Dollhouse Forums

FOX (ended 2010)

Is Joss Whedon being given a free pass?

  • Avatar of Frenz9

    Frenz9

    [21]Apr 3, 2009
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    DrRosenRosen wrote:
    Eliza's hotness but not her acting I believe is carrying it right now.

    I think that Eliza is doing a great job acting, love every personality she has played in the show
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    SVU_Obsessed

    [22]Apr 3, 2009
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    People keep talking about how bad she is at acting when I haven't noticed any problems. I think she's doing an awesome job and she's convincing me of the roles she's playing.
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  • Avatar of MysteryReader2

    MysteryReader2

    [23]Apr 4, 2009
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    Joss Whedon may be one of my favorite writers, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to his flaws and refuse to admit when I think he creates a show/movie that sucks. I happen to love Dollhouse as much as I love Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel. I haven't seen Firefly or Serenity; doesn't look like my cup of tea.
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    michael_LB92

    [24]Apr 4, 2009
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    TwistedConverse wrote:
    Dollhouse is much better than the awful Buffy movie.

    I think if it gets 5 seasons and Fox don't meddle with it, I will end up loving Dollhouse more than Angel. Never will I love it more than BtVS though.


    Yeah. Nothing will surpass the BtVS memories...
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    TwistedConverse

    [25]Apr 4, 2009
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    I think Eliza's doing a great job as well. She was terrific in Episodes 5 and 6 especially.
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  • Avatar of racoon_boy

    racoon_boy

    [26]Apr 5, 2009
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    SeerMagicX wrote:

    Kadodian wrote:
    Everything Joss Whedon has done in his carreer was a masterpiece

    simply not true. Have you seen Alien Resurrection? or some of the Big Bads of Buffy & Angel? astonishing x-men? fat willow? doom and gloom Captian Reynolds?

    Whedon is my favorite writer in the world, but I'm not a blind fan. I understand that no one is perfect.

    Hold on, what? Sure, I'll give you Alien: Resurrection, but Astonishing X-Men is great. Not sure I understand what you mean when you say "fat willow" or "doom and gloom Captain Reynolds". And as for the Buffy/Angel villains, the only one I can really fault is The Master, and even he wasn't completely awful.

    I agree that Joss Whedon can make mistakes, and has on numerous occasions, but don't tell someone else that their opinion is wrong just because you don't agree.

    Edited on 04/05/2009 8:25pm
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  • Avatar of umbrious

    umbrious

    [27]Apr 5, 2009
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    I would prefer drrr stop watching and moreover stop looking behind the scenes since that is apparently what irks him about what is going on and what he is up in arms about what other people aka fans are doing. The entire question and proposition deals entirely with whether some guy is god based on his past work, has nothing to do with that guy and even less to do with this individual show... It is proposed he is not deserving of something now based (which is implied to be a failure) on his past successes which are implied to have been failures and and why again he is not deserving of some benefit of the doubt aka faith NOW.

    Really? for discussion? then do discuss his mispercieved successes that were actually failures and add where is he failing again now? You really want to talk about how this show should be cancelled now? and how you don't want to watch it now because it is not worth right? Then why again are you still watching it?

    So how much faith or rope should we give ANY show before we hang it or lift it up? As again, there is some reluctance to give this show any benefit of the doubt as the not worth comment demonstrates... so how much rope or faith should we allow it to demonstrate how sucky/godlike it is?

    This provocateur should go worship at the feet of Dancing with the Stars or whatever shows he happens to like, because there is no argument to make here without actually saying anything except that this hypocrite does everything he is complaining about... he has an opinion based on some previous work and it irks him that these other people also have opinions based on previous work.

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  • Avatar of michael_LB92

    michael_LB92

    [28]Apr 5, 2009
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    ^ Well stated.

    racoon_boy, "fat Willow" refers to the original actress set to play Willow. I've forgotten her name (it's something like Riff Regan or something weird like that). She was a bit chubby, but I wouldn't exactly jut call her "fat". Maybe she was if you stuck her next to teeny weeny Alyson Hannigan though.

    I don't see the relevance of that argument, SeerMagicX. While I much prefer Alyson Hannigan, she did get about 100 hours more air time than the original actress to prove herself better for the role. Plus I don't see how you could judge Joss Whedon's talent on the casting of an actress. I definitely agree Joss is far from perfect, but I just don't think this is a fair point to be made.
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  • Avatar of jwhitehead

    jwhitehead

    [29]Apr 6, 2009
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    While Joss certainly has his fanboys and fangirls, these 10% who could drop to their knees and worship him in the worst way (like Monica did with Clinton), this won't keep anyone's show alive.

    As a fan of TV going back to the 60s, I think Dollhouse has some of the most exciting action and interesting plots on TV today. Take for example, the episode where blind Echo penetrated a fanatical religious cult, that authorities wanted to destroy. The characterization of the leader and followers was very accurate to the warped psychology of cults. (I know because I met some cult followers in college, who visited a free-love commune cult near Michigan State). What other recent show on TV has shown us such a realistic portrayal of a wacked-out cult? HMMM I'm waiting.... BZZZZZ. Time's up.

    At its worst, Dollhouse is at least a decent network show. At its best, it puts to shame the stale politically correct soap, M.D. or cop show garbage on other channels. I would watch it if Eliza Dushku wasn't a hottie, just as I watched the Wild Wild West. Are you serious, that SEX APPEAL is your only reason? Then you are really superficial, dude. You just care about the Baywatch T&A factor?

    CONFESSION Is good for the soul. Admit it: Don't some of the episodes have damn good WRITING and ACTING?

    Edited on 04/06/2009 1:14am
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  • Avatar of racoon_boy

    racoon_boy

    [30]Apr 6, 2009
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    michael_LB92 wrote:
    ^ Well stated. racoon_boy, "fat Willow" refers to the original actress set to play Willow. I've forgotten her name (it's something like Riff Regan or something weird like that). She was a bit chubby, but I wouldn't exactly jut call her "fat". Maybe she was if you stuck her next to teeny weeny Alyson Hannigan though. I don't see the relevance of that argument, SeerMagicX. While I much prefer Alyson Hannigan, she did get about 100 hours more air time than the original actress to prove herself better for the role. Plus I don't see how you could judge Joss Whedon's talent on the casting of an actress. I definitely agree Joss is far from perfect, but I just don't think this is a fair point to be made.

    Yeah, I thought that was what he meant. I don't understand how you can blame Joss for that, since he knew when he cast Riff Regan that she wasn't the right one for the role, they just hadn't found anyone he felt was right, but they needed someone for the pilot. The same thing happened with Firefly, with Rebecca Gayheart being cast as Inara in the original pilot, even though Joss knew he was going to recast her for the series if it was picked up.

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  • Avatar of grailwolf

    grailwolf

    [31]Apr 6, 2009
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    Just to touch on a couple of these comments:
    I once heard an interview with a comedy writer who worked frequently as a "script doctor". In other words, for those who don't know, he was brought in to go over scripts and add jokes and punchy dialogue. Actually, Joss used to do the same thing. Anyway, they asked the comedian for his favorite script out of all the ones he'd worked on. He answered "Joss Whedon's original script for Alien: Resurrection." He said it was possibly the best science fiction script he had ever seen and one of the best scripts he'd ever seen period. He then went on a rant about how the studios will take a great script and change everything around until it's unrecognizable.

    Just a reminder that the writer has zero control over the finished product.

    Also, while I'm sure that Joss sits in on the casting sessions from time to time, there are casting directors who do most of that job. It's actually the network that usually has the final say.

    And it's hard to say that "doom and gloom Mal" was a bad idea because, very simply, we never saw it. As great as Firefly was, maybe a darker and gritier Mal would have improved it tenfold. No way to say for sure, so this is certainly not something that can be held against Joss.
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  • Avatar of ebony_kunoichi

    ebony_kunoichi

    [32]Apr 6, 2009
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    TO me Joss is just another overglorified creator. He had one really good show and that was Buffy. Angel was just o.k. and firefly has never been my cup of tea as well. I love lost, but i'm not a JJ Abrams mark. I don't fall on the sword for his work. I live and breathe Star Wars, but if Lucas comes out with crap then he comes out with crap no biggie. I can understand being a fan of a persons work, but some Whedon fans are a tad bit...trying on their fandom almost venturing into the realm of fantarding. Then if you say anything negative they jump all over you and say you're trying to flame bait. I guess I'm the kind of person that doesnt get all touchy over people bashing a TV show or it's creator.

    You can call Ron Moore a blithering retarded douche bag and I wouldnt bat an eyelash. I just don't take it personally and neither should anyone else. Neither should any creator get a free pass. I dont get also, why singing someones praises is o.k. but expressing a negative opinion is not. Its as if there is a bias where being positive is always great even though at times it's not deserved.

    Dollhouse is an alright show. No I cant stand Eliza, but I fight thru it. I will continue to watch since it has gotten better. The first 5 episodes were not that great. But this show is trying to attract all fans and not just the Whedon devotees. So yeah, my opinion does count because it is unjaded by whedon love or hate. To me it's just another show that has to prove itself entertaining and judging by the dip in ratings each week, some are jumping ship.

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    gotahaloroundme

    [33]Apr 6, 2009
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    This is classic fanboy stuff. Regardless of the medium or subject, fanboyism should be a legitimate psychological diagnosis. The fanboy will spin the supposed "selling points" or "high points" of their favorite subject more than a politician up for election. And since Joss Whedon is firmly in the sci-fi/fantasy realm, he has more fanboys than the average subject. For example, if Joss decided to enter the world of the daytime soap opera, as the TC said there would be sites and rabidly blind fans clamoring to "save the show!" even though it would obviously be an awful idea. The only real problem with fanboys that I have is that they're worse than religious nuts in trying to convert you to their point of view (I don't necessarily mean with Joss, but with everything).

    I'm a Joss Whedon fan, not a fanboy. If something comes along that is not up to his usual standard or just flat out not good, I'll freely admit it while allowing my opinion to be heard. Regardless of what it is, if the bad aspects outweigh the good it's a tough sell for me. In my opinion, Joss is wholly capable of greatness, but Dollhouse is far, far from it. Just look at it this way, with fanboy filters off -- if Dollhouse did not have Joss Whedon's name attached to it, would you honestly still watch it? I'm predicting that 99.9% of you guys will say yes. Because it's impossible for the fanboy to look objectively at its favorite subject. There are tons of his fans that really WANTED to enjoy Dollhouse (like myself), but couldn't.

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    TwistedConverse

    [34]Apr 6, 2009
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    Yeah I would still watch if it didn't have Joss' name on it. I genuinely love the show. And I'm not a fanboy- I haven't even made an attempt to watch Firefly.
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    SeerMagicX

    [35]Apr 6, 2009
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    michael_LB92 wrote:
    ^ Well stated. racoon_boy, "fat Willow" refers to the original actress set to play Willow. I've forgotten her name (it's something like Riff Regan or something weird like that). She was a bit chubby, but I wouldn't exactly jut call her "fat". Maybe she was if you stuck her next to teeny weeny Alyson Hannigan though. I don't see the relevance of that argument, SeerMagicX. While I much prefer Alyson Hannigan, she did get about 100 hours more air time than the original actress to prove herself better for the role. Plus I don't see how you could judge Joss Whedon's talent on the casting of an actress. I definitely agree Joss is far from perfect, but I just don't think this is a fair point to be made.

    it was the network that made him change willow. It was the network that made him change Captain Reynolds. I can't even imagine firefly without the Mal the way he is. I'm just saying everything he does isn't a Masterpiece... as some poster said in this thread.

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  • Avatar of michael_LB92

    michael_LB92

    [36]Apr 7, 2009
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    SeerMagicX wrote:

    michael_LB92 wrote:
    ^ Well stated. racoon_boy, "fat Willow" refers to the original actress set to play Willow. I've forgotten her name (it's something like Riff Regan or something weird like that). She was a bit chubby, but I wouldn't exactly jut call her "fat". Maybe she was if you stuck her next to teeny weeny Alyson Hannigan though. I don't see the relevance of that argument, SeerMagicX. While I much prefer Alyson Hannigan, she did get about 100 hours more air time than the original actress to prove herself better for the role. Plus I don't see how you could judge Joss Whedon's talent on the casting of an actress. I definitely agree Joss is far from perfect, but I just don't think this is a fair point to be made.

    it was the network that made him change willow. It was the network that made him change Captain Reynolds. I can't even imagine firefly without the Mal the way he is. I'm just saying everything he does isn't a Masterpiece... as some poster said in this thread.



    But who's to say that these original ideas wouldn't have made the shows even greater? I agree that not everything he does is a masterpiece, but I don't agree that we're able to judge these two examples, as we never even saw the Reynolds thing and Riff Regan may have played a much better Willow than Alyson Hannigan. (Unless you've concluded that she was truly horrible and would've been absolutely awful).
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  • Avatar of grailwolf

    grailwolf

    [37]Apr 7, 2009
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    gotahaloroundme wrote:

    This is classic fanboy stuff. Regardless of the medium or subject, fanboyism should be a legitimate psychological diagnosis. The fanboy will spin the supposed "selling points" or "high points" of their favorite subject more than a politician up for election.


    Sometimes true, but I don't think this happens nearly as often as some claim. Rather, I think the reverse is true far more often. That is, people who don't like a show (any show, but Joss' works seem to have this problem more often than most) just can't understand how anyone with any intelligence could actually legitimately enjoy it, so they start claiming that the fans are just mindless zombies, or deficient in some other way. This invariably devolves into trolling and the naysayers tell the fans that Joss (or whatever other creator we're talking about) isn't worthy of their devotion, the fans defend their enjoyment of the work, and a full-scale flame war erupts. But who is being unreasonable in this example? If you don't like something and you find a community of people who do, that's okay. They are allowed to. If you tell them that you don't like it, and why, and they tell you why they like it and/or why they think you should give it another chance, this is still all in the realm of the reasonable. But if you then say that they can't possibly like this thing, that they have just been fooled by their fandom or whatever... that crosses the line. You simply do not have the right to decide whether anyone else should or should not like something. Yes, the fans sometimes go too far the other way, but this is actually pretty rare and I'll yell at them if I see that behavior. But I see attacks from the anti-fans on an almost daily basis. Again, not just here but on all sites and in all fandoms. I'd guess that I see "you're stupid for liking X" at least a couple dozen times more often than I see "you're stupid for not liking X". For this reason, the fans are a bit trigger happy and can jump to the defensive a bit faster than necessary, but that's a reaction to the constant trolling, not an indication that they are somehow in thrall to Joss.

    gotahaloroundme wrote:
    And since Joss Whedon is firmly in the sci-fi/fantasy realm, he has more fanboys than the average subject. For example, if Joss decided to enter the world of the daytime soap opera, as the TC said there would be sites and rabidly blind fans clamoring to "save the show!" even though it would obviously be an awful idea.

    I really don't follow you here. First of all, there are any number of writers who do mainly sci-fi and fantasy but have very few fans. Uwe Boll is a good example. He's done plenty of work with fantastic themes, but he is largely reviled by the geek community. See, you have to actually be good to get fans in the first place. Granted, once you get a fan in the fields of speculative fiction, those fans tend to be more loyal than the average. But that doesn't mean they (we) are just mindless lemmings.

    And I've already explained the preemptive "save Dollhouse" campaign. No one was saying that they knew the show would be great, they just thought that the network was trying to kill the show before we had a chance to see it for ourselves, and they were trying to make sure that didn't happen. It was not unreasonable, it was a reaction to the fact that the same thing had been done before (with Firefly). Your description of "rabidly blind fans" is, frankly, insulting.

    And what's all this about daytime soaps? I don't follow that part at all.

    gotahaloroundme wrote:
    The only real problem with fanboys that I have is that they're worse than religious nuts in trying to convert you to their point of view (I don't necessarily mean with Joss, but with everything).
    I'm a Joss Whedon fan, not a fanboy. If something comes along that is not up to his usual standard or just flat out not good, I'll freely admit it while allowing my opinion to be heard. Regardless of what it is, if the bad aspects outweigh the good it's a tough sell for me.

    Again, not completely following. But how often do "fanboys" really try to convert you to their point of view? Is it possible that they are just defending their point of view because you've just called them mindless, blind, rabid, or some other insult? Again, it's the difference between "I disagree" and "you're wrong". Saying "I disagree" in a debate or argument is expected and acceptable. Saying "you're wrong" is just making the debate personal. Basically, saying that the other person is wrong (unless you can totally back up your position with indisputable facts) is saying that you are smarter than the other person and you have the authority to decide what is true and what is not. If this is really the case, then stop the debate and walk away. You've already won and the other person is clearly far too stupid to be swayed by your infallible logic. If you wish to continue the conversation, though, it would be best to treat the other person with respect, whether you agree with them or not.
    gotahaloroundme wrote:
    In my opinion, Joss is wholly capable of greatness, but Dollhouse is far, far from it. Just look at it this way, with fanboy filters off -- if Dollhouse did not have Joss Whedon's name attached to it, would you honestly still watch it? I'm predicting that 99.9% of you guys will say yes. Because it's impossible for the fanboy to look objectively at its favorite subject. There are tons of his fans that really WANTED to enjoy Dollhouse (like myself), but couldn't.

    This is a perfect example of what I am talking about. You are assuming that I (or at least 99.9% of the readers) am unable to think for myself and cannot look objectively at either Dollhouse or Joss. First of all, this is an impossible challenge. If we disagree with you, you have already stated that this proves we are "fanboys" who cannot think for ourselves. This is an insult. It is a slap in the face. It makes me want to tell you that you are wrong and to point out all the reasons why. But that would violate my advice above, so no matter how insulted I am I will just take a step back and say, "I disagree."
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    grailwolf

    [38]Apr 7, 2009
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    ebony_kunoichi wrote:
    I dont get also, why singing someones praises is o.k. but expressing a negative opinion is not. Its as if there is a bias where being positive is always great even though at times it's not deserved.

    Again, it's all a matter of how you say it. There are plenty of people on this forum who criticize Dollhouse, Joss, Eliza, etc, and never get moderated. It's just the difference between "you're wrong" and "I disagree". Yes, people who are criticizing get more moderations than people who are praising, but that's because people tend to be more abrasive when criticizing, so they violate the TOS more often. If someone posts a message stating that Dollhouse is the best show ever and it's scripts are written on paper made of hugs and rainbows, I may retch but I won't moderate them. If, on the other hand, they post that "This **** is off the ****ing hook! I can't ****ing wait for the next episode!" then I'd moderate that in a heartbeat (especially if they hadn't actually censored the naughty words). The same is true if you are expressing a negative opinion. If you are respectful and obey the Terms of Service, then we're fine. If you are hostile, flaming, deliberately rile people up, use profanity, post in threads that are not appropriate to your message, or otherwise violate the TOS, then you will be moderated. It has nothing to do with whether you like something or not. It's all about being respectful and following the rules.
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    michael_LB92

    [39]Apr 7, 2009
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    I don't get how anyone doesn't like the show.
    Dollhouse is the best show ever and it's scripts are written on paper made of hugs and rainbows.
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    kikimarie593

    [40]Apr 7, 2009
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    michael_LB92 wrote:
    I don't get how anyone doesn't like the show. Dollhouse is the best show ever and it's scripts are written on paper made of hugs and rainbows.

    And cotton candy and unicorns.

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