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6x12: Closing Time (24/09/2011) [Spoilers]

  • Avatar of TOCM19

    TOCM19

    [41]Sep 27, 2011
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    There was a Cyberman in every house in the world in Doomsday right? Why didn't Craig know what they were?
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    thetruesora

    [42]Sep 27, 2011
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    While there was the "The Doctor's going to die" thoughts looming over the episode/Doctor himself, he was wanting this to be a more innocent/light/happier adventure for him to finish with before having to deal with heading off to face it. This is rather obvious when he's pretty much begging for Craig to stop being converted to a Cyberman.
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    rickyn2

    [43]Sep 27, 2011
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    Were they the Mondus Cybermen? They didn't look the same to me, and they certainly didn't look the the relic found in Season 1's Dalek. There also seemed to be a space for the "C" …

    RiftReaper wrote:


    TOCM19 wrote:
    My opinion of the episode in general. I didn't like it, i don't like the the slapstick way this Doctor behaves socially, I didn;t like the cybermat having a mouth, and having magical "disembodied arm" like powers (By which i mean being able to keep flying towards their faces"), I don't like this ridiculous "I speak baby" thing, I didn't like the mondus cybermen being around for thousands of years. that's confusing. I don't like the way the doctor seems to know how old he'll be when he dies, I didn't like the concept of this temporal alignment of galaxies thing because he has a time machine. And this whole thing about River having to be in a space suit underwater to kill the doctor just doesnt really seem to make any kind of sense. I just didn't like it.




    I think 200 years without a companion would properly make anyone behave a little different in social situations. (this of course assumes he is now 200 years older then when left Amy and Rory in the god complex episode, which seems to be the case as he has his cowboy hat and letters ready to go for his departure .


    But i do agree, this season has made me very uneasy. I knew it was River song in the suite since the first episode, so that doesn't surprise me. We have known for a while that river song is in jail for killing a "good man" since last season, so the only logical conclusion is she killed the doctor.


    The doctor has to get out of his own death somehow, or else how can we have another season ? I am just not sure how Moffot's gonna write his way of this predicament, so I am very excited to see next weeks final episode.



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  • Avatar of Ravenite

    Ravenite

    [44]Sep 27, 2011
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    TOCM19 wrote:
    Ravenite wrote:

    TOCM19 wrote:
    Yeah thoughts at a basic level doesn't equate to Stromageddon master of all. That take's some pretty complex thought processes, like making up a word from components of other words and recognising dramatic impact.


    You must really hate the Look Who's Talking movies.



    They are ridiculous comedy though, they do what they are trying to do.


    And ridiculous comedy was what the "talking baby" joke was. At some point you just have to lighten up.
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    Ravenite

    [45]Sep 27, 2011
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    And as for the Ganger theory, I'll have to watchThe Impossible Astronaut again but I'mpretty sure whenolder Canton shows up hesays that it wasn't a duplicate or clone of any kind, it wasdefinitely theDoctor.

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    PsyduckRanger

    [46]Sep 27, 2011
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    "Were they the Mondus Cybermen? They didn't look the same to me, and they certainly didn't look the the relic found in Season 1's Dalek. There also seemed to be a space for the "C" …"


    Whether or not they're Mondasian Cybermen they were never going to redesign them when they had perfectly good costumes. The head shown in series 1 was from OldWho, before they'd built these suits. The Mondasian Cybermen were redesigned several times anyway.


    In regards to the Ganger theory, not to mention Moffat saying it is definitely the Doctor in Confidential, and the fact that the Doctor was shown beginning to regenerate (there's no way Gangers could regenerate. Just no), and that they burned the body without it melting.

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    steamheaduk

    [47]Sep 28, 2011
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    I think they were intended to be Mondasian (or "this universe") Cybermen, rather than alternate ones, as they did NOT have the Cybus branding. Yes the design looked very similar to the Cybus ones (minus branding), but then that's how fantasy alternate universes work, things are very similar with only minor differences e.g. Alternate Brigadier has an eye patch and a scar, but otherwise the same, despite the fact that the point of split may be so far back it would be unlikely that the same people would even be born. It's a fictional shorthand the writers and producers expect us to take on board. Otherwise there'd be tons of exposition and more expense in cast, costume, make-up and sets.

    But the factors to consider are -
    1. We have Cybermats, never seen from the Cybus variants. OK in parallel spirit they could have developed them, but we have no evidence of that.
    2. The Cyber Conversion process is more far akin to the one seen in the old series, done slowly in stages, not the modern Edwards Scissorhands machine favoured by Cybus.
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    theportal

    [48]Sep 28, 2011
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    Here's the thing about this episode's ending, and the events of "Let's Kill Hitler": River is only interested with the Doctor, and able to fall in love with him, because of the foreknowledge she gained from the Tesselecta in "Let's Kill Hitler". She loves him because she knows she is meant to. It's an annoying time paradox which doesn't actually make sense.

    It's too easy to answer the big question of what the nature of River's relationship to the Doctor is by simply saying that she knows they're fated to be together so she pursues him, but that's what Steven Moffat has done. He's answered the question by explaining that River's fascination with and love for the Doctor is a product of the Doctor knowing that they're meant to be an item. In "Let's Kill Hitler", the Doctor told her about her future 'River Song' self and he gave her the diary. But he only was able to do this because he had foreknowledge of their relationship. And she is only able to love him because of the foreknowledge passed on to her in "Let's Kill Hitler".

    It's one massive paradox and I don't like it. There are too many paradoxes in Doctor Who, especially in episodes like "The Big Bang". Just because it's fiction doesn't mean that what's going on shouldn't make sense.
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    theportal

    [49]Sep 28, 2011
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    Also, the time paradox explanation is a cheat whenever it's used. It's an easy way out that doesn't require too much thought being put into it. In "The Big Bang" it's a case of 'Damn, how do we get out of this one... let's just say that the Doctor randomly appears to Rory, even though he's still trapped in the Pandorica, and gives him the sonic screwdriver to release the Doctor from the Pandorica'.

    With River Song: 'Damn, how do we explain this one... Let's just say that the Doctor gives her the diary, since he knows she'll eventually have it. And that River saves the Doctor's life and falls in love with him because she has knowledge of a future that she hasn't set in motion yet'.

    That's what Steven Moffat did in both of those scenarios. Both are get-out clauses used to explain away big plot developments. It's a cop out to just say that A is caused by B, B by A and so on.
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    steamheaduk

    [50]Sep 28, 2011
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    theportal says:
    theportal wrote:
    She loves him because she knows she is meant to. It's an annoying time paradox which doesn't actually make sense.


    steamheaduk replies:
    It's also a leap of faith on your part. We know at the start of the episode she was under the impression that the Doctor was bad and deserved to die. She only changed her mind because of what the Doctor said to her, and we don't know what that was. As far as I can see the supposed motivation that she is trying to find the Doctor because she knows she is going to fall in love with him is just your content for the blanks that need filling in. It's certainly not the impression it gave me. To convince someone to completely repolarise their opinion would need much more than a "one day you're going to marry me" sort of statement, because the obvious reply to that, considering she was trying to kill him would be "in your dreams sweetie".

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    jwgrlrrajn

    [51]Sep 28, 2011
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    Not to mention, in JLU, John Stewart saw the future where he and Shayera had a son together, but when he got back to the past, he refused to be destiny's puppet.
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    theportal

    [52]Sep 28, 2011
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    jwgrlrrajn wrote:
    Not to mention, in JLU, John Stewart saw the future where he and Shayera had a son together, but when he got back to the past, he refused to be destiny's puppet.


    Yeah, he resisted, but River didn't. Interesting...

    On the subject of this episode, something that has just occurred to me is that in a relatively short space of time, we've had two episodes about a father struggling to deal with his son ("Night Terrors" and "Closing Time").
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    nirobu

    [53]Sep 30, 2011
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    hmm... correct me if i'm wrong please, but the amy and rory in this episode are supposed to be after the god complex, right? which makes one hell of a continuity error since closing time happens at approximately 2-4 days before the doctor dies, which means this amy and rory know that the doctor is going to die soon

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    PsyduckRanger

    [54]Sep 30, 2011
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    TIA was back in May, I think? I dunno, the Doctor's death date has been seen plenty of times though, so then. After AGMGTW River takes them home around about June, where they stay all summer. The Doctor drops them off in The God Complex, probably still about September time. This is presumably a few months later, early 2012. The Doctor's death was quite a while earlier from their POV.
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    steamheaduk

    [55]Sep 30, 2011
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    Not a continuity error - remember it also travels in time...

    The date of Closing time is after The God Complex, possibly quite a long time, because we see Amy and Rory post drop off, where she has decided to managed to forge a career in perfumery somehow, detail isn't important, but we can tell it's Amy post-Impossible Astronaut as she has used he adventures as influence for both the name and tag line of the perfume.

    From the Doctor's perspective, it's a Long time since he dropped Amy and Rory off. Remember in TIA that there are 2 Doctors, the one we see second is the younger that we follow through season 6, the one we see first much older and is the "now" Doctor in season 6, i.e. post-Closing time. With me so far? Good...

    In TIA he tells us he's been running for a long time and now it's time to stop. That is what has happened POST God Complex, in that he know's he is going to his death eventually, but he's putting it off. Hence the big age difference between the two Doctors.

    In Closing Time he has basically decided that NOW is the time to finally face it, so he will go and see Craig, before going to his death the following day. But the key thing is that it is HIS following day, NOT Craig's. So he will leave Craig in Post God Complex time and then travel back to Lake Silencio in Impossible Astronaut time to meet with Amy (pre-God Complex), Rory (pre-God Complex), River (who knows) and Canton, where they will witness his death and meet up with the earlier Doctor, for him to eventually drop them off at the end of the God Complex.

    I then suspect that next episode, we will see Post Closing Time Amy and Rory for the core of the episode.
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    thetruesora

    [56]Sep 30, 2011
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    there's another reason why it can be post-god complex for Amy and Rory *BIG spoiler for the finale so don't read unless you really want to be spoiled about a major detail* HIGHLIGHT TO READtime is messed up with there being Churchill, pteradactyls and more all happening at "present time" which is stuck at 5:02pm April 22nd.

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    nirobu

    [57]Sep 30, 2011
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    impossible astronaut was april 22, 2011
    closing time was april 18-20, 2011

    if that amy and rory were post god complex, then that would mean there would have to be another set of amy and rory from impossible astronaut within the same timeline. now, considering amy was famous enough to be asked for autographs from little girls. i highly doubt amy and rory pre-IA would not be aware that there are future versions of themselves.

    i'm probably over-thinking this, but telling myself over and over that it's just wibbly wobbly, isnt enough. i must know!

    @truesora in that case, i'll just have to wait for the episode then

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    PsyduckRanger

    [58]Oct 1, 2011
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    Where does it say that? About the dates? Was there a visible calendar in the episode or something?
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  • Avatar of nirobu

    nirobu

    [60]Oct 1, 2011
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    @psyduck craig's newspaper if you look at it closely 19 april, 2011

    also, since there's no thread for 613 yet, have to say... what the hell?!! O_o not the good kind too

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