Dollhouse Forums

FOX (ended 2010)

Official Discussion Thread - "Epitaph 2: Return"

  • Avatar of DuoMaxwell007

    DuoMaxwell007

    [41]Jan 30, 2010
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    Ballards death was rushed, I mean seriously he walks out and gets shot in the head outta nowhere and dies... just like that.,.. coulda at least made it dramatic or somethin, Ive ssen deaths in animes and even video games that made me cry.. yet Ballard... just fell over... that was it... Im like ok that was lame... at least Tophers was actually dramatic (though i still dindt cry) that whole ending seemed rushed though (but the reason why is obvious), a last "epic" climatic one on one fight of good vs evil woulda been nice and at least a 5 min or so epilogue that take splace a year (or 10?) after the reset to see how the world is coping and what the media is calling the phenomenon when people suddenly "woke up" to se the world looked lik eit been at war while they were sleep.
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  • Avatar of Sagerian

    Sagerian

    [42]Jan 31, 2010
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    I had a great time watching the finale last night. I had friends over who hadn't seen the last 4 episodes, so we watched those, then got some Italian, checked out E1 and then watched E2 right after.

    First off, I've got to say I love how Joss can write things that can make me laugh and cry in the same scene. I loved the episode overall but I still have so many questions. I'd really like to know more context about Boyd. Harding made mention that if Echo didn't take Rossum down that maybe the tech wouldn't have gotten out of control. I kinda believe that but without knowing more about Boyd I guess we'll never know.

    My theories on Alpha's change include him going to the LA dollhouse and seeing Whiskey's body (I can only assume she died at the end of E1 now), and I can't help but feel that Ballard's imprint softened Alpha somewhat. The rest I guess is left up to imagination but I loved nice Alpha just as much as insane Alpha.

    Topher's story was my highlight of the episode and just so sad, I just wanted to give the guy a hug. It was kind of sweet how Adelle was looking after him. Topher is with Bennett now. That creepyarse scene at the end with Echo and Ballard, I shall pretend that was Topher and Bennett. Speaking of that scene, that was probably the only bit of the episode I thought was kinda stupid.

    Very sad and a little angry that it's all over now.

    Edited on 01/31/2010 1:52am
    Edited 3 total times.
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  • Avatar of VConn

    VConn

    [43]Jan 31, 2010
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    lazyjay wrote:
    Topher hurts worse than Wash.
    Gotta disagree with that one Topher's death hurt don't get me wrong but you knew it was coming so it was expected whereas no-one could have foreseen Wash's death which makes it even harder to fathom. All in all great episode that provided closure and probably the best Whedon show finale ever.

    It was great to see Alan Tudyk return as a heroic Alpha especially since he wasn't mentioned on tv.com in the E2 synopsis and his sudden departure was the one thing that annoyed me apart from Ballard's death though iot does provide interesting possibilities for an Alpha spin-off or DOLLHOUSE movie in a few years...fingers crossed.

    As I said Ballard's death was the only thing about the episode that really annoyed me there was really no need for it though I suppose it was kind of obvious that someone HAD to die during the fight - Damn Ballard and his ever present desire to save the damsel in distress. Great to see Tony and Priya ending up together with their son, I only rewatched E1 before E2 and was shocked to realize I missed her pregnancy status during my first viewing of E1.

    The other thing that did have me confused was the lack of Mr Dominic/Boyd and Doc Saunders their scene in E1 made it seem like they'd be involved in E2 in a rather significant way and I was looking forward to seeing their stories resolved though with the exception of Dominic they al had final resolutions (Boyd blew himself up and presumably Whiskey died in the explosion - Or did Echo kill her I forget). Anyway overall brilliant stuff Joss and I just hope someone someday gives him the money to do a final movie to show the world post-pulse and to really resolve everything completely but this was still one of the best show endings ever (Not just Whedon shows).

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  • Avatar of torrijos

    torrijos

    [44]Jan 31, 2010
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    VConn wrote:
    The other thing that did have me confused was the lack of Mr Dominic/Boyd and Doc Saunders their scene in E1 made it seem like they'd be involved in E2 in a rather significant way and I was looking forward to seeing their stories resolved though with the exception of Dominic they al had final resolutions (Boyd blew himself up and presumably Whiskey died in the explosion - Or did Echo kill her I forget).


    Boyd died in the explosion, and his scenes in E1 where taken from "The Hollow Men".

    Dominic status is unresolved .From "The Hollow Men" we know that he was send back in the mainframe but from E1 we know he is woken up some time after the Apocalypse (the scene where he shoots at Adelle).
    What happens to him after the Apocalypse until E1 and why he isn't around remains a mystery.

    Whiskey didn't die in the explosion, but she dies in E1 when she gases the dollhouse.
    Alpha cleaned the dollhouse and the bodies in the month that followed (since at least one month has passed between E1 and E2).
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  • Avatar of Vesper-Lynd

    Vesper-Lynd

    [45]Jan 31, 2010
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    Whiskey is just a bunch of questions left unanswered.

    Why did they reimprint her with Saunders after all the dolls were imprinted with their own personalities? Why did they fix her face? When did this happen? I can imagine this happened after the events of Hollow Men and before the world started getting wiped.

    Did Boyd ever love Saunders or was that somehow all faked? Because he seemed mighty alright with seeing Clyde having taken over her body. A little more than mighty alright since he probably helped make it happen. Then again, what we saw felt very real.

    What exactly happened to make her regress to Whiskey and choose to stay in the abandoned Dollhouse? If it was intentional, why not leave her as someone who could actually take care of herself?

    As of now, probably the least important, who was she before she came to the Dollhouse?

    Edited on 01/31/2010 9:11am
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  • Avatar of Killer1One

    Killer1One

    [46]Jan 31, 2010
    • member since: 10/07/08
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    Bye Bye Dollhouse The episode was not bad but it was not that good for me.

    Weakest ending for Josh so far.

    Even so at least we get some clousure and i will miss this show.

    RIP Topher RIP Ballard the only two characters i actually liked.

    At least ECHO is still ECHO

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  • Avatar of thetruesora

    thetruesora

    [47]Jan 31, 2010
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    I just want to make sure I didn't miss any of the ending... is it just Echo lies down in her old bed/chamber?

    WHY DID TOPHER HAVE TO DIE!?!?!?!?!? Ballard's death just seemed random, I really liked him. Alpha was awesome but his sudden departure seemed weird. I'm guessing it's that where he's "evolved" we're supposed to believe when he is reset he won't become a psychopath again but continue to be a good person just free from all the other personalities in his head.
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  • Avatar of fatfreeoreos

    fatfreeoreos

    [48]Jan 31, 2010
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    I watched this episode at my boyfriend's house with him and another couple and they all loved it even though they had no idea what the frilly heck was going on. That's something.

    I gasped out loud when Ballard got shot. I wanted to cry, seriously. And I was really excited that we got to see how everyone survived and such. Viktor really surprised me. I kind of liked the concept of the techheads, but I wasn't too sure about why Tony would choose to do something like that after fighting so hard earlier. And can I just say, Dollhouse had so many gorgeous women, it just hit me so hard when this ep aired. Adelle, Echo, Priya, Whiskey, Mag, Bennet, Mo's character. And even Jeremy noticed Enver's chin....

    And anyway...I liked seeing Alpha being a good guy, though I too wish there had been at least a few throwaway lines on why he's there. Just a little bit. And Topher - oh god...he was the best of them all. So innocent in the end, adorable and sad. And his little finger kiss to the video of Bennet was adorable.

    All in all, I liked it. I wish it had answered more of my questions, the biggest being: who exactly is/was Whiskey and how did she know Topher? That bugged me the most of anything. But I suppose that's just like Firefly in the end, who was Book? We'll never know.
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  • Avatar of torrijos

    torrijos

    [49]Jan 31, 2010
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    thetruesora wrote:
    Alpha was awesome but his sudden departure seemed weird. I'm guessing it's that where he's "evolved" we're supposed to believe when he is reset he won't become a psychopath again but continue to be a good person just free from all the other personalities in his head.


    I think that the thing with Alpha is the same as Echo, both of their bodies must have been able to produce the antidote (since they both had the same capabilities vis-a-vis imprinting). There is no way they can be wiped clear for good of their multiple personalities, both of them cannot regress to their original states (Caroline and whatever his real name was).
    What the global wipe would do to them is only erase their memory but sooner or later all the personalities would have resurfaced.

    Did Alpha went out in order to erase his memories? Or did he just went some place else, just to be on the safe side about the wipe, in order not to wake up a psychopath in the dollhouse and kill all his new friends?

    A little disappointed that some time was lost (like with the techies trying to get all the tech) when there were so many interesting things to answer to.
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  • Avatar of KingofIPirates

    KingofIPirates

    [50]Jan 31, 2010
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    Vesper-Lynd wrote:
    What exactly happened to make her regress to Whiskey and choose to stay in the abandoned Dollhouse? If it was intentional, why not leave her as someone who could actually take care of herself?
    From what I gathered in Epitaph 1 she couldn't take the loneliness and did it to herself.
    torrijos wrote:

    Did Alpha went out in order to erase his memories? Or did he just went some place else, just to be on the safe side about the wipe, in order not to wake up a psychopath in the dollhouse and kill all his new friends?
    Didn't really make much sense, they stated was that he feared that his original personal would surface and would endanger their friends but the Bunker would've provided them protection.. Guess he wanted to be on the safe side.
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  • Avatar of tjaman

    tjaman

    [51]Jan 31, 2010
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    Gotta say, as a "finale" it was a complete disconnect from the episodes leading up to it. I do know it would've made more sense to me if I'd seen Epitaph One, but ... I didn't. As it was, I found this episode to be pretty disappointing as a series finale. I love Joss, but I can't really give him this one, sorry.
    Edited on 01/31/2010 6:04pm
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  • Avatar of fatfreeoreos

    fatfreeoreos

    [52]Jan 31, 2010
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    You should watch Epitaph One sometime. It's really good, and will shine some light on this episode.
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  • Avatar of thetruesora

    thetruesora

    [53]Jan 31, 2010
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    I made sure to watch Epitaph One right before watching this one so it was fresh in my memory. I've said it before but I'll say it again, with what happened to Topher he personally was better off before getting a conscience.
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  • Avatar of buffyTVSrox

    buffyTVSrox

    [54]Jan 31, 2010
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    tjaman wrote:
    I do know it would've made more sense to me if I'd seen Epitaph One, but ... I didn't.


    Dollhouse fan fail.
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  • Avatar of fatfreeoreos

    fatfreeoreos

    [55]Jan 31, 2010
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    buffyTVSrox wrote:
    tjaman wrote:
    I do know it would've made more sense to me if I'd seen Epitaph One, but ... I didn't.

    Dollhouse fan fail.

    Hehe.
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  • Avatar of S-Shield

    S-Shield

    [56]Jan 31, 2010
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    I liked it. On the whole, I liked Season 2 way better than Season 1. As such, I wasn't about to shell out the $30 for the dvd, so I never saw Epitaph 1, but I don't feel like I missed much. Even the stuff they didn't explain, like Good Alpha and Road Warrior Victor, didn't feel like plot holes to me. Obviously a lot of stuff went down in the preceding ten years. Not everything needs to be explained.

    It really bugged me when Ballard died, because I never get how a character can be lucky/skilled enough to survive an entire Whedon series (+ ten years of hell, no less) only to be killed in the home stretch. It's almost becoming an M. Night Shyamalan-esque cliche. "What a twist!" But the ending with Echo finally "letting Paul in" was beautiful in a tragic, non-traditional sort of way that really fit the series.

    Most of all, I liked the feel of this episode, the tone and the mood. I liked how there was no "final boss" to defeat or ticking clock to diffuse. Just some stuff they had to do, in their own time. I really liked this episode.

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  • Avatar of tv_lover066

    tv_lover066

    [57]Feb 1, 2010
    • member since: 02/26/07
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    Huh...

    bout sums it up.

    I think I was too excited about seeing some burning questions revealed that I either a) didn't have what i want answered or b) just wasn't satisfied which is a shame.

    It was good for a wrap things up episode but the damn shame is that not enough of the characters were explored in the depth needed for me to really be satisfied with any ending. .

    Ballard being shot, I like it that he was just shot on the street, no warning because ususally its big heart wrenching stuff, this i just found hilarious...not emotional at all.I loved his corny line about heroes lmao...such a dork... and particularly his oh so clever "youre...fat" comeback! nice.

    Super unhappy about Alpha! It's like i wait all season for him to appear...he does, ballard's brain goes poof then alpha disappears. So here i am just itching to see him again and look what we get? flashforward and he's all of a sudden good? It feels like such an injustice to the character. He came in with such potential but its like all of a sudden he was of no interest and had like no purpose? The whole he evolved thing... *cough* how convenient *cough*.

    Where was Amy Acker??? I think everyone needed closure on Whiskey/Dr.Saunders' character? who was she really? how did she become the doctor again after becoming that evil dude (clyde i think??)? or is that just a plot hole? GRRRRRR

    The kid...who was the kid? was she just caroline? or was she echo? because if the latter be true then how did the kid maintain all of the personalities in her head when only "evolved" people can? GRARGH

    GRRRRR so many questions. i just need to know more....more dammit. everything was just so rushed, Dominic...where was Dominic? he just pops out the attic ... they shove him back in and that is that???? GRRRRR

    Finally (i say finally but i have so much more GRAGHRAHAHGING to do I just wanna wrap this up) Echo putting Ballard in her head...thats just weird. super creepy and a little inappropriate. i just dont see it working out. what if they get into a fight? i would love to just see echo in a fight with herself hehe.

    So Overall thoughts are : why dammit why...stupid fox network...get behind a show but essentially doom it to death!

    EDIT: AND the whole reset button?? *cough* how convenient *cough* .... but i get it they wanted to give some closure for the show...but a reset button??

    and how exactly is everyone's correct minds supposed to get into their body? so much confusion!

    Edited on 02/01/2010 5:57am
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  • Avatar of thetruesora

    thetruesora

    [58]Feb 1, 2010
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    The kid was only Caroline scanned from Echo after she returned to the Dollhouse to make a backup to lead to safehaven if necessary.
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  • Avatar of Lady_Lancaster

    Lady_Lancaster

    [59]Feb 1, 2010
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    I thought this finale was going to be so much more impressive than it actually was and I was disappointed with that. I'm not saying it was terrible, just nowhere near the normal level of class I have come to expect from Joss Whedon. There were so many unanswered questions and so many events that, to me, didn't seem necessary when we were supposed to be wrapping up a series and putting it all into some nice neat bundle. I didn't see the end of "Firefly" but I did see the end of both "Buffy" and "Angel" and they were both done so much better than this in the sense that the viewers had a sense of closure and at least a fairly good idea of where the characters were heading in the future.

    I feel that even though Fox pulled the plug on the show, the team had enough time to write something better and not rush it so much. I think the previous episode would have made a better finale so I am disappointed but I am glad that the show went for 2 seasons because Season 2 was so very much better than Season 1 and it was worth watching, even though the ratinngs were pretty dismal, which is a shame but that's the way it goes. You win some, you lose some.

    If Joss does another show in the future, I certainly wish him all the luck in the world and hope its ratings are good enough to keep it on the air as long as "Buffy".

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  • Avatar of historylover20

    historylover20

    [60]Feb 1, 2010
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    A couple of you have hit on this, and I want to hit on some of your points.

    Some of you haven't seen E1, for whatever reason. I don't think that makes you bad fans. Quite the contrary.

    I'm one who isn't incredibly impressed with E1. Don't get me wrong--I like it. But I wasn't blown away by it. The reason being is that there was no context. Suddenly, we're 10 years in the future, with no reason to be 10 years into the future. "Oh, look at the flashbacks... apparently, the apocalypse started due to real people being remotely wiped? OK..."

    Joss didn't write either episode. Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon did. Yes, Joss approved it, but neither E1 nor E2 were Joss'.

    So, they are basing a finale around an unaired episode. Not only that, E1 was never meant to air. It was an experiment to see if they could shoot an episode on cheaper video tape whil they were filming "Omega." E1 was only meant for the DVD, a 13th episode in order to have the season 1 DVD come out.

    Now, some people couldn't afford season 1 on DVD, so they haven't bought it or watched E1. That doesn't make them fail as fans. Others have the DVD, but chose not to watch E1, because, given an idea world, Dollhouse would have built to E1 and they didn't want to spoil themselves.

    Maybe, once we saw that the finale was going to be based off E1, they could have found E1 somewhere. But, they didn't. That was their decision.

    I personally think it's ridiculous to base a series finale off an unaired episode. But, just because you haven't seen E1 doesn't make you fail as fans. So, the ones of us who have seen E1 and knew a little of what was going on shouldn't be implying that either.

    Kat

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