Dollhouse Forums

FOX (ended 2010)

Official Discussion Thread - "Epitaph 2: Return"

  • Avatar of TwistedConverse

    TwistedConverse

    [61]Feb 1, 2010
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    historylover20 wrote:

    A couple of you have hit on this, and I want to hit on some of your points.

    Some of you haven't seen E1, for whatever reason. I don't think that makes you bad fans. Quite the contrary.

    I'm one who isn't incredibly impressed with E1. Don't get me wrong--I like it. But I wasn't blown away by it. The reason being is that there was no context. Suddenly, we're 10 years in the future, with no reason to be 10 years into the future. "Oh, look at the flashbacks... apparently, the apocalypse started due to real people being remotely wiped? OK..."

    Joss didn't write either episode. Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon did. Yes, Joss approved it, but neither E1 nor E2 were Joss'.

    So, they are basing a finale around an unaired episode. Not only that, E1 was never meant to air. It was an experiment to see if they could shoot an episode on cheaper video tape whil they were filming "Omega." E1 was only meant for the DVD, a 13th episode in order to have the season 1 DVD come out.

    Now, some people couldn't afford season 1 on DVD, so they haven't bought it or watched E1. That doesn't make them fail as fans. Others have the DVD, but chose not to watch E1, because, given an idea world, Dollhouse would have built to E1 and they didn't want to spoil themselves.

    Maybe, once we saw that the finale was going to be based off E1, they could have found E1 somewhere. But, they didn't. That was their decision.

    I personally think it's ridiculous to base a series finale off an unaired episode. But, just because you haven't seen E1 doesn't make you fail as fans. So, the ones of us who have seen E1 and knew a little of what was going on shouldn't be implying that either.

    Kat



    E1 is all over the internet. It's not as if it is necessary to buy the DVD's to see it.
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    Silvercloak5098

    [62]Feb 1, 2010
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    Thank you!!! That clarifies my confusion. I started this episode going... Wha..?! Where the frak is all this coming from? Now I know what to look for.
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  • Avatar of fatfreeoreos

    fatfreeoreos

    [63]Feb 1, 2010
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    It's true that it is a little weird to base the finale off the DVD episode, but you had to have known it was coming. If there's an Epitaph One, it seems likely that a second epitaph will follow.
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  • Avatar of tjaman

    tjaman

    [64]Feb 1, 2010
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    I dislike watching television programs on the internet. There. I said it.
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  • Avatar of drashee

    drashee

    [65]Feb 1, 2010
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    Anyone know what song was played at the very end of the episode??
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  • Avatar of historylover20

    historylover20

    [66]Feb 1, 2010
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    tjaman wrote:
    I dislike watching television programs on the internet. There. I said it.

    See? Exactly one of the reasons why they shouldn't have based the series finale off an unaired episode. It doesn't matter if E1 is all over the internet. Some people don't like watching shows off a computer. Others didn't watch it for fear that they would be spoiled.

    Kat

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  • Avatar of buffyTVSrox

    buffyTVSrox

    [67]Feb 1, 2010
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    historylover20 wrote:
    A couple of you have hit on this, and I want to hit on some of your points.

    Some of you haven't seen E1, for whatever reason. I don't think that makes you bad fans. Quite the contrary.

    I'm one who isn't incredibly impressed with E1. Don't get me wrong--I like it. But I wasn't blown away by it. The reason being is that there was no context. Suddenly, we're 10 years in the future, with no reason to be 10 years into the future. "Oh, look at the flashbacks... apparently, the apocalypse started due to real people being remotely wiped? OK..."

    Joss didn't write either episode. Maurissa Tancharoen and Jed Whedon did. Yes, Joss approved it, but neither E1 nor E2 were Joss'.

    So, they are basing a finale around an unaired episode. Not only that, E1 was never meant to air. It was an experiment to see if they could shoot an episode on cheaper video tape whil they were filming "Omega." E1 was only meant for the DVD, a 13th episode in order to have the season 1 DVD come out.

    Now, some people couldn't afford season 1 on DVD, so they haven't bought it or watched E1. That doesn't make them fail as fans. Others have the DVD, but chose not to watch E1, because, given an idea world, Dollhouse would have built to E1 and they didn't want to spoil themselves.

    Maybe, once we saw that the finale was going to be based off E1, they could have found E1 somewhere. But, they didn't. That was their decision.

    I personally think it's ridiculous to base a series finale off an unaired episode. But, just because you haven't seen E1 doesn't make you fail as fans. So, the ones of us who have seen E1 and knew a little of what was going on shouldn't be implying that either.

    Kat


    I love it when people take random comments I make way more seriously than they were meant to be taken. I even included a "" face. You're silly. I prefer the Svooey-Svoo Kit Kat.

    All I was saying is that the episode is available both on DVD (available for purchase in stores and online, and available at many libraries for free) and online. Yes, you may have reasons why you didn't watch E1. But don't purposefully avoid a big part of the canon and then complain that there's no context without that piece. It was available. I may as well skip "Surprise" and then complain that "Innocence" came out of nowhere. It's not quite the same because E1 was unaired, but it's comparable.

    And as for why they're ten years in the future all of a sudden in E1 and E2, that wasn't a problem for me. It was clear they weren't getting ten seasons, and they had a plot that could have easily filled that. They had to choose what part to cut out. Either they cut out a huge chunk in the middle but show us how it turns out and let us fill in the blanks, which they did, or they show us up to where they can with no time skipped and we get no resolution and are left with no idea where they were going with the show. Between those two choices, I'm much more satisfied with what they chose to do.

    And I can't believe people are complaining about unresolved plotlines. OF COURSE there are unresolved plotlines. This isn't Ugly Betty. It's a freakishly complex show with lots of mystery and lots of potential stories. They had all of, what, six episodes after they found out they were canceled to go from 30% through the story to 100%? It's FOX's fault there are unresolved plots, not the writers'. I dare anyone to fit as much as they did in with a different script without coming off as an unentertaining block of random exposition.

    Am I sad we never got to see Alpha evolve into a good guy? That we never find out about Whiskey's past? Of course. But I would hardly say the writers didn't do a good enough job.

    And anyone who can't see how the ability to wipe and imprint anyone at all remotely can lead to a near apocalypse has a limited imagination.

    And I sure hope the people who thought this finale was too convenient aren't any of the same people who thought Buffy's finale was better. Does anyone else remember how absurdly convenient that was?
    ***SPOILER***
    The reset button is nowhere near as contrived, and it didn't feel too easy because the world is still left in ruins and with decades of reconstruction ahead of them.

    I swear, people are way too hard to please.
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  • Avatar of TwistedConverse

    TwistedConverse

    [68]Feb 1, 2010
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    Svooey-Svoo Kit Kat is like the awesomest of all the awesomes though.

    And my problem with the episode is that I just wasn't... I dunno.. moved or anything by it? It was kinda forgettable imo. I kinda wish E1 had have been the finale cause it woulda been a hell of a way to go out and the ending of that episode is just truly perfect, with the music and everything.
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  • Avatar of fatfreeoreos

    fatfreeoreos

    [69]Feb 1, 2010
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    I agree with you Doug, that the reset button is far less contrived than the McGuffin on Buffy's finale. I think it's a fairly fitting ending for a show all about identity that everyone gets to be themselves again.
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  • Avatar of tjaman

    tjaman

    [70]Feb 1, 2010
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    buffyTVSrox wrote:
    I swear, people are way too hard to please.


    Or after a decade or two in Stockholm you've conformed so well to the shape of your cell that now anything Joss does is brilliant and perfect and why won't people just see that? Please, Joss, oh yes, please GOD yes just abuse me some more!

    And if you can't see how the perfectly good buildup to the Boyd plot-twist blowing up RossumCorp and then the next episode is screaming zombies and road warriors and the Waltons in "Epitaph Two" might be a little jarring for viewers who've honest to God seen all 25 of the 25 episodes they aired on the teevee isn't a little hostile I just don't know how else to demonstrate it.

    Oh, yes I do. Clare?

    It makes you feel like you're in a noisy little dark room, naked and ashamed, and there are things in the dark that need to hurt you because you're bad ... little pinching things that go in your ears and crawl on the inside of your skull. And you know that if the noise and the crawling would stop that you could remember how to get out. But you never, ever will.

    Let's get crazy.

    *turns on Epitaph Two.
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  • Avatar of buffyTVSrox

    buffyTVSrox

    [71]Feb 1, 2010
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    tjaman wrote:
    buffyTVSrox wrote:
    I swear, people are way too hard to please.


    Or after a decade or two in Stockholm you've conformed so well to the shape of your cell that now anything Joss does is brilliant and perfect and why won't people just see that? Please, Joss, oh yes, please GOD yes just abuse me some more!


    I love how reviewers all seem to assume that if you like something they didn't, it must be because you're a mindless drone of the creator's. They're a lot like conspiracy theorists that way.
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    tjaman

    [72]Feb 1, 2010
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    Not at all. It's just that there's a pretty well documented Cult of Joss out there and I don't dispute the charismatic draw. The man's a genius. That doesn't make every choice he makes the best of all possible choices and I refuse to give him this one, sorry. You do claim to love things that I suspect you don't, actually.
    Edited on 02/01/2010 3:42pm
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  • Avatar of Sagerian

    Sagerian

    [73]Feb 1, 2010
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    Dollhouse was the first Whedon show I've ever seen and I loved it. I don't think it's right to assume that only Browncoats watched it.
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  • Avatar of tjaman

    tjaman

    [74]Feb 1, 2010
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    Erm, I've seen all the televised Buffies and Angels, all the Fireflies and the film, and Dr.Horrible and his Singalong Bolliog, and 96 percent of "Dollhouse." I didn't IMAGINE you had to be a Browncoat to enjoy Dollhouse or Epitaph Two.

    Look, is it just my OPINION that I felt it wasn't so much a finale as a mistake that is putting me in the crosshairs here? Does everyone have to love everything He does to post here?

    Or does someone seriously believe that I'd have been charmed down to the floor by Eppy2 had I but watched Eppy1, my reaction is therefore insufficiently informed, actually wrong and I've in fact committed some sort of faux pas in reacting to it as I have?
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    fatfreeoreos

    [75]Feb 1, 2010
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    Was I completely satisfied with E2 as a series finale? Not really. Did I think it was a good episode that wrapped up some things? Yeah. Did I think it could have been better? Oh yes. But I'm not gonna complain too much.
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    fatfreeoreos

    [76]Feb 1, 2010
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    Teej, I think you have a valid opinion. It's all good.
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    historylover20

    [77]Feb 1, 2010
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    Sagerian wrote:
    Dollhouse was the first Whedon show I've ever seen and I loved it. I don't think it's right to assume that only Browncoats watched it.

    Sagerian, I highly recommend both Dr. Horrible's Sing A-Long Blog and Firefly. I think you might enjoy them. These two are my favorite Whedon creations.

    Kat

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  • Avatar of Sagerian

    Sagerian

    [78]Feb 1, 2010
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    tjaman, not having a go at you in the slightest mate, I'm just trying to understand people's opinions and in return give mine.

    In a nutshell, Epitaph one SHOULD have been televised before E2, it's ridiculous that it wasn't as it now appears there are a tonne of people who haven't seen it. It makes a massive difference to the finale. I watched it right before E2 and it not only made E2 make some sense but some previous episodes as well. I don't know if there was a reason it wasn't aired in front of E2 as a 2 hour special on the telly, but it's a major oversight.

    Am I satisfised with sub-par just because it's Joss? No.. I think the first 5 episodes of Dollhouse aren't very interesting at all.

    Am I satisfied with the finale? Overall, yes. There's only so much they could fit into the thought-pocolypse episode, there was resolution of the major conflict and a clear ending to the series. Having said that (and this is in another thread anyway), there's a bunch of stuff I wanted to know regarding at the very least Boyd and Alpha.

    I'm hopeful the stuff I still want to know is included on a DVD extra somewhere..

    historylover20 wrote:


    Sagerian wrote:
    Dollhouse was the first Whedon show I've ever seen and I loved it. I don't think it's right to assume that only Browncoats watched it.


    Sagerian, I highly recommend both Dr. Horrible's Sing A-Long Blog and Firefly. I think you might enjoy them. These two are my favorite Whedon creations.

    Kat

    Hey Kat,

    Believe me I've gone back and watched them both and much love to them. I'm actually wearing my "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal" t-shirt right now.

    Edited on 02/01/2010 4:06pm
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  • Avatar of tjaman

    tjaman

    [79]Feb 1, 2010
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    Fair enough and I'm enjoying the convo. I think it's sad that it was canceled, and season two has been generally awesome. But ultimately there's only so many of us who think so and FOX isn't a cable channel and this show wasn't free, so ... see you all at the premiere of the next cancelled production. *waves
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  • Avatar of historylover20

    historylover20

    [80]Feb 1, 2010
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    historylover20 wrote:


    Sagerian wrote:
    Dollhouse was the first Whedon show I've ever seen and I loved it. I don't think it's right to assume that only Browncoats watched it.


    Sagerian, I highly recommend both Dr. Horrible's Sing A-Long Blog and Firefly. I think you might enjoy them. These two are my favorite Whedon creations.

    Kat

    Hey Kat,

    Believe me I've gone back and watched them both and much love to them. I'm actually wearing my "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal" t-shirt right now. [/QUOTE]

    Hee.

    Kat

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