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5x12: The Pandorica Opens (19/6/2010)

  • Avatar of PsyduckRanger

    PsyduckRanger

    [81]Jun 19, 2010
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    Ravenite wrote:
    Hurrah! Someone else who hates the Glee version of Don't Stop Believin'!


    It's just...non-stop! All the time! Everywhere! There's no escape!

    Incidentally, the school in question is an infant school - the oldest kids there are 7. Why are they watching Glee!?
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    bluecatcinema

    [82]Jun 19, 2010
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    Farmerluk2 wrote:
    So what are we guessing for the voice? Dream lord? Valeyard? What?


    I'm guessing the Black Guardian. Who else has the power to control the TARDIS like that?
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    bluecatcinema

    [83]Jun 19, 2010
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    PsyduckRanger wrote:
    except the Cybus Cybermen...no explanation for how they're in the universe (none survived The Next Doctor, did they?)...I'd love to hear some comment that these are Mondasian...and just coincidentally look like that universe's


    I was thinking that myself. It would explain why they suddenly have "Cyber-ships" and the ability to attack even when they're in pieces.
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  • Avatar of PsyduckRanger

    PsyduckRanger

    [84]Jun 19, 2010
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    Now that the general squee of the fangasm is over (and the fact that it's taken this long for me to get through Confidential keeping it right on the front of my mind, as well as them talking about this), the whole illogicality of the removed from time/traces/Amy remembering it beginning to annoy me. It doesn't make sense. If he was removed from time, there'd be no traces, and nothing for Amy to remember, which was stated several times, she can't remember. Maybe I'm starting to see your point of view, Tocm. But whatever it is, I'm just hoping we get a decent explanation next week. Not so much removed from time as...

    But I do have a feeling that, sadly, Rory won't be back to stay...he's probably just dead and...somewhere...eaten by the TARDIS or something... (that could work, the cracks lead to the TARDIS, Rory's fallen into its time vortexesness, so the TARDIS, as sentience, is controlling who knows what and what's left behind...) ...gone for good...and next series will just have Amy and the Doctor...perhaps with less stops on modern day Earth...
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    mantez

    [85]Jun 19, 2010
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    The ring would still have been made so the ring would still exist somewhere which is why the ring didn't disappear. Why didn't it go back to where it belongs you ask? probably something to do with the Tardis.


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    copygeek

    [86]Jun 19, 2010
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    This may be totally random, or it may have already been brought up in another thread (there's ALOT of posts on this forum!) but I think it really stood out when the Dalek said that "Only The Doctor can pilot the TARDIS" and then The Doctor mentioned that he wasn't IN the TARDIS. That screams out to me that River Song IS The Doctor. That would explain the diary she has (since a couple of previous Doctors have been shown to keep diaries), how she is able to pilot the TARDIS so well, and how she has the sonic screwdriver. Also, it would explain how she knows The Doctor's real name. It COULD even explain how she is responsible for "killing" The Doctor (which has been implied, but not explicitly stated I don't think) if she were to be The Doctor's last regeneration. Her death would result in the death of The Doctor.


    But, maybe I'm reading too much into things! Undecided

    Edited on 06/19/2010 9:01pm
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    LittleHobbit13

    [87]Jun 20, 2010
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    @copygeek: You've got some inconsistencies in your logic there. She had a sonic screw driver because they Doctor knew how she was going to die. She keeps the diary so she can keep track of the Doctor. Remember, they meet in the reverse order. His first meeting was her last, and it's (as you caught) implied that perhaps her first is his last. And I know there are plenty of people that believe it's possible, but I just don't think Time Lords change gender when they regenerate. It's entirely possible that the writers just need you to take it at face value, and "go with the flow" when River says she can fly the TARDIS because the Doctor taught her how. It's not like he's able to fly it SOLELY because he's the Doctor. In the end, the TARDIS is a machine. Even Amy apparently knows bits and pieces of it, because the Doctor has taught her.
    Keep in mind here, they writers don't write in anything about future Doctors for a reason. They don't even plan for the next one until the current actor says he wants to leave.
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    LittleHobbit13

    [88]Jun 20, 2010
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    (Because I need to say it...) CALLED IT. I've known since the preview for the episode that the Doctor was going to be inside that Pandorica. "There was a goblin, or a trickster, or a warrior. A nameless terrible thing, soaked in the blood of a billion galaxies. The most feared being in all the cosmos. And nothing could stop it, or hold it, or reason with it. One day it would just drop out of the sky and tear down your world." As soon as a I heard it, I was like "...But doesn't that describe the Doctor?" The only thing I got wrong was that he wasn't originally in there. And yet, while normally I get upset if I'm able to predict THE plot twist of a show, I wasn't the least bit upset about this one.


    And maybe it's bad, but sad to say I cheered a little bit when Amy got shot. As I said in a post in another thread, she's such a pointless character. Unlike her great start as Amelia Pond, Amy Pond has nothing good to offer. It felt like the writers couldn't figure out what to do with her, and it annoyed me. I've had sneaking suspicions as to what it was that really irritated me about her character, and this episode confirmed them. The reason that Amy Pond feels like a failure to me as a companion is because she isn't a companion at all. She's a plot device. She's in this story not to journey with the Doctor, but to be his journey.


    And huzzah to Rory coming back, even in the fashion that he did. Two seconds on screen, and I was already emotionally attached to him again. That initial scene between him and the Doctor was brilliant. Loved it! So again, maybe it's bad, but while I was feeling absolutely terrible for him in this episode, I was cheering about Amy getting shot. I'm disappointed myself about having to feel that way, but I want to be able to love all the companions. They're what make the Doctor's journeys worth watching. Bring back Amelia Pond. Her I can get behind. Amy Pond is just pointless and directionless.


    And I still say the Cracks in Time is one of the most plot hole-filled story devices I've ever seen. Even if only the Doctor ever remembered him, then clearly he existed. And he shouldn't have even been able to come back. If he ceased to exist, then that picture would never have existed, and there'd be nothing to make a fake-Rory out of. It's all just a mess. Now maybe if what it did was more of a combo of death by Weeping Angel and Perception filter, we'd be cool. You know, they disappear in time to who-knows-when, and then add a little dash of Perception filter theory so that nobody questions the fact that they're gone. You know? That'd be far more believeable. I mean, after all, the Cracks in Time are described by the Doctor himself as being a place where two pieces of time/space that should never meet, do meet. Maybe when you get sucked in by it, you just get shunted off to the other time/space spot. I don't know. I just know I hate plot holes.



    All in all, this was a great episode. I got to be right about the Doctor and Pandorica relationship, I got to see Rory come back and have a well-written return, and I got to see Amy get shot. Works for me! Can't wait for next week!

    Edited on 06/20/2010 12:07am
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  • Avatar of wallross0001

    wallross0001

    [89]Jun 20, 2010
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    @ Little Hobbit(first post):


    That's quite right. And we saw Donna have a bit of a go at flying the TARDIS during the Sontaran Stratagem. The Doctor said that only he could fly it, really to get himself out of a tight spot. If River was the Doctor, then there'd be a fair bit of time continuum stuff going wrong whenever they'd meet. I also like the Jack Harkness reference in the episode. Good to know that the Moff hasn't completely ignored one of his own characters.

    Edited on 06/20/2010 12:00am
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  • Avatar of Omnislash28027

    Omnislash28027

    [90]Jun 20, 2010
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    I'm just gonna quote various people and give my thoughts. I won't quote the exact person so sorry about that. Heads up, I loved the episode. Very good entertainment. I did start to feel that the Pandorica could end up being a prisoner for The Doctor and ended up being correct =) Anyways, here goes!


    1 wrote:
    -And the TARIDS is about to explode with River inside


    Wasn't the scene at the end with what appeared to all of existence around Earth exploding mean the TARDIS was already in the process of exploding? That way of thinking, maybe it's kind of an implosion over a period of time and the last thing to disappear is the immediate area around the TARDIS. Outward in.


    2 wrote:
    How does Auton Rory have the memories of Real Rory? That makes no sense.(and others like it)


    As others have said, they got the psychic residue from Amy. How they are so up to date on The Doctor seems kind of obvious to me. Not all of those races are capable of time travel. This occurred in 102 AD. Rory died in 2020(?). The Silurian's were part of the Alliance. To insure the plan would work, they knew what would need to be done i the future to ensure The Doctor is imprisoned in the past. Another paradox, I suppose.


    3 wrote:
    There was a photo of Rory dressed as a Roman in the house.


    I may have to go back and rewatch, but it looked like they were in the TARDIS. If so, that would mean it was taken after the events now, placed in the Roman book as a memory when Amy and Rory (auton or not) are returned to their Wedding Day. Would that evidence stay there since it was taken after he was erased from existence so it didn't exist yet. However, since it was taken yet, until his return, it would be a future event, thus remained.


    4 wrote:
    Also, how did the cyberman function without a brain? (and skull and Cybus questions)


    Well as overs have said, would probably have fail-safes to survive if the human aspect is dead. We also aren't fully aware they are Cybus. They just use the Cybus design. If Mondasian(?) Cybermen can time travel, it's possible they traveled to a point where Cybus cyber-men existed in our universe and copied the design. Maybe Cybus' models were more advanced in some aspects and they adopted them. The skull could be a Roman soldier or another person. If the original mind got trapped down there and someone discovered it and was taken over, the entire skull of the new person would also exist. Eventually, it may die as well and we get the scene we saw.


    5 wrote:
    For example River when back to 2010 so why was Amy's bedroom that of a child's : the books the models, etc.


    At the end of the first episode, we also saw the models as well. She had afascinationwith The Doctor all her life. It's not too hard to imagine. Also, she left with The Doctor on the 25th, River is there the next day, no one had put them away yet. River didn't go to 2010 by choice. She meant to assist The Doctor but someone took control of the TARDIS and brought it to 2010. Probably the same person as the voice, the person who wants to frame The Doctor by exploding the TARDIS.


    6 wrote:
    Of course, the question remains, for me, WHEN did the oppotunity arise for that particular memory to be "read"? She hasn't been anywhere without the Doctor being around, unless you count in 'The Lodger' when she was flying the TARDIS by herself.... Unless the Nestene have somehow taken over the TARDIS. lol


    When, you ask? ALL HER LIFE! This alliance formed before 102AD (as some members can't time travel) That means they hadmillenniato plan this after the fact. Prisoner Zero with Amy as a child to an adult, who knows before that. All the alien races they encounter after that could all have been part of the secret alliance set to keep tabs on The Doctor and Amy. When you think about the force of the alliance and The Doctor's travels with Amy in all different time periods, it it amazing at the sheer planning and scale of the Pandorica.


    7 wrote:
    Another Rory quip


    Rory disappeared from existence outside the TARDIS. Amy was gradually forgetting in the TARDIS with the ring and The Doctor. My thoughts are this. Amy forgot Rory because he was so deeply connected to her timeline, she's human, and she has memories. The ring stayed because it is an item, has no memories, and existed outside of time in the TARDIS. The Doctor remembers because he's a Time Lord. I could also say that it's because of all the TARDIS radiation making him immune to any kind of change in time. We know from Amy that the memories are slowly forgotten if not remembered. Whats to say that The Doctor is constantly remembering Rory to keep him alive and is just so developed as a species that he doesn't lose the focus to remember.


    Just as TheDoctor never forgot so Rory was never truly forgotten, this allows the cracks (ha!) for Amy to. As long as nothing is completely forgotten, it's never completely gone. Also, this whole scenario is based on her memories of him. The alliance kept all these, they all knew Rory existed. It would seem they kept track of him until he died. At that instant, they transferred all memory of him into a Roman auton as a strategy. Because technically the auton is just a robot with implanted memories, nothing of it should disappear. The essence of him (as being real) allowed Amy to better remember what she clearly couldn't get a good grasp on earlier after losing him in the TARDIS.


    7 wrote:
    It seems the Tardis exploding is the only thing causing the cracks. But there was a frickin' time war, where i assume lots of tardises exploded at some point, right? I thought some kind of chain explosion or whatever...something much bigger than just one lonely exploding tardis causes the cracks, because one tardis blowing up should not have such an effect...what do you think?


    We don't know how the TARDIS explodes to cause the cracks. A TARDIS simply being blown up may just cause a simple explosion while whoever is controlling the TARDIS, saying darkness fails, mastermind of the alliance(?), etc, could be trying to tamper with the TARDIS for his own end and causes acatastrophicfailure. Similar to Smith and Jones were an MRI machine is made capable of eradicating all life within 250,000 miles. Normally it's fine, tampered with though, it can be deadly!


    9 wrote:
    What's River doing!? And wait, the Doctor DID teach her to fly the TARDIS? It can't have just been a joke, or else they wouldn't have pointed it out so clearly here, that line must mean something...


    May not fully understand your question but they did mention this again about him teaching her. She is trying to stop and land the TARDIS when he is like "I thought you knew how to fly it" and she responds "I DO! You taught me!" Something like that anyways. Although, this just proves it'll all be alright since a future Doctor taught her. Then again, everything points to this being nothing but another drop in the bucket. I wouldn't mind a story that could really end it all with no other evidence to prove otherwise until it happens. It's a bit "eh" to be all excited for what may happen when you know it'll be fine because this, this, and this happens in the future.


    10 wrote:
    This may be totally random, or it may have already been brought up in another thread (there's ALOT of posts on this forum!) but I think it really stood out when the Dalek said that "Only The Doctor can pilot the TARDIS" and then The Doctor mentioned that he wasn't IN the TARDIS. That screams out to me that River Song IS The Doctor. That would explain the diary she has (since a couple of previous Doctors have been shown to keep diaries), how she is able to pilot the TARDIS so well, and how she has the sonic screwdriver. Also, it would explain how she knows The Doctor's real name. It COULD even explain how she is responsible for "killing" The Doctor (which has been implied, but not explicitly stated I don't think) if she were to be The Doctor's last regeneration. Her death would result in the death of The Doctor.


    I'll give a small bit of credence to this post. Reading it, I can see how River could be The Doctor. Do we know what happens when a TARDIS appears at the same area of the same TARDIS? Would it become the same TARDIS since only the one exists in this universe? If so, maybe River (12?) went to a point in time that was occupied by another Doctor (any, really) and left the combined TARDIS with the current Doctor. She then used her future knowledge to help the current one naturally (without the TARDIS). Explains the piloting, diary to keep it together, real name, ability to use a sonic screwdriver, etc. When The Doctor regenerates, he's effectively killing himself. I believe another Doctor stated it. Same body, same memories, different mind, different personality. Losing the TARDIS could also be because of the explosion. We don't know the features of the Pandorica. Does it freeze him? Slow him down? Would he regenerate inside if he slowly died? What if he is slowly aging, eventually it's opened, thousands of years later, he is weak, regenerates into River.Oh! What if, now, what if, he was let out in around 5100. We know River is a prisoner. We don't know why. And about not being discovered as the future Doctor by 11, we know Time Lords can change their genetic makeup, it could be possible for them to change their gender along with their race.Maybe The Doctor received a lighter sentence and was able to be in a regular prison and help when called on. I am giving more belief into this theory as I type it! There's a rebuttal to this already but I figured I'd give the "why it could be true" side.


    11 wrote:
    Done with the quote and replying, time for final thoughts and rap-up. Look, 11 quotes! Get it?


    I got a bit carried away here, threw in an extra theory at the end of that. Here is my final thoughts.


    We have heard the phrase "The Doctor in the TARDIS" throughout the season. It could be like The Doctor Donna. The Doctor thought the Ood were talking about both of them when they actually foresaw a fusion of sorts between Donna and 10. The same could happen here. The Doctor in the TARDIS isn't 11, but actually River. If it was indeed talking about the explosion, it would seem to be true since we see River there at the very end. Or could just be a bit mocking. "Oh the mighty Doctor in his mystical TARDIS doesn't know what is going to happen. Get this man a clue!"


    So, Amy didn't know the Daleks, this we know. It was strange. I guess we were suppose to attribute it to a crack in time like what happened to the Angels. However, that is impossible. The Daleks were sent back to the void. They all didn't fall through a crack. They weren't erased. If the TARDIS exploding causes all of existence to cease to exist, that would include the void? It's suppose to exist outside time and space. I suppose it could, but could a crack be able to erase the entire void containing the Daleks and Cybermen?What about alternate universes and the other Cybus Cyberman there?It seems Amy didn't know what a Cyberman was either when they encountered the cyber arm of laser mayhem. Pretty sure that going into the void doesn't erase what's inside from existence itself. Maybe cracks can appear in places other than our universe or very greatly in size (to what we've seen?)


    One last crazy theory. We know the time cracks are from the explosion and that it originates from the TARDIS. It also appears that the cracks are following The Doctor. We also know the TARDIS has some a memory bank of some kind and can be locked between places. Maybe the cracks aren't following The Doctor so much as they are revisiting previous destinations of his. While we see them as happening now, for the TARDIS explosion, they have already happened. It wouldn't explain all the cracks though.


    Ack, so many questions need answers!Hope people find my discussion contributing and useful! Can't wait for the finale! =)





    EDIT


    12 aka River Song wrote:
    And I still say the Cracks in Time is one of the most plot hole-filled story devices I've ever seen. Even if only the Doctor ever remembered him, then clearly he existed. And he shouldn't have even been able to come back. If he ceased to exist, then that picture would never have existed, and there'd be nothing to make a fake-Rory out of. It's all just a mess. Now maybe if what it did was more of a combo of death by Weeping Angel and Perception filter, we'd be cool. You know, they disappear in time to who-knows-when, and then add a little dash of Perception filter theory so that nobody questions the fact that they're gone. You know? That'd be far more believable. I mean, after all, the Cracks in Time are described by the Doctor himself as being a place where two pieces of time/space that should never meet, do meet. Maybe when you get sucked in by it, you just get shunted off to the other time/space spot. I don't know. I just know I hate plot holes.


    First, I don't believe 12 is River, I just had to do another edit and quote quickly and wanted to get something memorable. I really should have had each number 1-11 be the different Doctor's real names but I'm a bit lazy.* Anyways, a memory isn't necessarily the proof of existence. Let's take A Beautiful Mind. If I have hallucinations all my life, years later, if I can clearly remember them, does that make those people exist? It's just a fabricated memory at that point because of delusions. What would happen if a Weeping Angel touched someone partially absorbed by a crack? And how did they get sucked up so fast. Do they have such a strong gravitational pull depending on the crack or location? I know 11 turned off the gravity but at the rate we see Rory getting absorbed (albeit at the center of the Earth), it seems like a significant difference.


    Do you think a perception filter could hide someones death when you're looking right at them. We know in Venice, they were working before humans actually saw them. However, perception filters are meant to trick you in the corner of the eye, where you don't want to look. If Rory was dying, they would be focused on him, probably rendering it useless. I don't see how one could hide the Angel, pretend Rory was gobbled up by a crack, and erase his existence (unless you want to leave that out).


    Time & space crack does seem to signify that going through it sends you to a different time and space (logically where the crack originated from, so 06/26/2010) They aren't plot holes exactly as they do have explanations, no matter how far fetched. A true plot hole is when something happens and there is absolutely nothing to every explain it within the possibilities of realm of where it occurs (TV show, movie, book, etc). Also, Prisoner Zero traveled through one of these open cracks. Even before being opened, the voice of the Atraxi came from the other side. Perhaps the cracks caused by the explosion fracture and connect two points in space/time. We know the one that absorbed Rory was connected to the TARDIS explosion.


    *I edited all the quotes with the Doctor's names. Go me! Well, I tried. The forums were being lame with the text =( Maybe later...And if there is any messed up formatting (i.e. no spaces), the forums are really finicky for me right now, so deal =)


    Also, I won't be editing this after any replys so it stays the same for anyone who sees. Most of my edits are minor touchups. Some stuff I have found answers to but will leave up to keep it consistent. Enjoy reading this lengthy post, and enjoy the finale next week!

    Edited on 06/20/2010 1:16am
    Edited 5 total times.
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  • Avatar of Eric10301

    Eric10301

    [91]Jun 20, 2010
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    Interesting episode but it's just going to end with some sort of re-set button being pushed. The universe won't be destroyed, Amy won't be shot, the doctor will get out of the prison. I hate when they do these grandiose season finales and force themselves into a must reset situation for the show to continue.

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  • Avatar of Omnislash28027

    Omnislash28027

    [92]Jun 20, 2010
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    Eric10301 wrote:
    Interesting episode but it's just going to end with some sort of re-set button being pushed. The universe won't be destroyed, Amy won't be shot, the doctor will get out of the prison. I hate when they do these grandiose season finales and force themselves into a must reset situation for the show to continue.



    I also do find them a bit "meh" as I said in my massive posting above but it doesn't necessarily require a reset. Amy wasn't necessarily killed. We don't know what those guns do. Could be tranqs like whatever the cyber-head shot. The Doctor could easily be released by an outside force. If it was opened once to let him in, it can be opened a second time to let him out.


    I do find it strange how some cracks connect different points in space/time while some just lead to erasure from existence. Does that mean part of existence would survive (i.e. connecting parts?), or some would go to the void (there will be silence). So much to figure out.


    Also, why didn't they just kill The Doctor? That's their grand plan. That's what some of the races have been trying to do forever. They had him fully tricked, surrounded, defenseless, and without a plan. The romans reveal their gun hands, and what do they do? GRAB HIM! Maybe all the attempts on his life and world domination were all part of the alliance plot to seal him in a giant box. Just as planned.


    And if any of the alliance time traveled, they'd know what is still to be expected out of The Doctor in the future. They would maintain that alliance for all time, not changing to avoid/conquer The Doctor in his past/their future? Has this alliance been in place in all of The Doctor's travels after 102AD, or whenever they formed it? Seems logical but unlikely.


    If the Pandorica has all those fail-safes, can it also exist in a Void-like state as one of them? Outside space/time? Would The Doctor live an eternity inside before the TARDIS finishes exploding? And why a box? Sure, part of Amy's memories, tricking The Doctor, etc, but seriously? A box? Why not the asteroid prison for the devil-like creature. I mean, he seemed far more dangerous on his own. Not to say The Doctor isn't brilliant, fantastic, or whatever, but he's much less menacing solely by himself than with his box and screwdriver. I suggest the Pandorica mixed with Satan's Asteroid. Sounds like overkill which means it still wouldn't be enough. =)


    Wow, I'm just rambling on and on. So many things to discuss. I look forward to it! Thank TARDIS that there is an edit button. Such a handy feature.

    Edited on 06/20/2010 1:34am
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  • Avatar of kompongwho

    kompongwho

    [93]Jun 20, 2010
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    Two quick observations:

    1. The photo of Rory and Amy.
    She was wearing the kissogram police uniform; he the centurion uniform. I assumed she'd got him to dress up, just like he had to dress as the Doctor when a kid. That memory in Amy's mind created centurion Rory in 102 AD

    2. When River tried to take off in the Tardis - she left the brakes on!!!
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  • Avatar of Omnislash28027

    Omnislash28027

    [94]Jun 20, 2010
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    kompongwho wrote:
    Two quick observations:


    1. The photo of Rory and Amy.


    She was wearing the kissogram police uniform; he the centurion uniform. I assumed she'd got him to dress up, just like he had to dress as the Doctor when a kid. That memory in Amy's mind created centurion Rory in 102 AD


    2. When River tried to take off in the Tardis - she left the brakes on!!!


    I'll have to go back and rewatch this soon. If the picture is from before his death and existence was erased, it doesn't make sense it's there as has been stated. However, let's say it can be, does that mean the alliance, in all it's wisdom, decided that Rory was going to be an auton before he was even born? Or was it on the fly once they received the latest intel that he died. Although, with time travelling available somewhere in that alliance (likely), it's possible a group went into the future contacting future alliance members until they discovered he died. Transmitted or took that info back and decided to do it as part of the plan.


    Another thing. since it's a plot that everything will be fine, if this alliance is made up of species from all over the universe, different times, etc, wouldn't one of them run into the 12th Doctor and report back? While one isn't confirmed, it would be logical he would eventually regenerate again. With the detailed knowledge from all the alliance, they should also have a general idea where the Doctor as they know him now would appear in various times. They should be able to find a way to cross-reference sitings of The 11th Doctor with areas The Doctor has currently visited. If any are not in The 11th Doctor's memories, they'd know the Pandorica failed.


    I get the alliances stance. The Doctor is the last Time Lord (what about Time Ladys? eh?) the smart thing is to prevent the sole pilot of the TARDIS from stepping foot into it. Killing him is a bit of a tossup. On one hand, it prevents him from ever doing anything again. On the other, if he isn't the cause of it, he may be the only one who can stop it. I believe that while Daleks, Cybermen, and a few other may have had the intention to kill him, other members of the alliance might have had the foresight to see him as a potential savior.


    It's obvious the problem isn't The Doctor or the TARDIS separately. It's using them both in conjunction that is the problem they see. They should have scanned and secured the TARDIS while hovering Earth (cause when is he not near it?) and then tossed him in the Pandorica. River would have told him it's gone but he still had no options and would have been thrown in the Pandorica all the same.


    To think, I am a smarter planner than the entire Whoverse made up of races of all types from all over the universe and in different times. It's quite crazy. Then again, it is fictional and I do have inside knowledge. Inside knowledge that anyone would at least be able to speculate in such a situation. I'm looking at you, Strategist Dalek >_

    Edited on 06/20/2010 3:45am
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  • Avatar of PsyduckRanger

    PsyduckRanger

    [95]Jun 20, 2010
    • member since: 03/04/06
    • level: 20
    • rank: Cow Bell
    • posts: 1,888
    Wow...seriously, Omnislash, I thought I was bad...I'd planned to try and respond to some of that...but just no. I'll respond to a couple though, simply...

    9 was my point, and yes, I heard that line, that's why I made that point. Back in The Time of Angels she jokes that The Doctor was busy when she learnt to fly the TARDIS. On its own, that's fine. We can just assume it was The Doctor, and she's just teasing him. But here she very clearly, explicitly states that he taught her. Such a prominent line, so near to that joke, I definitely think there's more to it than meets the eye.

    As for her leaving the brakes on, maybe she hasn't learnt to counter that yet. River didn't say in Flesh and Stone that was the last time she met him, just that it'd be the next time he meets her. Either that, or maybe she was just in a hurry.

    River isn't The Doctor. I've got no problem with him switching genders - although I doubt it'll happen any time soon - but there isn't a chance in hell that we've already seen The Doctor's final death.

    Anyway...I had more to say, but...seriously, I've got things to do. Lol.
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  • Avatar of EmotionMask

    EmotionMask

    [96]Jun 20, 2010
    • member since: 06/19/10
    • level: 2
    • rank: Sweat Hog
    • posts: 15

    Can we stop asking about Rory's memories and the cracks until the next episode has aired? There's probably more explination.

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  • Avatar of Omnislash28027

    Omnislash28027

    [97]Jun 20, 2010
    • member since: 04/21/04
    • level: 12
    • rank: Evil Bert
    • posts: 137
    PsyduckRanger wrote:
    Wow...seriously, Omnislash, I thought I was bad...I'd planned to try and respond to some of that...but just no. I'll respond to a couple though, simply...

    9 was my point, and yes, I heard that line, that's why I made that point. Back in The Time of Angels she jokes that The Doctor was busy when she learnt to fly the TARDIS. On its own, that's fine. We can just assume it was The Doctor, and she's just teasing him. But here she very clearly, explicitly states that he taught her. Such a prominent line, so near to that joke, I definitely think there's more to it than meets the eye.

    As for her leaving the brakes on, maybe she hasn't learnt to counter that yet. River didn't say in Flesh and Stone that was the last time she met him, just that it'd be the next time he meets her. Either that, or maybe she was just in a hurry.

    River isn't The Doctor. I've got no problem with him switching genders - although I doubt it'll happen any time soon - but there isn't a chance in hell that we've already seen The Doctor's final death.

    Anyway...I had more to say, but...seriously, I've got things to do. Lol.


    One last response before sleep. Man, I watched the episode and came here and my mind just kept going like CLICKCLICKCLICKCLICKCLICK! Next thing I know, it's 6 hours later and I have to be up soon =P

    Didn't she say that she had lessons from the best? All that experience over 900 years can account for that. Depending on the personality, some people will boast about themselves in 3rd person even tricking the other party.

    You bring an EXCELLENT point. All the time travel is a bit cuckoo trying to decipher it at once. If you remember in the library, The Doctor didn't know it was because of the brakes and River told him. Here, she is unaware of the brakes until he tells her. Thus, another paradox is born. If she told him before he knew and he told her before she knew, how did they figure out the sound was from the brakes!

    By final death, do you mean River's and the library? I may be uninformed but doesn't it say that Time Lords have 12 generations? Wouldn't a life in a virtual reality where you could do anything with your companions, forever, be tempting to someone like The Doctor? I will admit, I don't like the theory of River=Doctor because that seems like a boring life for her if she was him. In a jail cell for years (presumably), waiting for 11 to whisk her away. Knowing your fate, how it ends, and not wanting to do anything to stop it because that's how it happened. Outside of her adventures, seems a bit dull for someone like The Doctor.

    So you were Eccleston in my novel above. How does that make you feel? =P Maybe later, when you have the appropriate time to respond to my madness, I'll be able to read some new stuff I couldn't fathom at the moment.

    Btw, look in the quotes/t-shirts thread for hilarity and who/what is River Song for a bit of an expanded theory if you're bored. Also posted, what I believe is, a very sound theory on Weeping Angels and their smashability. I feel I should quote 10's final words right here...
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  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [98]Jun 20, 2010
    • member since: 08/30/07
    • level: 14
    • rank: Autobot
    • posts: 2,221
    Have just started watching, credits are rolling, would just like to say though:

    THETA SIGMA, awesome.
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  • Avatar of EmotionMask

    EmotionMask

    [99]Jun 20, 2010
    • member since: 06/19/10
    • level: 2
    • rank: Sweat Hog
    • posts: 15

    O_O


    Now I'm scared - http://www.thedailydust.co.uk/2010/06/15/nasa-discover-doctor-whos-crack-in-the-middle-of-the-milky-way/

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  • Avatar of shadowspy24

    shadowspy24

    [100]Jun 20, 2010
    • member since: 07/01/05
    • level: 11
    • rank: Red Shirted Lt.
    • posts: 1,226
    I'm glad I didn't come to these forums before watching the show as some ppl had already guessed who was inside and I was glad to be surprised within the episode. The only reason I didn't figure it out was cos like some other ppl I'm sure, I assumed that someone was already inside and was eagerly waiting to see what it was.

    The alliance seems rather dodgy though, especially if it is throughout time as the whole point of some of these races is to destroy and pick fights with other ppl (sontarans, daleks) so it is unlikely they will maintain an alliance throughout millenia. Some of the races don't have temporal capability but I'm guessing since it's an alliance, the daleks may share that tech for now.

    Obviously we know that they won't be able to contain the doctor forever but one thing I can't get my head round is why chose this incarnation of the doctor? They must have encountered his future versions as well, which brings me to a side point, that in the first episode, the atraxi have pics of all the docs through time but they haven't encounter 12 and 13? It's all so confusing with everyone being able to time travel and why the daleks don't just go to the future to see that the universe wasn't destroyed and how you can destroy the universe in the past..... arrrghhh. I do hope that they at the very least answer the questions they started though, like why Amy doesn't remember daleks and that second doctor theory in the angels episode. One thing for sure though, it was an entertaining episode that's for sure and I can't wait for the next episode.
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