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5x05: Flesh And Stone (1/5/2010)

  • Avatar of tonrdam

    tonrdam

    [121]May 3, 2010
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    to be honest i thought the end of the episode was kind of a let down



    from mortal danger (army of angels) to solution in 10 seconds. Then the way amy throws herself at the doctor. And as a bonus the way to obvious "killed a good man" river line. The thing with that is that if it is'nt the doctor it is a simple trick, if it is, well like to see the story on that (don't forget this is the convicted river with the man she will kill.

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    kompongwho

    [122]May 3, 2010
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    thetruesora wrote:
    Rose became 'God' at the end of her first season (episode 13) when she took the time vortex into her head and became the "bad wolf".


    Gah! Got my timeywimey confused. Even worse - modern young women getting to be insta-gods.


    I've just come across this:



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_War_%28Doctor_Who%29



    "The Time War also provides a convenient in-story explanation for any contradictions in series continuity: for example, writer Paul Cornell has suggested that Earth's destruction by an expanding sun in The End of the World five billion years hence, as opposed to the original depiction of its demise around the year 10,000,000 AD (The Ark, 1966) can be attributed to changes in history due to the War.



    Writer and future Doctor Who executive producer Steven Moffat has gone further, arguing that "a television series which embraces both the ideas of parallel universes and the concept of changing time can't have a continuity error - it's impossible for Doctor Who to get it wrong, because we can just say 'he changed time - it's a time ripple from the Time War'."



    I guess this cop-out must be the definitive word on the Wibbly-Wobbly Timey-Wimey World of Moff.

    Edited on 05/03/2010 9:44am
    Edited 2 total times.
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  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [123]May 3, 2010
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    kompongwho wrote:

    thetruesora wrote:
    Rose became 'God' at the end of her first season (episode 13) when she took the time vortex into her head and became the "bad wolf".


    Gah! Got my timeywimey confused. Even worse - modern young women getting to be insta-gods.


    I've just come across this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_War_%28Doctor_Who%29 "Writer and future Doctor Who executive producer Steven Moffat has gone further, arguing that "a television series which embraces both the ideas of parallel universes and the concept of changing time can't have a continuity error - it's impossible for Doctor Who to get it wrong, because we can just say 'he changed time - it's a time ripple from the Time War'." I guess this cop-out must be the definitive word on the Wibbly-Wobbly Timey-Wimey World of Moff.



    Well he proved himself wrong by having a continuity error caused by doign 2 conflicting things in the same episode. Kudos Moffat, Kudos.
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    Frenz9

    [124]May 3, 2010
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    I am a bit confused, he seemed to have realized that time can be rewritten, i thought it could anyway? just go back and change it, which he should already know.. can somebody explain?
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    BlitzEileen

    [125]May 3, 2010
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    This kinda had me thinking to. In the scene where The Doctor works out the cracks purpose he specifically said, time can be unwritten. Then at the scene where Amy asks what The Doctor's thinking. He says time can be re[/re]written. They can mean the same thing and probably do in this instance, but I thought I'd just point it out because The Doctor made quite a point of saying that time can be [i]unwritten.
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    Ravenite

    [126]May 3, 2010
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    Does anyone else think the Doctor explaining away Amy remembering those guys because a time traveler sees things differently as a clever lie and there's somethimng more going on? There was just something about his expression.
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    PsyduckRanger

    [127]May 4, 2010
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    How on Earth can people say the Weeping Angels were scarier this time round? They were seriously terrifying last time. I was having this conversation earlier tonight, walking back through the woods in the dark after a barbecue. Someone pointed out that it's a rather nice death the Weeping Angels inflict on you (in Ten's words, "the only creatures in the universe to kill you nicely") and that it wasn't really scary at all. I pointed out that blinking, or looking away for an instant, then finding this statue has moved to within inches of your face, screaming at you is pretty terrifying. I then proceeded to turn round (we were walking single file) and scream at them. They were convinced of my argument.

    This time...not only are they slow, but we saw them move. Whilst it was really creepy, it was more like...it gave my the shivers a bit, but it didn't scare me.

    Plus, yeah, they send you back in time. We've seen three (or four, I guess, with A Ghost Story for Christmas) occurrences of Weeping Angels sending people back in time, and ok, from what we've seen it's not been too bad.

    What if they sent you back billions of years, to the time or dinosaurs, or into the ice age? Who says they're limited to the last century? Plus, we know they can move you through space too. You could wind up in the ocean - or who knows, they might be able to send you off the Earth. The ability to send you to any point in time or space? Pretty scary to me.
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    MarkTomlinson0

    [128]May 5, 2010
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    Awesome episode, a thrilling conlusion. It's nice to finally have a two parter where the secnod episode matches up to the first. Just a few things that occured to me whilst perusing this thread. Firstly, where do they say the Crack is "semi-sentient"? Secondly, when the Doctor tells Amy to remember, he says it is not important what he said just that she remembers. I took this to mean it was some sort of defense (originally I thought against the weeping angel in her mind, although I know thing it may be against the timewarping effects of the crack)



    Also, it would have been nice to know what the Angels needed the bodies before, but I guess we'll never know.

    Edited on 05/05/2010 9:25am
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    TOCM19

    [129]May 5, 2010
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    MarkTomlinson0 wrote:

    Awesome episode, a thrilling conlusion. It's nice to finally have a two parter where the secnod episode matches up to the first. Just a few things that occured to me whilst perusing this thread. Firstly, where do they say the Crack is "semi-sentient"? Secondly, when the Doctor tells Amy to remember, he says it is not important what he said just that she remembers. I took this to mean it was some sort of defense (originally I thought against the weeping angel in her mind, although I know thing it may be against the timewarping effects of the crack)



    Also, it would have been nice to know what the Angels needed the bodies before, but I guess we'll never know.



    They don't say it's sentient, but to be able to pick and choose what to erase from time i would kind of have to be, of course it's probably not and there'll never be an explination, we just have to accept that cracks leaking time energy make people never exsist (even though they don't really) but they do, although they didn't PARADOX MACHINE.
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    belial_77

    [130]May 5, 2010
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    PsyduckRanger wrote:

    What if they sent you back billions of years, to the time or dinosaurs, or into the ice age? Who says they're limited to the last century? Plus, we know they can move you through space too. You could wind up in the ocean - or who knows, they might be able to send you off the Earth. The ability to send you to any point in time or space? Pretty scary to me.


    Well... they wouldn't do that cause you prob wouldn't live too long in those conditions... and that's the whole point of sendin you back, to feed off your life energy... if you die too quick, they don't get a full meal.

    Also, I thought the angel's movements in this epi were weird too... not for the reason you said tho, but when they were "frozen" when no one on screen was seeing them. Are we meant to infer that even us creatures from beyond the 4th wall, can quantumly effect them?
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  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [131]May 5, 2010
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    belial_77 wrote:
    PsyduckRanger wrote:

    What if they sent you back billions of years, to the time or dinosaurs, or into the ice age? Who says they're limited to the last century? Plus, we know they can move you through space too. You could wind up in the ocean - or who knows, they might be able to send you off the Earth. The ability to send you to any point in time or space? Pretty scary to me.


    Well... they wouldn't do that cause you prob wouldn't live too long in those conditions... and that's the whole point of sendin you back, to feed off your life energy... if you die too quick, they don't get a full meal.


    Ten said they feed of the moments you never had. So the Dinosaur death thing isn't an issue I think.

    belial_77 wrote:

    Also, I thought the angel's movements in this epi were weird too... not for the reason you said tho, but when they were "frozen" when no one on screen was seeing them. Are we meant to infer that even us creatures from beyond the 4th wall, can quantumly effect them?


    Well Eleven said that it's their instinct to freeze to stone, so i see it like whilst someone actually looking at them means it's impossible for them to overcome the instinct, once they aren't being looked at anymore it takes them a while before they fight it away?

    But since they never exsisted it's a non issue no? LOL
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    MarkTomlinson0

    [132]May 5, 2010
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    TOCM19 wrote:
    MarkTomlinson0 wrote:

    Awesome episode, a thrilling conlusion. It's nice to finally have a two parter where the secnod episode matches up to the first. Just a few things that occured to me whilst perusing this thread. Firstly, where do they say the Crack is "semi-sentient"? Secondly, when the Doctor tells Amy to remember, he says it is not important what he said just that she remembers. I took this to mean it was some sort of defense (originally I thought against the weeping angel in her mind, although I know thing it may be against the timewarping effects of the crack)



    Also, it would have been nice to know what the Angels needed the bodies before, but I guess we'll never know.



    They don't say it's sentient, but to be able to pick and choose what to erase from time i would kind of have to be, of course it's probably not and there'll never be an explination, we just have to accept that cracks leaking time energy make people never exsist (even though they don't really) but they do, although they didn't PARADOX MACHINE.


    It didn't pick and choose, it took everything it could get.
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    TOCM19

    [133]May 5, 2010
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    It did, It took an entire thing out of time, But in the case of a person, scientifically they are just matter derived from whatever they've eaten etc. so really erasing a person from time requires intelligence, it requires the ability to identify which matter is representative of that person at every instant in time. If it just erased what it touched from time, that person would still ahve been born and had pretty much the same life, just the things they consumed would have been different matter. Though that would have caused a recursive loop that would have removed infinite amounts of energy from the universe.

    However you look at it it doesnt really work, plus there's the fact that even though the Angels "never exsisted" the ship was still crashed, River was still sent to stop the Angel, and presumably the people that picked her up still remembered the mission. Basically the whole episdoe contradicts itself. Not to mention the Doctor at some stage going to come back in time to talk to Amy durign an event that technically never happened.
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    steamheaduk

    [134]May 5, 2010
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    TOCM19 wrote:
    However you look at it it doesnt really work, plus there's the fact that even though the Angels "never exsisted" the ship was still crashed, River was still sent to stop the Angel, and presumably the people that picked her up still remembered the mission. Basically the whole episdoe contradicts itself. Not to mention the Doctor at some stage going to come back in time to talk to Amy durign an event that technically never happened.

    Not necessarily, I don't think it was actually stated that the Angels caused the crash, certainly implied, but remember Moffatt is a master of obfuscation (River and Ten in SitL), and drops "get out of jail free" lines in here and there to give plot escape routes. First time around you definitely get the impression it's "all wrong", I certainly did. Then I watched it all again, and noticed these points...

    River: "I needed to see what was in your vault. Do you all know what's down there? Any of you? Because I'll tell you something, this ship won't reach it's destination"

    Now, first assumption we make is she is talking about the Angel, fair enough, that was probably "part" of what she was talking about, but there could have been other important things in there, but she did NOT name the Angel. She seemed VERY sure that the ship wouldn't reach its destination, which is an odd conclusion to come to when she has video footage of a very dormant Angel, maybe she knew there was something ELSE in the vault that might cause that, something she was SURE would happen.

    Then the next part -
    River: "What caused it to crash? Not me!" (meaning when she ejected)
    Doctor: "Nah, the airlock would have sealed seconds after you blew it. According to the home box the warp engines had a phase shift. No survivors." River: "A phase shift would have to be sabotage. I did warn them."
    Doctor: "About what?"
    River: "At least the building was empty" (evading the question)

    Now again, the assumption is that it was the Angel BUT we haven't had any other reference to them being able to affect a phase shift so it isn't a "smoking gun" of an Angel having caused it. She also didn't name the Angel as the cause OR reveal to the Doctor what exactly she was warning them about (evaded the question). Bearing in mind "no survivors" the reason she may be being "coy" is that herself or the Church may well be implicated in either being responsible for the crash, or having been in a positon to stop it but chose not to in order to be able to catch ths ship and neutralise the Angel. Not mentioning the Angel to the Doctor at this point is not because she's trying to hide its presence from him, as less than 1 minute later she reveals to him there is something in there that can never die, and a minute after that she names them explicitly. So NO explicit naming of the Angels as the cause, and possible covering up of the real cause.

    Then later -
    Father Octavian: "Our mission is to neutralise the Angel and to make this wreckage safe"

    Now the Angel bit we understand, but "make this wreckage safe"? If this is a dead planet, why do they need to make the wreckage safe, why not simply neutralise the Angel and leave? Or just blow the whole ship up once they're done to protect possible future explorers (who do so at their own risk, and usually with caution anyway). No they had to "make it safe" as part of the mission, so perhaps there is a second mission to obtain something else in the vault, which couldn't be mounted until the Angel is out of the way (understandably).

    So we have no confirmation that the Angel caused the crash OR that it was the sole target of the reason to intercept the Byzantium. So their removal could still leave a crashed ship and a mission to intercept it, but without the presence of the Angel it would be "make this wreckage safe" (definitely a secondary stated mission objective) and perhaps deal with whatever else might have been in the vault.

    And now a little more "get out of jail free" -
    Amy: "Then why do I remember it all? Those guys on the ship didn't remember each other"
    Doctor: "You're a Time Traveller now Amy. It changes the way you see the universe"

    This is no big surprise since, with the exception of Bad Wolf, Doctor Who narrative for the TARDIS crew is "First time around" in that they see and remember events as the story unfolds, whereas folks that go "the long way" only remember the final version with all the consequences of what the TARDIS crew did. However I think this is the first time it has been referred to in the show.

    River: "I'm a complicated Space Time event too"

    So this "almost" confirms what we suspected that River may be a time traveller too, and would be able to remember the whole story, including the presence of the Angels. This also gives The Doctor capability to revisit this time point, for reasons we don't yet know, as he also knows the full sequence of events. The real question is have we seen them all yet, or without him going back with jacket and sleeves rolled up, did a different outcome happen that we have yet to see? Having watched that scene again I do think it is deliberate, especially because of the line "later" as the Doctor first leaves her, being a nice piece of dramatic irony that the next conversation she has with the Doctor is with a later Doctor. HOWEVER, one off screen point to remember, this was the first story shot, this IS an entirely new production team and there were stories early on that there were production problems and some scenes were reshot, this could be nothing more than a bad continuity gaff on an early remount when they weren't up to speed.
    Edited on 05/05/2010 12:50pm
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    TOCM19

    [135]May 5, 2010
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    You know, I really hope that it was something else, and that it'll be explained, but I still think if the Angels didn't exsist then Amy was never sitting on that rock with her eyes closed. I mean yes she remembers it, but there's no actually point in the spac/time continuum where that is "happeneing" becasue time has been re-written.
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    steamheaduk

    [136]May 5, 2010
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    TOCM19 wrote:
    You know, I really hope that it was something else, and that it'll be explained, but I still think if the Angels didn't exsist then Amy was never sitting on that rock with her eyes closed. I mean yes she remembers it, but there's no actually point in the spac/time continuum where that is "happeneing" becasue time has been re-written.

    But then you are then assuming that it can't be re-rewritten, or that we are watching wholely the "first time round" by the end of this episode. If it IS a later Doctor going back to her, then there must be a reason for it (you'd hope), and the only one I can think of is that he was doing something to either put things back on track that got altered later on, or correct a bad decision, i.e. without him going back, the Angels don't get wiped from existence, or maybe Amy dies (or worse). I have to say it does LOOK deliberate, in that you get a close up of him with sleeves rolled up, that shot DOESN'T need to be there for any of the narrative, and the focus is pulled and the colour subdued so unless you are REALLY watching you don't spot the jacket, but it IS there. The scene is shot really tightly as if to hide that this isn't the Doctor in long sleeves and no jacket. BUT there is a dialog clue in "Later", AND the Doctor's demeanour changes massively from when he leaves to when he returns, when he left he was very excited, when he clasps her hands he is VERY serious. It is as if he knows there is a horrible consequence about to befall her if she doesn't "get it", which becomes very noted when she doesn't remember, he looks like he's remembering something dreadful.

    Also the dialog "you need to start trusting me it's never been more important" - bit of an odd line, unless later Amy doesn't trust him and things go wrong. And Doctor: "Remember what I told you when you were seven", Amy: "What did you tell me?" Doctor: "No" (looks very upset) "that's not the point, you have to remember". So what he actually said to her at 7 wasn't the point, the point was that she remembered, which suggests to me that he knows something is coming up that could affect her memories of the past and he's trying to re-inforce things here.

    One other scene that I think is key here is towards the end where he smiles and says "Time can be rewritten" which I think is Moffatt's way of saying "watch out kids I'm going to mess with your heads", and looks like he's throwing out the "I can't cross my own timeline rule" (which would be necesary to do for this scene to be a later Doctor), which I've always thought was a boring rule anyway. Time travel stories are always much more fun when you can, but equally I can see the writer's dilemma, because it can then sometimes be too hard to sell "peril".
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    TOCM19

    [137]May 5, 2010
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    [QUOTE="steamheaduk"]

    TOCM19 wrote:
    But then you are then assuming that it can't be re-rewritten, or that we are watching wholely the "first time round" by the end of this episode. If it IS a later Doctor going back to her, then there must be a reason for it (you'd hope), and the only one I can think of is that he was doing something to either put things back on track that got altered later on, or correct a bad decision, i.e. without him going back, the Angels don't get wiped from existence.


    I agree, he could have "fixed" things, somehow telling Amy to remember caused the Angels to get erased, but if that's true there should never be an explination on screen, since things are "fixed" the doctor won't have a reason to go do it (and indeed can't becasue theres no Angels to confront any more)

    Edited on 05/05/2010 2:59pm
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    thetruesora

    [138]May 5, 2010
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    We all know The Doctor has trouble with not interfering with things and so he worked out he could try and give her a little "push" in her past to change her timeline enough to stop a terrible situation. It must of been very important that he did it and the only solution involved crossing his own timeline.
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    rickycal78

    [139]May 5, 2010
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    steamheaduk wrote:
    Then later - Father Octavian: "Our mission is to neutralise the Angel and to make this wreckage safe" Now the Angel bit we understand, but "make this wreckage safe"? If this is a dead planet, why do they need to make the wreckage safe, why not simply neutralise the Angel and leave?.



    Father Octavian tells them that the planet has been terraformed and there's either 6 million, or 6 billion (can't remember which) colonists on the planet.


    Edited on 05/05/2010 8:57pm
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    steamheaduk

    [140]May 6, 2010
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    rickycal78 wrote:

    steamheaduk wrote:
    Then later - Father Octavian: "Our mission is to neutralise the Angel and to make this wreckage safe" Now the Angel bit we understand, but "make this wreckage safe"? If this is a dead planet, why do they need to make the wreckage safe, why not simply neutralise the Angel and leave?.



    Father Octavian tells them that the planet has been terraformed and there's either 6 million, or 6 billion (can't remember which) colonists on the planet.



    Which, if the crash wasn't caused by the Angels still leaves them with a reason to be at the Byzantium once the Angels never existed.
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