step which centered around violence for the sake of violence. It also centered totally around the unsubs, as did this story. We hardly saw any of the team, especially Reid. I wonder if this writer has a problem with this character as I remember in The Thirteenth Step she just had him sent back to the precinct halfway through the ep, never to be heard from again. I don't think this unsub had anything to do with bloodlust, what that huge amount of profiling led us to. Did I just say huge amount of profiling, I must have lost my mind momentarily. I think he was a spoiled man who got angry when things didn't go his way and stuck out at people. The cute little kid did nothing to dissuade me from that thought.


    I found the Beth part of the episode quite contrived, not the kind of woman I can really see Hotch with. She knew he was FBI because of his suit. Wait until she gets a load of Morgan, Reid and Rossi. Reminded me of the guy in The Tribe.


    I think I got spoiled by the episode we had last week.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of JessieMarie2

    JessieMarie2

    [9]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 07/13/11
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 18
    phf3947 wrote:
    Thomas is not sick. When he went to Europe last summer to promote the show, he realized he was really out of shape. He decided to start an exercise program, eat healthy, and get back to his fighting weight. He is -- after all -- nearly 50.


    well that explains it but i was not completly sure but at the same time he looks more than just skinny and healthy well ill hope for the best but thank you
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of JessieMarie2

    JessieMarie2

    [10]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 07/13/11
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 18
    REIDFANATIC wrote:

    I totally agree phf3947, I detest boxing and found this a very violent episode. I think I'm not a fan of this writer's work. She also penned The Thirteenth Step which centered around violence for the sake of violence. It also centered totally around the unsubs, as did this story. We hardly saw any of the team, especially Reid. I wonder if this writer has a problem with this character as I remember in The Thirteenth Step she just had him sent back to the precinct halfway through the ep, never to be heard from again. I don't think this unsub had anything to do with bloodlust, what that huge amount of profiling led us to. Did I just say huge amount of profiling, I must have lost my mind momentarily. I think he was a spoiled man who got angry when things didn't go his way and stuck out at people. The cute little kid did nothing to dissuade me from that thought.


    I found the Beth part of the episode quite contrived, not the kind of woman I can really see Hotch with. She knew he was FBI because of his suit. Wait until she gets a load of Morgan, Reid and Rossi. Reminded me of the guy in The Tribe.


    I think I got spoiled by the episode we had last week.



    i hate boxing as well! and yes were is my bot reid! i think we saw him once or maybe 2 and we didnt see the rest of the team a whole lot more! and i miss profiling as well! and the beth part left me puzzled likje i dont mind hotch dating but i doint see hotch dating someone like that but things do change and the whole part whjere i could tell by the suit give me a break! lots og guys wear suits i know of many and who the heck carried a card around well working out!
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of JessieMarie2

    JessieMarie2

    [11]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 07/13/11
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 18
    [QUOTE="CM1Fan"]

    This wasn't one of my favorites either. I don't like boxing, so there was a bit too much of it in this episode for me. I thought the whole plot was kind of weak. Blood lust...is this really a diagnosis for beating someone to a pulp? However, the scene at the end with the unsub saying good bye to his son and Hotch standing behind him with tears in his eyes made the whole hour worthwhile. That was a dynamite scene. As for Hotch and Beth...Give me a break. Hotch is an FBI agent and a single dad. This strange woman runs up to him says oh you're an agent, how about a date and here's my card in the sleeve of my runnibng outfit...PLEEZE! And Hotch tells Rossi...I want to be sure. This was absolutely malarkey. So out of character. I hope I never see or hear about Beth again. If you're going to have him date, please make it realistic. And earlier this season I asked the same question...is Hotch ill? He looks so gaunt. When will we see more profiling of the bad guys?

    [/Q

    yah the first 2 or 3 ep hotch looked gaunt and than he didnt look so bad but then this ep aired again and he looked gaunt again so idk whats going on maybe it is just from working out and eatting right lets just pray that that is really y
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of -o--sophie--o-

    -o--sophie--o-

    [12]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 12/13/06
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 8

    Ok, so I get that this isnt exactily on topic, but with this episode Im even more compelled to ask... Does anyone else think that it's about time Hotch started seeing Prentiss? I mean, we had a few sparks at the beginning, but he was married, but then they killed her off... and its been a while now, and the first time we see anything possibly happening with him in a relationship sense its some random bike chick? (who FYI im pretty convinced is a little shifty- stalker much? or is that just me?) Anyway, has anyone else been anticipating Hotch/Emily? Do you think the creators are thinking of this new girl as a rebound (granted a little late after his wife died), or am I totally off the mark and Im gonna get disappointed?? I think I may hold out hope

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of REIDFANATIC

    REIDFANATIC

    [13]Dec 15, 2011
    • member since: 02/23/07
    • level: 5
    • rank: Caveman Lawyer
    • posts: 186

    -o--sophie--o- wrote:
    Ok, so I get that this isnt exactily on topic, but with this episode Im even more compelled to ask... Does anyone else think that it's about time Hotch started seeing Prentiss? I mean, we had a few sparks at the beginning, but he was married, but then they killed her off... and its been a while now, and the first time we see anything possibly happening with him in a relationship sense its some random bike chick? (who FYI im pretty convinced is a little shifty- stalker much? or is that just me?) Anyway, has anyone else been anticipating Hotch/Emily? Do you think the creators are thinking of this new girl as a rebound (granted a little late after his wife died), or am I totally off the mark and Im gonna get disappointed?? I think I may hold out hope


    I don't think that's about to happen. One of the writers in a set report said that was the one rule, no romance within the team. I don't see Hotch as a man who would date a subordinate. I could see him perhaps having feelings for a subordinate but he is the ultimate in proper behavior and I don't think he would ever act on it. I've never seen these sparks everyone is always talking about.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of bluemystique

    bluemystique

    [14]Dec 16, 2011
    • member since: 02/15/10
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 33

    REIDFANATIC wrote:


    -o--sophie--o- wrote:
    Ok, so I get that this isnt exactily on topic, but with this episode Im even more compelled to ask... Does anyone else think that it's about time Hotch started seeing Prentiss? I mean, we had a few sparks at the beginning, but he was married, but then they killed her off... and its been a while now, and the first time we see anything possibly happening with him in a relationship sense its some random bike chick? (who FYI im pretty convinced is a little shifty- stalker much? or is that just me?) Anyway, has anyone else been anticipating Hotch/Emily? Do you think the creators are thinking of this new girl as a rebound (granted a little late after his wife died), or am I totally off the mark and Im gonna get disappointed?? I think I may hold out hope


    I don't think that's about to happen. One of the writers in a set report said that was the one rule, no romance within the team. I don't see Hotch as a man who would date a subordinate. I could see him perhaps having feelings for a subordinate but he is the ultimate in proper behavior and I don't think he would ever act on it. I've never seen these sparks everyone is always talking about.



    Agreed. Shipworthy moments or not the general consensus seems to be that the team is a family. I too don't see Hotch as a person to ever get involved with someone he works with (sorry hate the term "subordinate" seems too archaic for my liking : ) ) Just isn't him at all. And yeah...I've never seen any sort of spark, chemistry, or sexual tension between Hotch and Emily at all. I know so many who say that and I've tried to look at it from all angles and I just don't see it! I could maybe...maybe make an argument for JJ and Hotch since he does tend to play "favorites" when it comes to her but I wouldn't expect it, wouldn't want to see it, and wouldn't ship it because it doesn't fit Hotch to date a coworker.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of bluemystique

    bluemystique

    [15]Dec 16, 2011
    • member since: 02/15/10
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 33

    Overall thoughts:


    It speaks volumes yet again that I actually forgot that JJ was in the episode. Also...when Emily isn't being "dear abby" as someone else said, they pretty much make her a borderline background prop. I'm not fond of either of these characters so in hindsight it doesn't bother me either way seeing less of them, however I still continue to wonder what was the purpose of giving into the fans who raised hell until they signed both actresses back on, if they continue to use them...arguably less than they did before they left? I can't be the only one who notices that! Like I said, forgot JJ was in the episode..even though she was paired with one of my favorite characters. And Emily...it's really been clear since she's been back. I know she has a centric episode coming up but she's been poorly used all season so far.


    I know it's a reality and all...but it breaks my heart having to watch a child die in front of my eyes.The ending speech was lovely of course, and the fact that even HOtch (who didn't really shed a tear like that when his ex wife died) was so vulnerable and those stoic walls crumbled for just a few moments...was a sight to see. He was very moving.


    I'm all for Hotch moving on. Never was a fan of Hailey either. But Beth seemed to come out of nowhere, know too much, and was too pushy and forward. It was just odd. I can't shake the feeling that there is more to her just being a love interest.It seemed like some sort of setup or something. Maybe that was just me though. It was great seeing him flirt and having flirty moments though...so kudos to Boss man. And I loved seeing the always supportive Rossi. He cracks me up. Not to mention Reid practically knowing to the second how long Hotch has been single, and Garcia putting her foot in her mouth but hoping for free weekends. Cute.


    Lastly, I know this was supposed to be a very Hotchy episode, and I know the performance of the unsub was stellar...but honestly Charles Dutton's performance stole the entire episode. Truly. His death scene was worthy of an Oscar...not an Emmy, but an actual Oscar it was just that good. He was compelling, and moving with the utterance of "What about my family, Jimmy?" I'll most likely forget most of the ongoings of this episode months from now but I'll never forget that one scene. Finally a well known guest star who worked the hell out of his scenes to make them memorable.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of pamhalpert

    pamhalpert

    [16]Dec 16, 2011
    • member since: 05/15/06
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 1,927

    I'm glad they are finally putting Hotch in a relationship. It's past due.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of CM1Fan

    CM1Fan

    [17]Dec 16, 2011
    • member since: 08/18/10
    • level: 4
    • rank: Thighmaster
    • posts: 91
    I have never been a big fan of Hotch getting into a new relationship unless it is really kept in the background. With Prentisss, absolutely NOT. Sleeping with someone you work with doesn't seem like it would be in Hotch's character. And it would really muck up the team and, I think, each episode.
    I'm not crazy about the Beth character either. Just doesn't feel right. I think Hotch needs to find his own woman, not have someone chasing him. I think there is a romantic deep inside that hard exterior. Just like he went after Haley. And I would think he would be very protective of Jack and any relationship would have to take that into account.
    Most of all, I would just like the team to be more involved in profiling. Get back to what made this series so great in the first place.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of OverseasFan

    OverseasFan

    [18]Dec 17, 2011
    • member since: 11/21/10
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 71
    I think this episode was simply bland. So bland, I don't even feel like calling it bad. I didn't even have any reaction to it. Only blinked.

    I did like Hotch's interactions with Beth, though. They were sweet scenes, and were the only parts of this episode I could actually form a more-or-less solid opinion on.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Wynne

    Wynne

    [19]Dec 18, 2011
    • member since: 12/17/11
    • level: 1
    • rank: Weatherman
    • posts: 2

    Hate to be so critical of any episode, but this was probably the most poorly conceived and written of the series thus far. As someone else mentioned, why this case was even on the BAU radar is neither explained nor, as far as the series has informed us for the last six years, even justified. Very pedestrian boxing story. Considering that CM's core audience is primarily female, this was a bizarre choice of subject matter, unless it was a network ploy to gain more male demographic. :-)


    The only redeeming segments for me were the bookended scenes introducing a potential romantic interest for Hotch, and the scenes with Hotch telling the father to man up and face the death of his son.That last, with Hotch in the shadowed background, was one of the most moving scenes in episodic TV. The silent, single teardrop falling from Hotch's eye was beautifully captured and achingly reminiscent of the Daniel Day-Lewis performance at the end of Last of the Mohicans. Someone here said that Hotch didn't shed a similar tear over Haley, and that is not correct. His face was awash in tears in the car while he's on that last call to her, and later, he utterly breaks down sobbing while holding her dead body. One of the great aspects of this character's usually stoic demeanor is us getting these lovely glimpses into his heart. The multiple layers of subtext while he's hearing the father's words to the dying boy are heartbreaking in their complexity.


    While we'll have to wait and see what the Bellamy Young story arc is, I was less bothered than others here by the fact that she seemed to know so much about Hotch. It wouldn't have been outside the realm of possibility that she thought he was an agent. I didn't take her "I saw the suit" line seriously; thought it was more of a throwaway joke as exit line.


    What I did find odd is the lack of them exchanging first names. She gives him her business card, so he at least knows who she is and where she works, but we don't. More to the point, unless he caught up to her later, she doesn't know his name. I find this kind of coyness on the part of the writer unreal and annoying. Also, DC is the power capital of the world, so I found it completely believable that she would have a few business cards always at the ready regardless of the activity. You never miss an opportunity to network. And in this episode's case, he had already caught her eye on at least one previous occasion, so like any woman who hopes to meet someone she finds attractive, she would have planned to always carry one with her.


    I loved the Rossi-Hotch dynamic in this episode, too. I hope Rossi is Hotch's go-to guy for the duration of the series whenever he needs an ear. I love the juxtapositioning of Rossi's warm-hearted Italian gusto with Hotch's reserve. It would be a nice window into both characters.


    Whoa, waaaay too long. Sorry! :-)


    P.S. I don't understand the title of this episode. Can anyone enlighten me?

    Edited on 12/18/2011 2:20pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of phf3947

    phf3947

    [20]Dec 18, 2011
    • member since: 06/06/05
    • level: 71
    • rank: Bad News Bear
    • posts: 3,516
    Wynne wrote:
    P.S. I don't understand the title of this episode. Can anyone enlighten me?

    Welcome to the forum
    The writer explained the title in a CM Set Report Q&A last week. She said, "The Sweet Science is a boxing term. So I put a twist on it since this ep. was so sad..."
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.