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FOX (ended 2010)

If You Take FOX completely out of the equation ...

  • Avatar of Lady_Lancaster

    Lady_Lancaster

    [1]Mar 22, 2010
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    Hi Guys,


    If we were to take the screening network completely out of the equation, including the lack of promotion and unhelpful timeslot, why do you think "Dollhouse" wasn't a success?


    I ask this of you, the fans, because when critics give reasons for why they believe the show failed, they usually don't mention the network in their articles etc. So, the question is, everything connected to the network aside, just looking at the show itself, do you think, from watching it, that there was a reason or several reasonswhyit just didn't take off?


    Let me know what your opinions are as fans and regular viewers.


    LL.

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  • Avatar of historylover20

    historylover20

    [2]Mar 22, 2010
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    Some of my answers are going to border Fox's decisions, because you can't completely take it out of the equation.


    However, one reason is that you're really not given any consistent characters to root for. I mean, we know the characters, but if you randomly tuned into an episode in season 1, you wouldn't know what was going on. Then, if you tuned into the next week's episode, you have the same actors, playing different characters.


    Plus, the concept of it made some people uneasy. You're talking about brain manipulation, kidnapping, being slaves. Forced prostitution? People not in control of their own bodies. We know the story behind it the show--as fans--but try to describe it to someone.


    I can see where it would make people uneasy and less likely to tune in.


    Also, the writing was inconsistent, even after "Man on the Street." You have episodes that completely rock. But, then you've got episodes that fell flat. Now, this is going to happen. Every episode isn't always going to be gold. But, it was the roller coaster effect that some people didn't like.


    And here is where Fox comes into it--airing it on Fridays isn't exactly a good idea. Friday and Saturday nights are considered graveyard time slots. Not many people are going to be around to watch TV. So, premiering a show on Fridays probably means the kiss of death for the show.


    Kat

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    ___Mr_Nasty___

    [3]Mar 22, 2010
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    Yeah, you can't really take Fox completely out of the equation since their network notes in some way dictate what the show is and what it can be.

    Other than that, I'd say Dushku was always going to be a limiting factor. Regardless of which channel the show was on and regardless of how much freedom Whedon was given, the role of Echo was beyond the capabilites of Eliza as an actress. You'll probably see varying degrees of denial on that point from the show's fanbase but I think it pretty clear to most objective observers (like me ).

    Of course, whether Dushku's ability as an actress positively or negatively affected ratings isn't so cut and dry but she didn't help the show become a "success" in my eyes.

    Plus all the reasons that Kat 2 mentioned above.
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  • Avatar of The_Dude14

    The_Dude14

    [4]Mar 22, 2010
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    Relate-ability. I have absolutely no idea if that's a word, but I'm going with it.


    I recently got into 24. I was sold by the end of the pilot. By the end of the pilot, they had introduced me to Jack Bauer and I loved Jack Bauer, I could root for Jack Bauer. Now in the years since, Jack Bauer has become a super hero, but in that first episode, he was just a good man with family problems thrust into extraordinary circumstances and I wanted to see how he was going to to.


    I related to him.


    Buffy was intensely relatable. By the end of the pilot, you know the gang, you love the gang.


    By the end of Ghost, was there anybody or anything in the show that people could relate to?


    By the end of Ghost, I still had no idea what the hell was going on.


    Its not all about the first episode, but that's where everything should start and build from there. 24 and Buffy, by the end of the first episode, you have a feel for the show. Dollhouse?


    There's something to be said for simplicity and Dollhouse was decidedly not simple. For me, the complexity became a plus, but I am not typical.


    I was going to give the show every shot and I was rewarded, but I am not the average viewer.


    I think Dollhouse had lost before it even got going.


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  • Avatar of Lady_Lancaster

    Lady_Lancaster

    [5]Mar 22, 2010
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    I agree with the above points and I also think that some of the scripts (and thus, the episodes) were very badly written and disjointed, which is something I haven't actually seen a lot of from the Whedon camp.


    I wanted to remove the network from the equation, as most of the critics did, to see if we could find out what other problems the show had and why it didn't work and I think we're getting to the heart of the matter with the lists thus far.

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    Jon_MW_14

    [6]Mar 22, 2010
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    I agree with what Kat said about people not knowing what's going on. You pretty much need to watch every episode to know what's going on, and even if you watch every episode, you still may not understand what's going on. People are not going to watch a show if they don't undertstand what's going on.
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    spikemaniac

    [7]Mar 22, 2010
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    Jon_MW_14 wrote:
    People are not going to watch a show if they don't undertstand what's going on.
    One word: Lost.

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  • Avatar of Lady_Lancaster

    Lady_Lancaster

    [8]Mar 22, 2010
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    spikemaniac wrote:

    Jon_MW_14 wrote:
    People are not going to watch a show if they don't undertstand what's going on.
    One word: Lost.



    And 'Heroes' to an extent. I don't think even the cast and crew of 'Lost' actually knew what was going on, they always seemed pretty vague when I read interviews and stuff. Weird.
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  • Avatar of michael_LB92

    michael_LB92

    [9]Mar 23, 2010
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    A few reasons, IMO.

    Standalones.

    Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. For Buffy and Angel, standalones can work because we watch for the characters. On Dollhouse, half the characters have no character, so you require some sort of binding plot. Yes, we had the Alpha-arc, and slow-awareness thing, but that really isn't enough to maintain an audience's interest if we're forced through episodes like "Stage Fright".

    Inconsistency.

    Whether it's in plot or character development, it's there. I found myself in agony when people just entered/exited the Dollhouse with such ease. Billion-dollar corporation and they can't hire some stiff to watch the entrance? Character-wise wasn't as bad, but at the start of season two, Echo was all like "I have memories" then she was all like "I don't have memories, I have feelings..." Just things like this were a bit all over the place (sorta like my previous sentence). The point is, the writing was very often inconsistent episode to episode. And one of the big deal-breakers for me, in all TV shows and movies, is consistency.

    Pace.

    Too slow, then too fast. I know there are reasons behind this, but it still didn't help the show.
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  • Avatar of Lady_Lancaster

    Lady_Lancaster

    [10]Mar 23, 2010
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    michael_LB92 wrote:
    A few reasons, IMO.

    Standalones.

    Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. For Buffy and Angel, standalones can work because we watch for the characters. On Dollhouse, half the characters have no character, so you require some sort of binding plot. Yes, we had the Alpha-arc, and slow-awareness thing, but that really isn't enough to maintain an audience's interest if we're forced through episodes like "Stage Fright".

    Inconsistency.

    Whether it's in plot or character development, it's there. I found myself in agony when people just entered/exited the Dollhouse with such ease. Billion-dollar corporation and they can't hire some stiff to watch the entrance? Character-wise wasn't as bad, but at the start of season two, Echo was all like "I have memories" then she was all like "I don't have memories, I have feelings..." Just things like this were a bit all over the place (sorta like my previous sentence). The point is, the writing was very often inconsistent episode to episode. And one of the big deal-breakers for me, in all TV shows and movies, is consistency.

    Pace.

    Too slow, then too fast. I know there are reasons behind this, but it still didn't help the show.


    All sad but true, Michael.
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  • Avatar of Anabone

    Anabone

    [11]Apr 18, 2010
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    My opinion was the slow evolution at season 1. I was just waiting and waiting for Echo to break out from the dollhouse and become a rebell who travels around the country and does McGyver stuff or The Pretender things. But it never happened. At the end of the season, she was still trapped in the dollhouse and had gotten nowhere. I also mostly watched for the action scenes. I wish there were some more ninja stuff. Season 2 was awesome, except for the fact it was sped up too much.

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  • Avatar of Sagerian

    Sagerian

    [12]May 18, 2010
    • member since: 03/24/06
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    Lady_Lancaster wrote:


    Hi Guys,


    If we were to take the screening network completely out of the equation, including the lack of promotion and unhelpful timeslot, why do you think "Dollhouse" wasn't a success?


    I ask this of you, the fans, because when critics give reasons for why they believe the show failed, they usually don't mention the network in their articles etc. So, the question is, everything connected to the network aside, just looking at the show itself, do you think, from watching it, that there was a reason or several reasonswhyit just didn't take off?


    Let me know what your opinions are as fans and regular viewers.


    LL.




    The first 4 or 5 episodes of both seasons were very slow to get things moving. In season one, apart from the mentions of Alpha, my opinion is that the first 5 episodes aren't worth watching at all.


    Most of my friends who scoff at Dollhouse didn't get past the 3rd or 4th episode.

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  • Avatar of Gemma54

    Gemma54

    [13]Jun 19, 2010
    • member since: 07/10/09
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    Lady_Lancaster wrote:


    Hi Guys,


    If we were to take the screening network completely out of the equation, including the lack of promotion and unhelpful timeslot, why do you think "Dollhouse" wasn't a success?


    I ask this of you, the fans, because when critics give reasons for why they believe the show failed, they usually don't mention the network in their articles etc. So, the question is, everything connected to the network aside, just looking at the show itself, do you think, from watching it, that there was a reason or several reasonswhyit just didn't take off?


    Let me know what your opinions are as fans and regular viewers.


    LL.


    This is a very difficult question to answer because personally, I loved the show, but that's not what the question is asking, Ithink it's because the guest stars in the show were sort of inconsistent from Summer Glau to Alexis Denisof to Alan Tudyk, the characters made sense but their point in the story was so different that it kind of made the point of having guest stars moot, because they weren't needed, and all the characters that were guest stars could've been made into regulars to maximise the potential of the characters, but I understand why they weren't, and the worst things about the show can be explained off and turned into an even better thing, so meh, I love the show.

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  • Avatar of lazyjay

    lazyjay

    [14]Jul 14, 2010
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    Gemma54 wrote:
    This is a very difficult question to answer because personally, I loved the show, but that's not what the question is asking, Ithink it's because the guest stars in the show were sort of inconsistent from Summer Glau to Alexis Denisof to Alan Tudyk, the characters made sense but their point in the story was so different that it kind of made the point of having guest stars moot, because they weren't needed, and all the characters that were guest stars could've been made into regulars to maximise the potential of the characters, but I understand why they weren't, and the worst things about the show can be explained off and turned into an even better thing, so meh, I love the show.
    Not that I think it's bad, but I think those particular guest stars were used as a bit of Whedony fan-service. They all were great in their rolls, but they could have played by pretty much any actor. Except for Tudyk/Alpha... there's no one else I can think of who could have pulled that off.
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    _Dargor_

    [15]Jul 21, 2010
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    You can't take Fox out of the equation, because Fox is the reason it was cancelled.



    1) Ratings, 10 years ago, they barely meant sh!t


    2) Fox is a cheap ass network, reality shows cost less to produce and bring in more retarded viewers.



    Point made. TV nowadays is mediocre and every goddamn show ends up cancelled before its time. I don't remmeber any recent show making it past season 3-4 without getting stomped because of one of the 2 reasons above. The only one I can think of is Smallville (oh god...) but the only reason its still on is because fo the crazy teenage fangirls, those are a powerful force (see loltwilight and its still being alive).



    Modern TV is sh!t, simply because the networks are all about easy money.

    Edited on 07/21/2010 12:43am
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    fatfreeoreos

    [16]Jul 21, 2010
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    ...then neither Firefly nor Dollhouse would have been canceled and we'd all be sitting with Sheldon, but not in his spot, on a Friday night watching them.
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  • Avatar of spikemaniac

    spikemaniac

    [17]Jul 22, 2010
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    fatfreeoreos wrote:
    we'd all be sitting with Sheldon, but not in his spot

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