Dollhouse Forums

FOX (ended 2010)

Is Joss Whedon being given a free pass?

  • Avatar of SVU_Obsessed

    SVU_Obsessed

    [41]Apr 7, 2009
    • member since: 11/04/06
    • level: 22
    • rank: Freak and Geek
    • posts: 17,493
    kikimarie593 wrote:

    michael_LB92 wrote:
    I don't get how anyone doesn't like the show. Dollhouse is the best show ever and it's scripts are written on paper made of hugs and rainbows.

    And cotton candy and unicorns.



    I wonder if grailwolf has vomited yet?
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of lazyjay

    lazyjay

    [42]Apr 8, 2009
    • member since: 07/15/05
    • level: 30
    • rank: Anchorman
    • posts: 16,681
    SVU_Obsessed wrote:
    I wonder if grailwolf has vomited yet?

    I just did, a little.

    Which is not to say I don't love it. I think it's has the blessings of all the good Norse gods, the cameras are operated by super models (the pretty ones at least) and the grips are all Mensa members. It's that good. Seriously.

    Now that I made the dead horse die again, I just want to say... Wow, grailwolf. Your posts were so eloquently written and perfectly to the point. It's bittersweet that I'll probably read more like them in the future.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of kanniballl

    kanniballl

    [43]Apr 8, 2009
    • member since: 07/02/03
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 3,312

    OK, before I continue I'll come clean. I thought Firefly was by far the best SciFi series I'd seen in a long time and probably one of the best I've seen since. I was a fan of the early seasons of Angel, and enjoyed the first couple of Buffy, but didn't watch too much of their later seasons. Angel and Buffy weren't on my top-tier watch list but they were alright.

    That being said, I like Dollhouse.

    I'm not saying it's incredible or amazing, but I enjoy it. It doesn't come close to my love of Firefly, which I still watch as a DVD marathon once a year, but I enjoy it and would be sad to see it go.

    Fox might be giving him so wiggle room, as they realized they screwed up with the whole Firefly fiasco. They misread the quality, screwed with the order, and cancelled it too soon. Once the DVD sales figures came back I'm sure a lot of VPs slapped themselves in the head and they're probably afraid of making the same mistake twice.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it gets axed, a number of shows I enjoyed got nailed during their first-or-second season over the last year or two.

    In the end, I feel it's an alright show but was kind of hoping for more. At least more funny one-liners, so far the best one has been "they're a little bit bison."

    Edited on 04/08/2009 12:41pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of grailwolf

    grailwolf

    [44]Apr 8, 2009
    • member since: 04/22/05
    • level: 55
    • rank: Bounty Dog
    • posts: 4,578
    SVU_Obsessed wrote:
    I wonder if grailwolf has vomited yet?

    Actually, this was all just a convoluted way to achieve my evil goal of getting someone on this board to say the phrase "hugs and rainbows".

    lazyjay wrote:
    I just did, a little.

    Which is not to say I don't love it. I think it's has the blessings of all the good Norse gods, the cameras are operated by super models (the pretty ones at least) and the grips are all Mensa members. It's that good. Seriously.

    Now that I made the dead horse die again, I just want to say... Wow, grailwolf. Your posts were so eloquently written and perfectly to the point. It's bittersweet that I'll probably read more like them in the future.


    Thanks (he said, hoping the post wasn't sarcastic). Honestly, I barely know whether I'm coming or going just now, and those posts felt like a rambling mess to me. I'll try to explain more about that in the off-topic thread in the next day or so.

    Just realized, though, that I should probably address directly the main point of this thread. It's probably pretty obvious, but I honestly don't think that Joss gets a "free pass", in fact he and his work draw so much attention from trolls that the combo of trolls and fans is probably a net loss. Even among his fans, a lot of them love only one of his franchises and gripe endlessly about the rest.

    Also, for the record, I honestly do not think that anything Joss has done has "plain sucked". I have really enjoyed Buffy, Firefly, Angel, Serenity, Dr. Horrible, Astonishing X-Men, Sugar Shock, even his stint on Rosanne, and now Dollhouse. But if he ever puts out something that I really do not enjoy, I'll be able to admit that. For example, I was underwhelmed by his run on the comic book "Runaways". It didn't suck but it wasn't really my thing.

    In short, Whedon's work tends to appeal to a fairly intelligent and literate subsection of the population. I think that anyone who says that Whedon fans are unable to know their own minds or to decide for themselves what they like is seriously underestimating them (us). If you don't like some of Joss' work, that's fine, but I would suggest having a little faith in your fellow fans.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of gotahaloroundme

    gotahaloroundme

    [45]Apr 8, 2009
    • member since: 10/10/05
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 230
    Grailwolf, just to be clear, I never stated that someone who disagreed with my point of view was not capable of a well thought out, intelligent response to my accusations. I assumed that it would be spun to insult my opinion and myself personally, and I was right. Insinuating that I lack the intellectual integrity to enjoy the supposed superiority of Dollhouse is grossly out of touch and poignantly elitist. I, unlike you, sir, can agree to disagree. Most entertainment which I enjoy would hardly be considered either low-brow or simple. So please, do not preach about the intellectual nuances of a network television drama. Speaking of which, the views that any individual holds are commonly known as an opinion. Apparently any form of disagreement is not to be tolerated here, and that's fine. I'm used to those who cannot accept that someone does not agree with their views. And again, to be absolutely clear, I did not directly accuse any single person of being a fanboy for Joss Whedon. The fundamental difference between my post and your rebuttal is that I was making generalizations; you were going after my specific, personal views. If this makes you feel better and in any way aids your sleeping at night, I'm glad. But with all due respect, sir, the opinion of any one individual is never more correct that that of another. And to clarify, just because you are not a fanboy does not mean that they do not exist. Never did I state that every fan of Joss Whedon is a brainwashed invalid incapable of enjoying his entertainment, and accusing me of such is blatantly dishonest. If you or anyone else enjoys Dollhouse, that's great and I'm glad that you do. I'm still of the opinion that Dollhouse lacks what most would consider to be Whedon-esque, and do not like the show. If that cannot be accepted, that's fine. Come on, come and get me again. I know it's coming.
    Edited on 04/08/2009 8:14pm
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of michael_LB92

    michael_LB92

    [46]Apr 8, 2009
    • member since: 04/11/07
    • level: 24
    • rank: Golden Girl
    • posts: 5,963
    Hear, hear! Or... here, here! I'm pretty sure it's hear, hear though... right?

    Anyway, I don't think Joss gets a free pass either. But I do think he gets the benefit of the doubt. If a show is made, and I've never heard of the writers/creators/actors before, I'll give it one or two episodes to interest me. If it's Joss and Eliza, I'll give it many more.

    That doesn't mean I'll praise it when it doesn't deserve it, or pretend to like it, but I will give it more of a chance because Joss has earned that. I know how intelligent and funny and entertaining his shows can be, so why wouldn't I give him more time to bring me into this new world? He has earned my patience, and he has proved that Dollhouse is a lot more than just showcasing ED's talent. And I do like it. And just to prove I'm not saying that because I'm a fan-boy, I'll say I didn't really like Firefly or Serenity. They were good, but I wasn't nearly as interested in it as Buffy or Angel. (Oh, and I hated Buffy season seven).
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of michael_LB92

    michael_LB92

    [47]Apr 8, 2009
    • member since: 04/11/07
    • level: 24
    • rank: Golden Girl
    • posts: 5,963
    Oh, I was hear-hearing, Grailwolf...
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of DrRosenRosen

    DrRosenRosen

    [48]Apr 8, 2009
    • member since: 08/26/07
    • level: 2
    • rank: Sweat Hog
    • posts: 48
    grailwolf wrote:

    In short, Whedon's work tends to appeal to a fairly intelligent and literate subsection of the population.


    Really. I actually know just as many slackers and underachievers that are die-hard Whedon fans as I know doctors, lawyers and PhDs that are addicted to various reality shows. I know that this must disagree with the caste system of television programming intelligence that you've created in your head.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of grailwolf

    grailwolf

    [49]Apr 10, 2009
    • member since: 04/22/05
    • level: 55
    • rank: Bounty Dog
    • posts: 4,578
    gotahaloroundme wrote:
    Grailwolf, just to be clear, I never stated that someone who disagreed with my point of view was not capable of a well thought out, intelligent response to my accusations.

    gotahaloroundme wrote:
    Just look at it this way, with fanboy filters off -- if Dollhouse did not have Joss Whedon's name attached to it, would you honestly still watch it? I'm predicting that 99.9% of you guys will say yes. Because it's impossible for the fanboy to look objectively at its favorite subject.

    Unless I am seriously misreading something, you actually are saying exactly this. In the second quote you directly say that all but 0.01% of us are unable to think clearly about this subject. If I am wrong, please enlighten me.

    gotahaloroundme wrote:
    I assumed that it would be spun to insult my opinion and myself personally, and I was right. Insinuating that I lack the intellectual integrity to enjoy the supposed superiority of Dollhouse is grossly out of touch and poignantly elitist. I, unlike you, sir, can agree to disagree. Most entertainment which I enjoy would hardly be considered either low-brow or simple. So please, do not preach about the intellectual nuances of a network television drama. Speaking of which, the views that any individual holds are commonly known as an opinion. Apparently any form of disagreement is not to be tolerated here, and that's fine. I'm used to those who cannot accept that someone does not agree with their views.

    Please point out to me exactly where I insulted you or your opinion. I did not write anything related to your intellectual capacity or the overall intelligence of Dollhouse. I did not discuss the intellectual nuances of anything at all. And, moreover, I did nothing but take your opinion and present my own. Are you saying that you are entitled to express your opinion and I am not? Please clarify.

    gotahaloroundme wrote:
    And again, to be absolutely clear, I did not directly accuse any single person of being a fanboy for Joss Whedon. The fundamental difference between my post and your rebuttal is that I was making generalizations; you were going after my specific, personal views. If this makes you feel better and in any way aids your sleeping at night, I'm glad. But with all due respect, sir, the opinion of any one individual is never more correct that that of another. And to clarify, just because you are not a fanboy does not mean that they do not exist. Never did I state that every fan of Joss Whedon is a brainwashed invalid incapable of enjoying his entertainment, and accusing me of such is blatantly dishonest.

    Again, I did not attack your views, I merely presented my own. Please read my reply again and you will see that I state all my opinions as such ("I think...", "I don't think that...", "I believe..."). I never say or imply that you are categorically incorrect, just that I hold a different belief. On the other hand, you specifically state that 99.9% of the people on this board are fanboys, implying that they/we share all of the negative traits that you had just ascribed to "fanboys" including the inability to think rationally about Joss Whedon shows, "fanboy" as a psychological disorder, etc.
    If I am not mistaken, you then proceeded to insult me and belittle my opinions. If I am misinterpreting the situation please let me know.

    gotahaloroundme wrote:
    If you or anyone else enjoys Dollhouse, that's great and I'm glad that you do. I'm still of the opinion that Dollhouse lacks what most would consider to be Whedon-esque, and do not like the show. If that cannot be accepted, that's fine. Come on, come and get me again. I know it's coming.

    As I have said elsewhere, I have no problem with you or anyone else disliking the show (aside from wishing that more people liked it, thus increasing its ratings). All I can say is that I hope you can learn to accept a response as a response and not someone trying to "get you". If you are going to put your opinions out there, then others have the right to comment on them and to share their own. I'm sorry that this process seems to bother you.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of grailwolf

    grailwolf

    [50]Apr 10, 2009
    • member since: 04/22/05
    • level: 55
    • rank: Bounty Dog
    • posts: 4,578
    DrRosenRosen wrote:
    grailwolf wrote:

    In short, Whedon's work tends to appeal to a fairly intelligent and literate subsection of the population.


    Really. I actually know just as many slackers and underachievers that are die-hard Whedon fans as I know doctors, lawyers and PhDs that are addicted to various reality shows. I know that this must disagree with the caste system of television programming intelligence that you've created in your head.


    You are reading into my comment. I do not say that all Whedon fans are intelligent, nor do I say that all (or any) non-Whedon fans are unintelligent. I am merely pointing out that a lot of Whedon fans are intelligent and literate, and as a group they should not be dismissed as easily as they often are. I should also point out that there are a large number of scholarly books, articles, dissertations, websites, and colloquy about Whedon's work (especially Buffy the Vampire Slayer). That would seem to lend credence to the idea that his work has some intellectual merit and may attract more than the average number of intelligent and literate fans.

    This does not imply any sort of "caste system" nor does it impugn the intelligence of anyone who is not a fan of Whedon or his works.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Togana

    Togana

    [51]Apr 10, 2009
    • member since: 11/10/07
    • level: 9
    • rank: Door Number 2
    • posts: 126

    I give credit to where it's due. Joss is a very good writer. He's got a pretty cool imagination and he does humor very well. I happen to enjoy both Buffy and Angel equally, but what stood out to me, was how well Joss wrote their dialogue and he had talented enough actors who could pull it off well.

    If you want to bring up over glorified writers, then I'd like to welcome to the stage stephenie meyer! Her books are being made into movies and I don't know why. The characters are lifeless...dull... and extremely narcissistic. Books feature VERY little plot and FAR TOO MUCH pillow fluff filler. But if you want to talk about a bunch of fans kissing undeserved tail, she would be the one.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of SVU_Obsessed

    SVU_Obsessed

    [52]Apr 10, 2009
    • member since: 11/04/06
    • level: 22
    • rank: Freak and Geek
    • posts: 17,493
    I can't help it, I happen to like Stephanie Meyer's books. But I didn't care for the movie at all. It all just seemed way over-hyped. But I did like the book series even though the main chick annoyed me a bit.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of TwistedConverse

    TwistedConverse

    [53]Apr 10, 2009
    • member since: 11/20/07
    • level: 23
    • rank: Close Talker
    • posts: 4,834
    I've never read Twilight. Seemed lame to me and I would have ended up saying "that's wrong" about all the vampire stuff as I'm so used to the Buffy mythology.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of michael_LB92

    michael_LB92

    [54]Apr 11, 2009
    • member since: 04/11/07
    • level: 24
    • rank: Golden Girl
    • posts: 5,963
    Yes, seeing Twilight made me cringe. I hated the vampire mythology compared to Joss Whedon's. Oh no, they glow in the sunlight. Lord help us. 8-)

    Not to mention that the main character is awful, which would be OK if there were actually some likeable secondary characters. But no. It's just "Everybody loves Bella Swan, including this stalker vampire."

    Sorry, this is semi-off-topic. I did mention Joss though.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of KingofIPirates

    KingofIPirates

    [55]Apr 13, 2009
    • member since: 08/11/06
    • level: 32
    • rank: Whammy!
    • posts: 45,832
    I too as well didn't like the fact that their vampires glowed in daylight, though I thought the movie was decent at best. Joss's version of the vampire was far better.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of SVU_Obsessed

    SVU_Obsessed

    [56]Apr 13, 2009
    • member since: 11/04/06
    • level: 22
    • rank: Freak and Geek
    • posts: 17,493
    I guess I liked the books because I don't really have one mind-set of vampires. I was way more into BtVS and Angel a few years back and may have hated Twilight back then, but I believe everyone has their own interpretations. I guess I don't just depend on "Joss' way".
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of michael_LB92

    michael_LB92

    [57]Apr 13, 2009
    • member since: 04/11/07
    • level: 24
    • rank: Golden Girl
    • posts: 5,963
    SVU_Obsessed wrote:
    I guess I don't just depend on "Joss' way".


    Joss' one had some huge holes in it too. Vampire deaths could be extremely inconsistent (like how Spike got arrows through him in "Pangs" and survived, but cowboy-vampire-lady got one through the stomach in "Homecoming" and died. There are more examples I could give if people want?) Not to mention, I was extremely peeved at how Spike pretty much had a soul in season five and six, even though he obviously didn't. Like, he could've eaten Buffy... but didn't. That just made me angry, and not only cause I hated Spike, but because it just didn't go with vampire mythology.

    I just hate the Twilight version because vampires are like super-fast, allowed-in-the-daylight, uber-killing-machines. Like, why don't they just massacre the entire world? They probably could. One thing that Twilight possibly did better than Joss was the fact that they could sort of choose to be evil. Like, Edward had to fight it and fight it, but ultimately chose to be good. I think this sort of story-telling would've been good for Spike's character or something.

    But still, this isn't the most annoying thing about the movie/book. The fact that it's only about a human and vampire in love is pretty gag-worthy. Especially when the vampire is a stalker and the human is a snob.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of SVU_Obsessed

    SVU_Obsessed

    [58]Apr 14, 2009
    • member since: 11/04/06
    • level: 22
    • rank: Freak and Geek
    • posts: 17,493
    Eh, I still like the books . Even though the main chick does seem to be a bit of a sex addict in the later series. But the books interested me. I'm just glad I read most of the books when there wasn't all the hype about them, that probably would have made me not read the books that I did.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of tv_lover066

    tv_lover066

    [59]Apr 14, 2009
    • member since: 02/26/07
    • level: 12
    • rank: Evil Bert
    • posts: 1,359
    The twilight books are badly written in my opinion. They lack something...the main chick whines for 200 pages about how perfect edward and she loves him so much, then edward acts like pansy on occasion.

    The first book nearly had me bored to tears! and the second book lacks a good story for two thirds of the book...
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of spikemaniac

    spikemaniac

    [60]Apr 14, 2009
    • member since: 04/24/05
    • level: 50
    • rank: Airwolf
    • posts: 22,754
    This is getting extremely off topic, but I'll put in my Two cents anyways.
    While I do agree that the Twilight series is very poorly written, and the characters are superficial and lack depth, it is still, for some reason unknown to me, extremely addictive. It's so easy to get sucked into a fantasy world full of vampires, wussy, yes, but still, pretty and all vampire-ish. The corny dialogue is actually a lot of fun to read, too.
    I'd be lying majorly if I said Edward and Bella had more spark than Buffy/Angel, coz they really don't. In my opinion, Bangel is still the original human/vampire couple, ALTHOUGH, Bram Stoker's Dracula (the most 1999 film with Gary Oldman and Winona Ryder), which was obviously taken off the book, which I think was the first story of vampires ever told, showed a young woman called Willimina lusting after Dracula, and making out with him and smothering herself in her own blood to please him, and so on. He loved her too. But anyway.

    To give my opinion on the "free pass" thing, I agree with a lot of the posts on this thread, that if it wasn't a Joss project, we probably would've tuned out after episode 4 maybe, I know I would have. But being a Joss project, it was easy to have faith in the show, and it turns out I was right for having faith, because it did improve hugely.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.