Dollhouse Forums

FOX (ended 2010)

Official Discussion Thread - "Epitaph 2: Return"

  • Avatar of TwistedConverse

    TwistedConverse

    [21]Jan 30, 2010
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    A good episode but not one of the best imo, I could name around 10 episodes I liked more. The Adelle/Topher stuff was amazing, Eliza gave a really fantastic performance and the end scene was just perfect but the rest... only "quite good".

    I really was not bothered at all when Ballard died. I was sad when Echo was screaming at Priya and I really liked the bit where she imprinted herself with him (an awesome twist on the "always be a part of me" thingy) but I didn't like the character and was not moved at all by his pretty random death.

    Alpha as a good guy was weird. Not even a small explanation why if I'm right. And we didn't find out the deal with Topher and Whiskey .

    Victor/Sierra stuff was pretty dull, a shame cause I usually like them but didn't do anything for me here .

    Topher's death was real sad and Fran was amazing here.

    I can't believe I'm saying it but I'm disappointed . Not a patch on E1 and by the far the worst Whedon finale imo - Chosen, Not Fade Away and Objects In Space are all miles better .

    Really sad the show is over though. Stupid FOX .
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  • Avatar of LukCPL

    LukCPL

    [22]Jan 30, 2010
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    What an amazing episode. Fantastic writing, acting, direction, music... just everything. I almost cried a few times. I'm going to miss this show so much. Oh well at least this time we got some sort of closure, unlike some other Joss shows

    I hope Joss makes a new amazing show soon, and FAR FAR away from Fox

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  • Avatar of spikemaniac

    spikemaniac

    [23]Jan 30, 2010
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    TwistedConverse wrote:
    by the far the worst Whedon finale imo - Chosen, Not Fade Away and Objects In Space are all miles better .

    Oh yes, definitely. They are 100% better as far as finales go.
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  • Avatar of torrijos

    torrijos

    [24]Jan 30, 2010
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    spikemaniac wrote:
    Question: At the end was Echo still Echo or was she Caroline now

    She stayed in the doll house with some of the techies because they wanted to stay the way they were in the present, Priya to keep memories of her son and such so Echo was definitely Echo.
    Strange thing is that Alpha went out in order to get wiped but since he is like Echo special he will probably re-evolve, without killing too many people this time maybe? ^^

    historylover20 wrote:
    Topher was looking at the pictures before the bomb blew up. Something caught his eye. What was it? Was his picture up there? (I don't remember) or had he just never seen the tribute wall before?
    I believe it was just the pure joy people get when they watch old pictures, it reminded him of the good times. For me that's what made that scene sweet-bitter, he died thinking not of all the wrongs he created but of the people he loved.

    LegionofPhoenix wrote:
    Why couldn't they rig a remote control to set off the gamma bomb?

    I too think that Topher felt it was enough he had no fight or life left in him. One of the great things of Epitaph One was the fact that we witnessed the evolution of Topher the one genius without whom nothing would have happened.
    In the beginning of Epitaph 1 we saw Topher "childhood", be very exited to work in the dollhouse, then we saw his "adulthood" the defining moment of his life, when Ambrose explained what the tech was going to be used for, the realization of what he created, and in the end of the episode was Topher "old age" where he was eaten by the guilt of all he did.
    In Epitaph two he gets to give people a second chance, more that he could have hoped for, before he dies. Great send-off.
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  • Avatar of robdude123

    robdude123

    [25]Jan 30, 2010
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    You guys obviously don't know what a plot hole is. There were none. Pretty good episode though I feel like Mag and Zone were pretty useless characters and everything they did in Epitaph One seems irrelevant to this episode.
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  • Avatar of spikemaniac

    spikemaniac

    [26]Jan 30, 2010
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    torrijos wrote:
    spikemaniac wrote:
    Question: At the end was Echo still Echo or was she Caroline now

    She stayed in the doll house with some of the techies because they wanted to stay the way they were in the present, Priya to keep memories of her son and such so Echo was definitely Echo.

    So does that mean Caroline is dead now? Or she's still in a wedge but she's not in a body?
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  • Avatar of historylover20

    historylover20

    [27]Jan 30, 2010
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    robdude123 wrote:
    You guys obviously don't know what a plot hole is. There were none. Pretty good episode though I feel like Mag and Zone were pretty useless characters and everything they did in Epitaph One seems irrelevant to this episode.

    I don't think you know what a plot hole is.

    From Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

    A plot hole, or plothole, is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behavior or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

    Relevant information, like why Alpha is sane now? That kind of relevant information? Not happening in this one. Alpha was awesome, but there was no rhyme or reason why he was sane. And that was a blatant omission of that relevant information pertains to plot and characterization.

    From TV Tropes http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole

    Plot Holes are those annoying gaps in a story where things happen without a logical reason. When a plot hole involves something essential to a story's outcome, it can hurt the believability severely for those who are bothered by it. Hitting a Plot Hole at high speed can damage your Suspension of Disbelief.

    Plot holes can come in many forms:

    Characters suddenly having knowledge that was never passed to them.

    Characters acting completely out of character.

    An event does not logically follow from what has gone before.

    So, yeah, this had a bunch of plot holes. By its very definition.

    Kat

    Edited on 01/30/2010 10:25am
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  • Avatar of CharmedOneP391

    CharmedOneP391

    [28]Jan 30, 2010
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    I enjoyed the episode. I was wonering if little carolyne and echo would meet which they did. Does Echo have Carolyne in her already? I was surprised that she ended as Echo and not as Caroline, but at the same time I liked it. I agree that there are far better Dollhouse episodes though, such as Omega and Getting Closer. E1 was actually probably better also.

    Alpha=good guy?? weirdest part of it all. It was cool that Pyra and Tony had a kid. & I fannly realize where i'd seen zone before and he was in the 'styx feet under' episode of charmed.

    spikemaniac wrote:
    TwistedConverse wrote:
    by the far the worst Whedon finale imo - Chosen, Not Fade Away and Objects In Space are all miles better .
    Oh yes, definitely. They are 100% better as far as finales go.

    But i noticed that Joss Whedon DID NOT even write write the episode. His brother did though, and 2 other people. Now thats strange.

    I thought E2 was better than Not Fade Away (if not the same) but pales in comparison to Chosen.

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  • Avatar of zitzitta

    zitzitta

    [29]Jan 30, 2010
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    Even those who say "meh" can't help but put forward lots of questions. And that, the fact that it makes us question things, is one more reason to applaud Whedon's work. He manages to get us involved and believe in a world that exists only in his mind, and even though there are people who always criticize his work, they also can't help but watch it and wonder about it: that's the point, boys and girls!! I'm down now, 'cause I know I'll have to wait too long to get to see another Whedon "construct": yeeeesh!
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  • Avatar of historylover20

    historylover20

    [30]Jan 30, 2010
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    zitzitta wrote:
    Even those who say "meh" can't help but put forward lots of questions. And that, the fact that it makes us question things, is one more reason to applaud Whedon's work. He manages to get us involved and believe in a world that exists only in his mind, and even though there are people who always criticize his work, they also can't help but watch it and wonder about it: that's the point, boys and girls!! I'm down now, 'cause I know I'll have to wait too long to get to see another Whedon "construct": yeeeesh!

    That's a good point. But, hopefully the rumor of Dr. Horrible 2 isn't just a rumor. And that will be Joss Whedon's next project.

    Kat

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  • Avatar of Vesper-Lynd

    Vesper-Lynd

    [31]Jan 30, 2010
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    It doesn't really make sense though. Caroline was imprinted back into **** in "Getting Closer" and we know that **** simply can't be wiped anymore, so Caroline has to be in there somewhere. Now, it's also possible that **** just became dominant and just totally quashed Caroline and is now suppressing her.

    Why is Echo being censored? Am I missing something glaringly obvious?

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  • Avatar of LTWind

    LTWind

    [32]Jan 30, 2010
    • member since: 01/05/10
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    I gotta say the last run of episodes this year was really good it is too bad we did not get to see the full vision. However I thought it was a HORRIBLE final episode. It was just too much to fast and everything was accomplished WAY too easy and the big death was so lame. I mean after the years of hell they were through he is going to get killed like that by a mindless zombie like they would be that careless at that time, that was a huge flaw for me. This needed at least another hour if not 2 to be able to wrap it up in the future the way they tried.
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  • Avatar of historylover20

    historylover20

    [33]Jan 30, 2010
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    Vesper-Lynd wrote:

    It doesn't really make sense though. Caroline was imprinted back into **** in "Getting Closer" and we know that **** simply can't be wiped anymore, so Caroline has to be in there somewhere. Now, it's also possible that **** just became dominant and just totally quashed Caroline and is now suppressing her.

    Why is Echo being censored? Am I missing something glaringly obvious?

    I'm still trying to figure out why cl-ss is censored. But, I've seen "Echo" censored, and I can't figure out why either.

    Kat

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  • Avatar of KingofIPirates

    KingofIPirates

    [34]Jan 30, 2010
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    Good episode overall, was quite entertaining throughout. Got off to an amusing start and the dialogue remained especially crisp for about 1/3 of the way in the plot; especially found the reaction to Ballards Hero line hilarious and the recognition as to just how corny that line really was. His death was somewhat surprising and I even felt a tinge of sadness during Echo's grieving process. Granted the entire premise of a reverse-wipe felt rather rushed and far too convenient but even so it remained convincing enough eitherway.
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  • Avatar of Vesper-Lynd

    Vesper-Lynd

    [35]Jan 30, 2010
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    historylover20 wrote:
    Vesper-Lynd wrote:

    It doesn't really make sense though. Caroline was imprinted back into **** in "Getting Closer" and we know that **** simply can't be wiped anymore, so Caroline has to be in there somewhere. Now, it's also possible that **** just became dominant and just totally quashed Caroline and is now suppressing her.

    Why is Echo being censored? Am I missing something glaringly obvious?

    I'm still trying to figure out why cl-ss is censored. But, I've seen "Echo" censored, and I can't figure out why either.

    Kat

    I can understand "class" because the word for donkey is in there. But "Echo" seriously boggles my mind. Unless it's because of the last two letters. No way...
    Edited on 01/30/2010 1:54pm
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  • Avatar of netgoddess

    netgoddess

    [36]Jan 30, 2010
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    torrijos wrote:
    A little bit strange on the transitions between parts or maybe a too sudden end but still a nice way to tie up some lose ends.
    I noticed that too, no fade to black it just paused the video for a second or two before cutting to commercial.
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  • Avatar of netgoddess

    netgoddess

    [37]Jan 30, 2010
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    historylover20 wrote:
    I can understand "class" because the word for donkey is in there. But "Echo" seriously boggles my mind. Unless it's because of the last two letters. No way...
    ho ho ho...
    Edited on 01/30/2010 2:45pm
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  • Avatar of TwistedConverse

    TwistedConverse

    [38]Jan 30, 2010
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    CharmedOneP391 wrote:

    I enjoyed the episode. I was wonering if little carolyne and echo would meet which they did. Does Echo have Carolyne in her already? I was surprised that she ended as Echo and not as Caroline, but at the same time I liked it. I agree that there are far better Dollhouse episodes though, such as Omega and Getting Closer. E1 was actually probably better also.

    Alpha=good guy?? weirdest part of it all. It was cool that Pyra and Tony had a kid. & I fannly realize where i'd seen zone before and he was in the 'styx feet under' episode of charmed.

    spikemaniac wrote:
    TwistedConverse wrote:
    by the far the worst Whedon finale imo - Chosen, Not Fade Away and Objects In Space are all miles better .
    Oh yes, definitely. They are 100% better as far as finales go.

    But i noticed that Joss Whedon DID NOT even write write the episode. His brother did though, and 2 other people. Now thats strange.

    I thought E2 was better than Not Fade Away (if not the same) but pales in comparison to Chosen.



    But Not Fade Away is just... perfect. I think I actually prefer it to Chosen. The last 10 minutes are just outstandingly good.
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  • Avatar of Peterb3291

    Peterb3291

    [39]Jan 30, 2010
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    Agree I liked Not Fade Away more than Chosen too I think it's a required taste
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  • Avatar of osdawaya16

    osdawaya16

    [40]Jan 30, 2010
    • member since: 04/18/07
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    lazyjay wrote:
    Topher hurts worse than Wash.


    No!! Haha Nothing hurts more than Wash... I still get teary whenever I watch Serenity. Topher was really sad though...But he knew what was going to happen and we expected it. Wash was a surprise..A horrible, terrible surprise!
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