We're moving Forums to the Community pages. Click here for more information and updates.

Dollhouse Forums

FOX (ended 2010)

Official Discussion Thread - "Epitaph 2: Return"

  • Avatar of grailwolf

    grailwolf

    [1]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 04/22/05
    • level: 55
    • rank: Bounty Dog
    • posts: 4,578

    Please discuss the episode "Epitaph 2: Return" in this thread. These threads will appear each week to prevent topics repeating themselves on the forum. Please limit episode discussion to the official thread for at least two days to avoid spoilers on other threads.

    Summary:

    In the year 2020, Echo and the few surviving Dollhouse staff struggle to restore mankind after the devastating events seen in the unaired first season episode, "Epitaph."

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of buffyTVSrox

    buffyTVSrox

    [2]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 07/14/05
    • level: 33
    • rank: Borg Queen
    • posts: 21,459
    He's with Bennett now...
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Peterb3291

    Peterb3291

    [3]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 09/22/08
    • level: 8
    • rank: Super-Friend
    • posts: 383
    Great episode and wrapped up the story real nicely.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Vesper-Lynd

    Vesper-Lynd

    [4]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 04/28/09
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 3,444
    I cried. I'm crying. And it's not just because the ending was so terribly heart wrenching, but that didn't help much.

    I love this show so much.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of CaptainHarkness

    CaptainHarkness

    [5]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 06/25/08
    • level: 23
    • rank: Close Talker
    • posts: 1,946
    Wow...I am very sad now. Grrr Argggh
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of grailwolf

    grailwolf

    [6]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 04/22/05
    • level: 55
    • rank: Bounty Dog
    • posts: 4,578
    Heartbreaking, but it was a hell of a run. Joss, you've done it again.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of lazyjay

    lazyjay

    [7]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 07/15/05
    • level: 30
    • rank: Anchorman
    • posts: 16,683
    Topher hurts worse than Wash.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of buffyTVSrox

    buffyTVSrox

    [8]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 07/14/05
    • level: 33
    • rank: Borg Queen
    • posts: 21,459
    Aww, now Echo can be intimate with Paul whenever she Brookes. How... "special".
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of wordlessdan

    wordlessdan

    [9]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 12/23/09
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 51
    Very unique ending that had me in tears most of the time. It's a shame how poorly people who haven't seen Epitaph One rate it here.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Vesper-Lynd

    Vesper-Lynd

    [10]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 04/28/09
    • level: 18
    • rank: Land Shark
    • posts: 3,444
    Aaaaand on second thought, WAY too many questions left unanswered. Even WITH such limited time to wrap up the series, they could have given us a little more than that. Not only were there questions, there were things that just didn't make the least bit of sense. Okay, may a *bit* of sense, I owe the man that much.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of The_Dude14

    The_Dude14

    [11]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 06/15/04
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 132

    Satisfying end to the series. Definately an upgrade over the last episode. Although part of me kinda prefers Epitaph One as the Series Finale, as the idea of our heroes pretty much completely failing is a fascinating concept, whereas the big reset button idea is just not as interesting, but they did it rather well, with enough caveats and sacrifice to make it meaningful and satisfying.

    Honestly, I thought this ep would be structured more like Epitaph One, mixing future and past. Not a complaint, but there was a lot they could have done with that.

    Its really hit me in the episode that this was the end. I'm surprised at how attached I am to this show and the characters, considering it was only around for, in effect, one season (of course, Firefly was around for considerably less...). I'm also beset by the untapped potential in the show. All that we will not see.

    So disappointed we never got to see a Ballard-Alpha confrontation. Doc Saunders. I'm also disappointed we never caught back up with Perrin. Dominic.

    Then there's Victor and the Beyond Thunderdome gang.

    Also, seeing Harry Lennix's name in the opening credits made me believe he would make an appearance, in some form. I was hoping it would be something to provide Boyd a little redemption, since that was a theme for the episode, a final note for the character, rather than Evil Boyd.

    Really enjoyed Alpha in this episode, trying so very hard at his psuedo-zen master. I wonder if he left Ballard's wedge for Echo.

    Everyone cracking up at Ballard's "hero" line was great. Zone also got in some good lines.

    Poor Ballard.

    For all the flak Eliza gets, I was definately touched by her Ballard breakdown.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of historylover20

    historylover20

    [12]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 10/06/05
    • level: 28
    • rank: Disco Stu
    • posts: 6,794

    In all honesty, I thought there was a little bit too much "Huh? What?.... Where did they get to that?... I have E1, but what?...."

    Too many unanswered questions. I have no clue how they got where they were in this one.

    Why did Tony choose to become Victor? He left behind Priya and their son. At least he came back.

    I want to know how Alpha became the good guy. Now, there would have been an interesting story! But, since I so love Alan Tudyk, I'm good.

    There were some "Aw..." moments, like Adelle feeding Topher. And Topher's death was very sad. When I first saw the pilot, I thought Topher would be the last person who would move me. (And Joss keeps his streak. Ballard and Topher.) But, it was really only moments. The rest was really just "meh." Or, I may have to watch it again to appreciate it. But, then again, I'm not the biggest fan of E1. I appreciate it, but I'm not in love with it.

    This one was just meh. And, it was mostly "Huh?" It really didn't wrap things up. But, it's not worth wrapping the story up in a movie (ala Serenity.) Last week's episode was a great finale. Things were wrapped up (with the exception of E1). This one didn't do it for me.

    Kat

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of BAGTbird

    BAGTbird

    [13]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 02/06/07
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 200
    The_Dude14 wrote:

    So disappointed we never got to see a Ballard-Alpha confrontation. Doc Saunders. I'm also disappointed we never caught back up with Perrin. Dominic.

    Was that not Perrin in Alpha's Dollhouse that said "I try to be my best"? Only saw him for a second, so I wasn't sure.

    I remember who Harding was, but was Ambrose the leader of the DC Dollhouse?

    I also just noticed that Enver has a chin to rival Jay Leno's.

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of historylover20

    historylover20

    [14]Jan 29, 2010
    • member since: 10/06/05
    • level: 28
    • rank: Disco Stu
    • posts: 6,794

    I don't think that was Perrin.

    This one was riddled with plot holes. No mention of Whiskey? Was she killed when the Butchers infiltrated and she turned on the gas? Yeah, what about Perrin? Is he still a doll? I know he's in Washington, but this whole apocalypse future would affect him. No mention of Dominic? Was he killed when the Rossum mainframe blew? And if that happened, then in E1, why was he there, in flashback, talking about his time in the Attic in the past tense?

    Why is Alpha sane? He wasn't the picture of sanity BEFORE his composite (he was a serial rapist and would-be murderer who liked to cut up people's faces). So, when did he get to be a good guy? Topher was looking at the pictures before the bomb blew up. Something caught his eye. What was it? Was his picture up there? (I don't remember) or had he just never seen the tribute wall before?

    Why was Tony able to control the tech when the other techheads couldn't? Not that this wasn't a good thing, but still...

    I still think even as rushed as "The Hollow Man" was, it made for a better finale.

    Kat

    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of netgoddess

    netgoddess

    [15]Jan 30, 2010
    • member since: 12/01/08
    • level: 10
    • rank: Holy Level 10!
    • posts: 694
    Normally I hate the reset switch plots but this one was decent, if everyone had waken up from the Rossum Mainframe with it all being a dream or some such I'd have been unhappy. But since the world was screwed over for a decade before the switch was flipped and there's still a lot to re build it didn't feel like a deus ex machina.

    I have to go watch E1 again. I feel like I missed some stuff. I could have sworn that I remember Caroline walking up to Adelle and shooting her in E1.

    All those people getting their original selves restored...what will it be like for kids who were imprinted at 5 yrs old and suddenly wake back up as a 10 year old? I guess it will be like the world suffered a massive coma.

    I'm not sure how Alpha suddenly became a good guy. I thought Ballard being shot was good, it was kind of the Joss signature thing to do I guess based on what happened in Serenity. It reminded me of what happened to a main character in the Sarah Connor Chronicles.

    So the show ended with a "happy ending" but not so happy as to feel like a Hollywood ending. I thought it was strong, I loved Topher's sacrifice and I think anyone would be insane like he is having to deal with what he was put through. I do wish Dominic had made an appearance.

    Echo was great when her advice to Sierra (forgot her real name) turned into mourning Ballard and being angry at her stupidity over not telling him how she felt.

    Felicia Day liking girls? Well...I think she's hot even in a wheelchair. I'd go for her given the opportunity.

    I'm sad to see this show go and wish that season two had been drawn out into at least two seasons. But at least this frees up Joss to work on something new, and I'm sure he'll come up with something impressive.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Jitske87

    Jitske87

    [16]Jan 30, 2010
    • member since: 12/12/07
    • level: 7
    • rank: Talk Show Host
    • posts: 30
    it was perfect.
    i cried throughout the last part of it.

    I think this was all very Joss like.
    And not everything needs answering, i like that.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of torrijos

    torrijos

    [17]Jan 30, 2010
    • member since: 11/09/06
    • level: 16
    • rank: Church Lady
    • posts: 252
    A little bit strange on the transitions between parts or maybe a too sudden end but still a nice way to tie up some lose ends.

    I for one was always a Topher fan, and much in the way Epitaph one was about him, I'm happy that in the end he was the one able to give the world another chance. His last glance to the "to remember" wall was a nice way to note it was still a pretty good run.

    Still wished we could see Dominic or others but still nice to see Alpha (nice pun to Victor about ruining his face ^^).

    Well it's over... Hoping for a new show from Josh, less corny, darker, more like Epitaph One, like Topher, Dominic, Alpha, Adele, Saunders and more importantly away from the networks please ^^. And maybe still a Sci-Fi show, since after killing Terminator and Dollhouse Fox left us (the ones lucky to have cable) with SG-Universe and Caprica.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of LegionofPhoenix

    LegionofPhoenix

    [18]Jan 30, 2010
    • member since: 09/19/07
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 17
    My objective side says the last episode was only ok. I died when Ballard did though.

    Felicia Day still, and will likely always have a special place in my heart. Also, kind of fell in love with Adelle. Oh, big pet peeve. Why couldn't they rig a remote control to set off the gamma bomb? My reasoning is that Topher wanted to die.

    Anyway. Questions off the top of my head I would like answered.

    1. Where did they find Caroline's hard drive in Epitaph 1? She must have been west and back to have the memories that the kid did in Epitaph 2.

    2. How and when did they capture Topher?

    I thought I had more questions, but oh well. Memory is a fickle thing *Zing!*

    I'll watch the episode again probably and come up with more.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of Happy_S-J

    Happy_S-J

    [19]Jan 30, 2010
    • member since: 09/14/08
    • level: 3
    • rank: Soup Nazi
    • posts: 7

    LegionofPhoenix wrote:
    Anyway. Questions off the top of my head I would like answered. 1. Where did they find Caroline's hard drive in Epitaph 1? She must have been west and back to have the memories that the kid did in Epitaph 2. 2. How and when did they capture Topher?

    1. When Echo and Ballard came back to the Dollhouse in the flashback in Epitaph One she made another copy of herself with the knowledge of where Safe Haven was, so in a sense she did go west and back.

    2. I dont think it really mattered how and when they captured Topher, it was probably your bog-standard kidnapping. He just needed to be in that situation to figure out how to make the pulse thingy and reset everyone.

    I liked the episode, it was very Joss Whedoney... I knew someone was going to die because it is Joss after all, but it still hurt to Ballard go, and Topher...especially Topher

    I thought it was a good ending to the series, didnt think we were left with many loose ends, and the ones we were left with werent too big a deal for me...I'm sad to see the series go.

    Edited on 01/30/2010 8:21am
    Edited 2 total times.
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.
  • Avatar of spikemaniac

    spikemaniac

    [20]Jan 30, 2010
    • member since: 04/24/05
    • level: 50
    • rank: Airwolf
    • posts: 22,755

    An overall good episode, I felt pretty satisfied with the ending. I was actually expecting something even more depressing, but I preferred it this way. I cried when Echo broke down over Paul's death. Also when Topher exploded.

    I loved how everyone burst out laughing at Ballard's "hero" line. It's such a Joss thing to do, when he makes his shows self-aware so that they make fun of themselves. It really was a corny line.
    The "Well you're... fat!" made me laugh really hard.

    Maurissa was AWESOME in this episode. You could so tell she wrote in her character to be totally cool.
    It was great seeing Alpha. Alan Tudyk was great, again. I laughed at "Why would someone do something so horrible to your face?"
    Felicia Day and Mo Tancharoen. That's hot. I bet they loved that.

    I loved all the music and the score in this episode. So epic. Especially when they were all fighting (the scene where Ballard got shot). That was a good scene.
    I agree that there were a few plot holes and a lot of unanswered questions, but to be honest I don't really care. I feel good with the ending, I feel good about the way it all wrapped up. I'm happy we got our little show all prettied up with a ribbon on it. It did feel a little rushed, like everything was happening way too soon. I would've loved to see what Joss really had in store and how it all would've turned out if given the time. Oh well.

    Question: At the end was Echo still Echo or was she Caroline now? I thought she was Caroline but if she took Ballard's imprint... I don't know. That confused me a little.


    BAGTbird wrote:
    I also just noticed that Enver has a chin to rival Jay Leno's.

    Haha, yeah it's huge. I can't stop staring it. It also rivals Quentin Tarantino's.

    historylover20 wrote:
    Topher was looking at the pictures before the bomb blew up. Something caught his eye. What was it? Was his picture up there? (I don't remember) or had he just never seen the tribute wall before?

    I want to know this too.

    LegionofPhoenix wrote:
    Why couldn't they rig a remote control to set off the gamma bomb? My reasoning is that Topher wanted to die.

    Yeah I agree.

    Edited on 01/30/2010 8:31am
    You must be registered and logged in to post a message.