I'm just gonna quote various people and give my thoughts. I won't quote the exact person so sorry about that. Heads up, I loved the episode. Very good entertainment. I did start to feel that the Pandorica could end up being a prisoner for The Doctor and ended up being correct =) Anyways, here goes!
Wasn't the scene at the end with what appeared to all of existence around Earth exploding mean the TARDIS was already in the process of exploding? That way of thinking, maybe it's kind of an implosion over a period of time and the last thing to disappear is the immediate area around the TARDIS. Outward in.
| 2 wrote: |
| How does Auton Rory have the memories of Real Rory? That makes no sense.(and others like it) |
As others have said, they got the psychic residue from Amy. How they are so up to date on The Doctor seems kind of obvious to me. Not all of those races are capable of time travel. This occurred in 102 AD. Rory died in 2020(?). The Silurian's were part of the Alliance. To insure the plan would work, they knew what would need to be done i the future to ensure The Doctor is imprisoned in the past. Another paradox, I suppose.
| 3 wrote: |
| There was a photo of Rory dressed as a Roman in the house. |
I may have to go back and rewatch, but it looked like they were in the TARDIS. If so, that would mean it was taken after the events now, placed in the Roman book as a memory when Amy and Rory (auton or not) are returned to their Wedding Day. Would that evidence stay there since it was taken after he was erased from existence so it didn't exist yet. However, since it was taken yet, until his return, it would be a future event, thus remained.
| 4 wrote: |
| Also, how did the cyberman function without a brain? (and skull and Cybus questions) |
Well as overs have said, would probably have fail-safes to survive if the human aspect is dead. We also aren't fully aware they are Cybus. They just use the Cybus design. If Mondasian(?) Cybermen can time travel, it's possible they traveled to a point where Cybus cyber-men existed in our universe and copied the design. Maybe Cybus' models were more advanced in some aspects and they adopted them. The skull could be a Roman soldier or another person. If the original mind got trapped down there and someone discovered it and was taken over, the entire skull of the new person would also exist. Eventually, it may die as well and we get the scene we saw.
| 5 wrote: |
| For example River when back to 2010 so why was Amy's bedroom that of a child's : the books the models, etc. |
At the end of the first episode, we also saw the models as well. She had afascinationwith The Doctor all her life. It's not too hard to imagine. Also, she left with The Doctor on the 25th, River is there the next day, no one had put them away yet. River didn't go to 2010 by choice. She meant to assist The Doctor but someone took control of the TARDIS and brought it to 2010. Probably the same person as the voice, the person who wants to frame The Doctor by exploding the TARDIS.
| 6 wrote: |
| Of course, the question remains, for me, WHEN did the oppotunity arise for that particular memory to be "read"? She hasn't been anywhere without the Doctor being around, unless you count in 'The Lodger' when she was flying the TARDIS by herself.... Unless the Nestene have somehow taken over the TARDIS. lol |
When, you ask? ALL HER LIFE! This alliance formed before 102AD (as some members can't time travel) That means they hadmillenniato plan this after the fact. Prisoner Zero with Amy as a child to an adult, who knows before that. All the alien races they encounter after that could all have been part of the secret alliance set to keep tabs on The Doctor and Amy. When you think about the force of the alliance and The Doctor's travels with Amy in all different time periods, it it amazing at the sheer planning and scale of the Pandorica.
| 7 wrote: |
| Another Rory quip |
Rory disappeared from existence outside the TARDIS. Amy was gradually forgetting in the TARDIS with the ring and The Doctor. My thoughts are this. Amy forgot Rory because he was so deeply connected to her timeline, she's human, and she has memories. The ring stayed because it is an item, has no memories, and existed outside of time in the TARDIS. The Doctor remembers because he's a Time Lord. I could also say that it's because of all the TARDIS radiation making him immune to any kind of change in time. We know from Amy that the memories are slowly forgotten if not remembered. Whats to say that The Doctor is constantly remembering Rory to keep him alive and is just so developed as a species that he doesn't lose the focus to remember.
Just as TheDoctor never forgot so Rory was never truly forgotten, this allows the cracks (ha!) for Amy to. As long as nothing is completely forgotten, it's never completely gone. Also, this whole scenario is based on her memories of him. The alliance kept all these, they all knew Rory existed. It would seem they kept track of him until he died. At that instant, they transferred all memory of him into a Roman auton as a strategy. Because technically the auton is just a robot with implanted memories, nothing of it should disappear. The essence of him (as being real) allowed Amy to better remember what she clearly couldn't get a good grasp on earlier after losing him in the TARDIS.
| 7 wrote: |
| It seems the Tardis exploding is the only thing causing the cracks. But there was a frickin' time war, where i assume lots of tardises exploded at some point, right? I thought some kind of chain explosion or whatever...something much bigger than just one lonely exploding tardis causes the cracks, because one tardis blowing up should not have such an effect...what do you think? |
We don't know how the TARDIS explodes to cause the cracks. A TARDIS simply being blown up may just cause a simple explosion while whoever is controlling the TARDIS, saying darkness fails, mastermind of the alliance(?), etc, could be trying to tamper with the TARDIS for his own end and causes acatastrophicfailure. Similar to Smith and Jones were an MRI machine is made capable of eradicating all life within 250,000 miles. Normally it's fine, tampered with though, it can be deadly!
| 9 wrote: |
| What's River doing!? And wait, the Doctor DID teach her to fly the TARDIS? It can't have just been a joke, or else they wouldn't have pointed it out so clearly here, that line must mean something... |
May not fully understand your question but they did mention this again about him teaching her. She is trying to stop and land the TARDIS when he is like "I thought you knew how to fly it" and she responds "I DO! You taught me!" Something like that anyways. Although, this just proves it'll all be alright since a future Doctor taught her. Then again, everything points to this being nothing but another drop in the bucket. I wouldn't mind a story that could really end it all with no other evidence to prove otherwise until it happens. It's a bit "eh" to be all excited for what may happen when you know it'll be fine because this, this, and this happens in the future.
| 10 wrote: |
| This may be totally random, or it may have already been brought up in another thread (there's ALOT of posts on this forum!) but I think it really stood out when the Dalek said that "Only The Doctor can pilot the TARDIS" and then The Doctor mentioned that he wasn't IN the TARDIS. That screams out to me that River Song IS The Doctor. That would explain the diary she has (since a couple of previous Doctors have been shown to keep diaries), how she is able to pilot the TARDIS so well, and how she has the sonic screwdriver. Also, it would explain how she knows The Doctor's real name. It COULD even explain how she is responsible for "killing" The Doctor (which has been implied, but not explicitly stated I don't think) if she were to be The Doctor's last regeneration. Her death would result in the death of The Doctor. |
I'll give a small bit of credence to this post. Reading it, I can see how River could be The Doctor. Do we know what happens when a TARDIS appears at the same area of the same TARDIS? Would it become the same TARDIS since only the one exists in this universe? If so, maybe River (12?) went to a point in time that was occupied by another Doctor (any, really) and left the combined TARDIS with the current Doctor. She then used her future knowledge to help the current one naturally (without the TARDIS). Explains the piloting, diary to keep it together, real name, ability to use a sonic screwdriver, etc. When The Doctor regenerates, he's effectively killing himself. I believe another Doctor stated it. Same body, same memories, different mind, different personality. Losing the TARDIS could also be because of the explosion. We don't know the features of the Pandorica. Does it freeze him? Slow him down? Would he regenerate inside if he slowly died? What if he is slowly aging, eventually it's opened, thousands of years later, he is weak, regenerates into River.Oh! What if, now, what if, he was let out in around 5100. We know River is a prisoner. We don't know why. And about not being discovered as the future Doctor by 11, we know Time Lords can change their genetic makeup, it could be possible for them to change their gender along with their race.Maybe The Doctor received a lighter sentence and was able to be in a regular prison and help when called on. I am giving more belief into this theory as I type it! There's a rebuttal to this already but I figured I'd give the "why it could be true" side.
| 11 wrote: |
| Done with the quote and replying, time for final thoughts and rap-up. Look, 11 quotes! Get it? |
I got a bit carried away here, threw in an extra theory at the end of that. Here is my final thoughts.
We have heard the phrase "The Doctor in the TARDIS" throughout the season. It could be like The Doctor Donna. The Doctor thought the Ood were talking about both of them when they actually foresaw a fusion of sorts between Donna and 10. The same could happen here. The Doctor in the TARDIS isn't 11, but actually River. If it was indeed talking about the explosion, it would seem to be true since we see River there at the very end. Or could just be a bit mocking. "Oh the mighty Doctor in his mystical TARDIS doesn't know what is going to happen. Get this man a clue!"
So, Amy didn't know the Daleks, this we know. It was strange. I guess we were suppose to attribute it to a crack in time like what happened to the Angels. However, that is impossible. The Daleks were sent back to the void. They all didn't fall through a crack. They weren't erased. If the TARDIS exploding causes all of existence to cease to exist, that would include the void? It's suppose to exist outside time and space. I suppose it could, but could a crack be able to erase the entire void containing the Daleks and Cybermen?What about alternate universes and the other Cybus Cyberman there?It seems Amy didn't know what a Cyberman was either when they encountered the cyber arm of laser mayhem. Pretty sure that going into the void doesn't erase what's inside from existence itself. Maybe cracks can appear in places other than our universe or very greatly in size (to what we've seen?)
One last crazy theory. We know the time cracks are from the explosion and that it originates from the TARDIS. It also appears that the cracks are following The Doctor. We also know the TARDIS has some a memory bank of some kind and can be locked between places. Maybe the cracks aren't following The Doctor so much as they are revisiting previous destinations of his. While we see them as happening now, for the TARDIS explosion, they have already happened. It wouldn't explain all the cracks though.
Ack, so many questions need answers!Hope people find my discussion contributing and useful! Can't wait for the finale! =)
EDIT
| 12 aka River Song wrote: |
| And I still say the Cracks in Time is one of the most plot hole-filled story devices I've ever seen. Even if only the Doctor ever remembered him, then clearly he existed. And he shouldn't have even been able to come back. If he ceased to exist, then that picture would never have existed, and there'd be nothing to make a fake-Rory out of. It's all just a mess. Now maybe if what it did was more of a combo of death by Weeping Angel and Perception filter, we'd be cool. You know, they disappear in time to who-knows-when, and then add a little dash of Perception filter theory so that nobody questions the fact that they're gone. You know? That'd be far more believable. I mean, after all, the Cracks in Time are described by the Doctor himself as being a place where two pieces of time/space that should never meet, do meet. Maybe when you get sucked in by it, you just get shunted off to the other time/space spot. I don't know. I just know I hate plot holes. |
First, I don't believe 12 is River, I just had to do another edit and quote quickly and wanted to get something memorable. I really should have had each number 1-11 be the different Doctor's real names but I'm a bit lazy.* Anyways, a memory isn't necessarily the proof of existence. Let's take A Beautiful Mind. If I have hallucinations all my life, years later, if I can clearly remember them, does that make those people exist? It's just a fabricated memory at that point because of delusions. What would happen if a Weeping Angel touched someone partially absorbed by a crack? And how did they get sucked up so fast. Do they have such a strong gravitational pull depending on the crack or location? I know 11 turned off the gravity but at the rate we see Rory getting absorbed (albeit at the center of the Earth), it seems like a significant difference.
Do you think a perception filter could hide someones death when you're looking right at them. We know in Venice, they were working before humans actually saw them. However, perception filters are meant to trick you in the corner of the eye, where you don't want to look. If Rory was dying, they would be focused on him, probably rendering it useless. I don't see how one could hide the Angel, pretend Rory was gobbled up by a crack, and erase his existence (unless you want to leave that out).
Time & space crack does seem to signify that going through it sends you to a different time and space (logically where the crack originated from, so 06/26/2010) They aren't plot holes exactly as they do have explanations, no matter how far fetched. A true plot hole is when something happens and there is absolutely nothing to every explain it within the possibilities of realm of where it occurs (TV show, movie, book, etc). Also, Prisoner Zero traveled through one of these open cracks. Even before being opened, the voice of the Atraxi came from the other side. Perhaps the cracks caused by the explosion fracture and connect two points in space/time. We know the one that absorbed Rory was connected to the TARDIS explosion.
*I edited all the quotes with the Doctor's names. Go me! Well, I tried. The forums were being lame with the text =( Maybe later...And if there is any messed up formatting (i.e. no spaces), the forums are really finicky for me right now, so deal =)
Also, I won't be editing this after any replys so it stays the same for anyone who sees. Most of my edits are minor touchups. Some stuff I have found answers to but will leave up to keep it consistent. Enjoy reading this lengthy post, and enjoy the finale next week!
Edited on 06/20/2010 1:16am
Edited 5 total times.