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The Unsubs.

  • Avatar of smartchick

    smartchick

    [121]Jun 4, 2007
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    Would security really undergo polygraph tests that often? And would those tests ask questions like "How do you feel about the people you work for?" I'm not saying they wouldn't. I'm saying I have no idea how it all works, but the unsub probably still stood a good chance of getting through that kind of test if he was skilled at controlling his pulse rate, breathing, and stress level. Most people can't do all that to the degree of fooling a polygraph, but you never know. Sometimes the readings on those tests come out as inconclusive, so that result wouldn't completely clear him, but they still couldn't officially pin anything down on him either.

    Believability aside, did anyone else find his voice to be really annoying? Yeah, the character was supposed to come across as arrogant and strive for sounding smarter than he really was, but he got on my nerves. It didn't ruin the entire episode for me, but I found myself willfully tuning him out after awhile.  

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    Finnegan77

    [122]Jun 4, 2007
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    smartchick wrote:

    Would security really undergo polygraph tests that often? And would those tests ask questions like "How do you feel about the people you work for?" I'm not saying they wouldn't. I'm saying I have no idea how it all works, but the unsub probably still stood a good chance of getting through that kind of test if he was skilled at controlling his pulse rate, breathing, and stress level. Most people can't do all that to the degree of fooling a polygraph, but you never know. Sometimes the readings on those tests come out as inconclusive, so that result wouldn't completely clear him, but they still couldn't officially pin anything down on him either.

    Believability aside, did anyone else find his voice to be really annoying? Yeah, the character was supposed to come across as arrogant and strive for sounding smarter than he really was, but he got on my nerves. It didn't ruin the entire episode for me, but I found myself willfully tuning him out after awhile.  

    Yes, anyone with a higher level security clearance undergoes periodic polygraphs.  No, they don't ask you how you feel about people or things - they are straight line yes/no questions.  BUT, they would reveal an out-of-line nervous tension whenever the names of the girls were mentioned.  While that would not be conclusive, it would lead to further investigations and questions.  If the polygraphs of people with clearances come out inconclusive, there is a lot of further investigation - they don't just drop it like they would have to with a witness or suspected criminal.

    His voice? Frankly, it sounded like a typical underachieving loser to me.

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    BAUCTU

    [123]Jun 4, 2007
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    You guys have turned this into a brilliant discussion, using proper big words!

    Unsubs by their very nature are good at what they do, the BAU only gets the tough cases that the other agencies can't solve. They are obviously good at staying under the radar and with the polygraph I guess it depends what he's asked. can't imagine the FBI thinks to check if their agenents are becoming homicide or stalkerishly nutty in that way.
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    jcmjagfan

    [124]Jun 4, 2007
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    Plus, we don't know when his last poly was given, and how far the obsession had progressed at that time. Even if he was on the detail AND a question refering to his current assignment was asked, he could dismiss it with "I am more concerned about them since they've gone off to college." OR "...since they've been recieveing these letters".

    I believe new FBI agents are routinely reassigned to various departments, so they get experience in all aspects of the job. Sort of like interns at a hospital, doing "rotations" through pediactrics, surgery, ER (Trauma), orthopedics, maternity, etc. Just becasue an agent has more experience in one field, or chooses a specific career path, doesn't mean he's not done well in the other areas.

    Security Details are NOT minor, insignificant, assignments. No one is supplied with FBI protection on a whim. Thre's a definite potential for disaster. The job requires excellent observational skills, flexibility, diplomacy, gunmanship, fast reflexes and the ability to read a situation & make a judgement in seconds. All of which would come in handy if you're trying to hide something, (maybe not the gunmanship, unitl later).

    Hmmm... I think I'm getting the hang of that "never-ending-sentence" game; and I wasn't even trying!!

    Edited on 08/24/2007 6:47pm
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  • Avatar of smartchick

    smartchick

    [125]Jun 5, 2007
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    Thanks Finnegan for clearing up a few fuzzy details for me! Like I said, my knowledge about polygraph procedures is minimal.

    Just for the record, I hope no one misinterpreted what I meant when I asked whether or not security even needed to take polygraph tests. When I questioned whether or not that position merited a regular polygraph, I didn't mean their jobs were so meaningless or insignificant that they could be done by any average guy walking in off the street. I have complete respect for anyone with the skills, intelligence, and ability to do that kind of a job. I guess I was doing a vague mental comparison between security and, say, someone working undercover overseas on a high-stakes secret mission. I forget that you guys, as analytical and smart as all of you are, maybe can't read my mind...  

     

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    Finnegan77

    [126]Jun 5, 2007
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    Hey, who says I can't read your mind?

    I know what you mean - any of these people who devote their lives to making us safer either on a small scale or a large scale are fantastic in my book. Once you've lived around "clearance" types for any length of time these things are just no-brainers. (And stop thinking that right now!)

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    jcmjagfan

    [127]Jun 5, 2007
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    Finnegan77 wrote:
    Hey, who says I can't read your mind?
    I know what you mean - any of these people who devote their lives to making us safer either on a small scale or a large scale are fantastic in my book. Once you've lived around "clearance" types for any length of time these things are just no-brainers. (And stop thinking that right now!)

    Didn't mean to rant guys, just got a wee bit carried away I guess.
    The pre-election hype has started and I'm a little sensitive, what with all the snarky comments about our Pres-FBI-CIA, etc & 9-11. Bureauocracy happens; but when it comes to those guys that put their lives on the line, I get feisty. They didn't come up with the slogan "Don't Mess With Texas" for nothin'.

    Uh-Oh, Finn -- I just noticed you're a "Red Shirt". Better not go on any landing parties or away missions!!

    Edited on 08/24/2007 6:48pm
    Edited 2 total times.
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    Finnegan77

    [128]Jun 5, 2007
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    LDSK is the next ep. Philip Dowd - "hero homicide" - shoots people in the gut so he can be a hero in the emergency room. (He also likes to hit people in the face with the butt of his rifle.) So what could be the background behind this kind of whack-job? Not enough attention as a child? People don't appreciate him? Sorry, can you hear the sarcasm in my voice? I guess Philip just doesn't evoke any sort of empathetic response in me whatsoever. Shoot him again, Reid!
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  • Avatar of jcmjagfan

    jcmjagfan

    [129]Jun 5, 2007
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    Finnegan77 wrote:
    LDSK is the next ep. Philip Dowd - "hero homicide" - shoots people in the gut so he can be a hero in the emergency room. (He also likes to hit people in the face with the butt of his rifle.) So what could be the background behind this kind of whack-job? Not enough attention as a child? People don't appreciate him? Sorry, can you hear the sarcasm in my voice? I guess Philip just doesn't evoke any sort of empathetic response in me whatsoever. Shoot him again, Reid!

    Didn't he nail him square between the eyes? Even Reid didn't want to waste bullets on this guy.
    I think it's a variation of Munchausen's by Proxy, but I've never really understood how a mother can harm her own child; and I don't feel anything but relief that this guy is dead. I think Reid did the world a service. This guy was prepared to kill everyone in the room when he got caught. Reid saved all those people AND the tax-payers the costs of a trial & keeping this guy in prison or a mental ward.

    The only good thing this guy did was make Reid's first kill, not only a "good shoot", but an unequivocal necessity. It's good that Reid feels bad about having to take a life, any life. But at least there's no question about this guy's guilt. Nor was he a sympathetic character like the girl in "Compulsion".

    Edited on 08/24/2007 6:48pm
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  • Avatar of smartchick

    smartchick

    [130]Jun 6, 2007
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    Yeah, Reid went from looking like an absolute dunce while holding a gun to nailing that Dowd squarely between the eyes! Hotch was beaming with pride when he spoke with Reid at the ambulance. That scene held one of, IMO, the best humorous exchanges I've ever seen on the show:

    Hotch: "Nice shot."

    Reid: "I was aiming for his leg."

    When this episode first aired, I initially just thought of Reid as becoming king of the nerds for a day after getting to shoot Dowd. It was a much-needed service to society, and he did feel uneasy about killing, but more than anything, he was kind of in shock. Actually, in this episode he took a giant stride towards his development as an FBI agent. That numbness emerged because, though he felt guilty about taking a life, he knew Dowd was the kind of guy for whom that T-shirt slogan was made: "Some people are only alive simply because it's illegal to kill them." If he wanted to stick with the FBI, he needed to experience and deal with the guilt and confusion about killing sooner rather than later. Once those issues were dealt with, it was easier for him to make cool-headed decisions about firing the gun and live with himself afterwards. (*snort* he had no problem shooting Tobias...gee, can't imagine why)

    As far as I'm concerned, Reid could've emptied all the bullets and it wouldn't have been excessive.

    Anyway, Dowd's entire purpose for pegging people in public areas was so he could play Mother Theresa in the emergency room. I know the term used was "hero homicide," but wasn't that an off-shoot of his narcissistic personality disorder? I can see the correlation between Dowd's behavior and Munchausen by Proxy Syndrome, but I don't remember the BAU tossing around that term at the profile briefing. Personally, I also can't fathom how a parent could possibly stand watching their child get thrust into harm's way, let alone be the one that puts their child in that position. For those mothers, it's about an unhealthy desire for sympathy from others at the expense of their child's well-being.

    I think that no matter how we examine it, Dowd's issues stemmed from this unhealthy desire for attention and admiration. That's why he chose jobs rooted in public service, bouncing from the police station to the hospital. His overblown sense of self-image demanded that others view him like he could walk on water. When your career involves intense pressure or risk that surrounds saving people's lives, general public opinion tends to bestow you with an honorary halo. He recognized that. 

    Edited on 06/06/2007 8:17am
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    BAUCTU

    [131]Jun 6, 2007
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    I don't know about Munchauseen, typically that is parents deliberataly harming their child so that they can be immersed in the medical world. They generally know more medical information than you would expect a none medicala person to and love the attention they as the parent get. Dowd is different in that he knows all the medical stuff he just wanted to be the hero, to save the world so to speak.
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    jcmjagfan

    [132]Jun 6, 2007
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    That whole scene at the end was priceless!! Hotch is so worried that he's hurt Reid or his feelings. Our boy puffs up like he's the only rooster in the hen-house: "I got your plan the minute... You kick like a 9-year-old girl".

    I guess I don't understand Munchausen's at all, then! Anyway, they both hurt others to be in the spot-light.... sympathy, adoration, whatever. Can we just stick the guy in a pauper's grave, and move on to "The Fox"??

    Edited on 08/24/2007 6:49pm
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    BAUCTU

    [133]Jun 7, 2007
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    Munchausen's by proxy.

     I couldn't find a good link to Hero homicide, does it have a different name?

    With HH it's about getting recognition and respect but with MBP it's a mixture of control over the victim and attention/sypathy from the medical team.   Dowd didn't want sympathy or mere attention and he wasn't bothered about control I don't think he just wanted to be someone.

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    smartchick

    [134]Jun 7, 2007
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    Just so you know, jcmjagfan, I'm never getting that image of Reid puffing up like a rooster stuck out of my head...

    "The Fox's" unsub was one of the creepiest and, arguably, most brilliant villians ever written for the show. For me, one of the saddest and most shocking scenes from that season was watching Hotch slowly open the unsub's souvenir box dump out 7 or 8 wedding rings onto the table...the realization of its significance lowered onto me with a "Boom!"

    Edited on 06/07/2007 8:59am
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    Finnegan77

    [135]Jun 7, 2007
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    I agree- The Fox was the first episode I gave a "10" - everything about it was fantastic. And the fact that we never even set eyes on the unsub until that horrifying scene in the basement when he throws the baby! Morgan's "role-play" explanation of the guy's profile was soooo fascinating. Every little detail had to be in line for him - talk about needing to control things. Being in bed with the wife from the first family was almost as disgusting as giving the baby her pacifier. Chills!
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    jcmjagfan

    [136]Jun 7, 2007
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    BAUCTU wrote:
    Munchausen's by proxy.I couldn't find a good link to Hero homicide, does it have a different name?
    With HH it's about getting recognition and respect but with MBP it's a mixture of control over the victim and attention/sypathy from the medical team. Dowd didn't want sympathy or mere attention and he wasn't bothered about control I don't think he just wanted to be someone.

    ok,ok, Excessive, Hyperbole-Riddled, Brangelina, Gen.Patton, POTUS, WTC-Firefighter, Name-in-2in-Letters-Above-the-Fold, Oprah-Wants-An-Interview, Hero-Worship, attention.

    He's still a schmuck.

    Edited on 08/24/2007 6:50pm
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    BAUCTU

    [137]Jun 7, 2007
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    Finnegan77 wrote:
    I agree- The Fox was the first episode I gave a "10" - everything about it was fantastic. And the fact that we never even set eyes on the unsub until that horrifying scene in the basement when he throws the baby! Morgan's "role-play" explanation of the guy's profile was soooo fascinating. Every little detail had to be in line for him - talk about needing to control things. Being in bed with the wife from the first family was almost as disgusting as giving the baby her pacifier. Chills!


    Very chilling. The first time I saw it I was wondering why Hotch stayed behind to search the office but when he tipped out the weding rings I realised why. The scene was much more powerful because he was the married one the team.

    Loved seeing Jerry as a crazy guy.
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    jcmjagfan

    [138]Jun 7, 2007
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    Slight delay in reading & response time... My NCIS tape got munched So I picked up my CM tape early & I'm watching "The Big Game" as we speak errr... type. I'd forgotten about the scene where JJ gets attacked by the dogs No WONDER she didn't want Reid & her to split up in "Jones".

    Returning to "The Fox":
    My heart was in my throat in that scene with the baby. I was afraid he was going to bash the poor child's brains against the wall or something, so I was actually relieved when he threw the baby. I knew one of our guys would manage to catch it.

    Creepiest thing about the Unsub for me, was that he actually worked as a family therapist. I know the more organized criminals do tend to get jobs where they can find easy prey. Child Molesters work at amusement parks, even plain old Embezzlers & Con-Artists in banks.
    The relationship of a psychologist or social-worker and the client is such an intimate one. It's like a family member turning on the others, or a preacher turning on members of the church.

    Edited on 08/24/2007 6:51pm
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    smartchick

    [139]Jun 8, 2007
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    Some of the most cunning unsubs we've seen have all used that element of surprise. Undoubtedly, the last couple of generations have been more aware of the presence of child molesters and other criminals in settings that can easily double as their "hunting grounds," but still...it's hard to wrap your brain around the idea that your preacher, priest, therapist, teacher, coach, cop, or doctor might be one of them. The closer you get to someone, the more prone you are to becoming blind to otherwise obvious warning signs. I think sometimes victims find themselves trapped into danger and become suspended in shock because they never saw it coming. That happens partly because they trusted their attacker, but I also believe it's the result of the "this kind of stuff happens to other people, not to me" mindset. That's not criticizing or blaming the victim. It just seems that kind of ugly reality never truly registers on a cognitive level until it finally hits home. By then, it may or may not be too late.   

    This guy infiltrated those families' lives because his very job description gave the parents reason to trust him enough to intentionally render themselves vulnerable in order for him to help them work through their problems.

    Life may not be fair, and evil people will always be around, but still, people in those positions are just not supposed to be out to get you! On the one hand, how can you protect yourself or your loved ones unless you have a somewhat suspicious mindset? On the other hand, a state of chronic negativity and cynicism isn't my idea of living a happy life.

    Maybe it's all about achieving a happy medium between caution and trust.    

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    michaelhanergod

    [140]Jun 8, 2007
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    BAUCTU wrote:
    Finnegan77 wrote:
    I agree- The Fox was the first episode I gave a "10" - everything about it was fantastic. And the fact that we never even set eyes on the unsub until that horrifying scene in the basement when he throws the baby! Morgan's "role-play" explanation of the guy's profile was soooo fascinating. Every little detail had to be in line for him - talk about needing to control things. Being in bed with the wife from the first family was almost as disgusting as giving the baby her pacifier. Chills!
    Very chilling. The first time I saw it I was wondering why Hotch stayed behind to search the office but when he tipped out the weding rings I realised why. The scene was much more powerful because he was the married one the team. Loved seeing Jerry as a crazy guy.

    The Fox was an excelent episode. That unsub was one evil son of a **** Hopefully we will see an unsub again so disturbing that can give people the chills. The Unsub in Legacy actually came close to the coldness of the killer in The Fox

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