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Showtime (ended 2013)

Ok, after showing the flashbacks of Matthews telling Dexter that his father killed himself, i had a Eureka moment, and said to myself: "Vogel killed Harry!"

Then when Deb wanted to see the rest of the videos i became more sure, because that means that Vogel is hiding some videos from Deb and Dexter, which means that there is something to hide, then i saw the video which Harry said in: "I don't think i can live with this"

Which confirmed what i was suspecting: that Harry didn't commit suicide, not only because of that, but some things that don't fit in with Harry committing suicide:

- Law enforcement don't OD to commit suicide - usually -, they use their guns or shotguns and blast the hell out of their brains, but never ODing, that doesn't fit the usual suicide profile for police, and also because chemicals are women's usual weapon for murder and Vogel is indeed a women(of sorts) so if she were to kill someone, she would probably poison him, or in Harry's case make it seem like he ODed

- Harry is arrogant, when he adopted Dexter and knew he was a "sociopath" he didn't want him to go to a mental institution , he broke everything he believes in so he could right his wrong, because he thinks that he is the reason why Dexter became what he became(using his mother as a CI, causing her to die, and Dexter seeing all of it, and making him a "Monster"), so when he says that he can't live with that, i don't think he means that he wants to kill himself, i think he means that he wants to make things right (confess to the police about what he and Vogel were doing with Dexter)

What i am wondering now is: When is Dexter going to find out, and when are we going see Vogel on the "table" ??, and most importantly are we??

What do you guys think??, am i crazy, or spot on?

(Full disclosure ,"Lex1fan" already commented on the review post saying that Vogel killed Harry(he beat me to it), but because he doesn't seem to be a member of this - glorified - community(i can only see the top 20 members so i am not sure) i decided to post this discussion to see if i am(and Lex1fan) are the only ones thinking this too, or if everyone else or some people are also suspecting the same thing)

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Children because I am Greek for online viewing you can get to see it here with Greek subtitles.HERE ONLINE MOVIES
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harry chose to OD cuz he didnt want his kids knowing he killed himself. would have been hard if he blew his brains out with a shot gun and just left a note saying it went off when he was cleaning it ;-P Vogel isn't a killer.
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She shrinked him into it but he thought it was his idea.
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inception (y)
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Most def ... only Dexter doesn't seem to notice what an evil witch Vogel is.
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I too am convinced that Vogel had something to do with Harry's death. I find it hard to believe that Harry would take his own life, leaving Deb behind with a psychopath brother. I also find it hard to believe that Vogel would allow Harry to pull the plug on her experiment. Does anyone else find it weird that 1) Dexter is not in Vogel's book of psychopaths (i.e., suspect list), and 2) Dexter hasn't had any Harry conversations as in previous episodes. Dexter seems to have lost his survival instincts - he is much too trusting of Vogel. I would suspect that if there were Harry conversations, Harry would be warning him to be careful of Vogel.
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I think that is a valid theory with one exception and that is that I hate it when shows re-write history over and over. Dexter has done it a few times, in my opinion, and it always bothers me.

That being said, I kind of like it.

I do agree that cops and etc rarely take pills, or OD but they also rarely have access to those options, and have easy access to guns. Being a cancer patient, Harry would have had access.

I guess my problem was with Harry killing himself in the first place. I mean, he had Dex kill the nurse that was killing people in the hospice care that he was in. Then he doesn't like it so he kills himself? I hated that the writers did that later on, so if we find out Vogel did kill Harry, I guess I would like that better.
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I'm liking your thinking, Abo-Malek. And I can definitely see the series going down this route, leading to Dexter and/or Deb resigning Vogel to the table, all without it seeming too much like a total ret-con. Vogel is clever enough to tamper with someone's pills and make a death look like suicide without the help of anybody else. So I very much doubt that Matthews is involved and to the outside world, it just looked like suicide/natural causes. They have altered the origins of The Code over the cause of season eight, so this would be fresh information that would be easy enough to digest and believe.
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This would make a shit load of sense, but I'm almost certain a lot of people will take it as retconning the fact that Harry killed himself.
Unless Matthews was/is in cahoots with Vogel and maybe he killed Harry on her orders, but I'm not even sure I like that idea.
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I think Matthew (or Matthew together with Vogel) killed Harry. Matthew covered up Harry's suicide probably because he knows Harry didn't OD and he don't want the police to look further.
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It's a possibility, but Matthews doesn't really have the sense of "justice" that will make him side with Vogel and kill Harry to protect Dexter's psychopathy, all he cares about is himself, if he did kill Harry, i think that he killed him not for Dexter's sake but for something that will profit him in the short or long run, maybe a promotion or something Harry had on him!
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Killing him Harry herself, no; but having him killed is a possibility rapidly becoming a probability. Or maybe she helped him in his suicide, talking him into it. anyways, Vogel has so deeply involved herself with her subjects that she might have gone to the Dark Side herself.
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Hmmmm, Vogel talking Harry into committing suicide is a very interesting theory actually.
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Harry's statement 'I do not think I can live with this' could well have meant that he wanted to stop Dr. Vogel's 'therapy' and instead put Dexter in a mental facility. Perhaps he tried to convince Dr Vogel? It would stand to reason that Dr Vogel would have killed Harry so that her Dexter experiment could continue... If Harry arguing with Dr Vogel about this was on the last tape, Deb / Dex could find it?
If all this is true though, why did she come back now? To finish her 'case study'? Is she perhaps dying? There has to be a reason for the timing of her return (other than this being the final season...)
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It's a really good theory and has just as much chance of being true as any other one out there. I don't agree with everything you've said but there's enough there.

I think the ODing can be explained because Harry didn't want his children to know he had suicided, imagine how much harder that would have been for Deb, especially when she couldn't know why.

I like your interpretation of Harry's not being able to live with it meaning he would become a threat to Vogel instead of being suicidal, although I think there are still some leaps in logic that would need to be overcome before that makes sense, I would still lean towards Harry realising he couldn't accept Dexter and his own complicity and did want to suicide, but it's even possible that Vogel found out about that and killed him anyway.

Regardless I'm dreading the possibility of Dexter putting Vogel on the table. This is the final season, and Dexter is supposedly reexamining his motives not sleepwalking through his old routines. They pull off Vogel on the table well but the important thing is for the season not to build towards that. There has to be more to finishing off the show than Dexter realising his confidant is 'evil' and killing them, we don't need another Lila situation.
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- Thanks.

- If it wasn't for Matthews his children would've know, but Matthews decided to sweep it under the rug to keep Harry's picture unscathed, so ODing would've made the same effect a bullet to the head would do if it wasn't for Matthews pulling some strings.

- Maybe i was biased in that matter, but i didn't like Harry killing himself, if he was killed trying to do the right thing, then Harry would be some kind of hero, but if he killed himself and left his family alone, his son killing criminals pathologically, and his daughter without a father, he will be just another man who couldn't handle his life and his decisions and instead of taking responsibility for what he did he chose the stupid(easy?, hard?) way out of it and probably helped destroying his family.

- Actually i am kind of excited for the possibility, Vogel is something more to Dexter than Lila was, Lila was a crazy women who Dexter had kind of a crush on, but Vogel is(or was) the only mother figure in Dexter's life, she -mostly- made him so i wouldn't mind at all if i saw Vogel on Dexter's table
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I think the important line here is when Vogel tells Dexter that his father insisted the first line of the code should be to only kill bad people while Vogel insisted that the first part should be "never to get caught." This shows that Vogel is more likely than not to do whatever it takes to not get caught and put her life and career in danger. If Harry, initially torn, chose to turn Dexter in (jail/help) and/or shut down Vogel's illicit operations with numerous other patients on ethical grounds, it is implied her that Vogel would never let this happen. We know central female characters in the show other than Deb used poison a la Hannah McKay, so why wouldn't Vogel have done it? It fits with Harry's death. The references to his suicide at the end of the episode, draw more attention to the question of Harry's death, implying that it may not be as it seems. It may not be so simple. Moreover, the entire reason Vogel is seeking Dexter is so she doesn't get caught.
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That's a good theory that will explain a lot of things.
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Every seasonal character who knows about Dexter's secret dies in the end,the only exception being Hannah McKay.So,Vogel WILL die in the end.He couldn't kill Hannah because he loved her,same with the case of Deb.But there is no such obligation with Vogel. He didn't kill her in the first episode because she didn't fit the code.In order to fit the code,Vogel had to have killed someone and gotten away with it.So,Vogel killed Harry!
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You are forgetting lumen...
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Yeah but this is the final season, I'll break my tv if there's no resolution beyond Vogel showing up on Dexter's table.
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I really like your theory and I did think it myself the last episode because one or two things didn't make sense. I do thinks this works better. I like it. Well thought!
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Dammit. I hate myself for reading this. It's like in season 6 when the first ppl figured out Osmond's character ain't real and after knowing it got painfully obvious.
So yeah, it has to be true since it fits so well. It's a good idea but very easy to figure out since Vogel just got introduced and the pieces are falling in place already. He's gonna kill Vogel in the finale and it will be like Dexter's moment of absolution - which they can resolve as they please.
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it does kind of make we wonder now....if harry and vogel went to all this trouble to come up with a "code" for dexter, why was he so shocked that dexter actually went through with it and killed someone? I get that he may have found it all a bit gruesome and all, but isn't this what they expected dexter to do? I think harry was acting as vogel's eyes into what dexter was doing, and him not being able to live with it anymore meant that vogel could no longer keep tabs on her lab rat. If she killed harry, he would no longer be an obstacle to get to dexter.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think dexter has seen much of harry when vogel is around....this could mean something later in the season
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"Correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think dexter has seen much of harry when vogel is around....this could mean something later in the season"
Yeah, you are absolutely right, it's like she is replacing him in Dexter's unconscious maybe??
He wasn't in this episode at all!, does anyone remember if he was in the previous one??, if it's one episode it might be a coincidence, but if it was two, then i am sure it's not, and that he isn't there for a reason.
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I think he was in the previous one.
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Ah, okay, then let's see if he will be in the next one
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They would have come up with the heart medication thing long before they wrote the Vogel character, or at the very least it had to be something similar because he obviously didn't use his gun or else Matthews couldn't have had it go down as a heart attack. The fact that he used pills could have been an intentional anomaly or an example of the writers not doing their homework, possibly one of many. I'm not a cop, so I don't know. The murder scenario makes sense retroactively, but it isn't guaranteed to be the case by any means.
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Also, I agree with Slayerette. Let's not mess with events that were established in season 1 (or was it 2? Whatever). Hey, while we're at it, what if Lyla was actually a man and Doakes was a heavily tanned white guy? What if Vogel used her experimental therapy techniques to turn Brian Moser into the Ice Truck Killer?

I like the idea of Vogel coming up with the idea of the code. It always seemed like a big leap for a cop to train his son to become a murderous vigilante no matter how good a reason he had, and Vogel's involvement bridges that a lot. But I think that's enough involvement from her. There are other ways she and Dexter can become enemies, or maybe they don't have to at all.
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I honestly didn't think about this myself until I read the comment from Lex1fan in the episode review and your post here. And I gotta say... it makes some sense. I don't think it's the obvious route to go and frankly, part of me probably doesn't want that to be the case... but I can see your logic and reasoning, and it's certainly plausible.
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I really don't want that to be the case, why can't writers ever let sleeping dogs lie? Why do they have to go and change the shows entire history to make the last season that much more significant? Why can't Harry just have killed himself?
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